Johnathan Ross: A nice post today. As one of the unfortunates who had to live through the NEP, allow me to try and expand a bit on why Albertans in particular are wary of Federal interference in Alberta’s constitutionally-protected resource base.
First, others here have said “they remember stories of suicides.” I don’t remember stories: I remember actual suicides. I knew people who lost their homes (some sold them for $1.00, others simply walked away), I knew couples that declared personal bankruptcy and whose marriages dissolved, and I remember standing in an unemployment line at the Edmonton Northwest UI office, as well as spending the better part of the next year looking for work. I never found any; instead, I went and applied for student loans and went back to post-secondary education (it was either that or starve). What I remember most is that none of the above tragedies were necessitated by some fundamental aspect of the existing economic milieu — they were all precipitated by the divine fiat of an arrogant, vainglorious fool of a Prime Minister with an astonishingly weak understanding of economics and the limits of government intervention. It’s little wonder that there are people out west who would like nothing better than the chance to urinate on PET’s final resting place.
I also remember the blinding speed with which the damage was done — from the announcement to the commencement of the meltdown of Alberta’s economy was only a matter of a few weeks. For some people, unemployment was almost instantaneous — I knew individuals who were terminated by the end of the week of the announcement, and I heard about others who were fired the very next day. Not that it helped their erstwhile employers survive; they too soon went under.
The NEP, for all the damage it did, is not the central issue, however. For many Albertans, the NEP simply represented the truth of the statement “The best guide to future behaviour is past behaviour.” This is almost infallible in areas like the psychology of marketing, and it’s a pretty good guide to other areas of life, too. The NEP represented the latest (and to date, the most profound and successful) attempt to economically rape the residents of Alberta for the benefit of Central Canada. In essence, people killed themselves because Trudeau wanted to deliver gasoline and heating oil to the residents of Ontario and Quebec for a few measly cents less per litre.
If they get the chance, what would the Liberals do next? “The best guide to future behaviour is past behaviour.” Unfortunately, this is a pretty good guide for how Albertans are likely to respond to another NEP-style meddling. Contrary to popular perceptions in Central Canada, most Albertans (and I include myself, a self-declared “reluctant separatist” in this) see themselves as more magnanimous and more patriotic than Centralers, and thus more willing to allow the Feds to interfere if it’s either “good for Canada” or if fighting the Feds would cause undue hardship and suffering for other Canadians, even those we perceive as being profoundly ungrateful for the massive (and per capita, massively disproportionate) economic contributions we’ve made to Confederation.
I have no idea whether this attitude of deference on the part of Albertans is changing, but I do know that we have long memories, and there’s an entire generation of people in Alberta who have much more power and sophistication than a quarter of a century ago (age and experience is actually good for something!). NEP II, in any form whatsoever, would be unlikely to pass muster in the same way that the original ultimately did.
And if you love Canada, that’s not a good thing.
Good thing Italian and Japanese Canadians don’t carry a grudge like many Albertans.
Hell, they forgave the federal government for slapping them in concentration camps faster than Albertans stopped carping about a failed three-decade old program.
“Good thing Italian and Japanese Canadians don’t carry a grudge like many Albertans.”
What is with you liberal whack jobs? Always trying to deflect the issue. Let me type slower, maybe you’ll get it. This is about Turner, not italians or japanese.
This is about Ontario and Quebec directly screwing over Alberta and the west. Not about various small self interest groups whining about what happened 60 years ago.
Never again will the west allow Ontario to do this to us; Steal from us and line the pockets of Ontario.
Frank, you are a clueless Liberal. Back to your hole.
enough
The Japanese that I know in Lethbridge and Taber are happy with the situation they found themselves in. They prospered far more farming than they did fishing, but they did miss the left coast real estate boom.
Good thing Italian and Japanese Canadians don’t carry a grudge like many Albertans.
Your right Frank, one was for survival of the free world and one was to save 5 cents a litre. Nice analogy. Bait and switch.
Back to the topic….Alberta (and might as well throw in Sask, BC) + NEPII = Alberta Separation.
Quebec’s power is clean because they flood thousands of hectares of pristine land and because they are French so they are excluded.
The following is exerpted from a 2003-04-28 aricle by David Jones, political minister counsellor at the U.S. Embassy in Ottawa from 1992-96, in The Hill Times (a publication that follows parliamentary news).
