PBS talk show host, Tavis Smiley, recently appeared on Bill Maher’s show. An interesting discussion ensued between these two Men of the Left about Cultural Relativism.
Cultural Relativism is one of the prime tenets of Multiculturalism, which is under attack in Europe these days. In a nutshell, belief in it means that you may not criticize or look down upon any other culture. Whether it be the repression of women or female genital mutilation or the execution of homosexuals (for just being gay), an adherent to Cultural Relativism will not criticize any of these things and considers anyone who does a bigot & a racist.
While Bill Maher is most certainly a Man of the Left, he is absolutely not a Cultural Relativist, but Tavis Smiley is, big time. Here’s an outline of Smiley and his views:
Smiley’s positions epitomize what happens when one mixes the tenets of moral and cultural relativism, cultural self-hate, postmodernism, and political correctness. I have often argued that tolerance toward any form of intolerance is self-inflicted barbarism. Bill Maher captured my position quite well on his most recent show when he stated, “When you tolerate intolerance, you’re not really being a liberal.”
Though I could not find a video of this exchange, comedian Adam Carolla obliterates Smiley in this podcast, beginning at 10:30. Language warning!
On a personal note, I must admit that I was not aware of this division of opinion amongst Leftists on this issue. Perhaps it serves as a good litmus test to determine if a person is Centre Left or Far Left. The former is home to the likes of Terry Glavin, Michael Ignatieff, Joe Clark, etc. The latter is home to Jack Layton, everyone in the Green Party, all SDA trolls, etc.
Or it is evidence that Mahar is merely contrarian…literally polically incorrect.
But if your ultimate common goal is the extinction of perhaps 95% of earth’s present “unneeded” and “politically obstructive” population, perhaps the subtle contradictions between various dogmas obscuring that outcome are of little importance.
Make no mistake, I disagree with Maher about 90% of the time and think of him generally as a sick little unhappy troll. But even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.
If you can deal with the swearing in the Carolla podcast, the actual back & forth between Smiley & Maher is fascinating, as is the inane applause for Smiley’s points. I often wonder where shows like that get their audiences from!
In a nutshell, belief in it means that you may not criticize or look down upon any other culture.
You may, however, both criticize and look down upon cultures that respect human rights.
Robert, I like your postings, but please don’t try to convince me that Maher falls into any catagory titled Centre Left.
I have no intention of tolerating the intolerable, tolerating inferior cultural norms is eating Eurabia from the inside out. The absolute tolerance crowd hate Christains but can’t get enough of the silly ME costumes and cultural norms. I wonder if the left could survive living amongst those cultures that treat women like second class citizens?
Jim: Indeed, the criticism of one’s own culture, be it American or Canadian, seems to be a common exception for Leftards. It’s especially hilarious to hear them say such things when they’re sipping a Starbucks latté and criticizing capitalism at the same time!
Carl: Point taken. I struggled with a category for Maher in this context as he clearly is not in the same one as Smiley. Perhaps rather than focusing on Maher, and the many hateful things he has said throughout his career, we can instead think about all the Centre Lefties in our own lives, be they family, friends, or coworkers. They’re good people but misguided.
If a Centre Leftie were asked whether they support Multiculturalism, I think most would say ‘Yes’. But then, if you pointed out that a believer in Multiculturalism must, by definition, never criticize the despicable acts of other cultures, you’d get a quick reverse course from the person. My primary intention with this posting was to point that out.
I think a more accurate distinction is that they are both far-left. But maher is an anarchist whereas smiley is a fascist.
I think that Women’s rights reform in much of the Muslim world while necessary, will follow early democratic reforms just as it did in the western world. Portugal didn’t give women the vote until 1974. Iran did it in 1963. Iraq in 1948.
Let’s focus on getting them into the habit of some kind of democratic election cycle and let the cultural force that is the modern media erode their cultural acceptance of medieval treatment of women.
Cultural and moral relativism isn’t consistent as scathing attacks on Christian, Jewish or European values is deemed perfectly acceptable.
Just focussing on the qualities of cultural and moral relativism, there is no way these liberal (read: lazy) values can survive given that one culture or group will assert itself over another. In this case, a culture that allows the mistreatment of women and religious minorities will triumph over the culture that says anything goes. That culture will become moot over time. history has show us this.
It is also juvenile to suggest that criticism of a culture is somehow an indictment of that culture as a whole. It suggests a lack of knowledge or a dislike of one’s own culture and a fear that a criticism – well-placed or not – means something we’ve been conditioned to believe is the worst sin or crime one can commit. A discerning mind can point out the admirable and terrible qualities of a culture and point to something that works. That’s reason. Clapping one’s hands over the mouth or ears is silliness and fear.
