If you click on the video clip at 7:55 mark -. there is a story about those arrested
“He says the Saudis have flooded Canada with free Qur’ans, laced with jihadist commentary.
“In the back of these Qur’ans that are being published in Saudi Arabia, you have basically essays on the need for offensive jihad and the legitimacy of offensive jihad and things like that. Very alarming stuff,” he said.
Amiruddin said many mainstream Muslim organizations in Canada are really part of the problem, standing by as extremist propaganda spreads in the mosques.
He cites the Al-Rahman centre in Mississauga, Ont., which he links to the Al-Maghrib Institute, which runs a popular educational website. It’s nominally run out of Ottawa, but Amiruddin says it’s really a Saudi operation.”
The CBC page referred to is here. As an aside – this is pretty funny – a courtroom artists rendition showing the young offenders from the Broad Strata Gang first presumably drawn – then their “identies” concealed with black boxes.
Rick Salutin has a full page article in the Globe, June 10, “The way the wind still blows” (p.F6, full text not online).
In it he essentially denies the significance of religion in motivating “homegrown” terrorists and compares them to the FLQ and the Weathermen of the late 60s and 70s in the US. It’s all about idealistic, youthful “rage against injustice”, you see. Sigh.
In a fit of truly mad and anachronistic political correctness he renames the Weathermen the “Weather people”. Must we now refer to the Americans who rebelled against the British at Lexington and Concord, Massachusetts, in 1775 as the “Minute people”?
A good article in the Ottawa Citizen by Robert Sibley that counter-balances Mr Salutin’s inclusive view: “Rethinking multiculturalism: How does a country respond to people who consider many of its key values anathema? It’s a question Canada must answer”.
Mark
Ottawa
Kate: Sorry if I’m a bit dim-witted but do I gather correctly that the info about the Saudi Korans had been REMOVED from the CBC site?
Has anyone else noticed the name of the mosque that the Brampton 17 were indoctrinated in? Salaheddin. I am sure if confronted they would try to explain it away but that sounds suspiciously like the name of the Kurdish Sultan who killed many Christians during the Crusades. Seeing as the flag of England (cross of St. George) is being banned all over because it offends Muslims (reminds them of the Crusader symbol) should they not be forced to change the name of their Mosque? Oh sorry, for a second I was deluded into thinking that Socialism was not hypocritical in how it applied things that anglo-Saxon Christians find offensive. My bad.
Aren’t you glad the Americans invaded the country where no 9/11 terrorists lived and avoided the country where 15 of the 19 were from? The more you know about Saudi Arabia the more you wonder what American leadership(?) is thinking. Economics trumps safety. Economics trumps everything, as far as I can tell.
Taqiyya and kitman: The role of Deception in Islamic terrorism.
“Taqiyya and kitman or ‘holy hypocrisy’ …” is used by Imam Aly Hindy, Elmasary, Liberal MP Algebra, the Harkats, the Kadars, Mohammed, Allah, and is approved/used by Islam. +
Tradecraft. Persona. Deception. Disinformation. Cover: Western operational terms and techniques. But, Islamic terrorists have their own terms: taqiyya (pronounced tark-e-ya) : precautionary dissimulation or deception and keeping one’s convictions secret and a synonymous term, kitman: mental reservation and dissimulation or concealment of malevolent intentions…
Taqiyya and kitman or ‘holy hypocrisy’ has been diffused throughout Arabic culture for over fourteen hundred years since it was developed by Shiites as a means of defence and concealment of beliefs against Sunni unbelievers. As the Prophet said: ‘he who keeps secrets shall soon attain his objectives.’
The skilful use of taqiyya and kitman was often a matter of life and death against enemies; it is also a matter of life and death to many contemporary Islamic terrorists. As so often in the history of Islam, a theological doctrine became operational.
During the Spanish inquisition, Sunni Moriscos attended mass and returned home to wash their hands of the ‘holy water’. In operational terms, taqiyya and kitman allowed the ‘mujahadeen ’ to assume whatever identity was necessary to fulfill their mission; they had doctrinal and theological and later jurisprudential sanction to pretend to be Jews or Christians to gain access to Christian and Jewish targets: ‘the mujahadeen can take the shape of the enemy’.