“From a U.S. perspective, one puzzles over the durability of Canadian unity in the West, and more specifically its attraction for Alberta. A Canadian political maxim has emphasized the patriotic commitment of Western Canadians to Canada, but it appears to be more based in residual sentiment of history than in 21st century logic. Just what is in it for Alberta? What does “Canada” supply that Alberta does not already have or could not supply for itself?
“Federalist Albertans insist that they need to better communicate the needs and more importantly the wishes of the West. They seek a Canada with political, economic, and cultural equality for all through effective representation and communication. For them the reasons for remaining in the Canadian Confederation are the same reasons that were presented for joining Confederation: transportation infrastructure; a larger polity; defence; and social programs — the everyday goings on that we so often forget.
“But to be specific, Albertan taxpayers deliver far more to Ottawa than they receive: their funds go as support payments for many other Canadian provinces. In contrast to Ontario, their visibility in the federal government and among the governing Liberals is minimal. The issues with the most resonance in Alberta: ratification of the Kyoto Accord; the gun registry expenses; increased private health care; are ignored or decided against Albertan preferences. For example, west of Manitoba cementing the “French fact” does not get one per cent of the attention that it receives in Ottawa.
“And this is the way it will always be. As long as the Canadian political structure provides only for “rep by pop,” the West would have to have population levels equivalent to Ontario and Quebec to modify the current socio-economic agenda. If, as some Liberals have tongue-in-cheek suggested, Alberta should elect more Liberals, it would still be meaningless. Alberta’s delegation could be 100 per cent Liberals — and still its interests would take a back seat to those of Ontario and Quebec.
“In contrast to Quebec, Alberta is debt free. Its economy is booming and unemployment is minimal. Alberta is flush with natural resources and has a guaranteed market for them. It has a well-educated electorate and sophisticated political leadership. With no coast line, it has even less need for an independent defence capability than does the rest of Canada (stand on guard against Montana, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and the Northwest Territories?).
“In Ralph Klein, Ottawa has the most Canada-centric premier Alberta is ever likely to elect. And Ottawa treats him as if he is some inebriated oaf with oil stained jeans. If he suggests that there are concerns among some Albertans about their status in Canada, he gets a snotty lecture from Intergovernmental Minister Stéphane Dion — so condescending in tone that even Premier Klein responded that he wasn’t going to be hectored by a junior minister in Ottawa who henceforth should communicate with his provincial equivalent. And, if Premier Klein writes a letter to U.S. Ambassador Paul Cellucci to express sympathy with and support for the coalition effort in Iraq, he gets a slap down lecture from Deputy Prime Minister John Manley over federal primacy in foreign relations (and leaves one wondering why Ottawa had nothing to say about Premier Landry’s vigorous rejection of Canadian participation in Iraq). And commentators appear surprised that the “firewall” concept for Alberta is getting a second look?
“Western Canadians have spent a political generation saying, “The West wants in.” It is no closer to being “in” than the Glacial Ice Fields are to being a tropical resort. For those who thought that April 14 meant that Canada was out of the separatist woods, it may just have entered a grassy glade in the midst of the forest.”
/End Quote
Before last year’s election of the Conservative Party of Canada, a Western Standard poll found that almost half of Albertans thought that we should at least consider independance. Over the last year that sentiment has fallen about ten percent. The feeling on the street is, I think, that we want to give Mr. Harper room for one last chance to change the direction of Canada’s ship of state. And if it doesn’t work this time, I think things could go critical here.
On 2002-09-30, then Premier Klein said “If you ask Albertans now if they want to leave, they would say no. But don’t push us too hard.” If Canada continues to act as if they are our pimp and Alberta is their kept whore, I know that I will, for the first time in fifty years, be actively campaigning to put this broken country out of its misery.
Great read Vitruvius, and I couldn’t agree more. I have a hard time understanding how the rest of Canada can expect Alberta to not only keep funding Canadian socialism but to increase our funding of their Euro trash desires. I think we are getting very close to turning off the spigot all together whether that entails separation or not.
Albertan’s will Walk. And I will be campaigning to ensure it happens. NEP “NEVER AGAIN>”
I will also never forget those dark days. So many of my friends, young, skilled, hardworking and energetic people, simply left for other countries which valued their skills much more than Canada. They were welcomed in Holland, the US, much of South America, Australia, and Asia, and a lot of them have stayed there. I miss them, but understand.
I find much irony in the constant anti-american diatribe we hear so much, when there has been nothing in my lifetime as destructive as our own federal government.
