Now is the time at SDA that they were warned!
AJC.com;
The failed Range Fuels wood-to-ethanol factory in southeastern Georgia that sucked up $65 million in federal and state tax dollars was sold Tuesday for pennies on the dollar to another bio-fuel maker with equally grand plans to transform the alternative energy world.
From the archives of Steven Den Beste;
One of the biggest advantages of coal and oil is that they are high-energy, but also extremely concentrated. A relatively small capital investment in a single area can harvest a great deal of useful end-product. A big open-pit coal mine can justify hundreds of millions of dollars spent on big shovels and huge dump trucks, because the shovel can dig more than a ton of coal on each bite, and each dump truck can carry several tons of coal out of the mine. The coal can be carried by rail point-to-point from the mine to a big power plant to be burned, or to a nearby harbor where it will be loaded on barges or ocean-going bulk carriers. All of this can be done big because huge amounts of coal come from one place, and go to a small number of destinations. Since petroleum is liquid, it is even easier to transport via pipelines or ships.
Coal would be a lot less valuable if it was found as a layer one centimeter thick spread over an area the size of the states of Iowa and Nebraska; the collection process would defeat the purpose. How difficult would it be to gather it all? How much equipment would be needed? Would it make sense economically to buy it all, given that each piece of equipment could only collect a relatively small amount of coal? Unfortunately, it wouldn’t.
But that’s exactly what the situation is when you’re talking about any kind of biomass as a source of fuel; it grows on the ground, and though you may get a lot of it, it’s spread over an immense area and you can’t do anything until you pick it all up first and collect it.
Of course, if one is only interested in harvesting tax dollars…
I had a client years ago and every week there was some biofuel company wanting it to invest in some grand new technology. These guys would be wined and dined, flown all over the place and, eventually, they’d be brought to a corporate head office with a lease 10x their own for a meeting. At that point, they’d find out the plants were either: not build, non-operational, operating intermittently, or there were no supply contracts.
At one point, the VP asked where one executive where his company got all the money to build all this stuff when it didn’t work yet. The answer: government money and bank loans, guaranteed by the government.
That was 5 or 6 years ago. Good to see nothing has changed.
Pondering biofuel, I find myself thinking that oil and gas and coal all have a biological origin and millions of years of natural processes has concentrated the bio-energy into an extremely efficient energy product, then I think about humans trying to efficiently replicate this process using just one year’s harvest…
Ethanol is a scam, it takes more energy to produce ethanol than is in the fuel. However IT’S NOT MADE FROM FRENCH FRY GREASE. Not understanding that important difference is as stupid as putting diesel fuel in a gasoline engine fuel tank. If you’re going to be critical of bio fuels, then learn how to focus the criticism intelligently. Otherwise the criticism is easily dismissed as the ravings of an idiot.
North doesn’t do nuance.
Any truth to the rumour that these scammers just packed up and moved to greener grant pastures: Ontario?
then I think about humans trying to efficiently replicate this process using just one year’s harvest…
More farmers are doing just that. They grow and harvest an oilseed crop that provides all the diesel fuel to run the whole farm. It uses about 15% of the cropland for fuel. The savings compared with buying petro-diesel fuel are significant. The equipment to make the fuel from pressing the seed was purchased WITHOUT any government grant or subsidies. This is the kind of self reliance and innovation that made this country great. Criticizing them only shows ignorance and disrespects people who are way smarter and way more resourceful. I can remember when self reliance, personal responsibility and innovation were respected. Those were better times when this country was great.
Just a month or 2 ago, Koch Industries bought a 50 million dollar corn ethanol plant for 5 million. It was the only bidder. Now with this cellulosic fiasco, Abengoa has recently been awarded 30-50 million for a cellulosic plant in Kansas. It seems if it doesn’t work, they would stop trying. No bank under this relulatory climate will loan money for building a plant. Why should the Department of Energy be in the bad loan business?
@ Henry chance
“Why should the Department of Energy be in the bad loan business?”
