Humboldt Journal (jpg);
In her acceptance speech [Rev. Brenda] Curtis said some people think the United Church is a front for training New Democrats.
“But I assure you that it’s not. However, I have my suspicions that if Jesus had been a party politician, he would have been a card-carrying New Democrat.”
First things first – would Jesus have been a member of the United Church of Canada?
bernie, 9:34 pm….Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men…..
“Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, but never more than 15% of your gross”
Nelson DeMille – The Gold Coast
Lookout,
can’t give you a thoughtful response to your 08:00 PM post on sin and the UCC because I have had no exposure to that denomination, and sin and redemption bear discussion mainly in a denominational context. No point polluting a partisan political blog with partisan religious matters, but see below.
‘been around the block,
having been called a leftist, socialist, moonbat etc. for several months (7) does give me the idea that I have fallen among right-wingers. And I do use that term as pejoratively as you use the opposite.
What am I talking about when I mention neo-cons and fundamentalism? How about the whole hypocrisy of worshipping the Great God Marketplace while paying lip-service to the Christian God? If there is one message in Christianity, it is to be your brother’s keeper. And the same parable tells you that your brother is whoever happens to need your help at the particular time. That does smack of socialism, doesn’t it, but not the ficticious straw-man “Socialism” you keep on demolishing to prove your political superiority.
There was nothing conservative about JC. He did not defend orthodoxy, he demolished it (healing on the Sabbath, praising the Good Samaritan as opposed to the rabbi who strictly observed the law by not risking defilement in helping a bleeding man on his way to the temple, etc.) He was a Jew who believed that the end of the world was imminent, and he wanted to recall the Hebrew religion from the orthodox formalism it had succumbed to. (What are the odds of him establishing a new religion or church – Christianity – under those circumstances? That was more St. Paul’s doing.)
As I said, socialist possible, right-winger unthinkable.
Any minister who would make a statement like this has a profound lack of understanding of Who and What Jesus really is.
“My Kingdom is not of this world………..”
Taking things further along the tangent, it is clear that the liebral party will deny the truth even when there is overwhelming evidence for it. Blacks _do_ have lower IQ’s than white people and the amount of evidence for this is enormous and readily available for anyone who cares to look for it. The book “The Bell Curve” is a good place to start and in the US, mean black IQ is 85. At the other end of the scale, Ashkenazi Jews have a mean IQ of 120 and I suspect a lot of anti-Semitism arises from this disparity in intellectual ability.
Black IQ’s in the US are actually some of the highest among blacks in the world and when one goes to Africa, average IQ’s are some 10-20 points lower. (See IQ and the Wealth of Nations). This more than anything explains why despite trillions of dollars pumped into that continent have produced absolutely no results. The authors of IQ and the Wealth of Nations propose that one needs a mean national IQ of around 95 to sustain a modern industrial society. Sometimes this IQ disparity can be seen from space as when one looks at Haiti occupying one half of an island and the Dominican republic the other half. Haiti has had the longest period of self-rule of any black country.
The average IQ of Jamaica is given as 72 in IQ and the Wealth of Nations and suddenly the reasons for Toronto’s problems of of Jamaican gangs are obvious, but will never be mentioned in the MSM. After all, if the MSM is unable to clue in on the significance that 100% of the home grown terrorist wannabe’s arrested in Toronto were Muslim, they would be incapable understanding the types of jobs one can get today with an IQ of 72.
Thanks for your little tangential post Mark which gave me the opportunity to make this addendum. Now back to lurking.
Jesus made a whip and chased out the sellers in the temple–He made it clear that He would deal with injustice, and swiftly. To think of the many unborn Canadians destroyed by abortion–how do you think He would deal with this injustice? NDP? Please…they are weak willed simpletons…as John the Baptist said, “His sandals I am unworthy to untie.”
Chasing the money lenders physically from the temple….my best guess is Jesus would align himself with Bush on the WOT. He wasn’t wimpy or amoral enough to be a Dem/Lib.