Taqiyya is common to both Shiite and Sunni Muslim discourse and has significant implications for understanding Islamic fundamentalism and terrorist operations. The theory and practice of counter terrorism would be counter productive, indeed pointless, and even harmful, without reference to taqiyya and kitman and the crucial role of deception ranging from Islamic jurisprudence to Al Qaeda training manuals, which carry detailed instructions on the use of deception by terrorists in Western target countries.
According to Christian ethics lying is a sin; In Islamic jurisprudence and theology, the use of taqiyya against the unbelievers is regarded as a virtue and a religious duty. … more
http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/Feature%20articles/02-12-2002.asp
Patton,
Re. “the Kurdish Sultan who killed many Christians during the Crusades.” Even Wikipedia will tell you the opposite, not to mention more scholarly sources.
Hey Steve d. If we had to do everything by what you could tell, we would all be dhimmis already. Why don’t you go back into your left wing script books and see if you can find something that does not have mono-causal explanations, like everything else in the real world. Oh sorry, I forgot moon-bats do not operate in the real world where the metal hits the meat.
hey agitfact…I can assure you that I am aware that Salaheddin has been interpreted historically in a very positive light. Also, I can assure you that historical interpretation is another form of propaganda and is a product of subjectivity. In the context of the religious wars of the middle ages, “positive” behaviour would not match up with modern standards of the same. It is doubtless that he was responsible for the slaughter of many Christians, his gentlemany behaviour to King Richard of England, notwithstanding. The attack of “great man” history is simply a fashionable tool that modern historians use in order to make a name for themselves. My critique was intended simply draw attention to the hypocrisy of the St. George flag being banned and nobody mentioning this Mosque name. However, I thank you for allowing me to critique academic historians for their one sided treatment of Muslim rulers in the Crusades.
PS. During his rise to the top, Salaheddin also slaughtered countless Muslims. If all you bring to the table is Wikipedia, I suggest you not try and debate history with me little man.
“Hey Steve d. If we had to do everything by what you could tell, we would all be dhimmis already. Why don’t you go back into your left wing script books and see if you can find something that does not have mono-causal explanations, like everything else in the real world. Oh sorry, I forgot moon-bats do not operate in the real world where the metal hits the meat.”
Why don’t you actually critique his statement, instead of spewing nonsense.
The problem that we in the west are refusing to acknowledge is that Islam is less a religion than a sociopolitical system. We, and they, hide its problems by defining it as a religion and we in the west, with our multiculturalism and political correctness, reject debate about religion.
Islam is, in particular, a tribal rather than civic sociopolitical system. This means that its membership is closed, based around kinship ties and obligations, hostile to other tribes who are defined as infidels, hostile to individualism, focused on group solidarity. It adamantly rejects change, it is focused on its mythic origins which are defined as ‘pure’ and change is understood to befoul this original purity.
As a tribal system, its axioms are faith-based, and geared to promote stability. This rigid behaviour, it is assumed, will maintain purity and ward off danger.
A civic society rejects original purity; its members are citizens not by virtue of kinship in a genetic tribe but by agreeing to a ‘constitutional contract’ of social behaviour. This constitution is not mythic in origin, is not pure but is amendable.
Tribalism is disastrous for an industrial world, because it rejects change, innovation, questions, debate, dissent, exploration. Islam hasn’t had a scientific thought since its origin and operates by ‘piggybacking’ on western innovation.
The problem that the West and Muslims have to deal with, is that Islam is refusing to modernize and reform its axioms. It is trying to maintain a belief and behaviour that is dysfunctional in our modern world. It is trying to ‘save itself’ by destroying anything that questions its, that hints that it has problems and so on.
Muslims have to realize that their religion must be reformed. By them. They have to speak out; they have to object to this extremism and its ‘original purity’ ideals.
And the West has to realize that it cannot sit back and say and do nothing during this ‘phase of violent rejection’, for this Islamic phase is seeking to maintain its old axioms by destroying the West.
It isn’t about religion. It’s about a sociopolitical mode of life that is, like fascism and communism, destructive.
LGF Presents: Muslim “Taqiyya and kitman or ‘holy hypocrisy’…
MCB Leader: British Should Try Arranged Marriages
Dr. Muhammad Abdul Bari, newly elected leader of the “moderate” Muslim Council of Britain, says the UK should adopt Muslim ways—including arranged marriages. (Hat tip: CAGE: news.)
Dr Bari, a 52-year-old science teacher and author of several books on Islam in Britain, became arguably the most influential Muslim voice in the country after taking over from Sir Iqbal Sacranie this week. Every five minutes he takes calls: from the media, Downing Street, the police, mosques. They all want to know his response to the protests against the shooting.