Early Borat Dion
“In Ralph Klein, Ottawa has the most Canada-centric premier Alberta is ever likely to elect. And Ottawa treats him as if he is some inebriated oaf with oil stained jeans. If he suggests that there are concerns among some Albertans about their status in Canada, he gets a snotty lecture from Intergovernmental Minister Stéphane Dion — so condescending in tone that even Premier Klein responded
“Albertan’s will Walk. And I will be campaigning to ensure it happens. NEP “NEVER AGAIN>”
And not only that, one might be surprised at how many “Easterners” have moved to Alberta to support the eventual departure of Alberta from Eastern Canada.
It is not the same game any longer and SD and his cohorts will need to tread very carefully indeed.
The late Charles Lynch had memories in re the thing called Trudeau.
Lynch’s memoirs are classics; his “A Funny Way to Run a Country” is hilarious.
Lynch was with Trudeau on his “epic three-week tour of the Far East in 1983”. Lynch said that Trudeau just wanted to get out of the country. The unemployment rate was 12% “and the economy was going to the pits”.
Lynch and the boys made up a song:
“In the fleshpots of Bankok,
We drank whiskey by the crock,
While he worked his bleeding ass off,
Selling wheat around the clock!” …-
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/005314.html
As long as Canada shuns the democratic republic model (two parliamentary houses, one based on population–giving the West proportionate representation) “The best guide to future behaviour is past behaviour” and past will repeat itself over and over.
Good night and good luck.
As a liberal and a Liberal, I’ve always opposed the NEP and programs like it. It is a too much of an unnecessary skewering of the market. It certainly didn’t do all of the damage that people like Garth Wood claim it did – just look at the entire economy of Alberta at the time and that of surrounding provinces and states – but that is not to say that the NEP was not a horrible idea from the start on principle as well as a disaster economically.
However, one thing I have never quite understood is why Albertans leave themselves blameless on the NEP. Maybe I misunderstand how the specific technicalities of how the NEP came to be, but my understanding of the origins of NEP are that the federal government and Alberta signed an agreement with, among other things, a set price on on oil. Price goes down and there is a built in windfall for Alberta. Price goes up, and it did, and there is a loss.
We can argue that governments should not be gambling with our resources and economies in this way, and I would agree, but it takes two parties to reach an agreement. The legal history of Canada is riddled with Supreme Court cases brought by provinces against the feds and winning so you can’t even claim that Alberta had no choice but to sign on to the NEP.
Perhaps someone with a bit more knowledge can explain to me how, a quarter of a century later, a bad economic deal that Alberta agreed to is my fault as an Ontarian who was 12 years old when Trudeau crushed Clark.
Ted
Living in Ontario I didn’t feel the direct impact of the NEP but I sure did feel Trudeau’s 18% interest rates and wage and price controls!!!!!
Amen : He is in the ground.
This is Liberal election strategy and little else. They don’t, and never will, care about gaining seats outside of Ontario & Quebec. They are simply looking to win back what they have lost in those regions.
If they are successful in exploiting regional differences, they will win the election. Hopefully, there is a counterpunch from the Tories in the works that does not alienate the base and builds bridges in the east.
Here’s another thing to consider. Even twenty-five years ago, Alberta was much more dependent on Canada that it now is. Since then we have become an independent technological powerhouse. Since then, global finance has made us independent of Bay Street. Since then, the Internet has made us independent of Canada Post. Since then, our trading partners have moved from Atlantic to Pacific.
There are currently nine direct flights a day from Calgary to Houston. In the Leduc/Edmonton area we have the world’s second-largest collection of highly skilled petrochemical engineers. Our products and services are now used in the patch and in production facilities around the world. Yesterday morning I was in a conference call with the largest engineering services company in Australia — they’re moving to using my company’s software nationwide. We no longer need Canada in order to be able to keep doing that.
Over the last 40 years, during which time Canada has had Quebecers as prime ministers for all but 30 months, Albertans have suffered a net loss to the Canadian treasury of $167 billion dollars (2004 figures), and Quebec has extorted a net gain of $201 billion dollars. This means that each and every man, woman, and child of Alberta would have about $100,000 more cash today (net, after tax), if only either Alberta or Quebec had not been in Canada during that time.
Quebecers are, they keep telling us, a great people, they have great culture, great cities, the Saint Lawrence Seaway, massive hydroelectric resources, and proximity to a massive market. Why can’t Quebec pay its own bills? Are they spending too much, or earning too little? Are they greedy, or incompetent?