For the same reason that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were in the bad loan business…to buy votes.
@ Kate:
“Of course, if one is only interested in harvesting tax dollars…”
Of course, if one is only interested in WASTING tax dollars…because government doesn’t harvest anything.
There fixed that for you Kate.
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
Does anyone know if there is a web site that tracks the closings of “green” technologies and a running cost of these closings to tax payers?
Does anyone know if there is a web site that tracks the closings of “green” technologies and a running cost of these closings to tax payers?
Posted by: Mike W at January 5, 2012 3:45 PM
Not that I know of. Don’t know why the oil companies aren’t outing these ripoff artists and the real scammers: the NGO enviro-parasites that are raking in millions and millions of taxpayer dollars.
Other than William Watson (who has asked some valid questions about Dr. Robert Smith)and Ian Cumming (who exposed the dispersal of GTA Greenbelt funding to Smith et al)everybody else in the media apparently can’t smell the rot.
yop
“……..I find myself thinking that oil and gas and coal all have a biological origin and millions of years……….”
Not surprising. One of the great assumptions is the labeing of petroleum and coal as being fossilized organic matter. It’s a bit like liberals labeling themselves as “progressive”…
Not necessarilly so.
There is no direct, verifiable evidence for an organic origin…just a long held assumption.
However, well founded venerable scholarship disagrees….
Lyell, Charles, 1843, “on the upright Fossil Trees found at different levels in the Coal Strata of Cumberland, Nova Scotia, “American Journal of Science, 1:45, p. 353-356.
Basically howcum these trees rooted in the rock beneath the vein….pass through the vein into the overhead rock….but have not turned to coal?
Block, C, and Dams, R.,1975, “inorganic composition of Belgian coals and coal ashes,” Envir. Sci. Techrol., Vol 9, p. 146-150.
Gibson, D. W., 1977, “Upper Cretaceous and Tertiary Coal Bearing Strata in the Drumheller-Ardley Region, Red Deer River Valley, Alberta,” Geo. Surv.Can.Pap 76-35.
Howcum mass extinctions such as the KT boundary besides having a lot of iridium, uranium, berilium also feature a layer of coal? The dino bones are directly underneath…that’s why they are black.
http://www.iceagenow.com
It may not convince ya but it will make ya think….
North of 60
One of the basic problems with bio-diesel is it turns to grease in the cold. And features gummed filters in the warm and vapour locks…which can drive ya nuts—nuts—-nuts. we already have enough problems with summer-winter diesel…….
They got a $7 million grant to buy a $5 million ethanol plant. I would have done it for $6 million. It would have save the government $1 million and it will end up bankrupt either way. So what if I sttle for just a $1 million management fee.
just a little poll here. we have lots of farmers on this blog.
how many go with IQ just North of 60’s idea that lots of farmers make biofuel with 15% of their land?
One of the basic problems with bio-diesel is it turns to grease in the cold.
I run a fuel mix containing cold filtered B20 biodiesel made from used fryer oil all winter in a climate that gets to 30 below. The biodiesel concentration is greater in the summer. This saves me about 25% on my annual cost of fuel. Only an idiot would consider this as not worthwhile. How many of you would like a 25% fuel discount for a few hours of your time?
This country became great because of people who knew how to innovate and work around problems that ignorant people considered insurmountable.
As for farmers growing their own fuel, this tradition is as old as farming. The growing number that are doing it is immaterial. The fact that they are becoming more self sufficient in a world of ever rising fuel costs WITHOUT GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES should be an inspiration to all conservative minded people who don’t have their heads up their asses.
North of 60, are you trying to tell us that they use Belgian fry grease? I have trouble telling the difference, myself.
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. — Albert Einstein
For those of us who live in cities and don’t grow our own fuel crops we don’t get any savings from biofuels. We get higher taxes so that whoever is growing the crops gets a subsidy. Doesn’t seem to add up to me why I should subsidize a failing business when even the business world won’t even invest in it.
yes IQ barely North of 60 , I remember the days of burning cow flops .
