Only three years ago, the Liberals were flush with cash, with over $17 million flowing from the government allowance and contributions from supporters.
Fast forward to 2008. Of the 305-member list of top donors from 2005, a mere dozen have contributed the maximum to the Liberals this year, even though the limit is far lower.
No party that refuses to support their own, with their own money, has the right to demand so much as a nickel from any Canadian.
So much for the “existential threat”. If you want them to exist, then get out your cheque book and shut the hell up.
The public was in a total uproar, and The Opposition had every right to write a letter of non-confidence in the government, on the public’s behalf.
This time The Opposition are not fighting for the public, but out of concern for losing *their* entitlements from the taxpayer.
The “motivation” of the opposition is irrelevant in the eyes of the constitutional framework that allowed the current situation. Granted, motivation can and will play a role in any action the GG takes after the coalition pulls the trigger but as far as actually pulling the trigger goes, it’s completely legal and democratic as outlined in our governing documents.
It sucks, but it is what it is. Sniveling about it makes us look like hypocrites…
Supporting this coalition means supporting Gilles Duceppe because we all know that we will be pulling the strings of Dion & Layton at every turn.This makes you non-Canadian, sir.
Politics makes strange bedfellows.
Kathryn: No he doesn’t. That letter said that if the governing party asked the GG to dissolve Parliament, she consider all of her options, including the possibility of a coalition of the opposition parties. It didn’t say a thing about the opposition parties asking her to remove the governing party to install them instead.
Wake up! When the GG is asked to dissolve parliament, on a vote of non-confidence, she has one of 2 options;
1. look at a coalition, or,
2. an election.
We just had an election. 6 weeks ago. The odds of her allowing a do-over are somewhere between slim and none, hence the focus on the coalition…
Conditions have changed since Harper signed that letter, yes, but the rules haven’t changed. It’s legal and it’s democratic. We have to play by the rules as they are, not as we wished they are. Get over it.
As Canada sails into treacherous economic waters, we have far too many political pundits, that appear to support the Liberal Party, in this brazen move to seize power, after being soundly rejected in a general election only a few weeks ago.
Are these pundits now telling Canadians, that Stephane Dion is the best leader ( or are we picking the worst) the country has to lead us in these perilous times? Are these same pundits telling us now, that we must incorporate NDP philosophy into what measures and stimulus we must now give the economy?
Are these pundits telling us that we should give the balance of power and effective control of the government to a separatist party like the Bloc, who have maintained for years they have no interest in what happens to Canada, and are only interested in what is good for Quebec and that they want to see Quebec separate from the rest of Canada.
Now the Liberals and NDP are telling us, we should turn to the Bloc, so we can right the economic ship of the country,and the fact that political pundits aren’t jumping out of their skin at this suggestion is a huge disappointment. I have always believed that these pundits are also Canadians, with Canadian values, and were sincere when they wrote and commented about the danger of the Bloc for this country, and why we must take uncompromising measures, and there is no limit to the sacrifice we should make to preserve our country and its’ values – I feel abandoned and frustrated.
As Canada sails into treacherous economic waters, we have far too many political pundits, that appear to support the Liberal Party, in this brazen move to seize power, after being soundly rejected in a general election only a few weeks ago.
Are these pundits now telling Canadians, that Stephane Dion is the best leader ( or are we picking the worst) the country has to lead us in these perilous times? Are these same pundits telling us now, that we must incorporate NDP philosophy into what measures and stimulus we must now give the economy?
Are these pundits telling us that we should give the balance of power and effective control of the government to a separatist party like the Bloc, who have maintained for years they have no interest in what happens to Canada, and are only interested in what is good for Quebec and that they want to see Quebec separate from the rest of Canada.
Now the Liberals and NDP are telling us, we should turn to the Bloc, so we can right the economic ship of the country,and the fact that political pundits aren’t jumping out of their skin at this suggestion is a huge disappointment. I have always believed that these pundits are also Canadians, with Canadian values, and were sincere when they wrote and commented about the danger of the Bloc for this country, and why we must take uncompromising measures, and there is no limit to the sacrifice we should make to preserve our country and its’ values – I feel abandoned and frustrated.
Perhaps it should be time for a forensic audit – could the cash gone to an advertising company?