His aim, he says, will be to encourage Britain to adopt more Muslim ways, as well as to encourage Muslims to be good British citizens. He thinks that non-Muslim Britons would benefit from having arranged marriages and espousing stronger family values; they would also do well to stop drinking and gambling and to follow many of the teachings of Islam.
But, first, he must calm the tensions between Muslims and the rest of Britain. “Muslims are frightened now,” he says. “Many are still poor, under-educated and unemployed and they are finding life increasingly difficult. It is a nightmare, particularly for the young.”
“There has been a 300 per cent rise in stop-and-search of the Asian community and a 600 per cent rise in race-hate crimes against Muslims. The young are rebelling. They become de-motivated; some turn to drugs, others become more religious.”
Notice: he says frightened, oppressed, rebellious young Muslims may become “more religious,” then in the next sentence denies any connection between becoming more religious and becoming an extremist. Even though he raised the connection himself.
An increased interest in religion does not, however, turn them into extremists and terrorists, he says. “Our religion teaches us to be good neighbours and friends. Any group or religion has one or two people who are bad. But now we are all seen as the enemy.”
“7/7 was committed by idiots and the devout were against the man who dressed up as a suicide bomber to protest at those cartoons. These people are not true Muslims. Overwhelmingly, our community is made up of sane, sensible street cleaners, teachers, nurses and bus drivers. This idea that we are all fanatics is ludicrous.”
But would he not agree that many in Britain see Muslim fundamentalism as the biggest threat of the next few years?
“Extremism is a threat, but on all sides: Christian, Muslim, Jewish,” he says. “It is objectionable when people talk about Islamic terrorists; those who terrorise people are not being Islamic in any way.” …
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/
Hey kmm,
if you check my posts, you will see that when somebody has something worth critiquing I take the time to do so. My point is that teve d. does not have an argument. I guess that is too sophisticated for you “progressive’ types to understand.
Patton: As Bostom points out in his Legacy of Jihad, western textbooks simply stated: Islam EXPANDED during the 7th and 8th centuries.
And of course, the west was BAD in WW2 (Jap internment, Hiroshima).
steve d: Unfortunately Dems and Repubs are utterly corrupted by the Saudis who as I understand it put many retired pols on the payroll.
Think about this: one of the central themes of conservatism is limited government. With MUCH smaller government there would be MUCH less corruption. Your point has some validity but it’s not a partisan Bush Lied People Died issue.
It would be impossible to make a case that one of the two major US political parties was more corrupt than the other.
OTOH, government is corrupt because the citizens of a tax and re-distribute majority-tyranny democracy are corrupt.
Kudos Me No Dhimmi…yes left wing historians have been extremely one-sided in their agenda of criticisms of the west and their fawning over the “religion of peace.”
yes kudos Me No Dhimmi indeed for actually producing an argument, instead of just saying he’s wrong therefore I don’t have to make an argument
Kate,
If you don’t get out the cockroach spray, pretty soon the humans will leave and you’ll have nothing but vermin left. (left, get it?)
If you don’t like trolls, stop “debating” them.
I can guarantee you it’s a better method of removing them than anything I can offer up.
Actually, steve d, you are right.
Economics does trump everything. That’s because, without an economy that feeds, houses, secures its population, a society goes – whoosh – into chaotic oblivion. You can’t ignore the millions of people in your nation; you have to provide for them. And if you ignore the economy?
You can see examples in Haiti, in Africa, which have all ignored the economic infrastructure and focused on ideology. Ideology without that economic base, is not merely empty; it’s disastrous. And so, we have massive famines in Africa, murderous gangs, tribes killing other tribes, no ability to feed themselves, no ability to stop the slaughter.
That means that without a strong economic infrastructure, there’s no such thing as safety. I’m sure you’ve seen what has happened in the states in C. America, in Africa and elsewhere that have lost an economic infrastructure. What rapidly emerges is ‘thug-economics’ where people rob, murder, loot, set up criminal turfs, kidnap for money, steal ..on and on and on.
So, in order to defeat fascism – in this case Islamofascism – you can’t destroy your own national economy. That would throw you right into the hands of the fascists!!! I’m sure you realize that, don’t you?