Alberta has 5×10^9 barrels of conventional oil and 175×10^9 barrels of heavy oil recoverable with today’s technology. Sources estimate that we could be pumping up to 2.2×10^6 barrels per day by 2025 (compared to 7×10^5 today). Even at the higher rate, we’ll still be selling oil for 218 more years, our hard-to-get oil will be more and more valuable as competition from the easy-to-get stuff peters out, and we share a border with the most valuable customer in the world.
Now, if someone can just explain to me any benefits that accrue to Albertans from being part of Canada, then I’ll be able to do a cost-benefit analysis. All I need to do is find something worth 18 trillion dollars or so.
Talk is cheap Albertans!! Take Action. Join the Separation Party of Alberta.
A liberal NEP II won’t just kill jobs in Alberta, Holland said the gas and oil industry..all the gas and oil industry.
Whether its located in Alberta or on the east coast won’t matter, and as it will be based on any type of refining activity that should also be good for a few thou pink slips in the industrial heartland (read SW Ont).
That and the increase in taxes to buy all those emmission indulgences that don’t reduce the emmissions.
Ted,
Hope this sheds some light into that deep dark Liberal rat hole of yours.
PREMIER FIRES BACK
After months of exchanging words as loudly as possible with the feds, Peter Lougheed realized actions really do speak louder.
Faced with the Trudeau government’s National Energy Program, the former Alberta premier laid out a plan of action.
In a 27-minute province-wide radio and television address just two days after the NEP was announced, a visibly angry Lougheed outlined his intention to cut Alberta’s oil production to 85% of capacity over a nine-month period.
The cuts were to be introduced in three stages at three-month intervals and, when completed, would halt production by 180,000 barrels a day — the equivalent of 10% of Canadian consumption.
The strategy was expected to cost Ottawa millions of dollars a day, as the federal government sought to make up the difference with imported oil.
“It was an attack on Alberta, so there was no way other than for me to go on province-wide television and explain to our citizens what had happened and how damaging it was and how we would fight back and work our way through,” Lougheed told the Sun, of the famed broadcast, in which he expressed his concern Albertans were being treated like “second-class citizens” in their own country.
“It was extremely dramatic for us to take the position that we’re reducing the amount of essential commodity oil to the rest of Canada … I think if we hadn’t been that dramatic and that strong, we wouldn’t have made the settlement that we had to make.”
But the plan didn’t produce immediate results.
After he laid out his strategy of production cuts, months went by with no meaningful progress between the province and the feds.
When March 1, 1981 rolled around, there was still no progress, so Lougheed implemented the first 60,000 barrel-a-day cutback.
The federal government responded with a 75-cent per barrel levy to cover the increased cost of importing crude.
More months went by and on June 1 the second cutback came into effect.
The stalemate dragged on three more months.
It wasn’t until the deadline for the Sept. 1 cutback loomed that the two sides were able to negotiate a deal and it was on that date they announced their energy accord.
The five-year deal signed by Trudeau and Lougheed ended the cutbacks and enshrined a series of price increases that were closer to world oil prices.
But the agreement did little to stop the Liberal government from being trounced by Brian Mulroney’s Conservatives in 1984, nor did it save Alberta’s economy from collapsing oil prices.
• • • • •
HOW DID IT HURT?
It’s estimated the National Energy Program cost Alberta $100 billion and as many as 200,000 job losses. Here’s a look at some of the economic turmoil that occurred after the NEP was implemented:
• Alberta’s unemployment rate of 3.9% from 1979 to 1981 nearly doubled to 7.7% in 1982 and climbed to 11% in 1983, according to Statistics Canada.
• Housing starts in Calgary went from about 15,000 in 1980 to approximately 10,000 in 1981. In 1982, that figure was cut in half and in 1983 housing starts were less than 2,000.
• 1981 western Canadian industry stats, compared to 1980 figures:
— Well completions, down 24%
— Rigs available, down 19%
— Active rigs, down 33%
— Land sales, down 46%
— Crude and synthetic oil production, down 10%
• Major projects shelved due to the NEP:
— $12-billion Cold Lake heavy-oil project.
—$13-billion Alsands project.
— Heavy oil upgrader in Saskatchewan.
— Alaska Highway pipeline.
• After one year of the NEP, the Canadian Association of Oilwell Drilling Contractors said the value of equipment that left Western provinces to work in the U.S. exceeded $1 billion. Over that time, 189 drilling rigs and 161 service rigs had to be shut down due to a lack of work and 175 drilling rigs, along with 78 service rigs, left Canada. Job losses in the oilwell drilling industry totalled 8,000.
