At a certain generally conservative paper:
National Post View: Are the Tories sound managers? Not of the Navy
The [sic] HMCS Athabaskan near Sydney, Nova Scotia. Canada’s last destroyer is temporarily sidelined after a series of engine problems and other technical issues on the 43-year-old vessel caused senior navy leaders to worry the ship might not be able to continue operating.
…
This article gets no argument from me. Fact is, the Tories have been no better at keeping the navy afloat than any of the previous regimes. And all of this was known long in advance. After 40 years, a ship is pretty much clapped-out. That up until last year we were still keeping relics from the 1960s in service was simply beyond belief.
THIS is where money for the boondoggle called income splitting was taken.
The procurement process could probably use a thorough disemboweling.
Its not like Minister Mackay didn’t have enough time on the job to cut through the interminable red tape…
Peter Mackay – Minister of National Defence
August 14, 2007 – July 15, 2013
I hear Peter MacKay is spending some more time with family these days.
Well I hesitated to do it, but somebody has to say it:
German Coast guard trainee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR0lWICH3rY
“Vat are you sinking about?”
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group ‘True North’
Well, when you’re in politics you got to make some pretty tough choices about what kind of “investment” is going to bring you the most political capital. And I’m just guessing that the average Canadian is happier with a big useless bureaucracy that hands out cheques just before elections than he/she is with a decently equipped army, navy, and air force.
They could shrink the bureaucracy, cut the CBC for a billion a year, still hand out cheques and there’s your NAVY.
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group ‘True North’
“Well, when you’re in politics you got to make some pretty tough choices about what kind of “investment” is going to bring you the most political capital. And I’m just guessing that the average Canadian is happier with a big useless bureaucracy that hands out cheques just before elections than he/she is with a decently equipped army, navy, and air force.”
Nope. You are right. We now have the result of the baby-boomers kids. And the “investment” spent on those cheques is piddling, when you consider they ain’t going to spend anything unless their nest is feathered. Our politicians aren’t here for us. Although it could be worse. AB could have elected a kleptocrat. Oh wait.
I’m not a huge fan of the Harper govt, but this is one area I won’t fault them. It isn’t about money, it’s about the time required to go through the procurement process. Any interference in it and they’ll be accused of doing it for nefarious reasons of some sort or another. Once you get through the bureaucratic red tape of procurement for several years, you then have the bidding process which also takes at least a year. Then to actually build them takes several years more. The whole process is a massive undertaking and no one has the political balls to actually stand up and ram through the process – and if someone did do that then we conservatives would blame them for all the mistakes that came out of ramming it through. Catch-22.
The Lefties will blame them for everything regardless of whether it’s good or not, but conservatives can sometimes be equally vicious to our own.
Well said. One quibble, the CPC aren’t Tories.
Tories is a term that the Leftists or lazy people in the MSM use to tie all nominally conservative governments together so that past policies and baggage, particularly of the now defunct PCs, can be laid at the feet of the CPC, which is a different party and not merely a continuation of the PCs.
When Wild Rose becomes the government of Alberta, you will see the MSM referring to them as Tories too, regardless of having called the Alberta PCs Tories in past elections where they were running against Wild Rose and regardless of referring to the federal PCs(when they still existed) as the Tories when they were running against the new CPC.
Don’t let the Left shape the battle ground by defining the terms used in the debate.
That is how they win.
Disappointing? Yes. But…
In 2008 the crash happened, and that changed a lot of things. In retrospect, perhaps it would have been prudent to spend on the military instead of other stuff.
The real problem is our procurement system, it is, and has been for decades, a failure. Partly because of military leadership that has it in its collective mindset that Canada somehow requires specially built equipment. And partly because it’s considered a sin to spend money on equipment that doesn’t have economic benefits for Canada.
We bought the 5 C-17 Globemasters off the shelf, as well as the new fleet of C-130s, and they work just fine…forget that all of it landed here in comparatively little time. Basically the same story for the new Chinook choppers. And through all of it, the usual suspects screamed bloody murder because all the standard hoops to jump through to get anything done had been pretty circumvented.
Why did we need specially built Sikorsky choppers? The ones used by the US everywhere on the entire bloody planet, and in every conceivable environment and/or conflagration weren’t good enough??? The Swedes built totally kick ass subs that give the US Navy fits because they’re undetectable! But they’re not good enough for Canada?
