One factory relocation at a time;
They sat silently through two lectures, but then they couldn’t control their anger any longer. The civil servants from the Environment Ministry, the Environment Agency and the German Emissions Trading Authority made it sound easy for industry to take up carbon trading. It was just too much for the managers to tolerate.
“If that’s the shape the trading will take, we will simply move our cement operation to Ukraine,” a cement factory manager shouted into the lecture hall. “Then there won’t be any trading here, nothing will be produced here anymore — the lights will simply go out here.”
[…]
“In Germany the raw-material chemical industry, companies from the iron and steel sector, lime producers, aluminium producers and refineries might be affected,” Franzjosef Schafhausen, the Environment Ministry’s undersecretary, said at the Bonn conference. Felix Matthes, coordinator for energy and climate protection at the Institute for Applied Ecology, added: “The CO2 price signal prompts shifts in production and investment. Yet it doesn’t lead to lower overall emissions, as the production and investment at the company’s new sites will not be subject to CO2 pricing, either now or in the near future.”
The problems with carbon trading schemes could all be resolved, of course, by putting sociology professors in charge of management;
“This principle worked in other countries, so when people say it’s risky, it’s not like we’re inventing it from nowhere. We’re not changing Canada in a kind of laboratory.”
I hypothesize that carbon taxes will actually cause increases in CO2 production.
Reasoning: the materials will be produced, period, and as the article demonstrates, industry will find a locale in which to produce the goods. Do any of us think that China, India, or any other regime that has not taken a hit on the AGW pipe will not welcome these industries?
If they are materials destined for secondary manufacturing, how will the materials get to secondary manufacturing? By transport. Same CO2 produced in manufacturing of the primary, different locale, same atmosphere; more CO2 produced moving material that shouldn’t need to be moved so far. Net increase in CO2.
Sociology professors should know, if anyone, the consequences of extremely high unemployment. Some passively accept their fate. Others do not.
The moment the capitalists move out, the wealth engine that powers the socialist state will be removed, and Germany will flounder.
Exactly, shaken. But I need someone to explain the benefits of carbon trading. I’m simply too dumb to grasp it.
From what I can gather, you set up a large Monopoly board. Some areas are defined as Declared Carbon Producers (DCP). Some areas are defined as Non-Declared Carbon Producers (NDCP). Other areas are defined as Non-Carbon Producers (NCP). Or White, Black and Green.
Now, the Game, if I understand it, is that the Whites, the DCP, can transform to Green NCP by giving money to either the Blacks NDCP or the Greens NCP. It’s called carbon-trading. The money is a symbol for their carbon.
So, instead of doing anything about the carbon, they symbolize it by money..and get rid of the money.
The Blacks, by the way, eg, China and India, produce LOTS of carbon but they are excluded by the UN, the manufacturer of this Game, from being allowed to get rid of carbon. They can’t get rid of their carbon by symbolizing it as money and giving it to other countries. Sigh.
Now, both the Blacks and the Greens receive LOTS of money. They then use this money to set up emission-producing factories. They are, remember, exempt from any emissions or pollution standards.
So, over the entire Monopoly board, the emissions, everywhere – among the Whites, Blacks and Greens..go up. And up.
So – what have I misunderstood? Is there a handbook for this UN Game?
So what exactly will this tax accomplish that all the other taxes and rising prices wont? Other than the name, how is this tax actually different from any other? Lib/socialists seem to think that people will change their behavior based on the name applied to a certain tax. In fact, people don’t give a hoot what the tax is called. It could be called the “anti-Martian-invasion tax” for all anyone cares. If a tax is needed to discourage people from using certain fuels, then rising prices are taking care of that quite nicely thank you. The source of all this lunacy as I see it lies in the fact that most people’s knowledge of economics, lib-lefties in particular, peaked at the level of a kid’s lemonade stand.
“If that’s the shape the trading will take, we will simply move our cement operation to Ukraine,” a cement factory manager shouted into the lecture hall. “Then there won’t be any trading here, nothing will be produced here anymore — the lights will simply go out here.”
Exactly. This has been happening in California for some years now, and I plan to join the exodus soon. I paid more than U$13,000 to the state of California in 2007 income taxes, and an additional U$2,500 to Santa Clara county in property taxes. I’m single, with no children. I attended private schools – in a different state. I require very little in the way of government servies. When I leave, those state income taxes will leave with me. The new owner of my home will almost certainly be paying approximately U$6,000 annually in property taxes, because of the way that property taxes work in California, but it’s likely that there will be a net loss in overall tax revenue and it’s quite possible that there will be an increase in the demand for government services (if, for example, the people who buy my home have a child in public schools).