What the Conservatives should do is advance an economic stimulus package AND make the cuts to the political parties. Then see what the “opposition” parties decide to do. They have been saying all along (actually, they have been LYING all along) that their opposition is not due to the cuts to their parties. Let them prove it.
And to Manny the mouth….the fact is, that Liberals and their socialist and Marxist friends have this sense of entitlement right in their DNA. The world does NOT owe them a living.
The Liberals — nee the party that keeps the country together — are going to be hooped by this, one way or another. All that remains to be seen whether or not their pathetic display will, in the interim, hoop the country as well, and at the worst possible time. As with so many other issues that the media lags behind voters on, the Lib/NDP/BQ’s fake outrage that it’s undemocratic for their supporters to throw them a couple of bucks is going to bite them in the ass.
If the LPC forms a coalition government with the *formalized* — more on that in a second — support of a party whose sole raison d’etre is to break up the country, it’s going to cost them for many years — decades — to come. If, instead, we go to an election, their pathetic, desperate, morally-rudderless climbing-into-bed with the separatists is simply going to cost them sooner rather than later.
An article in the G&M says that there are several scenarios if The Snouts’ motion passes:
1) The PM could (and he will, if it comes to that) ask the GG call an election. Ms. Jean could either agree or refuse, but in light of the fact (and this is one of the talking points in the “leaked” memo to Cons mps) that not one single person in the country voted in the last election for a coalition government that includes the separatists, I don’t see how she could refuse a request to let the voters, instead of the three losing parties in the last election, decide who forms the government.
2) This next scenario is, IMO, where the long-term harm to the LPC would occur: the Snouts “would have to…make a public commitment to govern as a partnership ‘for a period of say, two years’…” In other words, the coalition that not one Canadian voted for would be formally partnered with the Separatists, inasmuch as in order for the GG to give the nod to the Snout coalition, the BQ would first *have to* give her their assurance that they will vote with an NDP/Lib coalition for a period of several years on every single confidence vote — meaning, a de facto separatist coalition would form Canada’s government.
Further, since everyone in the country, including the GG, knows that the Libs are absolutely, positively NOT going to run in the next election, whenever that may be, as part of a coalition party with the separatists, any Snout proposal to form a government would clearly be not sincere, not long-term, not conducive to stability, and not in the best interests of the country.
PS: How did this thread become about Manny? No wonder he comments here so eagerly.
This is for those who believe by voting you donate $2 to your party. NO,you did not.If there are ten of you sitting around a table at Starbucks and you all voted liberal,you did not donate $20 to the liberals. What you did was take $20 out of the treasury and passed it on to the liberals,and that is $20 less to run the programs that you covet so much. Now,on the other hand if you actually took a twenty out of your pocket and sent it directly to the Liberals,then you could feel smug.
Manny let’s review, so you can understand what is actually happening. The opposition is not interested in the dissolution of parliament leading to an election. They want GG to give them power, but first refusing to dissolve parliament, and then meeting with them and granting them government.
Now listen carefully – WITHOUT AN ELECTION.
Harper never approached, or proposed to approach GG, when Martin was PM. He was clear that he wanted an election.
How many times do people have to be told there is a difference between a minority and coalition government. A minority situation is where parties support the government, informally or otherwise, so they can pass legislation. A coalition is a shared power situation, where not only do other parties support the government, but they are part of the government, with cabinet representation (ie-Gilles Duceppe as Deputy PM and in Cabinet, with Jack Layton as say, Environment Minister).
Manny, can you point to a single example, in Canadian history, of two parties in a coalition, where they still needed the minority support of a third party (Hint: it has NEVER happened).
And it won’t happen here either. When we see a legislative agenda proposal with all three opposition parties, signed on as part of the government, with cabinet ministers from all three parties, then we start to enter the realm of possibility.
That would require separatists sitting at the cabinet table with Duceppe likely Deputy PM (after all he more seats than NDP).
Canada is not in crisis right now; there is no World War like there was in the last coalition government (and I think the only one in Canadian history).