• By 1982, the CPA blamed the National Energy Program for 15,000 job losses and a 22% decline in drilling activity.
• According to a 1982 report by the federal government’s Petroleum Monitoring Agency, oil industry after-tax profits dropped 34% from $4.6 billion in 1980 to $3 billion in 1981. Nearly $1.3 billion of that decline in industry net income resulted from a 44% drop in profits from operations in exploration, development and production.
• A Canadian Petroleum Association survey, released in 1982, showed the oil industry’s tax payments jumped 88.6% in 1981, mainly due to new taxes under the NEP. The report also found a 7.8% drop in exploration and capital expenditures and money invested in the search for new oil and gas deposits fell 12%.
• In April 1982, a provincial government sale of exploration rights netted just $5.8 million, down from the $19.4 million collected at the same sale in 1981.
I remember that era. Many central Canadians justified it because “central Canada helped build Alberta”.
Actually, they didn’t much. When I came to Calgary in 1979, almost all of the big oil companies were American. The few large Canadian firms succeeded despite, not because of, central Canada. The Canadian banks were incredibly tight-fisted when in came to backing Canadian oil firms. Too risky, I guess.
If some people in the Liberal party think that the Alberta oil industry is going to be federally controlled the way it was during the NEP, then they are caught in a Trudeau-era time warp. Alberta’s all grown up now and it ain’t gonna happen.
boy. all that money would sure be nice if we just kept it in western canada instead of funding socialism in Quebec. Western Canada could become a true economic powerhouse if we didn’t have quebec dragging us down.
I think it would work out to around an extra 4000 bucks for every man, woman and child in Alberta if we were on our own. Not to mention all the freedoms we would get back if we had our own republic.
No more CBC, no more french on the cereal boxes, no more expensive gun registration scams, no more convoluted income tax laws. Damn, sounds pretty good to me. Are there any downsides that I am missing?? Could someone please point out a downside to me other than sentimental reasons.
Let me add an Ontario perspective of how stooooopid the NEP was.
1) Blowback into the Ontario Steel Industry causing unemployment
2) Blowback into the Banking industry, centred largely in Ontario
3) And the idea of a made in Canada Oil Price just slowed down the transition of Ontario industry to more productive methods…essentially delaying adjustment and making longer and making Ontario industry less productive.
It didnt do anyone any good except ultimately the federal government coffers when it privatized PetroCanada….even then not sure how the math works out.
I know the Ontario government purchase of Petrofina ended up as a loss.
It would be a huge mistake. Everyone knows it and thats why the Liberals are spinning furiously trying to bury it and make it go away, Holland wasnt speaking for the party is my guess. Which of course only raises the issue of how much control does Dion have of his party.
Election now please! This Liberals will blow apart like an overwound clock….Conservative majority with significant gains by the green party at the expense of the NDP…..
Yes Ted, you didnt’t feel the impact of the NEP. Well thousands of people did. Ask the ones who lost a loved one through suicide, ask those who lost all they had and who lost their families.As a professed Lieberal you just cannot seem to see that they totally destroyed a province and caused deaths of people. That is the arrogance of the Lieberal position. The reason Alberta is in the position it is now is not just the price of oil. It is because we as a people were determined to get out of debt and we bit the bullet and did it. Oh, the unions squealed long and loud but thank God we had a Premier who held tough against them. If Quebec would get off the teat of social programs they too could be a have province. I for one am sick and fed up with always sending our money to a province that is lazy and has no desire to be self-sufficient. I too will be campaigning long and hard to get the west out of Canada.
Nice reference to war internees. Which Prime Minister actually put those Canadians behind barbed wire? King, that’s right, one of Canada’s Conservative PMs. Oh, wait a minute, that’s not right . . . he was a LIBERAL!!!
Nobody says WAR MEASURES ACT quite like a Liberal!
Maybe Harper should privatize all Eastern manufacturing sectors so that they can benefit the rest of Canada, rather than be so selfish with all that money.
See TED the difference between a Liberal and a Conservative is that Conservatives work to earn money while the Libs just look for better ways to take it from the people that earn it.
Ted:
I was an adult living in Calgary when the NEP was brought in. I recall Peter Lougheed being furious about it; I don’t recall that the Alberta government agreed in any way, and I certainly don’t recall any agreement being signed (you may be thinking of the Ottawa Valley agreement of decades before).