People who create wealth have the ability to move and create the wealth elsewhere; wise governments recognize that.
Once again you have to buy the premise and assuming you do then cap and trade is a good way to have things work.
BUT BUT BUT
Certain conditions must be in place
1) Certification that what you are trading is actually real. Nothing worse than trading for a carbon credit that doesnt exist or isnt real.
This is the issue of transborder carbon trading…how do you know that bolivina credit was really a reduction
2) That everyone needs to be part of it
3) Flowing from 2)…if everyone isnt part of it it means that the costs you impose on yourself need to be low to prevent people from moving. Any industry that is mobile, whether it is short or medium term, will be sensitive to the cost conditions. Sitting ducks, like oil extraction have to pay no matter what.
All arguments point to there being the need to have EVRYONE part of this for it to work. Without that then any serious effort is spitting in the wind and the best you can hope for is marginal reductions but you get the trading infrastructure, the market, in place. Prices will remain low and only the easiest reductions will take place.
If the above is the case you are now into the realm of saying what would be the difference between this and intensity targets, or regulation in other words.
Regulation allows you control and monitor what is within your part of political and legal control. As well, if you are too tight you can relaxx because of unintended consequenes or alternatively tighten based on success or lack thereof. But dont fool yourself, changing the planets amount of CO2 cannot happen until there is worldwide signon and enforcement.
Once again assuming you even accept the premise that CO2 is a major threat to the climate, which at this stage is an unproven hypothesis that based on assertions and not facts at this stage.
I too fail to see or grasp the logic in carbon trading. You tax us here so it’s uneconomical to produce something thereby closing our plants and throwing our workers out of work to sent these jobs and businesses to countries that are heavy polluters with very few or no regulations? Am I right so far? What am I missing? I do get the part where shysters in the middle rip everyone off but that’s about it.
The closest I could come to an explanation that I understand is at cheatneutral.com Very entertaining
I hoping that a green/carbony peacer with a smart car runs over Dion.
The EPA Instruction Manual, courtesy Hussein’s Democ-rats. It’s Free.
…-
“The Lawnmower Men”
“… if you want to know what he [Goreacle] and his acolytes think this means in practice, the Environmental Protection Agency has just published the instruction manual.”
“In a huge document released last Friday, the EPA lays out the thousands of carbon controls with which they’d like to shackle the whole economy. Central planning is too artful a term for the EPA’s nanomanagement. Thankfully none of it has the force of law — yet.”
http://tinyurl.com/6ksauk (wsj)
The ‘GREEN SHIFT’ reminds me of the proffessor that thouhght that if he fed his mule a little less every day soon he would’nt have to feed it at all and he could sell his hay.He had to repeat the experiment many times as the damn mule would up and die on him therefor ruining his experiment.Consequenses of his experement never entered his head.
Will wonders never cease?
The Germans are threatening to invade the Ukraine with cement factories!
Of course when the Germans invaded the last time, they were originally celebrated as saviour’s from the hideous Stalinists who starved them out in the 1930s; that is until the shooting started.
I’m sure the Ukranian economy will be delighted to accept some German investment. This should serve as a shot across the bow to other CO2 challenged economy’s; that investment will simply shutter up and move elsewhere where the ridiculous cap n trade attempts to insert its tentacles.
Pretty soon the Black Forest will reach straight up the Rhine valley as German industry ‘invades’ post-Communist economies.
Next news story: Mercedes and BMW relocate to Moscow and german economic domination is complete!
Germany will be so green they won’t have any jobs to go to!!
CHEERS
Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht,Commander in Chief
Frankenstein Battalion
2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von Baden(Rheinisches) Nr.7(Saarbrucken)
Knecht Rupprecht Division
Hans Corps
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
“But dont fool yourself, changing the planets amount of CO2 cannot happen until there is worldwide signon and enforcement.”
Who’s fooling whom?
In regard’s to the timestranscript article, pushing Dion’s tax shift thingy…
“This principle worked in other countries, so when people say it’s risky, it’s not like we’re inventing it from nowhere. We’re not changing Canada in a kind of laboratory.”
So he say’s he knows what he’s doing, and implies that he knows the outcome.
Then, in the same article, he contradicts himself;
” He also said they know this plan will reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but can’t say for sure by how much until they see how industry reacts once it’s implemented.”
They will have to “see how industry reacts once it’s implemented”..? ? ? That doesn’t sound like he knows what is going to happen. I can guess.