Almost as rare is a situation where a minority gets cobbled together and replaces sitting government without benefit of election. Are NDP and Libs proposing to defeat Harper government, and then go to election as coalition? Not from what I’ve heard. Combining their votes/seats at last election is irrelevant – they ran as separate parties with separate platforms (remember Layton saying he was applying for job as PM?)
Now do you understand why this isn’t going to happen. These nuances actually matter, and would colour, big time, the decisions of the GG if she were approached with this.
History shows that is Mr Harper approached her for disolution, she would likely grant the request. That’s why this coalition idea is a pipe dream, ungrounded in history, convention or law. There is no precedent for a coalition of two parties taking power when they don’t have a majority of seats.
Isn’t it amazing how there are so damned many instant experts on constitutional matters?
It’s speculation gone amok intertwined with partisan wishful thinking.
However, we can probably assume the GG will need a great deal of advice to get through this crisis created by lust for power by the Liberals. The NDP is more than a willing whore, it may be their only chance in history of getting their grubby hands on the kitty. Scary times. Hold onto your wallets.
Canadians haven’t heard from the western separatists yet, regarding the socialist / communist plot by including Duceppes’s blockheads.
But I am sure they will.
Richard, people are so not snivelling this time around!
They are angry!
And that is when things start to shift in politics!
For that we can be grateful, and that is about the only thing we could be grateful for this time around.
Richard, people are so not snivelling this time around!
When we’re complaining that it’s “undemocratic”, even after our own team used the exact same tactics, not that long ago, we’re sniveling.
If we, as conservatives, are going to come out of this ahead of the game, there needs to be less focus on the “undemocratic” B.S. being spun by the adolescents in the CPC war room and more focus on the real arguments.
You tink hit izzy hobbyratings wid no taxis?
Exactly right, Kate.
CPC rule changes have meant that corps can no longer buy elections and now the siphon in the public trough is going to be snipped. We see the Liberals have very little in terms of grassroots financial support.
They still do not seem to understand that they need to REBUILD.
I’m waiting to hear the Conservative Party announce that they’re REFUNDING the per vote tax dollars they are receiving. After all, it’s a matter of principle, isn’t it?
Well, Mr. Harper?
richard evans, perhaps I misunderstand you. What are you talking about, when you say that’our own team used the exact same tactics not so long ago’.
Did the Conservative Party ever suggest, if a financial Liberal bill was defeated, that instead of an election, they’d insist on setting up a coalition govt with the NDP and the Bloc? I missed that event in our history.
That letter of Sept 9/04 certainly never suggests it. It doesn’t discuss a falling of the Liberal govt because of a financial bill. It instead points out that the Liberal govt has an agenda of insisting that its bills be passed or it will call a general election.
That letter instead suggests that instead of constantly ‘going to an election’ as Chretien did, for strategic reasons, that all parties ought to be consulted about the situation. There is no suggestion in that letter, of a coalition between the CPC, the NDP and the Bloc. Can you imagine such a coalition?
ET; After a non-confidence vote, a coalition is the first option that the GG has to consider. If that’s not doable, then the writ gets dropped as it did 2 elections ago. This time it looks as though a coalition may be doable and the GG will have to go with it unless she, for some reason, doesn’t see it as a viable option.
There’s an order of operations, as outlined in the constitution, that needs to be followed.
thewestwantsout.com
May be activated a little sooner than I thought.
…further…
What kind of “options” do you folks think Harper was referring to in his letter? That the GG consider eating strawberry shortcake while standing on her head?
djb:
In a democracy, all rules and laws apply equally to all parties.
Until the rules are changed, there is no stupulation to refund funds already received retroactively.
Under the new proposal, which would apply to all parties equally, the Conservative Party is, in fact would give up the highest proportion of funding based on the last election results.
Would you be willing to support your party of choice with money from your own pocket?
How could anyone in their right mind ever consider the three ringed circus being proposed by the “three amigos” to be in any way shape or form anywhere near being a stable situation?