Of the 11 houses on my street, the occupants of 7 of them lost their jobs within a matter of a few months, some almost immediately. The job losses caused a huge upsurge in houses being placed on the market, with corresponding plummenting re-sale values. That resulted in many homes being reduced to values much less than the mortgages registered against them (I had a friend with a home “worth” $110K with a mortgage against it of $130K).
The peculiarities of Alberta’s property laws restricted a lender to enforcing their security to the mortgaged residence only, the mortgagor was not obligated to pay the residual balance between the mortgage loan and the monies received through foreclosure. That allowed people to simply walk away from their houses, which caused an even steeper decline in resale prices. The number of foreclosues rose to unbelievable levels; each daily edition of the Calgary Herald contained between 25 and 30 pages of judicial notices of sale of homes.
The numbers of drilling rigs leaving Alberta actually caused traffic backups at the US border; TV news showed huge lineups of trucks waiting to leave.
Now granted, the high interest rates in the early ’80s didn’t help matters much, but the NEP was an absolute disaster for Alberta and many, many people were directly affected by it.
‘Je me souvien’ a thing or two my own self.
Johnboy:
“Could someone please point out a downside to me other than sentimental reasons.”
Well for one, just think of the job losses to those apparently employed to ensure that the french side of cereal boxes ALWAYS faces outward on the shelves….or this that just my supermarket? 🙂
I was there when the NEP hit. Thankfully, I wasn’t in the oil business or any other part of the active economy. I was however close to making a house deal but stopped at the right time. I remember going back east (okay, to Ontario) at the time and getting the third degree from relatives about the blue-eyed sheik in Alberta and how dare he threaten Canada by charging something close to the world price of crude that they were importing on the east coast. They also kept on mentioning about all that cod that the maritimes sent to save starving farmers in the dirty thirties. Said relatives have never seen a cod that didn’t have Highliner written across the package but it didn’t matter any. The Us vs Them lines were firmly up. Turdeau could have had everyone drinking purple koolaid in those days.
Back then, oil was about everything so it affected (sp?) the province hard but now there is more diversity, as in high tech, to help cushion any federal blow and more economic independance to be willing to go it alone should Ottawa ever threaten again.
Ted,
Let me begin by saying I wish you would return to blogging, I found your site and your comments elsewhere to be among the least partisan and insightful on the Cdn. political scene.
Now for us Albertans,you in Ontario get lambasted, for one simple reason, you continue to elect these self-centered narcissitic buffoons because “we have always voted Liberal”. I relaize that it is an unfair generalization but that is the view from out West.
I don’t think that Garth Wood did overdramatize the situation. One of the aspects of NEP that gets overlooked is something callled the Petroleum Gas Revenue Tax (PGRT). The PGRT was an 8% tax on revenues, no deductions whatsoever. So after Ottawa gets their 8% there was significantly less (read:nothing) to pay employees, drilling rigs etc.. So Mr. Holland’s OPUS about any legislative impact about provincial resources will evoke bitter resentment.
It is clear from many other posters, that you cannot forgive until you forget and we clearly have not yet forgotten.
Ken
My point is that some of you guys are still bitching about a failed federal program worse than others who got just one generation earlier tossed in jail because of their race.
It’s pathetic.
You live in one of the most prosperous places in the world, and I hope you understand why hearing you folks constantly talk about being hard-done by makes people on the outside want to puke.
Alberta is an economic, political and sociological success story determined to keep talking like a loser.
Folks, did you know that Quebec is actively pursuing OIL & GAS:
“… Moreover, since 1990, there has been a resumption of oil and gas exploration in Québec. Over the last decade, nearly $100 million has been spent in the area of exploration. This revival, which is relatively modest compared to exploration activities carried out in provinces with recognized hydrocarbon potential, is attributable in part to the new discoveries made in nearby basins with geological settings similar to those observed in Québec. Examples include discoveries made in the rich basins of Arkoma, Anadarko and Forth Worth in the southern United States…”
http://www.mrnf.gouv.qc.ca/english/energy/gas/gas-activities.jsp
So can we ask why Mr. Dion is focussing on Alberta’s oil and gas, when in his backyard (Quebec) is ramping on oil and gas production. Hmmm, maybe Garth Turner shed some light on the Liberals plan.
Thanks for your ridiculous comments Frank. It’s arrogant Ottawa Imperalists like yourself that will ensure the disintegration of Canada.
