Of note in the same story: the Liberals’ latest proposal to tackle gun crime – “reverse onus” bail conditions for those accused of gun crimes. In other words, it would be up to the accused to show why he should be released, rather than the Crown to show why he should be held. Hmm. I’m just trying to imagine what sort of evidence you’d have to produce to show why you should not be kept in jail. How do you prove you’re not a threat to society?
I’m sure this tests off the charts in the focus groups. But, um, doesn’t it sort of, you know, violate the Charter?[PM spokesman Scott] Reid acknowledged that the reverse onus provision will require justification under the Charter of Rights, but the Liberals believe the courts will recognize that “the importance of protecting citizens against gun violence is paramount.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that more or less the same fudge as Harper has taken on gay marriage: we’re confident the courts will see it our way? And what if they didn’t? Would the PM invoke the notwithstanding clause?
Good question. Now, someone needs to ask it.
Here’s another, from the comments;
Why is it that only lit 52 candles for the murder victims in Toronto – What about the 27 other murder victims? Don’t their lives count – the politicians wouldn’t be politicizing murder to suit thier own needs would they?
An odd question, but why is “Gun Violence” so much worse that “Knife Violence” or “Hatchet Violence”? A violent act is a violent act, what is used to implement said violent act is immaterial; the fact that a person decided cause another person harm is what is important.
The cause of Toronto’s gun problem is glaringly obvious: liberal laws and Liberal judges.
If the Tories said as much, they might be able to cut through a lot of the campaign clutter in Ontario. For once the biggest election fear in Toronto isn’t private health care.
We need stronger sentencing and parole laws, and judges closer to the mainstream. It’s that simple, and only one party can logically offer the solution.
NoOne, i agree, This morning, it was reported on CTV that there was one shooting and three stabbings in the first day of 2006. We have just got to have a ban on knives too.
Kate,
The irony is, while the SCC specifically refused to rule on the constitutionality of Tradd. Defn. of marriage (coupled with civil unions) in the SSM reference, it long ago decided that reverse onus penal provisions are unconstitutional (R. v. Oakes).
The most fundamental of all of our rights – the right to liberty – that one can be tossed aside for partisan political gain.
Apparantly WE can’t pick and choose what rights to defend, but MARTIN can.
The epitome of hypocricy.
Just watched Global Edmonton – they said that Winnepeg had 1 shooting and 8 stabbings, clearly guns are the root of the problem! Even if they only represent 11% of the weapons crimes reported.
Don’t worry about reverse onus – it’ll carry in the SCOC – they’re all Liberals!
Now that I think about, why is it that only lit 52 candles for the murder victims in Toronto – What about the 27 other murder victims? Don’t thier lives count – the politicians wouldn’t be politicizing murder to suit thier own needs would they?
It is not a matter of coincidence that statist socialists like Miller, McGuinty and Martin offer criminal justice solutions that are non linear with the charter’s guarantees of legal rights.
We have seen previous liberal governments suspend Habeas Corpus and install anti-constitutional ciminal laws with reverse onus before.
The current Liberal gun control laws are rife with at least 7 charter breeches of fundamental justice and due process and they propose a second wave which completly obliterates any property rights we were guaranteed through the Canadian Bill of Rights and section 26 of the Charter.
So their answer to investigate, arrest, charge, convict and incarcerate a group of possibly a couple hundered gang members in Totonto, is to remove the most fundamental charter legal right of all Canadian citizens ….to be presumed innocent until the state proves your guilt….to steal the property of innocent law abiding Canadians and by extention criminalize everyone who has lawful. peaceful possession of a sporting arm.
At the risk of being called a hysteric by supporters of the new Canadian oligarchic statism, this exact same series of events played out in every despotic regime of the last century. The Law abiding were scape goated for the acts of criminals as an excuse to extend the state’s authority PAST the limits of he constitutional rule of law. ( Recall Hitler burned the Reichstag and used it as an excuse to confiscate civilian firearms and unilaterally incarcerate state enemies) Statists ALWAYS feel that civil rights which protect the individual from the autocratic power of the state are “restrictive”. They constanly seek ways to weaken fundamental due process to deal with their ideological enemies or their embarrassments.
One has to realize that the anti-constitutionalist world view of these people ( statists) makes them unworthy of our trust to run a functional criminal justice system in a free civil society.
Objective observation bears out my hypothesis: we have seen 2 billion dollars misdirected to party friends and laws installed which denounce the charter rights of the law abiding and criminalize them arbitrarily in the last hysterical/statist response to crime…the effect of repressing the law abiding on crime was nebulous and of no effect….yet we see this statist policy dragged out again to further remove our legal rights as a response to the failure of the last loss of charter rights to statist autocracy.