I burn better than 4000liters a year , 1000liters of fry grease, dont think I would have that in a lifetime.
N60: “…used fryer oil…”
That’s fine. But there’s nowhere near enough used fryer oil to meet all such potential use. That means the price would rise with demand, making your model uneconomic. Also, remember that what you are doing essentially is recycling scrap. That’s a fine idea, but you can’t pretend that the quantity is nearly sufficient to meet more than a very tiny fraction of transport fuel demand. Because it’s unwanted scrap, essentially it has no value. If it should have value, the economic model here falls apart.
Think, learn, research, analyze and draw your own conclusions. This is especially true with concepts that challenge your preconceived ideas. Just parroting political rhetoric is an insult to your intelligence. Humans are unique because of our ability to change and adapt to new information.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.-Robert A. Heinlein
being an architect,engineer , father , acreage owner and sometimes drinker I think I managed all but the last on that list.
That’s fine. But there’s nowhere near enough used fryer oil to meet all such potential use. That means the price would rise with demand, making your model uneconomic.
~cgh
I was just reading about that last night and it seems that the price of used fryer grease has risen to the point that thieves are targeting it and restaurant owners are pressing for a law to deal with the theft.
#3. The Used Grease Thieves-from Cracked.com NSFW language
Coal and hydrocarbons do pack a huge amount of energy in a small package, but uranium is thousands of times more efficient.
Case in point: the McArthur River mine in northern Saskatchewan has disturbed less than two square miles of wilderness, yet produces enough energy to supply 7% of the electricity used inthe United States annually.
Coal and hydrocarbons do pack a huge amount of energy in a small package, but uranium is thousands of times more efficient.
Case in point: the McArthur River mine in northern Saskatchewan has disturbed less than two square miles of wilderness, yet produces enough energy to supply 7% of the electricity used inthe United States annually.
Coal and hydrocarbons do pack a huge amount of energy in a small package, but uranium is thousands of times more efficient.
Case in point: the McArthur River mine in northern Saskatchewan has disturbed less than two square miles of wilderness, yet produces enough energy to supply 7% of the electricity used inthe United States annually.
But there’s nowhere near enough used fryer oil to meet all such potential use. … That’s a fine idea, but you can’t pretend that the quantity is nearly sufficient to meet more than a very tiny fraction of transport fuel demand.
Nor did I ever say it could, since that’s irrelevant.
By that faulty logic since hydroelectric dams cannot meet ALL of our electricity needs then they should be decommissioned and not used, nor should any more ever be built.
The amount of used cooking oil and non food grade vegetable oil produced can be economically made into biodiesel. When biodiesel is blended with petro-diesel, even in small percentages it significantly reduces the unhealthy diesel particulate pollution and makes the diesel fuel burn cleaner, especially in the older diesel engines still in service.
That one-centimetre-deep-across-north-america argument? Exactly the point. Any move towards more diffuse energy sources is a move backwards in technology. It’s why wood is gave way to coal gave way to oil gave way to nuclear. It’s why fusion (or something even more concentrated) is tomorrow.
Now think about a layer of energy 1300 W thick spread over the irradiated surface of the planet, and imagine how easy it will be to make it profitable. That’s called “solar photovoltaic power”. It appeals to anyone who can’t do simple arithmetic, and it’s spelled “Solyndra.”
“KiOR is wrapping up details for a massive $1 billion US Department of Energy (DOE) loan guarantee to support construction of four projects, which would each consume an estimated 1.25 million green tons/year of wood at capacity, producing 62.5 million gallons/year of oil.”
‘Cause Solyndra wasn’t big enough.
For those of us who live in cities and don’t grow our own fuel crops we don’t get any savings from biofuels.
Thankfully we live in a society where intelligent people make decisions to use biodiesel as a diesel fuel additive to reduce urban pollution even when the benefits of that are beyond the understanding of some of the people who live in cities.
By choice I don’t live in a city. I heat my house with biofuel. I use standing dead and deadfall wood to save thousands of dollars in fuel costs every year.