If anything, cultural and moral relativism are antithesis of progress. No one in their right mind should embrace them.
Tavis Smiley is a Nitwit…
There, I fixed the title for you… 🙂
In reference to the show Robert originally referenced, “I break with thee, I break with thee, I break with thee and then throw dog poopie on their shoes.”
– Steve Martin (b. 1945, Waco, Texas, United States of America, comedy routine, 20th Century)
Then again, Steve counted an odd number of tits onstage in Vegas and had his tongue trampled while doing so.
Nice to see the reds chase their tails over the paradox of being tolerant of intolerance. Karl Popper is rolling over in his grave.
There is nothing ‘centre’ about Joke Lark’s leftiness. After Turdoo Himself he is one the worst things that ever happened to Canuckistan.
“In a nutshell, belief in it means that you may not criticize or look down upon any other culture”.
My culture wants me to dress in a white sheet and burn a cross now and then. Why can`t the left afford me the same cultural respect as all the other practices?
Bill Maher cleans up quite good after doing the Geico caveman commercials, same forehead as that dude anyway.
The Euro Multi-Kulti nit wits start to see through their own propaganda.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Shlvki1dToY
A Euro-Eurika moment.
“Nice to see the reds chase their tails over the paradox of being tolerant of intolerance”
Sure enough, boris, it’s a lot like the idea of postmodern relativism – there is no objective truth! It’s all a social construct! Except postmodern relativism, which is the absolute undying truth!!!
Christopher Hitchens was right. Bill Maher’s audience will apparently clap at anything.
Never trust a man with the last name Smiley.
Wasn`t the clown Al Franken Smiley on SCL?
When I rule the world, Carolla gets Maher’s spot
re. Robert @2:35 – “I struggled with a category for Maher in this context…”
I’m afraid I a)am too tired to go find the exact clip, although I’m sure it’s on youtube, and b)somehow find Maher so objectionable that I actually can’t watch him without becoming become very irritated, which I’m really not in the mood for right now, but I understand that Andrew Breitbart recently appeared on Maher’s show and got him to concede that, contrary to what he has always claimed, he is not in fact a libertarian but merely a socialist who wants his pot and hookers legalized. For whatever that’s worth.
Smiley represents a victory for the handicapped.
It’s heartwarming to witness a mans mastery over a monster cunnilingus tool, and communicate five or more intelligible words on the air.
Truely a giant step for endowed mankind. Nominate him for the Noble Prize…..for piece:)
There was a video, it was yanked about 11am sunday morning by HBO for copyright. Which kinda makes me wonder why. Other Bill Maher Vid’s aren’t protected so thoroughly.
And it wasn’t just smiley, it was the other 2 libs at the table who compared “traditional conservative values aren’t much different from what happens in the middle east.” or something like that, the one who said that, was the female reporter, to which Maher said “Beheading is like opposing abortion?” He really did look dumbstruck at how willing his guests wanted to call republicans worse than mongrels.
@ Robert:
Your narrow minded blind enthusiasm for conservatism is only outdone by your near total ignorance regarding something you call the Left.
I mean how far does one have to be to the right to consider Ignatieff (who in some ways is to the right of Harper -you know both were apologists for the US invasion of Iraq) part of the Left?
Although being a right wing extremist would explain how anyone could consider Jack Layton an extreme Leftist. Layton and the NDP are repeatedly condemned by progressives and Leftist for their third way soft social democracy that capitulates way too much to the centre.
Then there’s blinding assertion that the Green Party is an expression of extreme Leftist politics. The Green Party is essentially a libertarian party with somewhat progressive social values, although sometimes they can appeal to social conservatives (see E. May’s position on abortion for example).
Your comment, however, that all SDA trolls (I resemble that remark) must necessarily be extreme leftists is very telling, for it really does circumscribe the ideological space you call the Left. Basically anyone who disagrees with you, must necessarily be an extreme leftist.
And this leads to a further point. Your bewilderment at the fact that two “liberals” could disagree with one another is symptomatic of the intransigence and chauvinism that marks conservatism. Which further explains why conservatives can neither define nor understand cultural relativism, nor postmodernism for that matter. It’s about respect for the truth not abandonment of the truth and involves something called nuance and understanding, something to which chauvinists like yourself are impervious.
I did watch the program to which you refer and the mischaracterization of the conversation that took place between Maher and Smiley would make an elementary school teacher blush with embarrassment.
Kate needs to find some better lackeys. You make celestial junk look intelligent.
Wow Bill Stewart, you sound like a really smart guy. So smart, in fact, that I have reexamined my political ideas and have now decided to join you on the certainly-not-far left. Congratulations on the conversion! Mission accomplished – don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
B.S.:
If i understand you correctly, Ignatieff is not to the left nor is Layton to the Far-left. and the GP is “libertarian”
Ignatieff favours federally funded daycare, more government spending and more taxes – all left of centre policies. Please point out one right of centre policy that he as LPC leader (his past statements and positions should be considered mute as he himself would insist) favours that would offset the above policies and move him and his party toward the centre of canadian politics.