It’s amusing when socialists envoke Jesus – the same Jesus that they contrive to dismantle in schools, at Christmas, and anywhere they can find him in public places. They want all vestages of our Christian heritage dead. Damn hypocrits.
lookout – 8:37 pm. Why would you even bother responding to Dave M? Dave M is an imaginary person. Have you ever seen or met Dave M? Aha. I thought not. Case closed. Let’s not have any more fairy tale Dave M talk on this site.
Loki,
a comment on IQ before saying my prayers (figuratively) and going to bed –
I do not doubt lower IQ scores for most blacks. But I do insist that we differentiate between native intelligence and accultured intelligence. Every intelligence test has a cultural bias in the questions asked and problems posed, not to mention the language in which it is set. If your social and cultural environment does not expose you to what the test asks, you will get a low score regardless of your race or colour. And now we are approaching a problem whose name we dare not speak: C-L-A-S-S.
and if that aint enough, the ucc also debunks the resurrection story, which is the other ‘bookend’ of the faith, the message of hope and promise and assurance brought to mankind by Christ’s birth, ministry, sacrifice and coming back to life *as foretold* in the OT and plainly stated again by Him just prior to the crucifixion.
NONE of this is found in ucc literature. there is no friggin way He would step into one of THEIR ‘temples’ let alone be a member.
not only that folks, when the millenium period of Christ’s reign gets really revved up, He will overnight show how ALL political stripes can be reconciled by pointing out areas of overlap between and among them.
He has no huhmahn ego to hamper His directives and guidance nor selfish personal-interest agenda nor favours to return.
He will do it. He is the only One who will ever have been able to.
Agitfact says “There was nothing conservative about JC.”
Well actually there was as others have explained. But the point I want to make is that Christianity evolved out of the Old Testament. It evolved again with the Reformation. It continues to evolve.
What doesn’t evolve is Islamic Fascism and the NDP. They are both utopian. They are unrealistic and do not offer hope. The neo-cons have evolved from conservatives who are realistic but not optimistic that Islam can evolve with democracy and capitalism. Neo-cons are optimistic that Muslims can evolve if given a chance and learn how to “render under Caesar .. and render unto God” and essentially separate Mosque and State.
The NDP worships the state. Christians learned not to do that 2000 years ago.
Who told you 20% of the population create the wealth? 20% control the wealth their employees created. Most wealth in Canada is old money put in the hands of people friendly to the crown and government. I think it’s closer to 10% and they are rewarded quite well paying 2% of the taxes. The other 90% pay the taxes that enable this 10% to live the high lifestyle. Most wealth is an accident of birth or luck. Most people on this blog are not in the top 20%. You people are dreamers. As I said before what do you pray for to your god?? “God helps those that help themselves” The only quote you fools know by heart. What about the rest of the bible? You cannot pick and choose what to tell us. The bible is a socialist doctrine.Quote all you want .That’s the only passage that gives you Tories the right to step on the rest of us.The bible was written by men to control men and women but most of it is Socialist and made up. There is no proof that Jesus ever lived except in your bible. It gives false hope to the masses and makes facists like yourselves think they have devine right to push everyone around. Read the book “Animal Farm” if you can read and quit quoting the Bible or any other religious books that you probably can’t understand. I live in the real world not by the teachings of imaginary gods or prophets. The Bible was written by Jews for jews and about jews. It is not the words of any god. It is based on Assyrian writings of Hammurabi and babylonian text. The Jews didn’t invent the 10 Commandments nor did the Chritians. They both plagerized the above civilizations. You people don’t know what you are talking about. No god punishes people. People punish people in the name of god.
ok4ua:
First of all most of this comment is bigoted, so I’ll just address this.
“Jesus was a socialist. Everything he did was very social democratic”
There’s is a difference between really helping someone, actually getting involved in peoples lives and caring for individuals and mindlessly forfieting your money over to the state to decide who and how to help. I love this attitude among “progressives” they think that by making an “X” on a ballot they have somehow done their part to help the less fortunate. Nevermind the fact that government assistance programs are always characterized by gross inefficiency, and little effectiveness.