Instead of taking a myopic view of banning anything you don’t understand, try to grasp the economics and reality of appropriate technology. There are no universal solutions to the energy supply. Intelligent people use what is economically and environmentally appropriate for their particular situation.
I don’t tell anyone how to run their life, nor have I ever suggested that what works for me will work for everyone else.
Anyone who doesn’t like that can Papa Oscar.
Fortunately the coal is not going anywhere and the technology to build the power plants will not disappear. Once we realize that we are too broke to be this stupid, politicians will rediscover their love of fossil fuels…even ‘dirty’ coal. Some newer coal plants are designed for additional units to be added so new power generation can be built relatively quickly.
It is not a bad thing that older coal plants are being converted/replaced by NG and combined cycle NG plants but newer coal plants are not really the environmental monster everyone seems to think they are. Prior to the AGW hysteria the industry was already building better and cleaner power plants. IMO, creating technology to make coal plants more environmentally friendly is far more cost effective than trying to make solar, wind, ethanol and bio-diesel cost-effective. The problem is that newer EPA legislation is not designed to promote innovation but to financially cripple coal plants.
You ever notice that the MSM is up in arms over any cuts to public servants but have zero sympathy for workers in the conventional electricity industry who would lose their livelihoods in order to ‘save the Earth’ from the phantom CO2 menace.
If you don’t like how you’re taxed or the decisions your governments make on your behalf, then gather your like-minded friends together to elect representatives who agree with your views. That’s how democracy works. If you don’t vote, you don’t have much reason to complain. In a democracy people generally get the government they deserve.
Nice is theory Nof60 but a disturbing number of politicians seem to be, er, honesty-challenged. They say they will do A,B,C and you vote them into power on those promises. They then promptly forget about A,B,C and legislate D thru Z instead. You can throw the bums out but odds are the new government will do exactly the same thing.
Yup, I couldn’t agree more. Got any ideas for a better system?
I’ve heard that a benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government, but that hinges on how one defines ‘benevolent’. Then there is the Chinese system…
Comparing the economic success of the US & China, guess who seems to be winning?
Coal works and is now much cleaner than it was…
China is just doing the cheap and nasty.
Coal is good baseload….and North America has enough for centuries….fracking yeilds NG for 250 years….
NG is more flexible…capable of instant load…turbines rather than steam…only one little problem….$0.26-.30/per kw/h.
Beats the hell out wind and solar and is available 24/7.
Biggest problem with coal is it’s weight and bulk….why France went nuclear…it simply couldn’t factor in the rail and port infrastructure to do that with coal. A carload of uranium fuels France for about three years and produces about the same waste…..
Bio-diesel is a problem….most of it seems based on Brazilian soybeans and Indonesian palm oil. Places on Borneo that 30 years back were only accessible by helo…or a three week tramp….are now clear….boggles the mind. Once established the plantations provide a similar leaf mass to forest….but erode badly in hilly ground.
In the meantime…we should continue to clean up nature’s biggest oil spill…the OIL SANDS…it’s just the right thing to do. The enviros are just stupid….not misinformed…stupid.
a disturbing number of politicians seem to be, er, honesty-challenged.
How many of you take the time to meet face-to-face with the candidate seeking your vote, so you can look them straight in the eye and ask the sorts of questions that let you evaluate their honesty and integrity for yourself? My favorite question is: “If a lobbyist offered you a million dollars cash to vote against the wishes of your constituents, what would you do.?” Watch their eyes and you will learn a lot about how to cast your vote. I suspect that most voters won’t bother. Which is exactly why we have a corrupt political system. If you want a better political system then it’s up to you to select better candidates and only vote for the honest ones.
I’d bet that China is going to crash and crash hard. China is not run as well as the NYT would have you believe. Walter Russel Mead, and others, often has articles on the subject if you’re interested. Besides their demographic problems (millions of real not statistical poor) and the one child policy repercussions) have yet to be seen. Forget the US, how exactly is the PRC better than the Canada or Australia?
