In the private sector, this would not happen, not without consequences. From my column.
Ferguson found roughly $1 million in questionable expenses. The cost to us for this audit? A staggering $23.5 million. It had previously been reported that Ferguson’s audit cost taxpayers $21 million but on Tuesday he admitted that no, it is actually $23.5 million.
So the overage on what his audit cost is 2.5 times higher than the amount of misspending he found. Great!
Only in a government town would that make sense.
You can read the whole thing here.
CTV’s Don Martin coming up now at 08:10 am Eastern on the Steve Madely Show at cfra.com
About 25 times, I think, not 2.5 times.
And I noted the irony myself of a taxpaid civil servant, undoubtedly with the same sort of expense account and govt credit cards as the senators although undoubtedly with more oversight and more-stringent spending rules, saying that spending $24-million to uncover $1-million in minor/major alleged fraud was alright. Interesting to read that the auditor was also doing stupid, government-y things like making YouTube videos.
I also await the news of the other names to see if they’re 66% Liberals too like the 6 of 9 being recommended for fraud charges. (And the bulk of the rest Mulroney Progressive Conservatives no matter who they caucus with today.)
This outrageous amount brings to mind the Chretien quote “what’s a few million” when he tossed millions to the wind in Quebec that created Adscam.
How much credibility can the NDP have criticizing the Senate every day in the HOC when they owe the government $2.75 million and have to be taken to court to fight to retrieve it?
The best way to recoup that money is for the Conservatives to pass a law that any party that owes money to the public–all the sitting MPs’ pay of the indebted party will be docked (up to 100%) until the full debt (with interest) is paid back. Furthermore, all living, retired MPs from the indebted party will curtail his/her whole pension until the debt is paid back. And make it retroactive so guys like Chretien and Sven Robinson get to literally “give back” to the public.
Good enough for government.
Bottom line the beast will always spend more than it has been permitted(Stolen), its the progressive way.
Time to set a flat tax rate and time limits on all careers at the public trough.
None may serve(themselves?) for more than 5 years.
If those who claim to serve us have to return to private business, it will slow their stupid greedy ways.
As it sure looks different when you are paying.
23.5 million audit for 30 flagged senators.
$783.000 per senator.
–
Cheaper to just let them keep the graft..
Low information voters in America have been doing it for years.
I think what Brian Lilley is overlooking is an intangible but very valuable thing; faith in government. If everyone believes that MPs and senators are only in Ottawa so they can fatten themselves at the public trough distrust in government grows, voters don’t bother to go to the polls (they’re all the same, why bother?) and democracy enters a downward spiral.
Would you trust an airline that only inspects 10% of its planes to the least stringent standard? Of course not, you want every airplane to be inspected to the highest standard and cost doesn’t matter.
QUITE WHINING FOLKS….. Canada is still the BEST PLACE ON THIS PLANET on which to LIVE!!!
OUR GOVERNING HUMANS………HUMAN SELF INTEREST NOTWITHSTANDING……
I AM
Joe MOlnar
I have a question. In what universe does it cost $23 million bucks to do an audit? All they did was go over these guys books, it shouldn’t have cost more than a couple hundred grand for a gold-plated no stone unturned examination of every pay stub and receipt.
So where’d all the money go? It’s like two billion for a gun registry you could run on a laptop. It doesn’t add up.
Well it is $2.5 million of ‘extra’ spending by the auditor general. His ‘extra’ spending is 2.5 times the misspending.
You’re right, Mike. I missed the “overage” part. (“Commenting straight out of bed” defence.)
I see it as an investment. It will set the rules for the future. Sure it’s expensive but it may have good returns.
So nice to hear our Canadian friends north of the border are also being financially shtupped by their government overlords. It makes our common bonds ever stronger. #orsomething
What is often lost in all of this is that Mike Duffy’s overspending of $90,000 was paid back in full.
How it was paid back doesn’t bother me one iota.