Jesus said “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” Most people don’t realize that at the time he said this, there was a similar teaching that went something like. “What you do not want others to do to you, do not do to others” Sounds pretty much the smae right? But Jesus took this popular teaching and turned it on its side. He made it active instead of passive; he said it wasn’t just good enough to pass through life not do anything you wouldn’t want done to you, he called people to actively get involved in the lives of their fellow man.
To say Jesus would endorse any political party is ridiculous. Jesus made it a point to stay away from the ruling factions, and rebel groups of his time. He wasn’t interested in forging a political doctrine, he wanted to free souls. Jesus message wasn’t for people of a certain political stripe, it was for everyone, Jew and Gentile.
The first sign of a corrupt religion is when it changes truth to be “modern” The last great saint, Pope John Paul 2, was praised for his demanding that a people be free to express themselves. He was criticised for saying that life is precious and that abortion is the killing of a human being. These are truths and cannot be changed regardless of the times.
Jesus was a radical because he was a back to Moses preacher. Get back to the basics was his message.
The UCC has not learnt this truth and wants to change the truth to suit itself.
A fish rots from the head down.
agitfiction, please get your agit(tating)fact(s) straight: “If there is one message in Christianity, it is to be your brother’s keeper. And the same parable tells you that your brother is whoever happens to need your help at the particular time. That does smack of socialism…”
No, actually, it doesn’t. It smacks of the Christian Church over the millennia. You see, fat tigca, the difference is: Socialism forcibly TAKES takes people’s money and channels it to its pet causes, whereas Christians voluntarily GIVE money to their churches to be used for, exactly as you say, “whoever happens to need…help.”
Socialism seems to specialize in giving help to people who don’t actually need it, but who have been able to “hype” themselves as victims. From my experience, the Christian Churches tend to help those who really need it, and it has nothing to do with “the Great God Marketplace while paying lip-service to the Christian God.”
So, what church do you know that plays lip-service to God (well, that’s the UCC) while really being dedicated to “the Great God Marketplace.”
Wait a minute, I think I know what you’re going to say…
I don’t know any.
ok4ua:
“God helps those that help themselves” The only quote you fools know by heart. What about the rest of the bible? You cannot pick and choose what to tell us. The bible is a socialist doctrine.Quote all you want .That’s the only passage that gives you Tories the right to step on the rest of us.
First of all, you may be shocked to know that “God helps those that help themselves” can be found no where in the Bible.
“The bible is a socialist doctrine.Quote all you want”
Are we supposed to take the word of someone who has clearly not read the Bible that it is a socialist doctrine?
“The bible was written by men to control men and women but most of it is Socialist and made up”
So socialists want to control people? Thanks for clearing that up i wasn’t sure, but on that I’ll take your word.
“There is no proof that Jesus ever lived except in your bible”
There’s no proof that Alexandre the great lived, except for his biography that was writen 400 years after his death, do you think he was a real person?
BTW, “God helps those that help themselves” does not appear in the Bible. It’s bad theology, and I think originated with the Protestant Work Ethic.
God helps those who repent of their sins, and who believe and put their trust in Him.
“Oh taste and see, how gracious the Lord is,
Happy are they who put their trust in Him.”
been around the block…
that’s crazy talk.
He’s imaginary. There’s no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus and Josephus, at the same time, wrote a history of the Jews in which he wrote nothing of Jesus.
Of course, whether it matters if he existed is a different thing.
It certainly seems that the UC is not making the cuts.
Having been an agnostic for a longgg time now – I am interested in knowing just which denominations do make the cuts these days in terms of being acceptable.
What are the predominent denominations in Garth Turner’s riding these days?
To your original question: Impossible: “He cannot deny himself.” II Timothy 2:13b
Maryjane 10:31
It was to professional fishermen that Jesus spoke. It was professional fishermen Jesus called to be his disciples and it was the trade of the professional fisherman that Jesus uses as an illustration for Christian ministry.
