Like this election wasn’t weird enough, now the Pope weighs in.
I’ll tell you though, I’d hate to see the Pope’s poll numbers after Trump finishes with him. I believe he’ll be buried before the next election.
Like this election wasn’t weird enough, now the Pope weighs in.
I’ll tell you though, I’d hate to see the Pope’s poll numbers after Trump finishes with him. I believe he’ll be buried before the next election.
I see that folks are arguing over religion… Never one to take sound advice, I think I’ll join the discussion…
FWIW, I have a so-so Ph.D. Religion from a flaky little church. Also I’m married to a Catholic and my Dad was one. Mom was born Church of England, but I was raised in a mix of Southern Baptist, Methodist, and Episcopalian (there not being a Church Of England in California, and the Episcopalians not making it to my town until I was about 12…) I’ve had a ‘rich’ exposure to various churches and religions. Even attended a Buddhist temple for a while, and a Mormon church from time to time.
As to “Who Decides” and especially who decides if I am a Christian, well, that depends on your particular church. Often “Who Decides” things is encoded in the name of the church. An episcopal is a bishop. Episcopalians had a ‘tiff’ and decided that each Bishop could make up their own rules and split off. A presbyter is an elder or “priest”. The Presbyterians decided that it only took a priest or elder to decide things. On it goes, down to Evangelicals, where the doctrine is just that if you are filled with the holy spirit, you are as good as anyone else to decide how to go about teaching the gospel and creating new Christians.
Of course, the First Bishops wanted power to rest with them, so we have the “Only I Can Decide” set. The most common in the west is the ROMAN Catholic Church, where they claim sole authority via the apostle Peter. This rubbed the Eastern Orthodox Church the wrong way, as they had their own apostle and bishop, so they have their own Pope now too. (The two Popes have been trying to work things out lately for a joining, sort of…) There’s also the Eastern Catholics who’ve decided to throw in with the Roman ones, and the Oriental Orthodox Churches (where the Coptics, Ethiopian, and a few others have joined together.) This adds in their founding apostles and their Popes too. (Yes, the Coptic Church has a Pope..)
In the beginning, that collection of churches with Popes had their own apostles and their own founding bishops and most of them don’t take kindly to the Roman folks saying they are the only one true Christian Church.
Which brings up the issue of Apostolic churches. Any church with Apostolic in their name is claiming they follow the teachings of a particular apostle, but not necessarily giving Peter the last word… There is even a church in India of very great age claiming that Timothy showed up and founded them. ( I don’t know if they have a Pope too…)
I’m going to skip over a whole bunch of others, like Methodists (who have a method) and Lutherans (who go the “solo scriptura” method after Luther) and Baptists (who think you need a whole body dunk, not just a sprinkle) where the name indicates some fine point of their particular world view…
The point?
Each of them is perfectly capable of recognizing someone as a Christian and each has their own “rules” for the process.
At the far end of things, the Evangelical movement even is happy to just hand you a Bible and if you “find Christ” all on your own (“you” get to be the decider!) then you are a Christian (dunk or no dunk, sprinkle or no sprinkle). Anyone who evangelizes is a decider…
As there was at least one year of about 400 years duration fought over this kind of stuff, y’all will not be resolving it here.
So I’d like to suggest that folks just accept each other and accept at face value when someone claims they are a Christian. Dunked, sprinkled, or self appointed.
As a sidebar on El Pape: Note that his is a Jesuit. They have been described as “God’s Marines”. Don’t expect him to be restrained, or meek, in his advocacy. Don’t expect him to not have an opinion on things, and make it known. I’m OK with that. But also don’t forget that there are other Popes in the world, too, and other apostolic paths and churches. And The Book has a power of it’s own…
Just sit back and enjoy the Pope & Donald show 😉
Sidebar on Biblical Accuracy:
There was a fuss made up above about text warping over time and translation. FWIW, I’ve read chunks of the Vulgate Bible in the original Latin, and I’ve used a simultaneous translation of the Greek Septuagint. I’ve read various translators notes in various bibles. I’ve picked up a Jehovah’s Witness copy when I visited them a few times. I’ve got a large collection of Bibles and parallel Bibles. My conclusion?