What is proposed is akin to banning private ownership of cars because some criminals drive drunk and use them in drive bys and robberies. For further “public safety” everyone accused of any “Car crime” will be held incognito , without bail and must prove their innocence before being released.
Why does MSM always want to compare Toronto’s murder rates with those of Detroit, Los Angeles etc. Why not use Singapore? Mind you Singapore uses the death sentence for murderers and drug peddlers. What they have a much reduced drug problem and a much reduced murder rate, I wonder why?
Singapore is fundamentally “run” by the Chinese Triads or Tong syndicate…not the police….and like the golden era of Las Vagas when the NY mob was skimming nearly 100% of the business transactions in the town, the violent street crime rate is low because these gangster want to keep a low profile, and encourage people to live abd do business in their turf…they know when they have it good. The Mob did a better job of keeing outlaws from shooting up Vegas than the cops did….similarly the Triads in Hong Kong keep street crime low. Some punk gangs start robbing and shooting and getting people worked up about “crime” and they quietly “disappear”.
Maybe the Chinese Tong or NY mob can do a better job of policing street crime in TO than the impotent socialists on city council. I’m sure it would cost us a lot less in tax and civil liberty as the large crime syndicates are self supporting and less socially destructive. 😉
Highly emotional people make stupid decisions. After 9/11 we lost freedoms because we started hyper-ventilating at the sound of the word “terrorism”. We gave the message we were scared, so the government started their usual knee-jerk response by making it more difficult for commerce to get across the border, by ‘tightening up security’. Tying up traffic for hours looking for someone with a bomb. Who paid? The average traveller or trucker trying to move freely in the process of carrying out their responsibilities. Now, the average Canadian will probably end up having to lock up their kitchen knives because some people in Toronto are crying about the escalation in violence. Maybe if your kid goes out and gets crazy they’ll lock you up for being a negligent parent. The NDP, Tories and the Liberals can make big mistakes on this subject and the average Canadian will pay with lost freedoms. Paul Martin spent a billion dollars on gun control, because he thought that criminals in Canada would hand over their guns. That’s the foolish mentality that forms legislation in Ottawa. Do they really think criminals are that stupid or are they too lazy to do some honest evaluation of how we got here and fix it properly? There are extreme social issues that are being neglected within our cities. Young people are vulnerable to organized crime and need alternatives to help them choose healthy lifestyles. Yes, it takes longer, but it’s better than throwing knee-jerk legislation at the problem and totally missing the mark. There are non-profit volunteer organizations that are aware of the issues and can’t get the money needed to do anything about it, while Ottawa spends millions on gun control that does nothing but make it more difficult for hunters to enjoy their sport. Unfortunately, there isn’t one political party that really gets this issue right, because they don’t understand it. I doubt they talk to the front line people who work on our city streets with poor and disenfranchised citizens. Let me assure you, there is much anger and it doesn’t take long for the anger to turn to violence when addictions need to be satisfied. It is a stupid politician who suggests that we throw them all in prison for longer periods of time and our problems will go away. At the same time our judicial system doesn’t use existing laws effectively, so the mess has become systemic. I could go on and on… Suffice to say, this issue bears watching closely, because all of us can easily lose if it’s not handled well by our next government.
Suppose the Liberals are able to have more of those arrested for gun offences denied bail. That will just mean that in fact they will serve less time in jail if convicted since judges usually give two or three times credit for time served before trial off the sentence.
Thus if someone spent a year in jail before trial and received a four-year sentence, the person would be likely to be released almost immediately after conviction: two years’ credit for jail time, and parole after one-third of sentence served (the usual case) or one and one-third years, equals get out of prison.
Mark
Ottawa
I find this all very scary. You mean to tell me that the fact that the accused used an illegal weapon in the commission of a crime in NOT enough reason to show that he is a threat to society?
I’d say it is about time to make the judges responsible for the thugs they let out.
What the media should be reporting is the names of the judges who release violent re-offenders on bail.
These people are part and parcel of the problem.
Alex
MSM wants to fixate on guns so the discussion is not about “gang” violence and the “smuggling” of drugs and guns into Toronto and Montreal.
Rather than talking about “gun” crimes, we should be talking about “gangs” and “smuggling”. This little redirection by the MSM plays from the Lieberal playbook that guns are bad, and gunowners (or supporters of gunrights) are bad.