“You live in one of the most prosperous places in the world, and I hope you understand why hearing you folks constantly talk about being hard-done by makes people on the outside want to puke.”
So…who’s stopping you, go puke.
one very big problem with the Quebec formations especially south and east of Montreal is the stuff tends to be “cooked” by the intrusions. A lot of the discoveries there were almost pure CO2 and “dat my fren is not so be good for substain ability , the istern pipples will not give up to the grin ‘ouse gazas”
Willy:
Living in Ontario I didn’t feel the direct impact of the NEP but I sure did feel Trudeau’s 18% interest rates and wage and price controls!!!!!
Amen : He is in the ground.
Don’t mean to correct you but I think you meant to say ‘he is in Hell!’ Just the ground is to comforting.
/lived with the NEP and went broke with it but not quite bankrupt. It’s a long haul.
Here’s another tidbit, Quebec is giving tax credits – so tell me why Quebec is asking for “fiscal imbalance” payments and Carbon Trading Market setup in Montreal?
http://www.mrnf.gouv.qc.ca/english/publications/energy/Exploration.pdf
“… Refundable Tax Credit
Making Exploration Easier In order to make it easier to invest in oil and natural gas exploration in Québec, the Government has introduced a refundable tax credit. This credit’s base rate is 20%. This rate is increased to 40% of admissible costs when a company is not operating any oil or natural gas wells.
The refundable tax credit applies to oil and natural gas exploration expenses used to establish the existence of reservoirs.
Eligible Expenses
• Geological, geophysical and geochemical studies
• Drilling and completion of an oil or natural gas well
• Construction of a temporary access road or well site…
Still on the internment thing? 22,000 people in BC of Japanese descent were placed in camps. How many people were there in Alberta in 1982? 2.3 million. 100 times more people were affected. And they were discriminated against simply because of where they lived and worked. So that’s okay then, because it wasn’t ‘racist’, it was only against Western red-necks. They would have spent that money on beer, trucks, and guns anyway, so what’s the big loss?
Alberta keeps talking like somebody who worked hard for their money and has distant relatives coming out of the woodwork demanding a handout ‘for the good of the family’.
Ted as a 12 year old you of course would not have a clue what was happening! As an Ontarian even less of a clue and finally as a product of our Trudeapeated educational system still less. So we don’t blame you for being clueless.And so goes the majority of the population east of Manitoba.
How could you know any better?
However many of us in Western Canada have developed a certain level of contempt for the self centered, self important sort of Easterners you represent! As an adult who now avows support of a political party that represents and embodies everything corrupt and self serving while sustaining it’s control over the nation through the support of people like yourself from the privileged regions of Ontario and Quebec…. a party that makes no apologies for the damage and destruction they are responsible for across the entire nation and society ….and because you do this by choice you should expect what you get!
And by the way the Center of Canada is in Manitoba…Toronto and SW Ontario just think they’re what the rest of the country revolves around! Center of something all right!
Actually, the center of the country is Baker Lake. Yep, THAT Baker Lake!
Just Google “geographic center of Canada”.
geographic centre baker lake.
population centre somewhere in the middle of lake superior.
economic centre likely around the manitoba border with sask. cannot be more than 50 miles from the US border.
perceived centre- the top of the CN tower in Toronto.
centre of attention – quebec.
so Alberta needs to use the constiutionally mandated “Equalization” system to screw the rest of Canada, just like they have been getting screwed.
Here’s how. Equalization is setup so that provincial governments have a similar fiscal means to deliver programs.
So Alberta gets reduces its taxes until they are so low, Alberta becomes a “have-not” province. Everyone is rich because the government has fewer “hands in your pockets”, but the province is officially “poor”
When the legions of swivel servants in Ottawa do the annual calculation and determine Alberta is a Have Not province, the the money has to flow in from Ottawa.
Time to rip off Ottawa for the years of thievery they have inflicted on the West.
“…hearing you folks constantly talk about being hard-done by…”
I don’t hear much talk about “being hard done by” frank – just concern about a repeat of a government policy that deliberately targeted one region for the benefit of another, with devastating impact. Tell you what: after the federal government applies a windfall tax to automobile sales, declares “AutoCan” to be a 25% owner of every automobile plant in the country by legislative fiat (without compensation, by the way), and mandates lower prices on automobiles sold to Canadian buyers (but dissallows exports), then you can scold those Ontarians for their constant talk about being hard done by, ‘kay?
