120 Replies to “Your Lying Eyes”

  2. batb:
    I guess, to summarize your point:
    Legally, a mosque CAN be built in the same building that was hit by airplane fragments on 9/11.
    The moral question is … SHOULD it be built?
    We set the tone of this debate.
    As long as we continue to stay in the realm of ideas and stay away from belittling those with different ideas, then our side will prevail.
    Concede the juvenile name-calling and intellectual hollowness that follow from it to the other side.
    Those who rise above the tribal mob’s tactics of personal attacks will win the day.

  3. Yes, syf, the moral question is, “SHOULD this mosque be built at Ground Zero?”
    Why not write to Mayor Bloomberg, staying in the realm of ideas, and making a strong case that while Muslims in the U.S. have the right and freedom to build a mosque at Ground Zero, it appears not to be a good idea and sends the wrong message to the American people — if the message is peace, good will, and reconciliation:
    http://www.nyc.gov/portal/site/nycgov/menuitem.bd08ee7c7c1ffec87c4b36d501c789a0/index.jsp?doc_name=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nyc.gov%2Fhtml%2Fmail%2Fhtml%2Fmayor.html

  4. Bloomberg, like Obama, seems to find some sort of pride in governing against the will of the people.
    That pride will, most certainly, be their undoing.

  5. BJT said: “They have the right build it where ever they want so long as the don’t break the law, and own the land.”
    Yep that’s right for sure. And the Japanese government would be 100% ok to buy a spot next to the USS Arizona memorial in Hawaii and erect a 13 story Shinto shrine honoring the Emperor and the glorious warriors of Japan.
    Uh huh.
    Do you even think about these things, or do you just post whatever you imagine will be the most annoying? Talk about invincible stupidity…
    A shrine to the Japanese Emperor would be -less- heinous than the 9/11 mosque, as Pearl Harbor was a military target and the crew of the USS Arizona at least had the opportunity to shoot back before they died.
    I predict if the mosque gets built, people will die over it. Most likely innocent people who had no part in it, that’s how these things usually go. Hope it makes you happy when they haul the bodies out, BJ. It’ll be what you say you wanted.

  6. BTJ
    Fair enough, we’ll agree to disagree. That said, all of your talk about my desire to do as the “collective” wishes is your projection. Those are not my thoughts, and quite possibly I haven’t articulated my POV well enough for you.
    Re: classy
    I didn’t say classy = right. You can be in the right and not be classy about it. That is exactly what I think is happening here. If the shoe was on the other foot, I’d like to think I’d have the same view on this issue. As far as rights go, I’m with you. I just don’t think that this particular situation is analogous to a community not wanting a particular group setting-up for business because they disapprove of proprietors behavior(a gay bar has been mentioned as an example). right or wrong that is my view, and you haven’t convinced me otherwise.
    RE: BTJ
    For what it’s worth, this discussion has been going on for three days + and I don’t recall BTJ playing the “race card” once. At least THAT is worth something.

  8. ET – (again if you’re still around, I’m actually surprised this threat is still going, thanks BTJ :D)
    While I understand that this is the way our particular democracy and civilization evolved this may not necessarily be true for other societies. It may not even be possible for other societies to develop along the same lines simply because it is my belief that there cannot be, and possibly should not be, a robust middle class in every country in the world. Furthermore just having someone else around changes the evolution of a society. Look at Africa for instance, there are some places with democratically elected governments even though they’re dirt poor and their history has had no great scholars and has comprised of little else other than tribal warfare. I just find your historical retrospective analysis rather limiting.
    That said I’d like to go back to my original disagreement with you vis-a-vis Obama’s rolling back of Bush’s democratic expansion. The middle east doesn’t have our kind of history. Their culture is Islamic and not Christianity. As such based on what we’ve discussed they could never form a western style democratic society just because the different outlook that Islam has of the world. If Obama rolls back Bush’s democracy building projects we really are none worse for wear. The Mumbarak regime for example has been a bulwark against the Islamist takeover of the country. So has Assad, Musharaf, Hussein and the Turkish military.
    I think we’re too wrapped up in the dogma of secular inoffensiveness. The problem with the middle east is not that they have dictatorial regimes, or that they can’t have “free and fair” elections, the problem is Islam plain and simple. Not “militant Islam” or “Islamists” or any other vague inane distinction we attempt to draw but Islam period, no qualifiers. Yes I know in the modern world such speak is both blasphemous and heretical but hey it’s true. The implications of that statement are both horrendous and philistine and would probably fundamentally alter our society forever. It’s not really a bad thing though. If you think about it, Islam aside, our society is finished anyways.
    Party like it’s 1999 anyone?

  10. By your same ‘Should or Should not’ argument could one not argue that one ‘should not’ build a catholic church next to an elementary school? Since those ‘extremist’ catholics molested small children? Is that not indecent by the same standards.