I can guess without my flower covered magical fantasy projection glasses on. You know, the ones that let you invent new technology over night…
“Dion said carbon pricing will speed up the development of more efficient technology in that industry and the end result should be operational costs that eventually drop with greater fuel efficiency?
So, good luck industry. Better develop some technology or you will have to pass those costs on to the consumer. Maybe even relocate to the Ukraine.
WS: “I too fail to see or grasp the logic in carbon trading. You tax us here so it’s uneconomical to produce something thereby closing our plants and throwing our workers out of work to sent these jobs and businesses to countries that are heavy polluters with very few or no regulations? Am I right so far? What am I missing? I do get the part where shysters in the middle rip everyone off but that’s about it.”
No, you must listen more closely to the sociology professor. When you tax industry, they invest money. So, when a company produces widgets, and you tax the production of them, the company simply invests in something else besides widgets, isn’t that right?
No, it’s not right, of course. If they can, they usually pass the tax through to the consumer; or, they close the plant; or they move to a juristiction that doesn’t tax production of widgets.
Sociology professors think we can tax our way to prosperity; never mind that the price of widgets has more than doubled in the past four years, that has no effect; but a carbon tax on them will magically turn us all into non-widgeters.
Just who is Dion trying to kid? While I can’t think of an example, can anyone tell me when the public’s imagination, and their vote, was captured with a new tax? Worked for Joe Clark, eh? NOT!!
Let’s put all our cards on the table, everyone. Go ahead Mr sociology professor, throw down the gauntlet, force an election. Frankly I’m sick of his ridiculous arguments. Test them with the electorate; or shut uppa your face and go back and hide behind the curtain.
Lets not give all the credit to the Germans.
Gordon Campbell’s brand new B.C. carbon tax is showing early signs of success.
is so izzy you pipples. we haf only to move dis tar sand plant to new brunswick. and spread da welt and the grin ouse gisses equal to canada.-Borat Dion.
cal2….so funny it should be against the law……oh wait…..HRC’s r watching…….funny stuff dude!
carbon trading. a tax on the stupid. when the hell will thinking people realize that soialism is slavery. stupid, stupid, stupid.
Yes, and once the businesses are gone it takes a lot to bring them back. Witness Sask. NDP
Actually, Germany may have solved the problem of how to finance their welfare system – by taxing carbon, they generate enough “wealth” to keep the balls up in the air a generation or so longer, while the baby boomers die off and stop being such a drain on resources.
Out here in BC, Premier Gordo and his crew put in a carbon tax that will nicely cover the cost of the Olympic Games in 2010, and they can then ease off on the taxes before too many people smarten up and throw them out of office. After all, by 2015 or so it will become patently obvious to even the least observant greenie that climate change is and has always been a hoax. A new crisis will need to be invented.
So BCLibs are thinking in terms of a five year plan, while the Germans are into something a little longer term. Same principal, though.
Mao Stlong say, Green Shaft Contlors wolking in China.
Dion one-smart-foltune-cookie.
Pea-soup goody for Flenchmens; goody fol youse.
…-
“Beijing Begins Massive Olympic Shutdown
BEIJING — Beijing’s Olympic shutdown begins Sunday, a drastic plan to lift the Chinese capital’s gray shroud of pollution just three weeks ahead of the games.
Half of Beijing’s 3.3 million vehicles will be pulled off the roads and many polluting factories will be shuttered. Chemical plants, power stations and foundries left open have to cut emissions by 30 percent — and dust-spewing construction in the capital will be halted.
In a highly stage-managed Olympics aimed at showing off the rising power of the 21st century, no challenge is greater than producing crystalline air for 10,500 of the world’s greatest athletes.
“Pea-soup air at the opening ceremony would be their worst nightmare,” said Victor Cha, director of Asian Studies at Georgetown University.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,386565,00.html
Pesky humans – they adapt to easily.
“Europeans switching back to coal”
http://tinyurl.com/5njqbs
Quebec Hydro
Dion’s “green shaft” is a tool for Quebec Hydro to increase its net profit.
While Alberta’s “dirty” energy sector gets screwed in taxation, Quebec’s “clean” energy gets subsidized.
Dion wants to shift industry into Quebec.
The ROC doesn’t matter
Follow the money.
G, also follow the money into ‘Green Investment Accounts’. Connect the dots.
And in other news, I read in the past couple of days that PNB Paribas is on the SEC ‘no naked short’ emergency list? Oh oh, bad news! But on the list of 15 protected FI’s….
“carbon trading. a tax on the stupid.”
Yes old cracker this is what I’ve been trying to express unsuccessfully.