Patton
Like Kate says you can’t debate, it takes thinking, so just berate, it takes far less brain cells.
steve d. – don’t take my comment to mean you’re off the hook. Stay on topic and stop throwing out ad hominem and idiotic one-liners like that – or leave.
According to posts at Little green Footballs over the past two days, Apathy isn’t rampant in just Canada. It’s going on in Great Britian, the States even in New Zealand where a former roomate of one of the 9-11 flyers was taking flying lessons. Apparently this guy also trained with Hani Hanjour in Arizona and was a U.S. qualified pilot. He was allowed into New Zealand on a student’s visa until they changed their mind, deemed him a threat and deported him back to Saudi Arabia. This apparently happened on May 29 and I can find no mention of how they found him out, he was there since February. Apparently Rayed Abdullah was even mentioned in the US Government’s 9-11 Commission Report and he and Hanjour used a flight simulator together on June 23, 2001.
“Abdullah was also leader at the Islamic Cultural Centre in Phoenix where, the FBI says, he “reportedly gave extremist speeches at the mosque”.”
How does a Suadia Arabian Pilot trained in the U.S., with a known terrorist,living with him and named in the 9-11 Commission Report, gain entrance into New Zealand for further training? How many more situations are there like this? Did the world learn nothing from 9-11? What have wannabe terrorists learned? That we are apathetic sheep, asleep at the wheel, and the whole world thinks the are immune to attacks, the U.S. is the target and deservedly so. Meanwhile more pilots are being trained in New Zealand, Canada and probably France and Denmark and Spain and everywhere else the almighty buck and ignorance rules.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=20985_Saudi_Linked_to_9-11_Found_in_NZ_Deported_to_KSA&only
While you’re at LGF, check out the pictures (Fri. June 9) of muslims boys and girls protesting in G.B., calling Tony Blair a Crusader and to go to hell. Oh yes and the same boy holding the same sign also calls ‘British Police Terrorists’. This is contrary to another LGF story yesterday that says there is a ‘Secret UK report: Muslim Police Corrupt) http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=20989_Secret_UK_Report-_Muslim_Police_Corrupt&only
I wonder if calling British Police Terrorists is an insult or a sign of the future?
Brilliant comment from steve d.: “Economics trumps everything, as far as I can tell.”
I guess, steve, that you can live on dewdrops and rainbows and the roadkill you’re lucky enough to scoop off the highway every day or maybe the little critters you’ve foraged for in the forest.
I mean, economics is such an overrated concept these days. Who needs cars, gas, houses, supermarkets, and malls?
ET I agree with your statement, well said. This is the topic that we need to stay very focused on. Might I also add Caledonia, home grown terrorism and police sit back and watch robbery, attacks. What a sad state of affairs our country is in.
Kate
My rule is, If I gets it, I gives it.
This what I got.
Whydon’t you go back into your left wing script books and see if you can find something that does not have mono-causal explanations, like everything else in the real world. Oh sorry, I forgot moon-bats do not operate in the real world where the metal hits the meat.
I think mine was very tame and short in reply don’t you? I don’t mind getting it. That doesn’t bother me. I will reply in kind though.
It seems like a simple concept to me. If your economic policies are allowing the breeding of terrorists, then you should look for ways to change them. This doesn’t mean turn your back on the economy, just make some changes. If these changes mean a weaker economy, then so be it. After all the States are eventually going to have to wean themselves off of Saudi oil. Why not now?
Steve,
So attacking Iraq, a country which defied one U.N. resolution after another, attempted to annex a neighbor and then violated the terms of its ceasefire repeatedly, openly declared the U.S. its enemy and regularily shot at U.S. planes, openly financially supported terrorists and their families, That’s forbidden.
But Americans attacking Saudi Arabia because the terrorists origingally “came from there” that’s OK?
Yeah, I’m sure you would have been fine with that one.
I was very heartened to day to actually see a Canadian Muslim speaking up and addressing the aparent lack of response to terrorists by the western Muslims. Salim Mansur’s column is certainly welcomed.
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Mansur_Salim/2006/06/10/1623710.html
Kate, you are indeed correct in the Do Not Feed the Trolls policy. I’ve noticed that if certain “characters” don’t get a response they try again with something even more outrageous. They are indeed the gnats of the internet.
Well it it is interesting that the “Crusaders” are bringing up Salaheddin. Of course during this time butchery on the battlefield was standard practice on both sides. It is an error to apply modern standards of behaviour to accepted behaviour some 800 years ago.
