A reader passed along this link – Ministers Named from Outside Parliament 1867 to date.
Painful memories are pouring back… we all remember the immediate and highly publicized explosion of outrage, Canadians still seeth over the undemocratic and unprincipled appointments of the unelected Brian Tobin, Pierre Pettigrew, and Stephane Dion to cabinet. The Fortier appointment just rips open that scar, and pours fresh salt on the wounded national psyche.
Breaking – Canadians shocked and worried over Feb 8 announcement from the Prime Ministers Office that future Supreme Court appointments will be subject to a majority vote in Parliament.
Just kidding.
and one Lester B. Pearson
I recall Jean Chretien’s startled ‘deer in the headlights” moments as the Ottawa media cornered him on those appointments, demanding to know where his principles were….
Again with “what’s good for the goose…”?
You can rant and hate it all you like, but as long as the rules allow for this you need to put up with it.
If you want to change the rules then campaign to do so. Whining won’t work.
No one likes queue jumping, but it may not entirely be a bad thing in this case. I don’t like it, but I will wait and see.
We all talked about how smart Harper is … maybe we should cut him some slack until we have more evidence of what kind of PM he turns out to be.
Kate, thanks for posting that link! Did anyone else know that Mulroney’s real first name is Martin? or that Joe Clark’s real first name is Charles?
We could’ve had PM Martin Mulroney or Chuck Clark.
It’s amazing to see how many appointees Mckenzie-King made!
I too believe the criticism over this has been way over the top. However, isn’t at least a part of that criticism justified by the fact that Harper promised to do things differently? Do conservatives really want to point to Jean Chretien as the standard on all issues ethical, for example?
I haven’t seen anyone explain to me why appointing an unelected person to cabinet is either unprincipled or inadvisable.
Perhaps if we opened the doors a bit wider, we’d could actually recruit people who have accomplished something in related fields and who know the issues of their respective portfolios before they come in to write policy.
Exactly, Kate. Sounds a bit like the way things are done in the US. That’s “doing things differently” isn’t it?
Kate, the only problem with your suggestion is that it’s not the way our system works. The US president appoints unelected people to cabinet. As a general course, Canadian prime ministers don’t.
Although it might be justified to address issues of regional representation in this instance, I don’t think it’s something that ought to be engaged in as a matter of routine. Otherwise, what’s the point of electing people to the House of Commons in the first place?
Somthing I Posted at Angry earlier today
This might have been said but I would reiterate that the Prime Minister has every right to appoint whom ever he wants to his cabinet and that he would be obligated to surround himself with the best most capable people willing to do the job. Politicians have no business in government. I would welcome more intelligent unelected capable people with real leadership ability over popularity contest winners any day.
I’m a long time Conservative supporter, and I believe that Harper made a mistake!
I spoke to my friend Derek who lives in DE’s riding.. He’s a Conservative also, but he’s totally pissed that Harper approached, and gave him a cabinet position.
Overall, it clouds his leadership from this point forward. I think all of us have a different opinion.. Not bad.. Just different about Harper’s leadership.
Then what’s the point of electing MPs to Parliament?
What is the point of having elections at all?
Well, let me tell you — the appointment of Francis Cochrane in 1911 still stings.
If it weren’t for him and Borden, Newmarket Ontario would have had a canal! Imagine the economic prosperity that would have bought to the region!
Instead, look what happened. Newmarket, Holland Landing, Keswick — all one giant trailer park today.
We could have been more if it weren’t for these damn appointments!
Bah!
Look at how many appointees went on to become the Prime Minister of canada. Its unbeleivable that this has caused such a uproar. I now feel much better about Mr. Fortiers appointment. As there is a ton of precedent out there. Let him do what he was named to do and if he gets elected fine if not fine also. Emerson should seek a bi-elcetion in the near future though.
interesting list…
No less than 4 men who later became Prime Minister of Canada were appointed to cabinet before being an MP.
Hmmmm. Remember what the last Tory appointment did?
So basically every PM has done this except Turner, Campbell and Martin.
The hypocrisy and the hysteria of the media is breathtaking to say the least.
You would have thought Harper had committed a murder or some other heinous act.