Actually, party spirit is one of the “works of the flesh” (Galatians 5:20), so I rather doubt Christ Jesus would be a member of any party, even the CHP (a point, sadly, they miss). From a practical perspective, CS Lewis got it right in his “Meditation on the Third Commandment” (See: God in the Dock).
Without intentionally being provocative, by and large, the Conservatives are the only significant party that thoughtful Christians can even think of supporting (depending on the candidate) at present: the Liberals are wedded (Oh, irony!) to self-enriching power, and the NDP have checked their brains at the door.
As for the political wing of the UCC, sadducees, the lot of them – Jesus effectively (apparently) ignored them then, and we should too. The only mention of his interaction with them is a dipassionate “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29). In contrast, He really cut loose against the pharisees – the “moral majority” of the time. Gives one pause to think, does it not?
Let’s get off of this piddly theological stuff. What would Our Lord drink?
http://tinyurl.com/gh7rw
[Thank you, Kathy Shaidle]
The Bible is a crock. It’s not a accurate history lesson. There is hardly any physical proof for anything in the bible. Have you ever watched the naked archeologist? He tries to find evidence for statements in the bible. He tries. He hasn’t convinced me. As I said before the bible was written by Jews. Jesus was a Jew. That said there is no proof he even lived. That is not biggoted that is true. It is not the word of any god,it is the word of men and women. You people might as well pray to the sun. The bible has some good philosophies in it but no god wrote them. You can quote till you are blue in the face it doesn’t change anything.
What would Jesus drink? He would take one look at this world and climb into a bottle. LOL. Jesus as fiction?: Prove it!
Tacitus wrote:
“To dispel the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and treated with the most extreme punishments, some people, popularly known as Christians, whose disgraceful activities were notorious. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed when Tiberius was Emperor, by order of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. But the deadly cult, though checked for a time, was now breaking out again not only in Judea, the birthplace of this evil, but even throughout Rome, where all the nasty and disgusting ideas from all over the world pour in and find a ready following.”
Annals 15 : 44.
Of course the Roman Empire was a fiction as well. Sarc off.
From what I saw at the defrocking “trial” of the Rev. Kevin Annett, who was guilty of helping make public severe abuse at a residential school, I wouldn’t trust the United Church with my lunch money, let alone my soul (if I should have one)…
“””But I assure you that it’s not. However, I have my suspicions that if Jesus had been a party politician, he would have been a card-carrying New Democrat.”””
uh, folks, I think she left something out:
…and, conversely, if many of the card-carrying New Democrats had lived in biblical times, they would have all claimed to be Jesus. :))
There just might be something about that mixing “religion and politics” thing. I see trying to combine them in a “what if” scenario is driving people here nuts.
First of all, what you believe in makes no difference to me, unless of course you want to lop off my head or make me see the light. Secondly, like everything else in life, the definition of liberal, progressive, conservative and the like, when relating to political parties is ever changing. Sir john A was a Liberal-conservative, robert borden was a conservative and then an unionist, Meighan was a national liberal and conservative party member. These are all really just labels. It is what the party stands for today that matters today.
Oh yeah, God bless Canada, eh.
More and more we seem to be in a time when it is very important to take a stand and to make it known. The Muslim terrorists are doing what nothing else could – the Christians are being divided into two camps that will eventually lead us into a separation not seen since the Protestant Reformation. We don’t need a Martin Luther for this reformation – it is a grassroots movement not tied to a denomination.
The agnostics and athiests are more warmly welcomed by Jesus I am sure than the heretics of all denominations.
The UCC began the slide in the 60s and will soon sink into oblivion. Unfortunately, the congregations that believe in the inherency of the Bible will be left homeless which is why (and the only reason) many haven’t made the break. They don’t want to lose the physical building that once housed their worship and communion that was so meaniangful to them.
There is nothing sadder than standing with a small congregation made up almost entirely of seniors and hear them singing from the new hymnal. It’s dead, deader, deadest. The Holy Spirit has departed and they don’t even notice.