After WAAAAY too many days of my life spent on this, I’ve found that the professional translators did a Damn Fine Job of it. Yes, there are differences between the Latin, Greek, and English. But (especially if you avoid the ‘free translation’ new age Bibles and stick with the NIV, NASB, American Standard, NR Standard, or even the King James) the variations are nearly nil from the original texts and have nothing of significance different.
The major differences are limitations of any given language. For example, Greek has the “dual” number. It might say “John and Mary where …” “They (dual) went…” and English just doesn’t have a dual. So you could say “John and Mary” again in place of the Dual-They, or you could just say “They” and most English speakers will get it. The other big difference is that the tetragrammaton (name of God in Hebew as 4 letters) may be written God or The Lord or GOD so as to avoid “speaking the name of God” (forbidden in most Jewish traditions and some Christian ones) or as the Jehovah’s Witnessed do, put Jehovah there (and say “heck, I’m going to use the proper name of God.) It was written in the old Hebrew texts, even if the Priest didn’t say it out loud, so why not…
The only other difference of any importance I’ve found is in the Peshitta Text
http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/index.php
It is from an old Aramaic Bible and may have a few words more right than the later Latin got it. In particular, the line about a camel fitting through the eye of a needle. Turns out that in old Aramaic, the difference between “camel” and “rope” is a single tiny dot. Their copy says ~”…than to put a rope through the eye of a needle”. IMHO, they have it ‘more right’. Yet no ‘sense’ is lost in that mis-translation to ‘camel’. Neither one fits through the eye of a needle well.
So please take comfort in knowing that pretty much all but the “modern free translation” Bibles are pretty much word for word exact copies with original texts from about 300 A.D. as the source for the translations. (Vulgate was originally about 600 A.D. but earlier copies have been found, Masoritic and Septuagint also about then with Septuagint being very early).
Now what “spin” various preachers and priests put on it in their sermons, that’s entirely up for grabs… And yes, I’m leaned toward the “only the scripture” side, since I can read and think for myself…
“As there was at least one year of about 400 years”
Make that “at least one WAR of at about 400 years”…
and “note that HE is a Jesuit”… (Maybe I need to remember to proof it first…)
Alright … now that Pope Lenin has waded into America’s presidential election … how does he rate Hitlery Clinton’s Christianity ? Is gonna give her good God points for ignoring hundreds of security requests in Benghazi ? And lying about the massacre to defect criticism. I imagine her defense of the abortion factory otherwise known as Planned Parenthood … makes Jesus smile ? How about her collection of untold $riches$ by selling taxpayer favors to greedy corporations (including corporate colleges) ? Of course the $$$Vatican$$$ approves of that. Are all the vicious personal attacks on her “husbands” sexual conquests (otherwise defined as RAPE by NOW) are justified in the name of this False-Pope’s god.
This Pope is a False-prophet and pied-piper of socialist vermin.
Seems like a spreading Catholicism stand to me. A wall would stop mostly Catholic Mexicans from entering the US.
His green thing was all money I think. “Carbon credits? People giving their worldly goods to pay for their sins? They’re just indulgences! That’s our scam! We gotta get in on this.”
All CATHOLIC Christians are born again with baptism…it’s biblical. John 3:3 continues,”Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.
And Gellen, I assume you are using a passive aggressive tactic with your don’t add anything to His words meme. Does that mean you attend “services” on Saturday and work on Sunday? There is a whole bunch of Seventh Day Adventists out there too.
Finally RU, you gotta update your hate; sexual abuse is a greater threat amongst your tract! Ask Charles Lwanga.
Pope’s come and go, but the Church lasts. Padre Pio pray for us.
Jesus Christ said, ye that are without sin, let him cast the first stone..
In this wicked world it would take hell of a long time to find a good man with a Rock…
I can assure you all….no matter what form of Christianity you believe or follow .we are all equal pains in the ass in the eyes of the lord.
As a Lutheran I follow the bible I beleive the entire (NIV) to be the inspired word of God perfect in every way.
Funny thing is if we actually humbled ourselves enough to try to live the way the bible teaches even if we put just a bit of effort into being Christ like the world would be a better place but the bible being perfect has predicted and told us about our natural sinful behaviour to rebel against God and so the world will continue into decay moral bankruptcy Ect until he returns.