Besides, if the China model of repression, mass starvation and absolute submission to authority is “success” then they can have it.
The democracy model would be better if government was smaller – fewer areas to screw up. Progress and choice has been made in all areas of society and the free market choice. We are far richer and have a higher standard of living than 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago. The biggest problem areas are the ones handled exclusively by government – health, welfare, debt/deficits, transportation, green energy, education, etc.
Bio-diesel is a problem….most of it seems based on Brazilian soybeans and Indonesian palm oil.
Not in Canada. Our biodiesel comes from canola oil.
All of my biodiesel and all of my petro-diesel comes from Canadian sources.
It’s a matter of being personally responsible for the choices you make and how they impact you, the people around you, and the rest of the planet. How many of you remember the concept of personal responsibility, and practice it in your daily lives?
The democracy model would be better if government was smaller – fewer areas to screw up.
Yes, and with more local and regional control and less federal control.
Look at one of the oldest and most successful democracies in the world, Switzerland, for a good example of how government should be structured.
You have a very idealized view of the world, Nof60. Politicians, like most professions, have certain personality traits. Unfortunately, in general, the traits that allow you to succeed in the cutthroat world of politics include the ability to convincingly lie and never give a straight answer.
For instance, what are the odds Bob Rae will run for the LPC leadership despite promising not to? Hw will have a technical excuse, of course, but only other pollies would see that as honesty. To others it would be like reneging on a deal after a handshake or breaking a gentleman’s agreement. Actions speak louder than words.
Coal and hydrocarbons do pack a huge amount of energy in a small package, but uranium is thousands of times more efficient.
Canada is one of the world’s leaders in the development of small scale nuclear. Community scale reactors that could provide heat and electricity, with a liter of fuel that needs replacement about every 20 years. The only thing preventing implementation is the nutbar nucophobes. There’s a big population of voters whose ‘nuclear education’ comes from watching the Simpsons, and listening to the alarmist MSM.
For those of you who want to address me personally use this e-mail:
n0rth_0f_60@yahoo.com
Otherwise refrain from grandstanding and acting like you know what others are thinking. It adds nothing to intelligent discussion.
Of the 44 posts on this subject, North of 60 has posted 15 times.
More farmers are doing just that. They grow and harvest an oilseed crop that provides all the diesel fuel to run the whole farm. It uses about 15% of the cropland for fuel. The savings compared with buying petro-diesel fuel are significant.
On a 1500 acre farm, that’s a cost of, at least, $25 an acre. Plus the cost of the refining equipment added to the cost of farming the 15% of the cropland. Over $30/acre total cost = $45,000.
Not much saving there…
Obviously the farmers doing it don’t agree with those assumptions.
Yeah, I’ve run into those kind before. Always some kind of BS degree involved…don’t stay in business very long…
N60: “Canada is one of the world’s leaders in the development of small scale nuclear.”
I wish this was true. At one time we were with the development of the SLOWPOKE reactor in the late 1960s and 1970s. However, the technology was confined to six research installations at Canadian universities (including one at Whiteshell) and was eventually abandoned. The reactor was about 10-20 MW, perfect for a small local application. As a sealed unit, its fuel would last for about 5-7 seven years.
It was abandoned by AECL. The regulators insisted on applying the full scope of regulatory requirements for it, and that killed the economics. Worse, it was copied by the Chinese after a delegation saw it in the early 1980s.
Yes, Canada’s federal nuclear R&D has done great things in the past, but only if another government agency doesn’t kill it off.
Sasquatch, you are entirely correct about fuel mass requirements. A typical large reactor needs about 150 tonnes of fuel a year, while a coal-fired plant operating as base load needs about 5 million tonnes of coal a year. For a visual impression, the nuclear fuel is about 9 cubic metres, say, the size of about four refrigerators. The coal volume? If you’ve seen the coal pile outside a coal-fired station, multiply it by four, because the average coal pile is about 90 days supply.