He said he did not like floor crossing but firmly indicated he did not support preventing MPs crossing the floor as it gave too much power to the leader of the party. So what’s unethical about Emerson crossing the floor. Harper asked and he agreed. However, when Liberals poach other MPs to cross the floor it is a big catch for them and they are considered smart politicians. Talk about a double standard in the media.
Fortier is not the first to be appointed to cabinet without a seat. Harper wanted him and Fortier agreed to step down when the next election is called to run for a seat. Harper will have Senators elected as promised.
So the MSM should take a pill and relax.
I am a Harper supporter and see no problem with Emerson crossing the floor.
I was also cool with Fortier, based on historical precedents, until today.
A poster named Lew on Andrew Coyne’s site, which I’ll never visit again after today, pointed me to a quote from Harper on the CPC where he says unelected persons should not be in cabinet.
http://www.conservative.ca/1113/39288/
This made me upset for the first time. I still support him but the first bloom has fallen from the rose, at least for me.
Like it or not, Fortier is in the Senate, and Emerson is an MP. While I feel criticism of Harper is somewhat over the top, people have that right. Harper understands there will be heat. But this indignation is a bit much. What, suddenly the Tories are just as corrupt as the Liberals? C’mon. I believe that this will hurt the Tories if they do become corrupt and/or arrogant. If they go ahead with their program, this will become water under the bridge. Harper didn’t need to appoint either Fortier or Emerson to save his government. In the case of Stronach, saving the government was the SOLE reason for taking her in Cabinet. That was the deal she insisted on to defect. This lady has no expertise or influence whatsoever, except that she has been able to purchase. Facts are facts, though, Emerson and Stronach came across the floor and were given Cabinet seats. There was no point in Emerson coming across as backbencher (Harper wanted his expertise on the international trade file, particularly softwood lumber), and there was no need for Stronach to be in cabinet to secure government support. At least one can argue Harper’s intentions are for the national interest – he wants cabinet input from the Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver, not a cynical attempt to hold onto power. So criticize away, you have the grounds; just try to put the matter in some sort of perspective, rather than the shotgun, they’re hypocrites argument.
Oops…
missed one…
5 Prime Ministers appointed to cabinet before becoming an MP.
Pearson, St Laurent, Bennett, Thompson, Tupper.
Kate,
Fortier is not the issue, Emerson is.
It is impossible to defend Emerson/Harper with straight face, certainly not after having fiercely criticized the Libs and Belinda.
That the Libs did the same thing is hardly a plus.
So why try?
This event has also alienated many many new CPC supporters (incl me), guaranteed.
Let’s hope something will come out of CPC’s clean up government and accountability agenda (which I fully support).
Unfortunately, I have my doubts.
I think Harper made a very sound decision; he brought someone to the cabinet of an urban area that had no representation in the cabinet otherwise. Basically, he has started building bridges and is reaching out … and he is doing that with the deck that he was dealt by the electorate. This makes him, in my opinion, a very courageous Canadian.
With regard to David Emerson, if he deems that he can represent his riding and the rest of BC as a conservative or a liberal or as an independent is his prerogative. He has been given the mandate to represent his riding to the best of his knowledge and ability.
With regard to the bleeding hearts that are devastated by this decision I say grow up boy scouts. Take an online refresher course in grade 12 Social Science and you will find out that this happens in parliamentary systems. Someone mentioned on this site, that Winston Churchill changed sides 2 times. That is in England where the parliamentary system originates and which has been copied around the world.
It is ironic that you have to visit a blog site to find a detailed list of all the political crossings, because you will not find that in the main stream media.
“I haven’t seen anyone explain to me why appointing an unelected person to cabinet is either unprincipled or inadvisable.”
It’s not just the appointing of an unelected person to cabinet that is unprincipled, although each time it has been done there has indeed been criticism from the opposition benches.
The unprincipled part is threefold: (1) Because Harper has himself been very explicit about saying that senators should have an elected mandate from Canadian voters. The quote is still on the Conservative Party website. It’s made worse by the overall and fundamental and longterm advocacy for an elected senate altogether. (2) Fortier saying he didn’t run because, well, he didn’t want to run. Plus, there is no overriding reason to do it. I mean, for Emerson there is at least the industry skills in his background and the fact that he has been part of the softwood negotiations for years. What specific skills/background does one need for Public Works? What specific skills does Fortier bring that countless other elected MPs don’t have?