Getting a GD military procurement handled in this country is pretty much like getting a damned pipeline built! Everybody and his freakin’ dog automatically lines up to fight them every step of the way, turning the whole process into one big cluster unowhat! When did a fighter jet ever in our history have to have its costs calculated up front for its entire lifespan? And who on God’s earth can even attempt to accurately do that anyway??? NOBODY!!! Who the hell knows what the next 40 years holds in store!!! NOBODY!!!
All of this crap is literally built into the culture of this country, and I seriously doubt Christ Himself could figure out a way through or around it.
IMHO and FWIW.
“All of this crap is literally built into the culture of this country, and I seriously doubt Christ Himself could figure out a way through or around it.”
Well said,Al.
And, in every military procurement,the Quebec Biggies like Bombardier and Power Corp. are front and center demanding maintenance or building contracts go their way.
Harper promised a lot of Navy shipbuilding, but I suppose the reality of the accounts caught up to the fantasy.
For a conservative paper the NP seems to have a preponderance of lefty commenters.
I’m thinking a U-Boot attack would speed up the procurement process considerably…
WWII German U-Boat found in Churchill River in Labrador Canada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB1kyTVdxu4
Tipperary Song (Das Boot)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pddW-HeHAwo
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group ‘True North’
Axis U-boats operated in Canadian and Newfoundland waters throughout the war, sinking many naval and merchant vessels. Two significant attacks took place in 1942 when German U-boats attacked four allied ore carriers at Bell Island, Newfoundland. The carriers SS Saganaga and SS Lord Strathcona were sunk by U-513 on 5 September 1942, while SS Rosecastle and P.L.M 27 were sunk by U-518 on 2 November with the loss of 69 lives. When the submarine fired a torpedo at the loading pier, Bell Island became the only location in North America to be subject to direct attack by German forces in the Second World War. U-boats were also found in the St. Lawrence River; during the night of 14 October 1942, the Newfoundland Railway ferry, SS Caribou was torpedoed by German U-boat U-69 and sunk in the Cabot Strait with the loss of 137 lives. Both sides fought to outsmart each other and decide the fate of the merchant vessels in the Atlantic Ocean. Several U-boat wrecks have been found in Canadian waters, a few as far in as the Labrador River.
Axis U-boats operated in Canadian and Newfoundland waters throughout the war, sinking many naval and merchant vessels. Two significant attacks took place in 1942 when German U-boats attacked four allied ore carriers at Bell Island, Newfoundland. The carriers SS Saganaga and SS Lord Strathcona were sunk by U-513 on 5 September 1942, while SS Rosecastle and P.L.M 27 were sunk by U-518 on 2 November with the loss of 69 lives. When the submarine fired a torpedo at the loading pier, Bell Island became the only location in North America to be subject to direct attack by German forces in the Second World War. U-boats were also found in the St. Lawrence River; during the night of 14 October 1942, the Newfoundland Railway ferry, SS Caribou was torpedoed by German U-boat U-69 and sunk in the Cabot Strait with the loss of 137 lives. Both sides fought to outsmart each other and decide the fate of the merchant vessels in the Atlantic Ocean. Several U-boat wrecks have been found in Canadian waters, a few as far in as the Labrador River.
A link to the very good book about the original Athabascan . . .
http://www.capricornbooks.ca/?page=shop/flypage&wt=1.00&product_id=40909&CLSN_678=1333408424678253b1e67f055f84d813
I don’t usually watch any TV news, but have caught a couple of Global supper newscasts of late, it is pretty much a conservative hate fest…I’m struggling to understand the change, but with two boys playing soccer and doing the summer skill camps the $900 or so cheque we just got is a treat. All the hate focused on a pretty cool program which is really a stimulus, from the same media who lambasted us for not spending into deficit enough…almost like they are trying to force a change in government.
Agreed, Al. And let’s not forget that we bought Leopard IIs of the shelf when we suddenly needed heavy tanks in Afghanistan immediately. I agree with you about this nonsense of needing unique Canadian equipment. Not only does it stretch out the procurement period but it increases greatly the cost. The shambles over the “helicopter engine operating time without oil” is truly a wonder to behold.
NDHQ needs to be burned to the ground. How many paper shufflers does the damn military need?
Anyone remember that the usual suspects demanded that DND get a bid for the A-400M from Airbus?
These are just starting to be delivered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A400M_Atlas
Meaning Canada would still be flying 50 year old C-130s right now, and likely well into the future for all the usual reasons. And the C-17 would have been relegated to pipe-dream status while we plugged along with Budget Rent-an-Antonov, showing up to the crisis du jour weeks late and pretty much after everyone else had gone back home.