The extremists in some of their postings within Al Qaeda refer to the west as the “Crusaders”. This may be quaint but the illogic isn’t helpful.
There are some Muslims who are logical as below:
“Al Khawarizmi was a great Muslim mathematician, astronomer and geographer. He is one of the most prominent mathematicians who ever lived. Moreover he was the founder of several branches and basic concepts of mathematics. In the words of Phillip Hitti, Al Khawarizmi’s contribution to mathematics influenced mathematical thought to a greater extent. His work on algebra was outstanding, as he not only initiated the subject in a systematic form but he also developed it to the extent of giving analytical solutions of linear and quadratic equations, which established him as the founder of Algebra. The very name Algebra has been derived from his famous book Al-Jabr wa-al-Muqabilah.
His arithmetic synthesized Greek and Hindu knowledge and also contained his own contribution of fundamental importance to mathematics and science. Thus, he explained the use of zero, a numeral of fundamental importance developed by the Arabs. Similarly, he developed the decimal system so that the overall system of numerals, ‘algorithm’ or ‘algorizm’ is named after him.”
I mean gee, every kid who passes high school is taught “Algebra”; must be some Islamist plot.
There are good and bad in every society. The present tensions result from putting a theological political violent spin on the followng Koranic verse:
“Prepare against them whatever force you are able to muster, and strings of horses, striking fear into the enemy of God and your enemy, and others besides them” [8:60]).
The latter “and others besides them.” is taken as justification for random acts of violence against socio-economic structures of the western world.
What has made the western world successful is the ability to incorporate ideas like algebra and build on them. In short, by inclusively opting to take good ideas from various cultures the western world has built its success.
Fascism, communism and extremist Islamism have taken a politically closed view of society. In short, there is an orthodoxy which permits no tolerance of ideas which conflict with accepted practice. In short, real debate is not encouraged.
It is the refusal to adapt, having the flexibility of mind to adopt outside economic ideas as beneficial. Trying to reestablish the Caliphate is about as useful as trying to reestablish the political control of Christendom harking back a 1000 years. This is a socio economic cul de sac.
Part of what fuels the extremist agenda is the lack of opportunity in ‘Muslim Lands’. While the observation may have some truth in it, the conclusion that violence is the way to solve it is rubbish.
When one considers the vast amount of petro dollars that these same ‘Muslim Lands’ have there is simply no excuse for the self induced political poverty. The ‘Muslim Lands’ should simply be choosing better leaders rather than making a blanket blame the “Crusaders” by association.
Well if the western world it still teaching its kids Algebra some ~1200 years later, what in God’s name is the problem, in accepting some western ideas that help build up society? While there is a great deal of nonsense in the west, the conclusion from the point of view of the terrorist, that everything we do here is bad, is a logical non sequitor. Al Khawarizmi, were he alive, would probably be happy to point this out to them.
kmm
Easier said than done. The foreign policy of the U.S. has long been an extension of their country’s corporate policies. If you interpret what is good to corporate America is good for America, then you can see that ignoring the Saudi reality makes sense. It also makes the Iraq policy make sense. Once Iraq is firmly in control, hopefully before the end of the decade, then they will have a comparable oil resource to the Saudi Arabian one they now use.
Saudi Arabia, may destablize of its own accord or be destabilized before long. America will have two large bases(they are building them now) in Iraq ready to offer their guidance as to how the new Saudi Arabia will unfold. I think that is the plan.
No, I didn’t see the American blueprints for the Middle East but you must know they have long range goals and plans for the region. Some things are obvious. They are not as close to the Saudis as they were. The American bases are being built in Iraq. Interestingly, the Congress just passed at 1.1 billion dollar supplemental bill for Iraq. The Conservative led Congress also removed a previso that said they would not stay in Iraq after the conflict. The Amercians have been paying more attention to other countries in the region like Kuwait and Dubais.
Unless and until Saudi Arabia makes a complete turnaround of its Anti-American policies(spreading hate and money to Fundamentalist Islamic groups) they will continue to feel the freeze-out…until America is ready to encourage regime change.
steve d:
My rule is that was your last warning.
I didn’t ask for your opinion.
Kate why did you use that picture? We know that some of those that the FBI listed as hijackers are still alive?
The FBI says that some used stolen ID’s.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/21/inv.id.theft/
Have any of the people in the picture sued over having their faces splashed all over the world as terrorists?