Jesus is very much political. However, when he returns to rule the world, it going to be “His way!” This will result in peace and security.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8 KJV
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. Joel 2:32 NIV
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Hebrews 2:3-4 KJV
Don’t wait for 6 strong men to take you to church
“the agnostics and atheists are more warmly welcomed by Jesus than the heretics…” …of the religious left … yes provided the atheists vote conservative and don’t worship at the Temple of the UN and the EU … ;>)
Reformed Judeo-Christianity is important to conservative capitalists because as noted by Shakespeare, the Jewish Merchant of Venice could lend money and charge interest, the Catholic Church had not sufficiently evolved at that point – it still had usury laws. Thus the Protestant Reformation allowed the Anglosphere to lead the way on capitalism. The Reformation also influenced the implementation of the separation of church and state as suggested by Jesus centuries earlier.
But Marxism and Islam don’t separate their ideologies from the state – they are one and the same. They champion the collective over individual responsibility. Those ideologies can work in tribal economies where there are small populations but not in a densely populated globally connected industrial economy. The communists in China have learned this and introduced capitalism which will lead to democracy. Canada needs to smarten up or we’ll still be toying with our “Turd way” as China zooms past us.
Reformed Judeo-Christianity brings a system of ethics – outside the government. It treats people that need help not as clients of the state (a growth industry) but simply as humans deserving of charity. The most advanced economy in the world – the USA – is Christian based and has the most charitable giving.
I think we should backtest the assumption. Jesus was known as a healer. Would he have advocated universal socialized medicine that creates wait times that spans months? I doubt it because he’d be too busy replicating the miracle he performed on Lazarus.
Beyond that…why would he join a party that is inherently anti-semetic?
ok4ua – Your posts are mean spirited and display a serious lack of understanding. Your insulting comments about believing Christians are unjustified and unwelcome.
FYI, Christians, who also pay the exorbitant taxes that other Canadians do, also give far more $$, time and talent–volunteering–than their non observant peers.
I’ve done some research. (Google Charitable Giving in Canada.)
Although our “top donors” only give about $350 (on average) per year, the “2004 Canada Survey of Giving, Volunteering and Participating” shows that 48% of those who attend weekly religious services are in the “top donor” category, while only 16% of non religious types are in that category.
Also, in an article “The Generosity Gap” from The Fraser Forum, an analysis of charitable giving, based on hard data from the 2001 tax returns, showed that Quebec, one of the most socialist and least religious provinces in Canada, was near the bottom of charitable givings: only 22.6% of Quebecers gave an average of $473. On the other hand, in Alberta, probably the most C(c)onservative and religious province in Canada, 25.1% gave an average of $1 294.
Interesting, eh, ok4ua?
How about a comparison with the uber (in your opinion, I’ll bet)-religious and more conservative USA? The LOWEST ranking state gave nearly two times what Albertans gave: $2 240. The highest ranking state gave a whopping $7 917!
The gap can partly be explained by Canada’s exorbitant, SOCIALIST tax rates: Canadians have fewer after-tax $$ to give. (And only socialists think the government can do more good with our tax $$ than we can do ourselves with our own $$. ok4ua, are socialists not aware of exorbitant government waste, patronage, and thievery? Or are socialists just deluded?)
Given these facts, ok, it would be interesting to compare your tax returns with those of the Christians on this thread. It’s likely that a comparison would show that most Christians here are in the “top donor” category, and give far more than the average. As you probably think that “giving at the office”, e.g., paying exorbitant taxes is a great idea and all that’s required of a good socialist, I’d imagine you’re probably in the 16% group.
This is a rhetorical exercise. But think about it. And whatever your particular answer, the FACT that Christians are among the most generous givers in Canada AND the USA, especially in more religiously observant and conservative parts of the country, puts the lie to your uncharitable sneering.
Your pot shots and condescension to a group of people who clearly don’t deserve it are not only offensive and unjustified, but reflect very poorly on your intelligence and integrity.
Smarten up, eh.