The fact is that we as taxpayers are not out one cent.
Now the Senate Audit? Well that’s another matter.
We are on the hook for this witch-hunt.
Good one, Frank. I’ll have to remember that one.
“Only in a government town would that make sense.”
This is what governments do, and the bigger the government, the more the financial abuse of the taxpayers. Just imagine where everyone works for the government like the NDP would like.
Make the rioters and looters as well as the riot instigators pay for the whole ferguson mess and screw the whining liberal whiners and UN Human Rights freakos
First in line at the hog trough are the Audits/investigations/hearings/committees – that’s where the real cream is – not skimming pennies on expense accounts.
Just another reason why I say we have outgrown these a-holes close down Parliament and 10 little parliaments and put KPMG in charge.Politicians cost too mush, doo too little and screw up everything they touch – just hand operations for Canada Inc. over to real management professionals and have done with it.
What we need is an oversight committee for the audit committee.
This whole audit is nonsense. The issue is not about an allowable business expense but the account (Senate) used to pay the expense…The Conservative or liberal party should just pay back the money to the taxpayers when the expense was mainly a PARTY benefit. The expense policy is set by the Government and are NOT determined by an nameless Auditor…An absolute standard does not exist…
Golf fees and other incidentals are legitimate business Expenses, the only question is who should pay those costs… It is a standard administrative issue of which “account” is charged and administrative issues are NOT auditable…. Management decisions set policy…period…. Not everyone gets the same perks.
The whole civil service would fail the same type of audit as NO government benefit could be found for many expenses. The CBC would be shut down….
23.5 Million to prove that a PENNY wise prick is not a valid expense. Audit the Audit….What expense policy could not be, or have been, set by an executive decision?
“Golf fees and other incidentals are legitimate business Expenses,”
I can’t expense these, I pay tax on them and so should these freeloading scum.
starting to look more and more like “Yes Minister.”
every downcycle in the economy is met with an up cycle in government and every up cycle is matched with an upcycle .
The auditor general is a 23.5 times bigger crook than the senators. How in hell does he criticize senators for poor value in greeting cards when his ass should be sent down the road for incompetence in managing his own organization.
Golf? The thing about most of these expenses is that they would normally be allowed by someone in a management position in a private organization. If you are a corporate executive you are being paid for your golf, your hockey tickets, and travel with a minuscule corporate connection.
“Golf fees and other incidentals are legitimate business Expenses,”
I can’t expense these, I pay tax on them and so should these freeloading scum /Quote
The tax issue is not the same as a Business expense. It may be that the IRS, or Revenue Canada, will not allow employees to get a tax fee benefit for what management has deemed an allowable expense. Those amounts are normally reported separately and taxed appropriately. It is frequently that company policy exceeds the taxable allowable benefits for per diem rates ETC… (normally set by the US state Department)and the Company eats those costs (pays taxes) or reports them as required.
The Senate audit does not seem to be a Revenue Canada Exercise and they are not necessary the same thing. The audit questions the Administration Management decisions. Permissions or not.
now that was the same “stupid” question I was going to ask, there is no way in hell that they can justify 23.5 million for an audit.
Phillip G Shaw.. what alternate universe do you live in? First, government is NOT business, period. I had to explain that same thing to a liberal idiot over the adscam thing, and yes, you sound like a liberal in that post. When ppl like you think that politicians and bureaucrats need to entertain those who they deal with in the course of governing, then I have to ASSume you fell off the turnip wagon and hit your head
You get my vote for the most sensible comment on this issue.
Philip – golf fees are NOT repeat NOT an allowable expense for BUSINESS tax purposes. A business may incur them, but said fees are added back in to net revenue before taxes are calculated. Happens on Schedule 1 of the T2. Similarly, meals and entertainment may show up on the income statement, but 50% of those expenses are also added back in to net revenue.