While there is no doubt the hijackings were the work of al-Qaeda, questions remain about whether some of the hijackers actually were the men the FBI identified. Last year that doubt crept into the highest levels of law enforcement after a series of sensational news reports aired by the BBC, ABC and CNN, along with several British newspapers, cast suspicion on whether the FBI got it right. The reports suggested at least six of the men the FBI claimed were hijackers on the planes were in fact alive. They didn’t survive the crashes, of course, but never boarded the planes.
…hey give steved a break, he does have a factual statement that most of the terrorists are Saudi’s…
…Sorry, just reread the postings and I was referring to steved’s original point about the origin of some of the terrorists, but not his reference to Kate.
Agreed, that was not called for on his part.
Teaxs Canuck:
Yes, the Salim Mansour reading should be required reading for all those who wish to pay attention to the real dynamics at play.
Cheers!
Cheri in your comment high-lighting posts at Little green Footballs over the past two days. There is a statement made by you.
“That we are apathetic sheep, asleep at the wheel, and the whole world thinks the are immune to attacks, the U.S. is the target and deservedly so.”
Would you please clarify this part of the statment ” the U.S. is the target and deservedly so.”
mitch
If we want to be fair then we can’t play favourites. Israel has more UN resolutions against it than any other country. The response has been none. Why? Because America is their protector. Ask any Arab country if that is fair.
Iraq shot at American jets because they were over Iraqi territory. Is that not permitted? The policy of containment, which Condi Rice said was working a year before they invaded, meant that American and British jets would routinely violate Iraqi air space to monitor and test Iraqi radar capabilities. When they found Iraqi radar working they destroyed it. This was stepped up leading up to the invasion.
Every country can defend their air space except Saddam’s Iraq?
Yes, Saddam sent $25,000 to families in Palestine who lost a child to suicide bombing.
You think he was the only Arab with money who supported Palestine?? Every Arab sheik or prince is absolved or ignored for sending money to Palestine but not Saddam. Saddam was being smeared(he is not the only monster out there)because you cannot attack a country cold. You have to ‘prepare’ the people so you give him bad press and step it up big time prior to invasion.
I thought it was Bush who said if you harbour terrorists you are just as guilty as the terrorists. Apparently that only applied to Arab countries that were not cooperating economically with America. There is a lot more going on here than Saddam simply being a bad guy and the Americans intel wasn’t good. No, sir, it is definitely not as simple as most believe.
Sorry, but I do have a problem with the convenient revision of history to suit propaganda.
Might I suggest a source on Salaheddin that was published before bashing Muslims became an ideological and political requirement, and that has never been accused of lack of objectivity or authority?
The Shorter Cambridge Medieval History, Vol I (Cambridge, 1952) p. 531:
“… the real hero of the time, the merciful, chivalrous and upright zealot, Saladin …”
steved – not that kate needs it, but it probably would be in your best interest to offer an apology to Kate.
Besides acting like a gentleman, it would give a bit more credibility to your postings.
N’est pas?
kmm – the economic reliance on oil is NOT breeding terrorists. Weaning the entire world from oil will NOT reduce terrorism. Oil plays a role in terrorism only in enabling the ME to remain tribal by virtue of funding its military dictatorships.
The cause of terrorism is the dysfunctional sociopolitical infrastructures of the Middle East – namely, tribalism.
Yes, Salim Mansur is excellent. Tarek Fatah also wrote an excellent column in the Toronto Star the other day, on the same issue. Muslims have to speak up and ‘take back’ their religion from the extremists.
‘zero’ was, to my understanding, developed by the Hindus. The algebraic numbering system was also developed by the Hindus. But, middling points aside, – very nice post, Hans. The Islamic focus on ‘original purity’ is dysfunctional. Just as the communist focus on ‘future purity’ and the fascist focus on ‘essentialist original purity’. But the Muslims have to make these changes themselves; they have to move themselves out of fascism.
steve d. You are just repeating leftist platitudes. What is ‘corporate policy’? What is American foreign policy? Do you know the difference between a democratic society and a dictatorship? Do you know the difference between a tribal sociopolitical and a civic sociopolitical system?
The US foreign policy is to spread democracy. I think that’s a correct policy. Tribalism is disastrous in our modern industrial world. The ME has been entrenched in tribalism until now, and is at a ‘cusp’ where it is fighting to retain tribalism, yet torn apart by the dysfunctionality of tribalism – and, this stress is both imploding internally, even if constrained by military dictatorships, and exploding into the Western world.