E.M. Smith very well stated. I don’t follow an apostle, I follow the bible,Jesus and its teachings. Luther did such a good job asking questions of the Catholic Church (power hungry and corrupt from the beginning) that the Catholic Church put a bounty on his head after he posted the 95 questions on the Catholic Church door.
Anyone who thinks that doing good will grant you salvation is totally lost in my opinion . You cannot buy your way into heaven , paying indulgences does not wipe away your sinful nature.
Jesus death and resurrection on the cross has done that freely for us he was and is the sacrificial lamb he takes all of our sins and wipes them away . Repentance is huge . Paul told the Romans after he explained to them you are free from sin through Christ they asked him “now that we have this salvation ,shall we go on sinning?” Paul’s response “BY NO MEANS!”.
Just because you have salvation does not mean you can ignore scripture or not go to church or carry on your selfish decadent ways it just means that your sins are forgiven and you are free from the bondage that once held us captive to sin. Repentance , is huge trying to turn from your sin hating your sin trying to live and walk with Christ in your life your heart trusting the Holy Spirit these things are all good and SHOULD be followed but we are all weak pathetic selfish arrogant sinful people were it not for Christ we would have no way out.
The apostles were great they did much good in the name of the lord. But even they abandoned Christ , Peter betrayed Christ , he denied him to save his own skin. Judas betrayed Jesus only to come to realize he was the Christ …what did he do ? Hung himself from his own guilt and condemned himself to hell . No one stood to ask for Jesus to be released no one so they let a convicted murderer go instead of a sinless innocent man Jesus . Pontious knew it he had nothing on Jesus and admitted it .
Anyway there are definitely false fake churches out there that beleive in works like Joel osteen , and the televangelists , and the healing churches where the pastor cures cancer in the crowds of people …or the churches that claim if you want a Ferrari pray for a Ferrari because you are a Ferrari and therefore you with the right positive thinking will receive a Ferrari …..and the cleflow dollas claiming they need a 60million dollar g-6 Learjet to “spread the gospel” lol …..these people will face judgement .
The road to hell is wide and well travelled and paved with good intentions, the road to heaven is narrow and only a few will find it.
“Christians are born again with baptism”
That an abbreviation that might confuse some people. It’s like saying someone is qualified because he has a certificate on the wall. Baptism is the sign of salvation through faith in Christ’s atonement for our sins. Just like there are counterfeit certificates out there, there are lots of bogus baptisms.
This is too damn funny. Here are some of my thoughts.
Christians fighting among themselves over who is the real Christian. I thought this kind of intolerance towards other’s beliefs was reserved to belittle non-Christians. And why is following the teachings of Jesus Christ sooooo confusing for sooooo many that there are countless different groups saying their way is the only way? I was raised RC, including their school system, so imagine my surprise to read here today that we were never really Christians. I know we were taught the RC church was the only hope of making heaven. Sorry to have to tell you run-of-the-mill Christians this.
Then we have Trump in a position trying to convince everyone he is a devout Christian to get the small-minded bigoted evangelical vote. If he rejected bigoted evangelicals with the same fervor as the bigoted PC crowd, I would have even more respect for him.
Funny how NO ONE EVER becomes Christian without being indoctrinated and trained by a human being first. Funny how a bunch a ME sand people deserved the word of god but Jesus didn’t think his Chinese (etc, etc, etc, etc, etc) children needed saving from their sins. Funny how the countless millions of humans who lived and suffered a brutal existence before Jesus’s birth weren’t worth saving either. I can give you hundreds more “funny hows” but space is limited.
BTW, as many are pondering, just how many muslim refugees has the Vatican housed behind their walls? Someone explain to these popes that the “Kingdom” of God does not refer to living behind a walled fortress with an army to protect your obscene riches.
One more thing. I think it is hyper-hypocrisy to ridicule MMGW as bullshit then refuse to take the same level of healthy skepticism and disbelief with the bullshit claims of the other major religions. It is astounding what people are willing to convince themselves of so that they can pretend death isn’t real. To that end, the great news is, all I have to do is accept Jesus back into my life and confess my sins on my deathbed and I’m golden.