Posted by: Dave M. at August 18, 2006 12:31 AM “There’s no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus”. And the exact same fact applies to the non-existent Dave M!
“and Josephus, at the same time, wrote a history of the Jews in which he wrote nothing of Jesus.”
Not true. Some of his records are believed to be later self-serving Christian extrapolations (although that cannot be proven), but, the records of Josephus do contain mention of Jesus.
I can’t believe I’m arguing with a non-existent person.
And we’re down to the visceral stage once again!
My last contribution is a citation from an LTTE in to-day’s Ottawa Citizen. A Joan MacKay writes in defence of education vice job-training, and includes this money quote:
“Education provides the tools one needs to think, to assess, and to make decisions based not on prejudice, hearsay, or media-predigested ‘facts,’ but on knowledge.”
Perhaps we need less religion and more education, especially in the blogosphere.
agitfact, this quote is pure fiction if we’re talking about education, aka, PROPAGANDA. Here. In Canada. I’m not making this up: “Education provides the tools one needs to think, to assess, and to make decisions based not on prejudice, hearsay, or media-predigested ‘facts,’ but on knowledge.”
First of all, Canadian public schools provide very little of any of the above goods. Secondly, re spiritual knowledge, only that based on New Age, Native or other non Christian sources is permitted in public schools: As penny pointed out ‘way back, Jesus and Christianity have been frozen out, with the explicit knowledge and complicity of the mainline Protestant denominations, including the United–I always think UnTIED–Church.
Although He loves each UCC member individually, why would Jesus want to be mixed up with a largely secular group, masquerading as a church?
‘Funny you should make this observation, agitfact: “Perhaps we need less religion and more education, especially in the blogosphere.” ‘Lost your glasses?
Good G*d, man, that’s about all we ever get anymore, anywhere: “more education.” Look at the AIDS Circu…uh, I mean, Conference.
I’m not sure we could get much “less religion” in either the blogosphere or in Canada. This thread is an anomoly in the blogosphere (hats off to Kate).
What I love about the odd bits of religion that manage to surface in the blogosphere is that non-believing socialists, who every time show their ignorance, deep lack of historical knowledge, mean-spiritness and bigotry towards believers, out themselves every time.
POSTED… it’s gotten so bad thse days that [THE UCC prays] “to whom it may concern.”
It used to be said that the UCC was the NDP at prayer… now it appears to be simply the NDP.
I’ve seen – and cannot remember where – reference to a town that claims to have a letter from Christ. Naturally, there’s some doubt to this claim. I have to paraphrase the contents that ran something like this: “Thank you for your inquiry about our movement, and the invitation to address your community. Unfortunately, I would be unable to attend personally, but we would be pleased to send one of my associates. The fee will be….”
No doubt in my mind.
I have no idea what Jesus would do (never having met the man.) I do know what I would do if I were Jesus: I’d lock the gates to heaven, barricade myself on the inside and tell everyone here on earth to go F*** yourselves, you’re not getting in!
Richard Ball….Any mentions of Jesus in the records of Josephus were added in the Middle Ages and were long ago descredited.
Jesus is alive today and posting at this (SDA) blog as maz2. All sermon and no dialogue. Tha must make him a dipper.
Religions exist only in peoples minds, neurological synapse, nothing more than that.
The tip off is that when something is shrouded in mystery it’s usually a con job. Like all those fuzzy UFO pictures. If it really existed there would be hard conclusive evidence.
Dave M:
Actually that’s not entirly true. Josephus, on two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one “James” by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was “the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ.” F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul’s description of James in Galatians 1:19 as “the Lord’s brother.” And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that “few scholars have questioned” that Josephus actually penned this passage.
As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the “Testimonium Flavianum,” the relevant portion declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.
Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D. Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.
For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, “if indeed one ought to call him a man,” is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as “the so-called” Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus’ resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!
But even if we disregard the questionable parts of this passage, we are still left with a good deal of corroborating information about the biblical Jesus. We read that he was a wise man who performed surprising feats. And although He was crucified under Pilate, His followers continued their discipleship and became known as Christians. When we combine these statements with Josephus’ later reference to Jesus as “the so-called Christ,” a rather detailed picture emerges which harmonizes quite well with the Biblical record.