The only sociopolitical mode possible for populations in the multimillions, is democracy. With that size population, you require a dynamic rather than stable economy, one with the capacity for anticipation of changing future events, the capacity to adapt to these changes with minimal stress.
You require a civic rather than tribal population, one that is focused around an agreed-upon constitution – a constitution that is based in current realities and thus, is open to amendment. Tribalism, based around ‘pure original Truths’ won’t work.
You require a population that is intellectually flexible, whose knowledge base is open to questions, debate and change. None of this is possible in a tribal knowledge base.
So, Bush’s foreign policy is exactly right. Spread democracy by taking out dictatorships, allowing the people the freedom to set up their own democracies, and..enabling democracy to spread. There is no other choice.
Et
Yes and yes, I agree that Islam and politics are joined at the hip. Yes we have a clash of ideologies, Islamic fundamentalism and American Capitalist Imperialism.
I would give the religion part a little more emphasis though. The religion of Islam has within it directives for nationhood. So did Christianity, although less so. Remember, it was Constantines adoption of Christianity that led to its explosion as a the religion of the West.
So we have seen this state/religion marriage before. It is a very potent twosome.
This time Islam is lucky enough to be wed to the worlds great superpower. That is what makes it so messy politically, economically and militarily. So it becomes a clash.
The clash becomes pronounced and potent not just because of the difference in world views but also because the Superpowers, first Britain, then America in turn did not see the Middle East as anything but its oil. It paid no heed to politics except that they are cooperative. The politics didn’t have to be just, democratic or nurturing to the idigenous peoples. As a result, the Superpowers cooperated with despots and other corrupt forces as long as they got what they wanted, oil.
Now, because of our singular focus on oil we discover too late that the people long repressed by their governments have turned to Islam as their saviour. The Conservatives won’t like me saying this but, we have only ourselves to blame.
Even now, our response is simplistic barbarism. It only makes matters worse in the long run. We can’t keep shooting forever(and spawning new Jihadists). We have to smarten up and think, take a longer view. We will be living with them and they with us in the end. That much I know for certain.
ET: For greater clarity on Al Khawarizmi :
“In addition to introducing the Indian system of numerals (now generally known as Arabic numerals), he developed at length several arithmetical procedures, including operations on fractions. It was through his work that the system of numerals was first introduced to Arabs and later to Europe, through its translations in European languages. He developed in detail trigonometric tables containing the sine functions, which were probably extrapolated to tangent functions by Maslama. He also perfected the geometric representation of conic sections and developed the calculus of two errors, which practically led him to the concept of differentiation. Al Khawarizmi is also well known for his collaboration in the degree measurements ordered by Ma’amoun al-Rashid that was aimed at measuring of volume and circumference of the earth.”
But back to the matter at hand, Bush’s foreign policy in this instance in repect of spreading democracy is ultimately the correct policy in the long run. This does not mean that they have not experienced reversals or made errors, as Bush and Blair both recently admitted; in respect of making the cowboy statements of ‘Bring it on’ and prison abuses at Abu Graib.
The ‘frozen concepts’ view of the world will not measure up over time. Its like the guy in the US Patent Office suggested in the late 1880s: ‘Everything that needed to be invented has been invented.’
As Thomas Paine once remarked:
“He who would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.”
no, steve d. It is not ‘American capitalist imperialism’. The US is not an imperial nation. OK?
Capitalism is a mode of industrial organization that is far superior to state-run industrial or bureaucratic industrial organization. That’s because it puts intentionality and agency within the hands of the individual rather than the state bureaucracy. That enables flexible and rapid decisions, promotes risk-taking enterprises, and enables multiple choice solutions. None of these are possible in the bureaucratic industrial organization which rejects individual accountability, rejects rapid decision making and rejects multiple options.
Islam and politics are not ‘joined at the hip’. Islam is, itself, less of a religion (dealing with metaphysical processes) and more of a sociopolitical system.
No, it was not Constantine’s adoption of Christianity that led to its ‘explosion in the West’. The ‘explosion’ was due to a variety of factors. One, was the biome of the West, which is the richest in the world, enabling an explosive growth in population. Another, was the 4th century ‘win’ by the Athanasian rather than Arian version of Christianity. Another, is that Christianity is not a tribal religion; it does not base its social axioms on tribal or kin based economic interactions. It’s a religious base that is suitable for large-scale agricultural societies. And, that was what was required in the growing population base of Europe.