See you guys in heaven!
Christians fighting over their Doctrines, Bible, Savior.. etc.. etc..
Anyone else wonder why the Islamsicks and their Sharia Law are taking over the freaking world ??
“Christians fighting over their Doctrines, Bible, Savior.. etc.. etc..”
Despite the many obtuse comments here, almost all the sparring Christians are doing with each other is entirely verbal.
The only place right now where anybody is actually fighting to the death over doctrinal issues is the Muslim world.
The Pope has a simple solution if he doesn’t want to be attacked. Stay out of politics and non-Catholic religion. For someone who is considered by some to be the Anti-Christ, to attack the faith of a Protestant is an absolutely stupid move. He must enjoy creating shitstorms.
More evidence Trump is unstoppable.
Even the Pope campaigns on his behalf.
Get used to President Trump.
You should read CS Lewis “The Great Divorce. You might discover just HOW and WHY you won’t be chatting with me in heaven … because YOU have already determined YOURSELF to be God. You won’t even recognize heaven … only yourself.
E.M. Smith – thanks, most enlightening.
I’m a relatively recent convert. I found I didn’t have enough faith in random chance for the two big miracles that caused us: the Big Bang, and the rules change less than a microsecond after the Big Bang that prevented it from undoing itself. That a near stone aged tribe got the order of creation right (shortened to a week, to put it to a scale they could understand) tells me that they definitely had some help. Other, lesser miracles (like life beginning) just supported what I was coming to believe.
I’m an atypical believer (I know, we all are, but hear me out). I know it has been discussed elsewhere ad nauseum, but I’d like to ask the question yet again of why Christ spoke in parables? The Bible is largely couched the same way. There is some we know, but some we aren’t meant to know yet. The Bible is the definitive guide to the history of the Israelites. It also contains a lot of items that they couldn’t understand, but tried to describe anyway. The rules that were taught to them have made our modern society possible, and if we continue to follow them then we will ultimately spread to the stars and not die when the earth does (consumed by our sun as it ages and expands).
Some count generations in the Bible and determine that the world must be 10,000 years old and hold fast to that. The God gave us physical laws, layers of rock, and radioactivity to act as a clock to show us that the Earth is over 4 billion years old. There are emanations we’re collecting and empirically derived properties that we can use for calculations to tell us that our sun is at least a second generation star, and that the heavier elements that are needed to make our brains work were the results of long ago supernovae.
If the universe is 10,000 years old then God made it to look like it is far, far older than it really is. The guidance provided by the Old Testament is suitable to pre-schoolers. “Do this or you’ll get a smack.” Christ introduced us to a higher level or different type of thought (that meshed nicely with Greek thinkers) and was geared for a slightly more developed group – we were now in Primary school. Some reasons were given, but it’s still mostly “do this because I say so”. The blueprints provided have lead to societies that are far wealthier (in terms of food, freedom, personal time, personal choices, etc) than any that have come before. When the rules are turned from or co-opted, the societies fail.
Those who work for a better future within Christianity make the world better for their future generations. What else would one expect of a movement founded by a woodworker (as his father was) whose work had to please others or he would get no further work. Those who work within the most visible framework of Islam take from others for their own enrichment. It is what one would expect from a movement founded by a bandit turned general; one who used lies, deceit, and ignored cultural norms (ie no attacks during Ramadan) when it aided him personally.
Sorry, I’ve wandered a bit, but there’s a lot of food for thought in the above posts. By all means we can argue about the minutiae, but I hope we can agree that what we (discussing and diving into the weeds) have in common is far more important than the differences between us.
Stradivarious – I have to disagree with you on this one. The root “petr” is commonly used in geology to mean “rock”, not stone. A stone is an individual portion of rock, usually worn down to smoothness by weathering.
pe•trol•o•gy (pə-trŏlˈə-jē)► n. The branch of geology that deals with the origin, composition, structure, and alteration of rocks.
pe•trog•ra•phy (pə-trŏgˈrə-fē)►
n. The description and classification of rocks.
Petros/petra can mean both rock and stone. For the purposes of Biblical interpretation, the difference is moot since the original text was in Koine Greek.
C_miner
Congrats onrecieving the holy spirt and your salvation through christ. God bless you.