Discussions about “Gangs” or “Smuggling” would highlight the ineffective/corrupt operations of municipal-provincial-federal governments on this matter.
Create the peoblem then stomp on law abiding Canadians to ‘solve’ it. any laws passed by the liberals and their lapdog SCOC is ONLY to control the populace–has nothing to do with controlling crime. If it was, our crime would be decreasing. The criminals are doing the work for the Liberals, and just like with ‘terrorists’, give the government free reign to institute laws of citizen control. C68 and C36 have done NOTHING to control terrorists or criminals, but has done everything to control us.
Great question as to the number of candles lit for murder victims in TO–guess if you are not murdered with a gun you are of no use to the Liberals even in death?
“Reverse Onus”. Is that spelled with an O or an A?
As for those of you comparing guns to knives I remind you that you can’t kill an innocent bystander from across the street with a knife. I would rather have to deal with a criminal wielding a knife than a gun anytime.
But, having said that, any crime with a weapon that is committed with intent needs to be treated similarly.
WL Mackenzie Redux “The current Liberal gun control laws are rife with at least 7 charter breeches of fundamental justice and due process”
I would *love* if you could let me know what all those are. Seriously. I’ve asked a judge to clarify some issues with the Charter and I’d like to peruse this further. Thanks.
Bruce. “Highly emotional people make stupid decisions. After 9/11 we lost freedoms because we started hyper-ventilating at the sound of the word “terrorism”.
I totally agree. We live in a climate of perpetual fear today, thanks in no small part to the MSM. SARS, bird flu, terrorism, there are so many. If the truth were known this is being orchestrated to support a massive transfer of money, from “us” to “them”. And our politicians also take advantage of this to reduce our “freedoms” even more. Pathetic.
Life used to be good. I want the Canada I grew up in back.
In Calgary , ethnic fight last night.
they used a van to run over a crowd. one dead, four in serious or critical condition.Had to drive the wrong way down the street to get to them after a fight inside the club.
local media being very PC about naming the groups involved.
John, the Canada you used to know will never return.
Canada ceased to be a country back in 1973, after Henderson’s goal united our country, 1976 Montreal Olympics tore it apart. Montreal had scams/ripoffs/mafia in the open and we, Canada, just rolled over and slept.
So, we are in a ever increasing downward spiral, lead by the Liberal organizer, Jacques Corriveau, who by interesting “coincedence” is involved in the Adscam mess.
Until Quebec seperates, until the West seperates, Ontaril implodes from pride, until Atlantic Canada learns to work 365 days a year and not seasonal, we will never “return” to Canada.
You think Toronto has problems, we just had a lady killed by a van in Calgary, Samrat Ramnik Dhuna, 18 years old killing what looks like another East Indian Raminder Dhadda, 24 – this is our future, our future leaders, right?
http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2006/01/02/1375905-sun.html
This is a vision of Canada in 3-5 years with the retiring baby boomers – please mark your calendars:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/TimPriest51225.htm
The result of Political Correctness has ruined our country.
Rabbi Benjamin Blech:
“…political correctness is the new god to be worshipped, even at the cost of national suicide”
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Spielberg_Phone_Home.asp
Canada, as we know it, does not exist. Only in name, and who knows maybe down the road it will change back to the native version Kanata…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_name
Oh Canada, who will stand on guard for thee? We hope we will wake up, but there is a point of no return. Short of the grace of God, we cannot undo the damage. A country raped cannot return to its virginity – excuse the wording, I can’t think of another way to describe how the Liberal politicans have ruined us, and those who voted them in.
“God keep our land glorious and free.”
Wait…God? What God, who’s god. Is it a He or she? Is there one or many gods? Maybe no God?
“O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.”
Wait, “sons”? Not sisters? Who’s Son? God’s? Genetic Modified stem cells?
As you can see, we are on a slippery slope falling into the Pool of Despondency.
Do a Google of “pool of despondency pilgrim’s progress” #1 postition you’ll find an intersting post (4th down – tomax7) about Canadian bloggers.
Wrote that in October 2005 and still don’t see any improvement.
cheers
Tom
Oh, by the way, Happy New Year
🙂
*sigh*.
cheers
tom
“We have just got to have a ban on knives too.”
I realize that sarcasm was intended, but don’t even joke about it.
The whole law about knives and carrying of, is *even* *dumber* than the laws about guns (though not enforced most of the the time) AND by the by there have been serious noises in various jurisdictions about banning the sale of all knives with sharp points and longer than X” aimed at curtailing sales of evil carving knives and such.