We here out west have no-one to blame but ourselves. We can, and always have been able to determine our own fate. We just choose to dig hole to stick our heads in. It is long past time we look at ourselves in the mirror and take responsibility for what has happened and what is to come. We owe it to our children not to repeat the mistakes of our parents generation(boomers).
Tks Shaken.
For those not familiar with Paribas;
Now add in the French connection.
“BNP Paribas (Euronext: BNP, TYO: 8665) is one of the main banks in Europe. It was created on 23 May 2000 through the merger of Banque Nationale de Paris (BNP) and Paribas. Together with Société Générale and Crédit Lyonnais (now known as LCL), it is one of the “three old” banks of France. It is a constituent of the CAC 40 index.” (wiki)
Dion’s french and domestic handlers are getting desperate for cash. Moving Canada into a regulated European economy is the dream of the few pulling his strings. It only works if the whole country is regulated.
Dion=snakeoil salesman
G, look at the ownership structure of BNP Paribas.
Shaken
“ownership structure of BNP Paribas.”
Help me out here please. I found the pie chart with a whack of companies invested, but not a list of those co’s. I did find the reference to the National Bank of Canada. Tks
Shaken;
I found the China connection to Paribas. Its big.
“For the conversion project, the bank increased the capital of BNP Paribas (China) Limited to 4 billion yuan, putting it on a level playing field with most of its foreign competitors.”
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90778/90857/90862/6438018.html
It’s like money laundering based on carbon offsets. Uncle Maurice indeed.
The sub/prime fiasco will look like peanuts if this world Carbon offsets scam goes bust.
If Canadians are stupid enough to elect Dion, and let him implement this tax scheme without hanging him first – they deserve what they get: massive unemployment, crushing taxes, and in all liklihood – liberal corruption out the wazoo.
I think Alberta needs to seperate from Canada. I can’t tell if Dion is driven by idiocy or criminal motives. Cripes, we just got rid of one fwench idiot in the PMO, surely we don’t need another one so soon.
Carbon trading is a forced activity of no economic or practical value, except to the bureaucracies.
4 words….Republic or Western Canada.
it looks like the brits are still drinking the koolaide.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/19/channel4.climatechange
heef da Marshmalowtimes swallowink mine grenchaf den hits issy for efferbodyones. Dose hin datlantic harrya liffed hin doe shin hant knowing many tings.
Run little lemmings run, so say’s Nanny State, it must be true. How to commit economic suicide by stupidity. The greenies must be estatic. They just can’t wait until everyone is back in a wattle & daub hut, with out door out-houses that you rent. Must recycle you know. There is money to be made you see. Then Politicians will literly tax the crap out of you.
So maybe someone should bring this sham to McGuinty’ s attention. He thinks he has done something wonderful by signing on to the cap and trade scheme. He should realize that many Ontarians are not pleased.
The sham is not McGuinty signing on,its that McGuinty is still in office.These self important people like McGuinty smile and lie ,smile and lie.Yet the now generation follow like Zombies and say look at me i am a good person,i beleive in global warming ,i want to save the planet for my children and such foolish crap.Well they are making the planet worse and making millionaires out of scammers.Imagine going out and buying a cleaning product to clean your toilet and bath tub that is chemical free or whatever because you think your a goodie 2 shoes and beleive it will do the same as a disinfectant but it doesnt clean anything,but leaves the filth and bacteria.Do you still feel good???Well apparently the idiot greenies feel good,because this is the same as buying carbon credits.Take tax payers hard earned tax money and buy carbon credits from scammers who increase the carbon by spewing more toxic chemicals into the air and opening more coal burning furnaces every day.But the Greenies feel good,saying look at me,look at me,i am a good person i bought carbon credits,i dont know why but i did.So i am saving the planet,i,m a hero.At the same time their children are coughing and breaking out in rashes from the toxins in the air and bacteria left by cleaners that dont work and a carbon scam that increases pollution.How can they not see it??How come they beleive in this crap??Because the media has been pumping this garbage into their little brains for years and the Liberals do the rest.SHAME on them for not researching and being so GD stupid that they would throw away our Health money ,our infrastructure money,our old age money,our way of life to some scam.
“He should realize that many Ontarians are not pleased.”
McGuinty like Al Gore and every other wing nut with their heads up ” Mother Natures butt” couldn’t give two hoots what the average serf thinks, as long as they can fleece you, and play the symbolism over substance card perpetually until the gas free cows come home.
They count on peoples soft sensibilities, and so does much of the media. Many Ontarians are getting what they deserve, or are about to get it, and its going to have to get much worse before many catch on.