As to the frequent comment that Jesus never even existed. Is there more proof that Mohammed or Buddha existed? Do we doubt these historic figures? The biggest problem with this line of reasoning is this: If Jesus never existed, then you must be willing to accept that he has a more profound effect on humanity and the world than any other person in the history of mankind. For me its hard to believe that that is the case.
Well put BATB, I thought it was only me that noticed that the non-believers, i.e. athiests, agnostics, communists and such are much more likely to try and shoot down other people’s beliefs than anyone else (besides the Islamofacists or whatever they call themselves).
I still say believe (or not) whatever you want as long as you don’t shove it down my throat. Somehow, I don’t see _________(insert appropriate deity here) will be at the pearly gates saying ” Okay, Catholics line up here, you Jews right after that, Hindos please clean up after your cows. Next in line… don’t push everyone, there is plenty of clouds and harps to go around”.
Bottom line is that if you live your life as a decent and honourable person, you will get whatever rewards you deserve, now and in the hereafter.
… and the guy in the rear was a Methodist*. …-
9/11 book rankles Presbyterian faith
Posted by Presbyterian Reporter
THE WASHINGTON TIMES ^ | August 18, 2006 | Julia Duin
A book suggesting the September 11 attacks were engineered by the U.S. government is raising hackles among the faithful because its publisher is an agency of the Presbyterian Church (USA), the largest of several Presbyterian denominations. The book has attracted volumes of criticism, boycott threats and attempted clarifications by various church officials. The book represents the latest conflict within a denomination that in June voted that local congregations could decide to ordain homosexual clergy and that the Trinity, described for centuries as “Father, Son and Holy Ghost,” could also be called “Mother, Child and Womb.” Yesterday the book, listed under…
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1685896/posts
* Johnny Cash
Consider the Trudeau/Liberal leagcy that has left us in the “extreme political correctness” mode where, in fact, minority rule of Canada today is the norm. The RC religion was and still is a huge part of this group of politicians and their backers. Other denominations have been and still are a significant part of the Liberal party who brought this about.
This does not mean I’m going to cast dispersions on all those who are RC or who are members of other religious groups. I’m not terribly concerned about any denomination but I do draw the line at radical Islam (or what ever the “politically correct” term is).
What I care about is the politics/laws that rule this country and the Liberal/NDP way doesn’t cut it for me.
Hezbollah is a banned organization in Canada and it is going to take all of us to keep this under control – thanks to our legislated political correctness. So to those who profess to be the only “true bleievers” with a monopoly on morals and ethics, don’t be to hasty to throw us agnostics/athiests out of the mix.
A little more research on things that the MSM is not talking about is warranted and tends to put things in persepctive.
Like Dearborn, Michigan where about 35% of the population is not just Muslim but apparently radical Muslim – and I’m one who believes there is a difference between these two groups in Canada.
Apparently there have been a couple of very recent marches in Dearborn where 10,000 to perhaps 15,000 have been flying the flag of Hezbollah. Google on The Inalienable Right and scroll to “Americans” for Hezbollah. (I’m not techie enough to set up a link).
the bible is a wealth of lessons in life; economic common sense, sociology, philosphy, medicine, law, and yes religion. and history, unless you deny the existence of the roman empire.
a lot of what the bible contains can be shown to be very plausible in the absence of verifable proof the authors lacking, you know, video cameras!
tomax7 has a document I uploaded showing how the earth could be formed in a day. it is vastly superior to the ‘4,000,000,000 yr dust cloud’ nonsense foisted on the young. radioactive decay is insufficient to explain why most of the earth is still 2,000C molten rock for instance. my theory covers it beautifully.
ergo, that line in the Genesis record as far as Im concerned is true. take it from there.
and p.s., if you havent read the book cover to cover at least once then you are required to abstain from comment.
RobertJ
I’ll be commenting on what I please, thank you.