The inadvisable part is not as significant I think but important nonetheless. While there technically is a Question Period in the senate so Fortier would conceivably be required to be available to answer questions, he is not sitting in the House answering questions during put by the elected representatives of Canada in the opposition benches, and in particular the members who sit on the key committees and are the appropriate critics.
I know you’ve said before that you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one, but you can’t say you haven’t seen anyone explain the critique.
Ted
Cerberus
If Emerson can secure a check for $5B from Bush that will by a lot of Face for Harper at the end of the day.
Fortier is indeed an issue – if you are to listen to the professional chattering classes.
I’ve got Charles Adler on the radio at the moment, still ranting away. He’s fairly new on the airwaves here, but he pretty much threw his credibility out the window when he jumped onto the Carol Jamieson orchestrated “Ditch Harper” campaign a few months ago.
Oh, that and his ridiculous acceptance of Pierre Bourques exaggerated claim of having “7 million readers a month”.
He’s loud, but he’s not the sharpest tack in the box.
Bourque’s page is quite cheesy, IMHO. I don’t know why Adler has such a woody for him. Nealenews is a far better “one stop shop” for quicky news. Bourque’s page seemed extremely anti-Harper yesterday. Almost to the point that it was clear that David Orchard was in charge of content.
Andrew Coyne’s breath-taking hypocrisy is on display in the National Post today in a column of surpassing passive-aggressive nastiness. With fairweather “friends” like him, who needs the Liberal enemy?
Come on, folks: Harper and the CPC have a tenuous hold on government as a minority party. The plan is to build toward a majority at the next election. In the meantime some compromises will have to be made. And, as several people point out above, extra-parliamentary appointments are not uncommon. As for Emerson: 44% of the voters wanted him to represent them in Parliament. He exercised his judgement in accepting Harper’s offer, obviously thinking it best for his constituents. The Liberal party in his riding can presumably disassociate itself from him at any time (their demand for election expenses back appears to be a step that way).
Those who are judging Harper by his first actions, when there are perfectly reasonable explanations for them, are being both unrealistic and overly demanding—and they are playing right into the hands of the Liberals. One would hope this was a result of naivety, but in the case of Andrew Coyne, that’s hard to believe.
Amazing all the hype, but not much over a GG that was a reporter for a government run media organization with no experience what so ever! & for all the pundits over Harper/Stronach I recall that Harper was the coolest of them all, it was the backbencher’s & provincial MPP’s that were making all of the noise. Please correct me if Iam wrong I do not have the exact quotes but didn’t Harper say something along the lines of sorry for the loss & it was her decision?
Hollinm: “The hypocrisy and the hysteria of the media is breathtaking to say the least.
You would have thought Harper had committed a murder or some other heinous act.”
Except that is far from just the media. It’s not even just Liberals and Dippers or their bloggers. It is not even the many furious conservative bloggers (well cataloged over at Babbling Brooks) who are even organizing their own petitions to Harper. CONSERVATIVE MPs are royally pissed off this week.
So whether you think there is a justification to Harper’s odd decisions or not, you can’t claim it’s a partisan, media biased/media hyped issue.
Ted
Cerberus
Emerson Who?
Give Vancouver-Kingsway a chance…a by-election.
“Liberals more popular than Emerson in his riding
Poll done in October found only 25% knew he was their MP.
David Emerson, despite his high-profile national role as British Columbia’s senior federal minister in Ottawa, wasn’t known by most of his Vancouver Kingsway constituents before the 2006 campaign began, according to a poll obtained by The Vancouver Sun.
The Mustel Group survey conducted last October found only one-quarter of respondents could identify Mr. Emerson, widely criticized for abandoning the Liberals on Monday to join Stephen Harper’s Tory Cabinet as a star recruit, as their member of Parliament.”
Mr. Emerson would have a difficult time getting re-elected as a Tory.
He doesn’t even live there…he lives in the posh West End.
every single Senator is appointed and they get to to vote on Bills that affect us.
Now there’s a problem . .
Mr. Emerson would have a difficult time getting re-elected as a Tory.
He doesn’t even live there…he lives in the posh West End.
he used to live in he riding . . was my neighbour
“Please correct me if Iam wrong I do not have the exact quotes but didn’t Harper say something along the lines of sorry for the loss & it was her decision?”