Frank,
People of Alberta, and The West, who went through the last NEP ARE winners…but only now!
WE came back after huge hits, financially, and personally!
WE gutted through it, and have prospered in spite of it!
What you find to be complaining is in fact, a warning, ***about something so deep, that I had not realized was still there***…….to all who will hear, to those of an age too young to remember, those involved now, in anything tied to oil/gas sectors in Western Canada, those that know what it is to cherish the place they share, with people they understand well.
Talk about waking sleeping visceral giants.
It is indeed the case that the attitudes of those eastern Canadians typified by Frank, Doug, and Ted are a non-trivial factor in Albertans’ emotional response to the situation, over and above the rational and logical arguments I have outlined above.
It is not the case that Albertans are unwilling to contribute to the benefit of Canada. It is not the case, pace Fred, that we want rip off Canada. We’re not morally like that. We are generous folks. But we will not have you coming in here and telling us how to run matters that the constitution delegates to us. If you want our benefit, you had better get used to getting it our way, not your way, or soon it will be no way.
The condescending attitude that somehow we just go out into the back forty and miss some varmint we were aimin’ at and up from the ground comes a bubblin’ crude it costing you, and if you’re not careful the price is about to go up significantly. Drive a truck with Alberta plates down east and see how you’re treated. Now compare that to driving said truck in Texas. It’s the Texans who treat you like friends and traditional family.
Tom mentions the notion of “distant relatives coming out of the woodwork demanding a handout for the good of the family”. But it’s worse than that, when we realize that the Canadian “family” that’s trying to tell us what to do is the Montreal organized crime syndicate behind the Liberals.
For fifty years I’ve deferred to my emotional attachment to Canada. But for fifty years Canada has never said, Thank you Alberta, for all the hard work you do under difficult conditions to better us all: We love you. Instead, we are ridiculed and insulted. And now it’s too late; now we won’t believe you even if you do. Like the bully in the schoolyard, you are about to learn that we can now afford to take our ball and go home.
You try pulling an unconstitutional stunt on our domain again and there will be only one question remaining: should we call our new country John Stuart Mill Land or James Clerk Maxwell Land?
Well if we’ve learned one thing from past experience, Ontario & Quebec seem to think we owe them a living.
Liberal anti-americanism has crested; Liberal anti-albertanism is just getting warmed up.
Ted et al. Your implication that Alberta is whining about having to shovel money to Quebec and the rest of Canada is humorous and sad at the same time. We have worked hard for all that we have. Not only have we worked hard but we have an entrepeneurial spirit to get things done WITHOUT government intrusion. We don’t mind helping Canada with the basics but when we start hearing that we are funding Librano money laundering schemes, golf courses in Quebec, billionaire jet companies (in Quebec), artists that hang rabbits from trees, lesbians that sell their breast milk, etc etc. all the while listening to you tell us to quit whining and calling us moronic rednecks… well you’ll have to forgive us if we start thinking that maybe it’s time to kick the kids out of the house and make them go it on their own.
Really…I think it’s for your own good. It’s gonna hurt us more than it;ll hurt you.
Vitruvius, a lot of us in Texas do see you as friends and family.
Only a couple of months ago I was talking with a friend who has worked in the oil industry all over the world. When the subject of the time he spent in Calgary came up, he said, “Oh yeah, they’re just a bunch of cowboys like us.”
Before Harper won the election I was very vocal about statehood for Alberta. Norman Specter once accused me of being some sort of outside agitator promoting secession. LOL. I was just a guy posting my thoughts on the internet.
However, you might be interested to know that while a heated discussion was going on about the possibility of a new relationship between the US and Alberta, I spoke to the office of one of our senators about the issue.
Over several discussions, I got the impression that they would have felt positive about discussing Alberta should anyone wish to talk with them.
In this regard I also was in contact with a friend who used to be the business manager of a Fortune 500 company about the possibility of a leadership role on the American side for lobbying efforts in respect to statehood for Alberta.
I don’t know whether an eventuality like this would come to pass or whether it would be the direction that Alberta would wish to go in, but if the conservatives lose all bets are off. You would discover a lot of Americans doing whatever we could to encourage the process.
Naturally, I hope that Stephen Harper continues to be in an even stronger leadership role and to push a conservative, pro-Canadian-people agenda. However, if this reaches a status that it is simply not possible, then frankly, there are a lot of people who would like to see the fireworks go off on the 4th of July in Calgary.