The opposition parties are angry that there was no “stimulus package” included in the financial statement that said political parties should lead by example and tighten their belts. The financial stimulation has already been delivered by buying 75 billion dollars of mortgages from the banks thus allieviating the credit crunch that was beginning to trouble the Canadian economy. The opposition parties, liebrals and dippers, are also wailing that excessive amounts of taxpayers money should be thrown at industies that are having a tough time in this ecomony, for a myriad of reasons. Mostly the reason is no customers. Auto makers are overstocked because the U.S. is definately having a financial meltdown and they themselves cannot keep their overpaid heavily unionized workers in the rust-belt producing product, instead using their non-unionized factories of the southern states producing. The forestry industry is in slowdown because the market (U.S.) has evaporated due to the real-estate meltdown. There is no place at this moment to sell the products this country produces in abundance save for food and energy. The president-elect of the U.S. has to come up with a plan to save their economy but cannot implement anything until after Jan. 20. So the only option left for a responsible government is to wait and see before committing more resources. The bloc is only interested in receiving more largess from the ROC no matter the persieved reason. Scant weeks ago during the election campaign the opposition parties were screaming for more “green” consciousness from the public, ie fewer cars, less co2, less forest being cut, they have gotten their wish and we the public have gotten a preview of life under the liberals/ndp/bloc (socialists) if they follow the global warming due to human activity farce.
“I see this thug Chretien is still getting honorary degrees from universities.”
Paul Wells is also a big fan of the Shawinigan Strangler.
I’d rather spend $300 million for another election than give it to the CAW.
How’s that for a stimulant package?
O Bananada!
Our homely and naive land!
True co-dependent love in all wry sons command.
With sinking hearts see tax rates rise,
The True North tax and flee!
From far and wide,
O Bananada, we stand on guard for RCMP
Blogs take our hand polygamous and free!
O Bananada, we stand on guard for RCMP.
O Bananada, we stand on guard for RCMP
Orville. just look at the faces of the so called pundits. These are the angriest self loathing twits on the planet. and their opinions are not worth the paper they post on. The real people are the ones to listen to not some loser like Don Martin or Jim “Che” Travers.
Hmm, let’s shake this up a bit…
“bartinsky. just look at the writings of the so called bloggers. These are the angriest self loathing twits on the planet. and their opinions are not worth the bandwidth they post on. The real people are the ones to listen to not some loser like (conservative blogger) or (conservative blogger).”
Or is there something wrong with my logic here?
I am absolutely convinced that listening/watching/reading anything connected to the CBC directly leads to a massive decrease in IQ. Don’t believe me? Then take a look at the many comments here: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/11/29/coalition.html#socialcomments
Just imagine … JUST IMAGINE if the Conservatives had pulled such a stunt as the Liberals are now contemplating. Do you think these same people would be saying the same things as they are now? Of course not! Absolutely and complete hypocrites!!!
richard evans – could you provide the constitutional rule that states that after a non-confidence vote, the GG HAS to consider a coalition?
After all, it’s not in the constitution, as far as I know, that the loss of confidence leads to..anything. It’s a tradition. We all know that Paul Martin’s govt ignored several non-confidence votes.
Coalition? That would require the resignation of the current govt! But no federal govt in Canadian history has ever resigned due to a loss of confidence; it has instead, sought dissolution and a general election, and it remained in power until the results of that election. (No, the Liberal govt under Wm Lyon M-K resigned before the loss of confidence).
What we have here is a blatant undemocratic attempt by the Liberals-NDP to take power, to move themselves in as the Canadian government, without the due process of an election. That is outrageous. They are ignoring the right of the duly elected government to govern.
Nor is there anything in the constitution, as far as I can see, about the legality of a coalition government – an unelected one that has not been put forth to the people.
Remember, if the Liberals-NDP ‘coalesce’ their numbers will still fall short of the CPC numbers, and that means that they cannot govern without the Bloc, a separatiste party focused only on Quebec and hostile to Canada. Hmm.
If the lib’s, ndp and bloc want a coalition and can work out a deal between themselves and approach “GG” with a working agenda after a vote of non confidence motion. They can obviously do this in parliamentary rules.
I think that instead of the West screaming of separation every Canadian that does not believe in this Parliament leadership should go on a general strike. This would be across Canada so fast and it would bring the politicians to their knees and maybe they start to listen. In fact it would bring the bureaucracy down.
Think about it, no businesses running, no wages payed, no taxes collected and that is just a few things the people of Canada could do.
Could somebody please check out Scott Reid’s column in the Globe and tell me if it qualifies as hate speech? Thanks.