Well – he went pretty light on the “sorry for the loss” part, and he also added that there was no issue of grand principles at play, only personal ambition (on Ms Stronach’s part).
I agree with that assessment – but just because one MP crossing the floor is a matter of personal ambition, it does not mean that every MP crossing the floor is also doing so out of personal ambition. In Mr Emerson’s case, I find the explanation that he thought he could contribute more to the country in Cabinet than in opposition to be credible. Obviously, so did Prime Minister Harper. I am sure Mr Emerson has his fair share of ambition – the distinction between him and Ms Stronach is that she has nothing else.
Bryan: are you seriously comparing the responsibilities of and skills necessary for the Minister of Public Works with the responsibilities of and skills necessary for the Governor General. You are bringing equivocating to an absurd pretzel-twisting level.
Ted
Cerberus
“Mr. Harper has achieved a great deal with these two appointments. He has demoralized his party�s supporters. He has ruined whatever honeymoon he might have had with the press. He has diverted attention from what was otherwise an impressive piece of cabinet-making.
But most of all, he has undermined his own reputation for honesty. A priceless political asset has been devalued, and all for a couple of cabinet seats. Bad politics has driven out good.”
Burned, yet again
Deaner: Harper may have wanted him for his skills/background and for Vancouver votes in the next election, but there is no question in my mind that Emerson, a former CEO, had no interest in serving in the opposition benches. Talk to people who know him: eminently capable and, skill-wise a good add to the cabinet, but very arrogant and full of himself and his own importance and very ambitious. It has nothing to do with his desire to contribute to the country any more or any less than Stronach. Whatever comparisons should not be made between the two, this is not one of those.
Ted
Cerberus
ah, but check your list and compare the date of appointment to how quickly they sought entry into Parliament via an election:
Tobin – 1 month, 10 days
Dion – 2 months
Pettigrew – 2 months
Bouchard – just under 3 months
de Cotret – (senate appointment, call it the Fortier exception)
Juneau – defeated less than 2 months later
Granger – 1 month and 11 days
Asselin – defeated less than a month later
Fleming – 20 days
Smith – less than 2 months
And so on…
Harper just doesn’t seem to have the same respect for the importance of democratically electing the appointees as the majority of his predecessors.
But, by all means, keep harping on how your new PM is acting no differently than his predecessors. Power beats principle everytime, just funny that Harper didn’t even wait a day to prove he is no different than the rest.
You might want to take a good look at that list again and take note that most, maybe even all, of those appointments from outside parliament all ran in an election within 3 months of the appointment. Harper is simply saying Fortier will run in the next one whenever that may be; 3 months, 6 months, a year? Who knows. It would be unprecedented to have him remain in a cabinet position for any length of time without being elected.
And although this never seems to register on your tiny brain I’ll say it again anyways. Because the other guy did it is not a valid counter argument.
David Emerson lives in “the posh West End”???? Have “Fred” and “steve in bc” ever even visited Vancouver? David Emerson lives in the Southlands neighbourhood near S.W. Marine Drive, in the Quadra riding — just a few blocks from Ujjal Dosanjh. His NDP challenger Ian Waddell lives in Kitsilano, more or less within walking distance of the definitely-not-posh West End, which is a heavily-built-up part of the downtown peninsula. As for Vancouver-Kingsway, I’m surprised that as many as 25% were able to identify Emerson as their MP. In the 2004 election, pollsters like Decima gave up trying to sample the Vancouver electorate because so many of the respondents couldn’t speak English. At least half of the residents of Vancouver-Kingsway were born outside Canada, mostly in China and India. Such voters probably made up 75 to 80% of Emerson’s 20,000-odd votes (he received 42% of the total). To borrow the words of another commenter, they probably voted to return a cabinet minister, and they did. I live in the Vancouver area, and I’m happy that Emerson has agreed to join the Harper cabinet. We desperately need infrastructure improvements, and we also need resolution of the softwood lumber mess.
Ted: all Iam saying here is that I believe people are making more out of this, than need be. No one went through the roof when a reporter was appointed again to GG, I have nothing against PM Harper’s appointment’s to cabinet, these were all within his right’s & both men are forminal players in business. Plus the fact with the addition of Emerson it gives hims the breathing space he needed in this minority.