“Experts” were even trotted out saying you didn;t need points for 99% of kitchen work (and the balance could be done with different techniques, anyway) and length …oh nevermind.
(nevermind that making a decent “weapon knife” is beyond trivial for anyone who cares to buy some scrap metal and a file)
Suffice to say that the nanny state really despises the idea that it’s inmates might have free will, judgement, rights inherent in themselves, responsibility, etc…
If you must bring out “bann knives too” make sure it’s seen as obviously dumb and that the gun laws are equally dumb, otherwise some fanatics somewhere are going to think it’s a good idea and start a little campaign on insinuation going that will .
Due process in the land of the human rights tribunals? Dream on…
How about a ban on Liberals, that should solve most problems. Jake
Ban guns, ban knives, ban pool cues too. And while you are at it how about cricket bats? I saw the damage one angry player did to a poor hapless ref in Winnerpeg one summer. Banning the tools of crime is at best a idealistic if not simplistic idea of a solution that doesn’t have a snowballs chance in hell of actually doing any good.
My $0.02 worth. While everybody is on a rant I’d like to throw this into the mix. There is going to be another vigil for the young woman gunned down Boxing day in Toronto. What I’d like to know is why there isn’t a vigil or for that reason more articles about Brenda Moreside, she was the woman that was murdered because the RCMP didn’t respond to a 911 call on the night she was killed. This is the same number that the present PM advocates that we should all depend on in times of trouble. This was the same number that cost the life of another young woman, this time a police constable in Quebec. Why is it that the people we’ve been paying inflated salaries to are unable to comprehend that the system they are trying to defend is NOT WORKING. It is time that we returned to those thrilling days of yesteryear and started throwing all these bastards in prison, hardlabour, bread and water, no rights! Anybody that has a proven record, violent offenders and white collar criminals alike. Forget the comfy fur and the feel good ‘Just Society’ I’m sick and tired of watching this country go down the drain over a failed experiment in social engineering!!!
Ask Martin when he will “libel chill” this blogger: shut this blogger off, mute Leo, silence Leo? ??????
Interesting campaign tactic by the Prime Minister, “Vote for me, I haven’t been interrogated yet.” – Leo
http://www.primetimecrime.com
All of my left wing friends bemoan the lax enforcement of gun laws, the lack of truth in sentencing, and the release of pedophiles and rapists into the communities onto the streets their children stroll. You are hypocrits I whisper in their ears. I hold you personally responsible for the release of these lunatics onto mainstreet.
My now statndard reproach to these whiners is: “You are responsible for these travesties. You elected the whimpering apologetic milk sop lefties who coddle and release these criminals despite knowing full well they will almost certainly rape again.
As for our Liberal friends the following excerpt from the Minister of Justice sets out Liberal-think regarding crime and (god forbid [if there were a god]) PUNISHMENT!
Liberal Justice Minister explianing to less enlightened Canadians why Criminals should be loved and rehabilitated; not punished. WAKE UP Canadians this is a politicalo problem not a legal problem. Parliament makes the law. The problem with the Candian Criminal justice system, sentencing and parole is POLITICAL Liberal and NDP to be more specific.
If you want tougher enforcement sentencing and punishment DON”T ELECT THE LIBERALS OR NDP. It is that simple…it’s your own damned fault.
Here is typical Liberal propaganda on their horrible record in justice. This is their faint hearted defence. The ‘we know better than you the great unbwashed’ defence by the Liberral Minister of Justice.
“Much of the criticism which is directed at Canadian sentencing practices focuses exclusively on the nature of the offence and omits to consider how the courts weigh the aggravating and mitigating factors relevant to the offender, and the circumstances surrounding the offence, in crafting an appropriate sentence.
Parliament (Liberal controlled Parliament) has placed a major emphasis on a �least restrictive measures� approach, and has provided a direction to use incarceration only where community sentencing alternatives are not considered feasible. This is consistent with Parliament�s concern to address the overuse of incarceration as a means of addressing crime in Canada and to provide for restorative goals and processes in sentencing.
Bottom line…oxymorons like “life imprisonment with no parole for 15 years.”
This condescending approach is to convince you, the left wing voter, that the bad guy was harshly dealt with. You know what is really surprising?? It appears to work!
Perhaps the Liberals know more about the average reading comprehension of Liberal voters than do I.
I can honestly say that never, ever, have I cast a ballot for any candidate or party that would pass a law sentencing a violent rapist to life but assuring his release in less than 15 years.
The streets would be safer for all of us if my muddle headed Liberal voting friends could make the same claim.