From Scott Reid’s Globe article speaking of PM Harper;
“Their imperative could not be more clear: kill him. Kill him dead. Do not, whatever you do, provide him with”
That is clearly over the line Joanne.
Bruce, totally. I cannot imagine any media outlet allowing such a thing to be said about any opposition leader.
That Reid column cannot go unchallenged. That is beyond the pale but not surprising coming from that individual.
Scott Reid’s opinion @ the G&M was clearly over the top and uncalled for. Again though politics as a bloodsport is OK as long as the LPC are doing it. Funny that eh?
Seriously though, if Harper doesn’t have anything else going on over this I will be disappointed in the war room efforts as this will have proven to of been a complete waste of time.
Over at Stephen Taylor’s the rumour now is that the Conservatives may prorogue parliament until they present the budget in six or seven weeks.
This is an excellent idea, it will give the government plenty of time to communicate their position.
Meanwhile, the Liberals and NDP will foaming at the mouth all through Christmas showing Canada once again how unfit they are to be the government.
Legally, the only person who can ask for the dissolution of parliament to the GG is the Prime Minister. The Opposition Parties have no such right.
Furthermore, the Opposition Parties cannot, on their own, legally and constitutionally, first move no-confidence and then, without an election, insist that they be installed as the ‘legitimate’ government. This can’t be done.
Note that the legal govt, in this case, the CPC, would FIRST have to resign! The GG can’t force the govt to resign, for that would go against the will of the electorate.
And, the Liberals-NDP can’t declare themselves as the govt, for that too would go against the will of the electorate.
So – what’s going on? We all know that the real reason for the Opposition (all 3 parties) apocalyptic hysteria is the threat of that loss of feeding at the taxpayer’s trough. They aren’t interested in Canada or the economy – and they have no plan.
Surely you can’t consider flinging money at various insolvent industries a PLAN? That won’t solve anything and will make the economy worse, by putting us into a deficit without dealing with the rotten infrastructure of these companies.
Again, I’m stunned that the Liberals-NDP would, instead of working with the govt, as they promised to do, instead reject such an action and instead, attempt to steal power away from the electorate.
In Canada! A group of politicians denying the will of the electorate and attempting to take over the duly-elected government. How? By relying on bribes. Isn’t that the Liberal style? Isn’t that how they have governed for years?
Bribes to the NDP, parceling out juicy cabinet positions to the NDP to make them Join The Coup! And what are they giving to the separatiste party, the Bloc – a party that rejects Canada and Canadians and whose only interest is in the Canadian taxpayer’s contribution to their pensions and benefits. What are they giving to the Bloc? More bribes?
Outrageous abuse of the electorate and a denial of democracy. Write to your MP, write to the Corrupt MSM. Write and insist on democracy.
NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.
(yes, I’m shouting)
From above:
Pardon me if I’ve got this wrong but this coalition of Libs and Dips that is being cobbled together by Chretien/Broadbent/Dion/Layton/Rae/Ignatief to assume power will have, according to the last election, a total of 114 seats in the HoC while the CPC will have 143 seats therefore the coalition will require 30 plus seats more to pass any legislation that they table. Even to the trolls here it must be fairly evident that those seats or votes can only come from the Bloc.
Why should we allow the Bloc to hold the balance of power when 75% of the country can neither vote FOR or AGAINST that party?
Somebody explain that to me.
By the way, to clear up further the confusion about King’s 1925 ‘coalition’, this is a completely different scenario from the one that the Liberals-NDP-Bloc are attempting.
And by the way, I note again that the Liberal mode of obtaining power, yet again, reeks of corruption. A few years ago, it was Adscam, where they used the taxpayers’ millions to sneak money, via ad firms, to actually pay for their re-election campaigns in Quebec.
Now, the Liberals are yet again abusing the taxpayer. First, they are up in arms (and Scott Reid’s urging people to Kill Harper is an example) about losing their taxpayer funding, but above all, they are ignoring the democratic process in their attempt to take power away from the legitimate government.
Back to King. He was already in power. Got that? His gov’t was already duly elected and ratified by the GG. He then called an election. He lost to the Conservatives. The Conservatives got 116 seats. King’s Liberals got only 99, and the Progressives got 24. But, instead of resigning after this election and handing power over to the majority, the Conservatives – King refused to resign. He said he’d govern with the 24 seats as a Coalition! And since he hadn’t resigned, there was nothing to be done.