…as opposed to our C-17s showing up, loaded to the nuts with emergency supplies, in a place like Haiti within 24 hours.
Hans: I know a fellow that survived the sinking of the Caribou. He spent around 8 hours in the water while the Naval escort, first tried to kill the sub with depth charges (unpleasant experience when you are unprotected in the water) and did not return to the survivors until 6-8 hours later.
When Ken was finally hauled aboard one of the rescue vessels a Canadian sailor asked him if he like a shot of rum . . . his terse reply “Hot coffee, please.”
Ken Vannan is alive today and living in Kingsville Ontario, age 94.
Why is there a [sic] in the quote? “HMCS Athabaskan”is the correct name and correct spelling.
Likely, the rum would have made his blood run thinner…but for anybody who has had an introduction to hypothermia, say 15 minutes in the North Atlantic, the hot coffee may have hit the spot!
6-8 hours in mid October on the North Atlantic, may have required a pot of coffee…
Here is a good recounting of the event:
http://www.heritage.nf.ca/articles/politics/caribou-sinking.php
My father in law around two corners is ex merchant marine; and shared a couple of stories over a cup of coffee around the campfire.
He’s but slowing down a bit, but is still clocking in at 92.
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group ‘True North’
Those Harper-hating commentators are a real hoot. It’s laughable when a group of lefties feign outrage over a perceived lack of spending on the military. Hypocritical … but laughable.
Note this at “Defense Industry Daily” about building ships in Canada–five times too costly (Coast Guard in this instance, more links at article itself):
“Canada’s National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSPS)
…
Oct 7/13: More CCG Ships. Canada’s new Minister of Public Works and Government Services adds up to 10 Canadian Coast Guard ships to the NSPS, and a separate speech says “Vancouver Shipyards will be adding [the C$ 3.3 billion program] to its order books”. This addition would bring the NSPS’ planned total to C$ 38.3 billion, while fulfilling a FY 2012 budget commitment of $5.2 billion over 11 years to renew a very aged but necessary fleet. With that said, C$330 million for each of these 10 new ships is overpriced by a factor of about 5x, which is consistent with a comparison of Canada’s JSS project vs. Britain’s similar MARS/ Tide Class.
The new commitment would add up to 5 more Medium Endurance Multi-Tasked Vessels, which are ~65m, shallow draught ships that can lay/ emplace aids to navigation, and fill basic unarmed patrol and support roles.
Another 5 Offshore Patrol Vessels would be up to 75m long, but their focus would lean more toward fisheries protection than the long-range armed projection/ command and control role of larger OPVs like the Dutch Holland Class external link. They would also perform other basic patrol and support roles…”
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/canadas-national-shipbuilding-strategy-07164/
Mark
Ottawa
Daniel Ream: The “sic” is because in full it reads “The Her Majesty’s Canadian Ship”–which is silly; it’s simply “Her Majesty’s Canadian Ship”.
Mark
Ottawa
The Leopard I’s were heavy tanks(MBTs) too. The reason for acquiring the Leopard II’s was that the Leopard I’s didn’t have air conditioning and the heat built up in the armor severely reduced the combat effectiveness of the crews.
“The Swedes built totally kick ass subs that give the US Navy fits because they’re undetectable! But they’re not good enough for Canada?”
No they are not good enough unless you’re planning to use them on Great Lakes. The Swedes made coastal subs optimized for Baltic (yes yes AIP I know I know) we need nuke powered attacks subs (preferably with cruise missile capability) anything else is next to useless given our situation.
There is a (sic) in the Small Dead Animal’s blog because the Canadian press continually f*$k-up military designations. The ship in question is properly referred to as ‘HMCS Athabaskan’ or ‘the Athabaskan’ or simply ‘Athabaskan’. She, naval ships are still properly considered female, shouldn’t be referred to as ‘the Her Majesty’s Canadian Ship’. ‘The Her Majesty’ is awkward and incorrect and it is infuriating to this 33-year veteran as to how many times this silly mistake is made even in newspapers from Halifax and Victoria.
The same applies to air force units. It is porperly ‘No. 443 Squadron’ or ‘443 Squadron’ or in short ‘443 Sqn’. It is never ‘the 443 Squadron’.
It is even more galling when the MSM throw Americanism into articles regarding the Canadaian military.