  11. IH:
    ” That said, all of your talk about my desire to do as the “collective” wishes is your projection.”
    I think not my friend, and I quote:
    “I do advocate the people that wish to build the mosque there to reconsider building it there, respecting the wishes of their neighbors.”
    ie. Respecting the collective majority
    “As far as the Left is concerned, on every issue, not only is the Right wrong”
    ie. grouping people into two opposing collectives
    “Actually, even that isn’t so considering that most people (because most people do believe in God) do believe that right and wrong is NOT SUBJECTIVE but it’s actually quite clearly defined. ”
    ie. stating that what is ‘decent’ and ‘considerate’ depends on the views of the collective majority (those that ‘believe in god’).
    ” The ONLY people that have a problem with right and wrong are atheists and agnostics(which I’m one)- in other words, the Left.”
    ie. more gouping of people into collective identities and judging their character and values based on those collective identities.
    “I didn’t say classy = right.”
    No? That’s funny, I could have sworn I read the following:
    “because it’s the classy (and right) thing to do.”
    “Classy is always “right”.”

  12. “Classy is always “right”.”
    But right isn’t always classy.
    I use terms like Left and Right for lack of better terms. That’s it, nothing else.
    ie. Respecting the collective majority
    nope, I’d be considerate even if it was a minority of people upset. Even if you disagree, I still reject you labeling of me as a “collectivist”. Perhaps you could take me at my word?

  13. “nope, I’d be considerate even if it was a minority of people upset.”
    That’s still a collective…majority or minority.
    “I still reject you labeling of me as a “collectivist”. Perhaps you could take me at my word?”
    I AM taking you on your words. You can state that you reject thinking in collectivist terms all you want, it doesn’t have any bearing when the rest of your statements show otherwise.

  14. “They are only American Citizen of convenience.”
    Ah, and your true colours show.
    And coming from a Canadian citizen too…laughable.

  15. batb:
    I’m sorry if I didn’t answer the one question you really wanted a response to.
    “The question should be…is it wise or compassionate to build it so close to Ground Zero, where over 3000 people were killed by Muslims on 9/11?”
    I’ve answered this numerous times. First of all, whether or not it is ‘wise’ or ‘compassionate’ is not an objective question…it depends on how the viewer perceives these actions.
    If I look at this Mosque and immediately start thinking that it represents all the bad things about Islam and it’s connection to 9/11, well, I’ll likely feel that it is unwise and not compassionate. If I look at this Mosque and immediately consider the fact that innocent Muslims lost their lives in that attack, that the attackers did not represent the religion of Islam as a whole, and in doing so, consider each individual Islamic practitioner as an individual independent person, rather than considering each individual Islamic practitioner as inherently connected to terrorism (a collectivist mentality)…then I may see that their intentions are meant to heal, and so may be wise and meant to show compassion.
    Here is an alternative example. If I look at Christian missionaries in Africa and I immediately think of the fact that Protestant Christianity played a role in the KKK..well, I’ll probably think it unwise and not compassionate. But if I look at each missionary as an independent individual then I’ll probably see that they seek to do well.

  16. My last comment on this.
    A few years ago, Telus (I think) ran a TV ad set in a Nativity setting. Shortly after, they removed the ad and apologied to any of those that may have been upset by the ad.
    Now, was there something wrong with the ad? No.
    Did Telus have the right to air the ad? Yes.
    Perhaps it was class, perhaps it was out of self-preservation, but one thing seems clear to me; they didn’t want to alienate a group of people for no good reason.
    At the time, my wife and I discussed this issue of “rights” and “right and wrong”. In the end, my wife convinced me that even though it was Telus’s right to air the ad(they paid for it after all), pulling the ad was the right thing. They decided to not poke those in the eye that quite frankly TOOK IT THE WRONG WAY.
    Finally, reports are now saying that those that wish to build the mosque appear to be pulling-back; like Telus. Those commie bastards!/sarc

  18. Friend of the USA
    I am with you on citizen of convenience.
    More than 50.000 Lebanese Canadian were evacuated
    from Lebanon during the last conflict at a huge expense to taxpayers. In the end the majority returned once the conflict over.
    Compare to the US with a population 10 times higher, their numbers were 30.000.
    BTJ I am getting tired of your drivel and I wish
    people put you on ignore. You must be paid by the word.
    I will leave you with 2 quotes.
    One from Erdogan PM of Turkey a so called moderate islamic country.
    There is no moderate islam, there is only islam.
    The mosques are our caserns and the minarets are our bayonets.
    The other one is from Boumedienne former president of Algeria and not even a fundamentalist.
    The west will be conquered with the womb of
    our women.
    Get a clue man, they are after us.

  19. “One from Erdogan PM of Turkey a so called moderate islamic country.”
    Would that Turkish government official be from the same Turkey that received US support of arms and finances, while the Turkish government brutalized the Kurds, it’s own citizens?
    You cannot label nearly 2 billion followers with the words of a single man. Are all Catholics pedophiles? Are all Germans’ Nazi’s?
    Why are you suggesting we take on a collectivist judgment?
    Would that Turkish government official be from the same Turkey that received US support while the Turkish government brutalized the Kurds, it’s own citizens?
    Do you understand the relationship between the US, Britain, and the Middle East/North Africa? Literally fueled by oil, the greatest kind of oil to date..lots and lots of energy..’one of the world’s greatest prizes’ – 1948, US Secretary of State Cordell Hull. A lot of US influence has gone into ensuring that oil keeps flowing at the desired rate, price, place, and end destination.

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