What you don’t understand is that as the world population grows, the economy must change to nourish and support that population. It has to, all over the world, become industrial. No choice.
I’ve no idea what you mean by Islam ‘wed to the worlds great superpower’.
The politics of the ME was tribal! Why? Because the economy was rural, a peasant agriculture, and not industrial. A tribal political system WAS nurturing to the domestic population! You don’t move into democracy until your population base increases and your economy moves out of peasant agriculture. I don’t think you understand the relation between the economic mode and the political mode.
Oil wasn’t a factor in the ME until the turn of this century. I’m sure you realize that. And the economy and population base of the ME only changed with WWII. The population base grew in the last two decades, and the population moved from rural to urban in that time period. That’s the beginning of the crisis phase. You don’t have an infrastructure for democracy before that!
No, you are quite wrong. We aren’t the ones to blame. The ones to blame are the ME tribal leaders, who refuse to give up their elite power and move into a democracy. That has nothing to do with us – and the fact that you can’t see that, is due to your personal psychological desire to denigrate the West and the US, and not to any factual reality.
So, you think that freeing Afghanistan from the Taliban is ‘simplistic barbarism’? And freeing Iraq from Saddam Hussein is ‘simplistic barbarism’? There’s little I can say about such ignorant and prejudiced opinions.
The long view, ‘la longue duree’, is the necessity for democracy within populations in the multimillions. And, this is exactly the foreign policy of the US. That’s why it is a correct policy. Democracy will empower the youth in the ME, who are currently without any role in their own country – no economic, no political, no social role – for tribalism rejects their input and sets up one tribe as superior. Won’t work – and that, and that alone, is what has led to the current islamofascism.
“kmm
Easier said than done. The foreign policy of the U.S. has long been an extension of their country’s corporate policies. If you interpret what is good to corporate America is good for America, then you can see that ignoring the Saudi reality makes sense. It also makes the Iraq policy make sense. Once Iraq is firmly in control, hopefully before the end of the decade, then they will have a comparable oil resource to the Saudi Arabian one they now use.”
But then Iraq would likely just turn into what Saudi Arabia is now, don’t you think
“kmm – the economic reliance on oil is NOT breeding terrorists. Weaning the entire world from oil will NOT reduce terrorism. Oil plays a role in terrorism only in enabling the ME to remain tribal by virtue of funding its military dictatorships.”
Sorry if I’m misreading, but isn’t this a contradictory statement. Doesn’t the first line say it doesn’t breed terrorism, then the third line says it does.
Hans: “The ‘frozen concepts’ view of the world will not measure up over time. Its like the guy in the US Patent Office suggested in the late 1880s: ‘Everything that needed to be invented has been invented.'”
…bingo!
Steve says, “Economics trumps everything”
Let’s tie some current events into this.
Bin Laden was offended that US was on Saudi soil.
The US was on Saudi soil because Saddam had a history of trying to invade countries with oil.
Bin Laden gets harbouring and help from the Taliban and does his WTC attack.
The US takes out the Taliban for harbouring Bin Laden.
The US takes out Saddam and the US can then safely(?) remove their troops from Saudi holy soil.
Z- man comes onto the scene in Iraq from Jordan.
Iran builds its Nuke in spite of the kicking and screaming of Ch’Iraq and the demilitarized, solcialist EU.
Afghanistan and Iraq have Iran’s Mullahs squeezed in the middle of their new “threatening” DEMOCRACIES
Let’s just stop there for now.
I will concede, that for all those who say this is:
All about oil
All about economics
All about Islamofascism
All about terrorism
All about replacing tribalism in the ME with democracy
The answers are: yes yes yes yes yes
Now what?
kmm:
Of course it is easier said than done.
If young ME men are constantly disempowered by lack of participation and ownership, then they have nothing to lose.
If you have nothing to lose, it is easier to accept a radicalist interpretation.
Hell Adolf did exactly that within an economically depressed nation of the 1920-30s and mobilized the entire continent.
With the chatter from Ahmahdinejad we are just getting a repeat performance replete with ‘wiping Israel off the map’ and Shehab3M missiles with a range of 1500 km. Hello Werner Von Braun and V2s?
Haven’t we all done this before or are we just completely blind and stupid?
sorry hans, I’m not really sure how this relates to what i’ve posted