Layton wants us out of nato, 100% publically-run healthcare, Much stronger Unions and a cancelling of NAFTA amoung many other things – none of which would be considered remotely centrist.
The GP wants AGW Carbon restrictions – hardly a libertarian position – in fact it is the antithesis of libertarian. PRetty-much down the line on domestic issues the GP is to the left of the LPC and on international affairs like the unrest in the ME – Dumb in the more clinical meaning of the word.
Now, if the above seems to you to not be policies of the left and ‘hard’-left, then I submit, that it is you, not Robert who is “blind”.
(your third to last para reminds me of the kind of babble that i occasionally witnessed in university – “psuedo-intellectualism” i think was the term used to describe it. Words like “nuance” and “postmodernism” are ‘tells’ in that regard. (and the rampant use of “chauvanism”?! Who are you Bobby Riggs?)
Send me your address so i can send you a dime to buy a clue.
Some just have a more articulate way of saying they believe in Communism.
Robert you oughta be careful: cultural relativist nitwits are an identifiable group and your writings could expose them to hateful sentiment.
@Gord: please do provide me with a clue to bstewart@gmail.com, but don’t send me out to buy one. Why don’t you just send me a list of incontrovertible universal truths that admit of no nuance nor self-reflexity on which to build my ideological edifice.
Harper maintains public health care. Does that make him a communist? Adhering to welfare state policies doesn’t necessarily make one a leftist. Now while there obviously exists a debate about what constitutes the Left, I do believe that characterizing the Left as any position contrarian to the monologic chauvinistic conservatism found here, is far too general. For many self-identified Leftists the welfare state, even social democracy is a complete sell out of Leftist principles- it is rather a capitulation to capitalism which Leftists see as the root problem.
Anyway we could quibble over details, but even Liberals themselves admit Ignatieff occupies the right flank of the Liberal Party. There is an old adage that Liberals run from the left and govern in the centre and Tories run from the right and govern in the centre. I think in this country there is something to that. Do you really think that Ignatieff would have governed very differently from the way Harper has?
About Layton, I didn’t say he wasn’t left of centre, what I said was that he is far from the extreme left. He is far from even social democracy. He appears like a Liberal when compared Scandinavian social democracy.
About the GP, it is not in sync with Ayn Rand but it does distance itself from the Left by urging the use of the market to shape behaviour rather than state regulation for example. I believe that the GP is a proponent of a (mostly) free market and free market principles. On the issue of the economy, the GP couldn’t be further from the Left.
On carbon restrictions, for example, the NDP would favour state regulation and target setting, whereas the GP favours market based correction. By taxing negative behaviour and incentivizing positive behaviour, businesses will lead us out the environmental crisis.
Anyway, as a self-identified Leftist I will continue to refuse and criticize such straw man non nuanced caricatures of the Left.
“I believe that the GP is a proponent of a (mostly) free market and free market principles.”
Really? If so, I’d like to talk to you about some real estate. I can get you a sweet deal on this bridge in Brooklyn NY…
Bill Stewart @9:43 – “…(cultural relativism)involves something called nuance and understanding, something to which chauvinists like yourself are impervious.”
God, I just love this stuff!
Bill, why are you so intolerant of our vibrant conservative culture? Why must you circumscribe our ideological space? You’re such a hegemonist!
“By taxing negative behaviour and incentivizing positive behaviour, businesses will lead us out the environmental crisis.”
Wait, Bill, so in the libertarian Green Party world as you imagine it businesses will be able to impose taxes?
@Phantom: The link betweens Greens and libertarianism is a political commonplace. If you disagree please provide evidence. Otherwise, please look up Green Libertarianism.
@Black Mamba: You’re attempt to be funny only displays your inability to properly deploy big words. And I’m not intolerant of conservatism, just in disagreement. I don’t expect agreement, but I would like a respectful, fair and decent representation of those things you love to denigrate around here (the Left, cultural relativism, postmodernism…)
“…your inability to properly deploy big words. And I’m not intolerant of conservatism, just in disagreement.” I duno, Bill, I’m pretty sure “chauvinist” constitutes hate speech. And in those sentences where you’re smarming on (inaccurately) about vocabulary deployment, maybe try not to split infinitives.
Black Mamba
Just for you because you like words like me.
Words are like Chinese puzzles in Pandora’s Box.
This is for the Frenchmen Bill as well.
How I despise the weasel word Nuance
The French Word Nuance
http://www.jstor.org/pss/459848