Well said Al. Especially your third last paragraph.
Btw, I read the NP everyday and I would suggest that most of the main editorial and comment writers, such as Coyne and Ivison, at the NP are Liberal as they bash Harper and praise Trudeau at every opportunity.
I agree with commentators here about the comments re. the Harper government. What the LIV’s don’t mention is the abysmal history of the Liberal party and the Canadian Forces. The sale of the “Bonny”, the helicopter replacement fiasco, and the latest that no-one here has mentioned the purchase of the British Subs. The Naval budget has been gobbled up by the iron clad contract that the Chretian government signed for subs that will never perform a useful function in the 21st Century. The Harper government has been hog-tied to a contract price that could have seeded a homegrown shipbuilding program. Now trying to play catch-up after nearly 70 years of Liberal indifference the present and future governments will face a no win situation.
One of the major problems with military procurement is that it is NOT done by the Armed Forces. All contracts are negotiated and managed by Supply and Services – a massive bureaucracy in itself. The Armed Forces budget allotted to the purchase of the CP-140 Auroras was sufficient for 21 aircraft – the Air Force got 18 because the money allocated for the other three went to sales tax! This inflated our defence budget to make us look better in the eyes of our NATO allies.
Al in cranbrook i echo the others in say WELL SAID.
Can you immagine the lefty procurment crews being ordered by a conservative gov to start the bidding process and procurment process? They are doing this on purpose with out question , where as a Liberas Gov pays them to do nothing because they have a fetish for dead canadian soldiers.
While do agree it has taken harper awhile to get things going but remember 50billion dollar arm twisting or a coalition gov threat , and they still wanted more spending.
That set us back, the 08/09 market flop, now oil, and an ndp gov in Alberta the engine of our economy. What do people expect.
People have short memories remember it was Harper that restored the queen back to ALL gov and military buildings and restored “ROYAL” to our military and such things Harper loves our military and our soldiers has a profound respect for them he always goes over seas to see them.
This is liberal rats in gov remember just because there is a conservative gov does not mean there are not liberal Harper hating gov employees at every level.
Sell the cbc. move that money over to military , Eliminate foreign aid move that to our military. ba baaamm!! ships tanks fighter jets all made built designed in Canada by Canadians for Canadians.
Paul in calgary: “fighter jets all made built designed in Canada by Canadians for Canadians.” Bring back the Avro Arrow? Really?
https://www.google.ca/search?num=100&q=mackenzie+avro+arrow&oq=mackenzie+avro+arrow&gs_l=serp.3..0i30.89633.91440.0.92557.5.5.0.0.0.0.142.452.4j1.5.0….0…1c.1.64.serp..0.5.449.hnPyUz8ADAM
Mark
Ottawa
The procurement for anything in government is ridiculous. The Ministry of Supply and Services was created by Trudeau in 1969 to spread the pork around. It was folded into the Ministry for Public Works and Government Services by Chretien, remember Alphonse Gagliano?
Regarding the funding required consider this.
“More specifically, in 2013/14 the federal government, which is $688 billion in debt, spent $29.3 billion on interest payments (or more than 11 cents of every dollar of revenue). Meanwhile, it collected $29.9 billion in GST from Canadian taxpayers.”
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/research-news/news/news-releases/Interest-payments-on-government-debt-eat-up-revenue-at-the-expense-of-other-priorities/
Thanks to Trudeau and the idiots who didn’t realize he was buying their votes with their grandchildren’s money, the government has its hands tied.
The role of Destroyers has pretty much been taken over by Frigates, of which, the Canadian Navy has a relatively modern fleet.
Good post and great points there. Well done.
No not really. Our last destroyers served as command ships and had some area defense anti air capability. Our frigates have only short range air defenses and are poorly suited to provide anti-air cover for anyone but themselves. Halifax are multi role ships but their original purpose was sub chasing i.e. a traditional frigate duty.
From article:
“But MacKenzie told the “The West Block” that the Arrow’s basic design and platform still exceed any current fighter jet and it is perfect for Canada’s needs.
“It’s an attack aircraft. It’s designed for attacking ground targets and its stealth is most effective against short range radar, protecting ground targets,” MacKenzie said.
Wrong. The Arrow was an interceptor designed for air-to-air intercepts of high altitude Russian strategic bombers.(which still exist, except that they exist to launch cruise missiles at standoff distance which follow nap-of-the-earth low altitude paths to the target from a couple of thousand kilometers from launchpoint) The Arrow was fast and fast is not what ground attack requires.