Well, three days into his new government and the usual suspects are pointing out that other appointed cabinet ministers have run in later byelections, and Fortier hasn’t!!!
Is that self parody?
Re Emerson – those poor disgruntled voters in Vancouver were choosing to re-elect Liberals: in other words, a government who hadn’t promised any changes to “the democratic deficit” so in essence, any complaints on that score ring a tad hollow.
Frankly, you know what bothers me far more than this tempest of media hypocrisy and memory relapse, is that Harper allowed the words “Meech Lake” to be associated with his new government. _That’s_ bad optics and completely unecessary. He needs to remove some Mulroneyites from his inner circle and fast.
If the idea of “elected” representation is so utterly sacred in Canada (as opposed to the US), then why is the senate NOT elected?
The only thing sacred seems to be control and without a balance of power (such as they have in the US) anything that tampers with those in control is demonized.
Right, Moonbats?
Since somebody mentioned Charles Adler, and his current hot air over Harper’s appointments, I thought I’d throw this little nugget into the mix too.
Isn’t Charles Adler the same guy who, one week, wrote an article telling everyone Harper will be PM “when pigs fly’ then, on another week, was telling everyone they should give Harper a chance in order to bring down the Liberals?
Let me see. Wouldn’t that be HYPOCRISY? And isn’t that exactly what he’s criticizing Stephen Harper for currently?
I wanted to write a blog post about this, but I couldn’t find the articles in question. One he wrote for the Winnipeg Press, the other for the Winnipeg Sun. Change of papers, change of mind? And this guy is bashing Harper? From his own glass house? And doing a lame job of it in the process? Oh my!
(Harper) went pretty light on the “sorry for the loss” part, and he also added that there was no issue of grand principles at play, only personal ambition (on Ms Stronach’s part).
He’s also in part responsible for her getting the “Minister of Complex Files” tag, I think – when asked if he felt Belinda! was up to the complexities of a Ministerial position, he said he hadn’t noted complexity to be among her strong suits.
Well, three days into his new government and the usual suspects are pointing out that other appointed cabinet ministers have run in later byelections, and Fortier hasn’t!!!
He isn’t going to either.
“Earlier, Mr. Fortier said he would not seek a seat in the House before the next general election even if there is a Montreal vacancy. “My job is to focus on Public Works.””
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060208.wxtories08/BNStory/National/home
As ususal, most people are so used to ranting they forget to sit down and think. Stephen Harper is Brilliant, and far too bright for most people to follow without thinking for a while.
In case most people missed it, there was a motion in the last Commons to require MP’s who cross the floor to resign and stand for by-election. IT WAS DEFEATED – big time. Most of the powers-that-be HATE the idea of accounability.
If the minority government re-intoduced this bill it would have been killed by the opposition without a blink.
NOW! – A “disgruntled” back-bencher will rise and propose this as a private member’s bill(like the last time). With all of the media and public outrage, who here thinks that this bill will be voted in by the majority of MP’s(especially the opposition). Got to show Harper don’t we.
.
Kate,
Cerebus is absolutely correct in his logical conclusion when he states…..
“What specific skills/background does one need for Public Works? What specific skills does Fortier bring that countless other elected MPs don’t have?”
Unelected appointees have no place in Canadian government, especially in such an important position as Minister of Public Works. This is job that can – nay, MUST – only be filled by the most qualified of ELECTED, and thus accountable, members of parliament.
No better example of this is Alfonso Gagliano, who exceeded all expectations of honesty, integrity, and accountability, which was only possible because he was ELECTED in a democratic fashion before being APPOINTED to Public Works. Yes, good ol’ Alfonso Gagliano. Now he was a Public Works Minister to be proud of.
One doesn’t have to look far for examples of extremely qualified and elected people fulfilling their duties as Ministers of important portfolios in nothing but the utmost competence. Jane Stewart comes to mind.
I just shudder to think of how messed up our military’s helicopter situation would be without the dedicated guidance of elected cabinet ministers. (shudder, shudder… break out in cold sweat)
It all reeks of hypocricy, unlike anti-conservatives, who before the election were so adamant that Harper was no different than any other PM, and are now demanding that he should be different.
.
All on that list ran for election within months. It has been indicated that Fortier won’t run until the next general election. This moves sucks, there’s no way to justify it.