That being said, under what circumstances would going golfing with buds be considered legitimate Senate business? Similarly apparently with a lot of expenses which are suspect: hosting events for friends doesn’t make them legitimate business expenses; the same requirement should hold for Senators, MPs, MLAs, and civil servants.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
We need to have an independent audit of the Auditor General. Frankly, if it really cost that much for his department to audit two years’ worth of Senate expenses, I question his competence, or that of his employees.
The government should hire a reputable private auditing firm to audit the Auditor General department. Audit not just the financials, but also their procedures, in search of some reason why this exercise cost what it did. Put the job out to tender.
Could I become an auditor for the government, too?
Sounds like a pretty good gig.
My question is this: Who’s going to arrest the sheriff?
…AND over to you Evan (Solomon), what you say?
Here’s a thought.
Few years back the PM went before a senate committee to comment on the need for senate reform and that his proposal was a two paragraph bill. The quote that sticks in my mind was:
“Don’t let me make this an election issue”
To be brief listening to the usual media suspects and punditry the talking point now is it needs to change, reform or abolish but it needs to change.
If Harper had forced a constitutional change in 2007 he would have been road kill and the possibility of having a shot at senate reform would be DOA and Dion would have been PM.
So take a mental checklist
The media is beating the drum of change.
The SCOC has responded already to the question so they do not need to be consulted again.
There is an election in October which would present an opportunity to include a referendum question on the ballot, which would obligate the next government whoever forms it, to act on the peoples choice.
But there is something else.
Because the status quo is no longer an option there is only two positions, reform or abolish, with abolition being the steeper hill to climb (unanimous consent).
If put on the ballot as one of two choices that eliminates the mushy middle, the status quo advocates won’t do too well.
It also prevents Mulroney’s mistake from happening.
Mulroney’s mistake was to try to work out a deal with the premiers in a locked room before calling a referendum.
Do the referendum first the politicians will be reluctant to try to use a fed prov conference as an opportunity for a side deal.
Under those circumstances achieving 7 of 10 province’s and 50% has better than good odds of success.
Just sayin.
“golf fees are NOT repeat NOT an allowable expense for BUSINESS tax purposes.”
That is because expenses relating to camps, lodges, yachts, and golf courses are specifically disallowed. That does not mean that a company executive cannot be reimbursed for these expenses, just that the company cannot deduct them. A whole lot of PR work is done on the golf course. Is it legitimate? If the parties involved have a business relationship, it sure is. You can go to hockey games instead – they aren’t disallowed providing there is a business purpose, normally PR.
From the 2015 proxy of Imperial Oil, PwC charged $1.548 million for their audit. From the 2015 proxy of Suncor, PwC charged $7.192 million for their audit. From the 2015 proxy of Royal Bank of Canada, Deloitte charged $28.4 million for auditing the bank, subsidiaries, and mutual funds.
Imperial Oil had revenues of US$36 billion, Suncor had revenues of $40 billion, and Royal Bank had assets of $940.55 billion at the end of their 2014 fiscal years.
The Canadian Senate had a budget of $102.717 million for the year ended March, 2014.
How can an audit charge of $23.5 million for the Senate be justified?
Reform the Senate – dream on. Quebec would come to the table with a shopping list of grievances demanding that they can legally defecate on anything English. When they are done, it would be time for another referendum. Why would the grossly over-represented Atlantic Provinces show any interest?
Make the Senate be elected and they will gain legitimacy and constantly be at war with the House of Commons. Just let it be sober second thought that puts on the brakes when laws get weird. Who is going to champion Senate reform? Seems to be a dead end street.
The CPC have had it in for the Senate for years now. I smell a witch hunt, and the 23x cost to find $1 million in questionable expenses strongly supports that theory.
I have a small business with 4 employees. My bookkeeper wants ALL receipts so she gets ALL receipts, including ones for smokes and beer and groceries and other stuff that is not a business expense. I usually remember to mark most of them with what they were for.