Ground attack requires a slow heavily armored plane like the A-10 that can ‘loiter’ in the operational area, take some damage and deliver accurately on target with ground FAC operators providing support by lazing the target. Also the wing configuration of the Arrow and wing loading stats rule against it as a modern 4th generation strike-fighter which should be able to carry almost it’s own weight in ordinance, unless Canada can somehow afford mission specific aircraft,(plus their maintenance cost which is economically unlikely) which is why Canada has been buying multi-role aircraft starting with the acquisition of the CF-18.
The Arrow was narrowly designed to carry a few AA missiles to fill the niche of that late ’50s which required it to defeat high altitude heavy strategic bombers dropping dumb bombs that had no propulsion system. It would have been perfect for the job then, but the loss of AVROE and Canada’s military aerospace industry realistically means we could not do it today, even if we had the money, which we don’t.
In the reality we live in today, better spent would be money developing Canadian nuclear weapons and the ability to deliver them than to try and defend against an enemy delivering one.
If you have to choose between having a sword and a shield it is best to have a sword because an enemy will eventually get past your shield and if you have a sword it is at least a deterrent to attack in the first place, where a shield is merely a challenge to attack.
NEWS FLASH MARK!
The National Post hasn’t been a conservative rag since Conrad Black dumped it and then Mark Steyn left …. etc. It’s a liberal rag now.
During the dayof the Big Bad Soviet Union we shrank our military under the demacrats(Carter,Clinton)They increased their military and even though there is no longer a Big Bad Soviet Union our enemies increase their militaries while we decrease ours Typical of brain-dead liberals
Thank you for the clarifications. TIL, etc.
“After 40 years, a ship is pretty much clapped-out…”
In a nutshell. The problem is with our military mindset as a nation, not just with the Conservatives.
We simply don’t want to pay for a standing programme of graduated shipbuilding that would see new ships routinely replacing older ones.
The Canadian military procurement methodology has almost always been: buy a fleet of equipment, use it for as long as possible by running it right into the ground, then desperately run out and buy a new fleet.
Oh, and add to the fun by occasionally cancelling procurement programmes wholesale and at massive cost.
“…we need nuke powered attacks subs..”
Uber quiet diesel electric Dolphins are preferably — no sonar signature for Russkies to pick up.
Canadians don’t want to pay for the military we need. Nato recommends a country spend 2% of GDP on military. Canada spends 1%.
What to do?
Current budget for the military is about $20 billion a year. Where would the next $20 billion come from? You’d have to raise the GST to 8% to make $20 billion. Or we’d all have to pay an extra $1000 a year on income tax to make up that difference.
I say just run an annual $20 billion deficit. If Harper doesn’t rack up debt now, some Liberal or Dipper down the line will and we’ll be stuck with fields of useless windmills and Soviet-styled daycares.
It is a shame that a country could be so addicted to spending Other People’s
Money on social welfare programs that they ignore their own defense. We
will all be in a world of shit if this keeps up. I remember reading somewhere
that Canada had a pretty good sized navy in WWII.
“Canada had a pretty good sized navy in WWII”
BTW
The wardroom @ HMCS Stadacona land base (Halifax 1963) had the most fantastic Oil painting of “Ships on the North Atlantic” (Wall mural) Stand close enough & you got a greenie
Kinda think WW11 Destroyers were much bigger than today (don’t remember but 4 Canadian… Ottawa class) Corvettes & DE DEH Bonaventure
I never need to see another “Canada at War” film
Oya? Can Collins accelerate like an SSN? You know that once it fires it gets detected no matter what? The point isn’t to have sub that can engage a single target and then run like brave Sir Robin. Can it move at a comparable speed to a deployment point at the other end of the planet? Does it have the endurance to stay there deployed with minimal to no outside support? The answer to all those questions is: NO. Collins is a green water boat a very nice one but Australians would have been better off with SSNs except that these were politically infeasible. To have true permanent meaningful blue water capability Canadian Navy needs five to six SSNs, Virginia or Astute are the only feasible choices.
As for the sonar signature of modern SSNs versus Collins the true info is classified we do not know how quiet these boats really are.
Sorry above somehow I thought you said Collins not Dolphin.
Dolphin? Seriously? Surely you’re joking. These are optimized for Mediterranean. Coastal Subs, not even green water but essentially brown water/littoral warfare boats.