Then, he wanted yet another election. The GG refused (and the constitutionality of this refusal is debated)..and instead said that the Conservatives, who after all had legitimately won the election, should govern.
So, the King situation was completely different from the current one. Remember, he was legitimately in power when he called that election. Today, neither the Liberals nor the NDP nor the Bloc are in legitimate power. Only Harper’s govt has been legitimized both by the electorate AND by its due acknowledgment by the GG. Once those actions are done – that ‘presented to the GG’ government – is legitimate. It can only stop existing when the PM resigns.
How dare the Liberals-NDP attempt to steal legitimate power away from the govt and the people? I am astonished at the arrogance, at the utter illegality of it.
There’s a very good analysis of confidence and due process. I won’t post the link because I’ll be sent to the corner.
Google ‘Donald Desserud’. The Confidence convention under the Canadian parliamentary system. It’s worth the read for the historical, legal and political analysis – and it shows that the Liberals-NDP are clearly ‘out to lunch’.
qwerty1: “I’ve come to the conclusion that the NDP missed the opportunity of a political lifetime for the short term chance of a few cabinet posts.” I also think the NDP missed the boat on this one. Also, because Harper’s move would have been a catalyst for lefties actually writing cheques to their respective parties. They probably would all have ended up better off than just the $1.95 subsidy. I think NDP are too accustomed to knee-jerk outrage to think strategically. They could have negotiated with Harper to support the update if he got rid of the union piece. Layton would have looked like a hero. I wonder if this might be why Harper included the union thing — which seems not especially valuable at this point. If yes, then Harper erred in overestimating his opponents. Too bad.
A big part of the sickness in Canadian politics is the presence of the Bloc. Remove the seats held by the Bloc and the Conservatives have a solid majority. The Conservatives were close to having a majority when support slipped away in Quebec in favour of the Bloc. The game that Quebecers are playing is to support the Bloc as a “wedge” in Canadian politics. Doesn’t matter that the Conservatives treated them very well in the previous government, their perception is that they can get all kinds of special favours by continuing to support the Blocm and they do not appreciate the potential consequences. In this case, what they have wrought is serious political instability, risking the fiscal well being of all of Canada. I think we have Bloc supporters to thank for the current crisis. If this situation is not resolved quickly and with minimal upheaval, their narrow self-interest will have a serious negative financial impact.
ET, it is you who is out to lunch. Again.
It is axiomatic to parliamentary government that the cabinet must enjoy the confidence of the majority of elected members of the legislature…..
An incumbent Prime Minister has the right to meet Parliament after a minority election, and the Governor General has the duty to appoint another if the incumbent resigns for whatever reason. However, it is the House of Commons that decides who may actually govern.
http://www.parl.gc.ca/InfoParl/english/issue.htm?param=168&art=1143
And all this bleating about democracy and the electorate. The Libs and NDP garnered 44% of the popular vote in the last election the Cons only 38%. That the Cons got as many seats as they did is but a quirk of the crap shoot that is the first past the post. I don’t hear you bellyaching for a system in which every vote counts. You want democracy, but not too much democracy, only the kind that favours your side, the kind where you don’t have to fool some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time, only enough people at the right time so as to win a plurality.
Harper’s too cute ploy to cut public per vote funding betrays a mind so crass, so cynical, and so petty, that he is completely unqualified to govern this nation.
Having the usual for lunch manny?
foobert,
Just between you and I…The fact that there is a BQ is a travesty in itself.
Having the usual for lunch manny?
Yeah, a barley sandwich. How’d ya guess.
foobert,
Just between you and I…The fact that there is a BQ is a travesty in itself.
Even though they are duly elected Members of Parliament, voted in by citizens of Canada??
Yeah, a barley sandwich.
Farm grown barley?
Even though they are duly elected Members of Parliament, voted in by citizens of Canada??
Like foobert I was unable to vote for or against the BQ.
Farm grown barley?
I would assume so. What’s your point?
Like foobert I was unable to vote for or against the BQ.
Again, your point is??