I would expect a Senator to do much the same. Beyond getting little bits of paper for every dime spent and handing it all over to some poor soul who then has to read, sort, and enter the cursed things I doubt any Senator has the vaguest clue what their expense claims are. All they likely do is go about their business, collect the bits of paper, and stuff ’em in a box for the bean counters like any other decent sane civilised person does.
Occam is correct. Just like a $4 box of corn flakes is made up of 30 cents worth of corn flakes and $3.70 worth of packaging/distribution. The corn flakes are insignificant compared to where the bulk of the real money is. Typical money making scam, create a problem then get buckets of money thrown at it to solve the problem. Where do you think liberal-socialists get the cash to buy silk stockings?
Coincidentally, I learned from the news that today is “tax freedom day”, when we finally start working for ourselves instead of the government (all levels),and that this year,tax freedom day comes one day later than previously.
Here in AB with our new Socialist gooberment,we’ll be lucky to have “tax freedom day” by the end of July after 4 years
The auditors should be audited. How can they spend $25 million in 2 years? Let’s see, at an average of $100k per annum per employee, that’s 125 people. Apparently they investigated 800,000 claims, that’s 3,200 per year per employee, or 1.71 per hour, given a 37.5 hour week and 2 weeks holiday per year.
Did they all get golf club memberships?
I like to point out to people how much their “free” healthcare costs them. Typically, 40% of your taxes goes to health care; 43% of your money goes to taxes.
http://globalnews.ca/news/932105/by-the-numbers-how-much-did-canada-spend-on-health-care-in-2013/
http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/tax-freedom-comes-a-day-later-again-1.2415200
So, if you earn 70k per year, your are paying $12,000 per year for the free health care you are probably not receiving.
Mind you, though, Alex Munter, a politico of no medical skill, gets $330,000 of those dollars.
http://www.cheo.on.ca/uploads/Executive%20Compensation%20Plan%20CHEO.pdf
Perhaps we should cut some of the bureaucracy, particularly middle management. A monopoly is a bad thing; a state monopoly is worse.
peter | June 5, 2015 6:09 PM | Reply
It is kind of interesting that the official 911 Kean Commission spent $14 million investigating the 911 attack, and here we have everyone crowing about $1 million in “reckless” spending that the guy we’re praising for “rooting out” spent $21 million to uncover.
Methinks this is a witch hunt…not to defend crooks, but who (and how is possible to) spends 21 million to find 1 or two million in “lining of pockets free spending” by thirty people over 10 or 15 years?
Something ain’t right here.
Where’s Sheila Fraser when you need her?
Give every Senator a $100 dollar a day per diem over their Salaries with no strings attached and no expense accounts and a five year term limit – problem solved.
How about they get their salaries and nothing else? Why should a public servants live better than the public they serve?
Agreed, an executive can incur non-allowable (for tax purposes) business expenses for which he can be reimbursed by his company, but someone in the company has to make the decision that said expenses produce enough of value to justify them.
Government is a different matter. Generally speaking, people are coming to them for favours, not the reverse. So I don’t see why a government employee, MP, or senator should be hosting a golf game as legitimate government business. Similarly taking out an underling for lavish lunches (as the late George Radwanski – he who was “forgiven” 85% of his $580,000 tax arrears before being appointed Privacy Commissioner by PM Chretien – was wont to do). Reality is, the necessities of doing business aren’t present in governments, so civil servants and elected officials should have fewer and smaller expenses than the owners of your average small business or CCPC.
As far as this audit is concerned, the costs do seem out of line. A simple request for documentation for all expenses would have very quickly weeded out a lot of claims. Following that, application of the basic rules CRA has for businesses would have knocked out a fair few more. That would leave not that many for deeper analysis. And forget ordinary auditors, send in CRA auditors. Ask any group of accountants, and you will be given the names of CRA personnel they would most like to see deployed checking out government expenses.
$23.5 million to do an audit?
No wonder people outsource labour.