The time and age of the planet is not that hard if you beleive in absolute truth. god created it all as you stated he made rocks that are deemed billions of years old but the it all may actually be 10,000 years old. Think if god can create you, me and the universe he can create age when he made adam and eve he made them with age they were never babies being breast fed they had age i would assume early 20’s late teens perhaps. Not sure. these things dont matter to me.
What matters to all of this is if jesus died went to hell crushed death and rose again 3 days later because with out that nothing else matters at all. Nothing.
Well! That was certainly depressing! The only ones who didn’t appear to be total idiots, were Anselm and Osumashi – (and I include Trump and Francis) but then, I’m probably biased!
Some count generations in the Bible and determine that the world must be 10,000 years old and hold fast to that.
The first verse of Genesis says Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth.
No time elapsed given between Genesis 1 and 2.
Gen 1:2 and the earth became waste (tohu va bohu), and void; …
Translated ‘became’ in many, many other places; Gen_2:7; Gen_4:3; Gen_9:15; Gen_19:26. Exo_32:1. Deu_27:9. 2Sa_7:24, &c. Also rendered came to pass Gen_4:14; Gen_22:1; Gen_23:1; Gen_27:1. Jos_4:1; Jos_5:1. 1Ki_13:32. Isa_14:24
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (tohu), he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Says He created the earth not empty (tohu), it became that way.
Petros/petra can mean both rock and stone.
Incorrect. In any event, Christ used ‘petra’, which is feminine, and couldn’t refer to Peter. It referred to Peter’s confession.
No, I don’t worship on Saturdays. Sorry. And the Seventh Day Adventists could possibly be right.
Don’t try to put me in a box.
I have been a follower of Christ since childhood when I accepted him as Lord and Saviour, and have studied the Bible since my early teens. I have led Sunday School classes, sung in choirs and led an adult Bible Study.
You go your way and I’ll go mine and I’ll be in Heaven before you. At age 87, I’m waiting for the call to come soon, but you’ll be joining the throng much later….that is
unless the Lord comes first.
“In any event, Christ used ‘petra’, which is feminine, and couldn’t refer to Peter.”
Wrong. This is Matthew’s account, written in Koine Greek. The Petros/petra line in Matthew 16:18 is a clever play on words, essentially an elegant pun that any Greek speaker would have easily understood.
And to go back to my original point: it doesn’t much matter whether petros/petra means rock or stone or both in English; the account wasn’t written in English.
“THOU ART PETER” (Kephas [Aramaic] – stone)
(Matt. 16:18).
https://www.levendwater.org/companion/append147.html
https://www.levendwater.org/companion/append94.html
The writers were Hebrews; and thus, while the language is Greek, the thoughts and idioms are Hebrew. These idioms or Hebraisms are generally pointed out in the notes of The Companion Bible. If the Greek of the N.T. be regarded as an inspired translation from Hebrew or Aramaic originals, most of the various readings would be accounted for and understood.
Unfortunately for you, kepha can mean both rock and stone.
Strike Three! You’re out!
From Devin Rose (former protester), “across all ancient Churches are the universal beliefs in Apostolic Succession, veneration of Mary and the saints, seven sacraments, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and many other doctrines that Protestants think Catholics “invented” in the Middle Ages. Not at all, as the Coptic Church broke in schism in the 400s, and yet also believes all these things.
Bit by bit, I began to doubt that the Protestant pastors I listened to were teaching me the full truth without error. This began my road to rejecting sola Scriptura–the Bible alone–and embracing the Catholic Faith.” It’s not too late Gellen to make the trip home before you land in extended protest.
And this answer from a Protestant caller about the meaning of Simon’s name change by Aramaic speaking Jesus is succinct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8FCcSipkew
“The Church Fathers, those Christians closest to the apostles in time, culture, and theological background, clearly understood that Jesus promised to build the Church on Peter; including Tatian the Syrian, Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian of Carthage, Firmilian, Ephraim the Syrian, Optatus, Ambrose of Milan, Damasus I, Leo I, Jerome, Augustine, and Sechnall of Ireland.”
Cardinal Robert Sarah pray for unity.
I guess nothing like calling God a liar…
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.