Ouch! It’d surely hurt to have one’s onus reversed.
Seriously, the concept of “reverse onus”, as suggested by Paulie M., won’t do jack crap to put a dent in the exploding, daily handgun-related violence.
Since handguns have been banned for generations already, the only way to reduce this kind of violence is to throw the perps in the slammer for a long, long time. Period. No more of the simplistic, naive nonsense from the left about “exclusion from society” being the cause, etc. It’s the solution, actually. Do the only thing that’s tried and true. The leftist methods have been proven not only ineffective, but have also probably been one of the causes of the problem. The perps fear no consequences. Therefore they kill, kill, kill.
Enough!
You see, the MSM gets much more worked up when an innocent pretty white girl gets murdered than if a black girl or a white guy gets murdered. Yes it is hypocracy but those are the facts of life. Now if we could get the MSM to say “Jamacian Immigrant Gangs” instead of “youth gangs” we as a society would reach our first step in the 12 step program of bringing liberal Toronto back to reality.
As for punishment? Public Hangings. Bring back the noose. Yes, it might not scare crooks straight but for the public it would bring closure for gruesome crimes. Non of this secretive execution stuff that the Americans do. No, make it public and transparent.
In la-la Liberal Land, it’s all about perception. The Gun Registry placated Torontonians and the MSM for 10 years.
The handgun ban sounds equally beneficial to the TO/ MSM crowd, as did bill C-68.
The gun registry provides desperately needed jobs in New Brunswick, the GST does the same for PEI. Poor people can be bought cheaply.A Knife and Pointy Stick Registry could potentially employ thousands of Canadians!
If someday they include slingshots and hurtful words in another round of crime prevention legislation, why, we can ALL be comfortable government employees! Result: Socialist Paradise!!
I may move to a F***ing cave!
Reverse Onus. I really don’t see the need for RO bail justification. All we need is a few precedents – which translates into a few judges who actually have the balls to deny bail to anyone who uses a gun in the commision of an offense. To me, the concept that someone should remain in jail after shooting someone or something is a no-brainer. Then again, I’m not a Liberal….
Oh, and name the judges that let the criminals out. (a comment in the Toronto Sun indicates that they are considering this) Actually, it would be nice to post a quarterly summary of how each judge acts. Kind of like hockey stats.
Herald has some Sikh names.
Pravda (CBC) is mum on the murder by van last night in Calgary.
CANADA is the only industrialized country in the world where the rural crime rate is higher than the urban crime rate.
the crime stats leaders. NWT, Nunavit, Yukon , Sask. — the most rural areas of the whole mess..
FREE ALBERTA
Just saw Stephen Harper on Global, expressing a clear, concise message on violent crime. Meanwhile, Martin is standing at the edge of his bus,stuttering and uttering on ‘reverse onus’as the solution innocent people dying on the streets.
I hesitate to think how stupid he takes us to be. Suddenly the Charter has no effect? Suddenly the notwithstanding clause has lost it’s sacredness? The man is a puff headed buffoon, flailing from lack of a centre of substance.
Sweet victory: to see the man for whom the Prime Ministership was an o’er weening ambition, become Canada’s arguably worst example – Chretien and Trudeau ‘notwithstanding’.
it does not matter if you name all the judges as they are all appointed anyway they work for who appointed them and they know whats best for the people !!!!
I would like to see reverse onus as applied to the Lieberals.They should have to prove that they belong in power! I would think that a certain wooden boys nose would not stretch as far as would some Libs in trying to justify their reign of terror…..
Reverse onus?
Now that’s fascinating.
There’s a bit of that here in the UK with their daffy TV licence requirement. If you choose not to own a TV, you don’t need a licence (obviously).
But you’ll spend the rest of your life constantly having to PROVE to some licensing inspector that you do not have a TV in your home…
Today I read a newspaper article about the shooting death of that girl in Toronto. The “Colored” community is wondering if the girl was black would there still be such a fuss made?
If the black person was a piller of the school like she was the answer is yes……….If he or she was a member of a gang probably not.Why does the race card always come into play? I think the colored community is ashamed of some of their friends.It was black or colored kids who did the shooting and at least one person wounded was colored. The colored people are harder on each other than the whites could ever be to them.You want to make a race issue out of it go ahead but you’re wrong in doing so. If my memory serves me well one of the wounded was east Asian. I think it’s a cop out to make this a race issue.The colored community should be ashamed of themselves.All you are doing is giving a bunch of punks amunition. It’s not as simple as black and white.