I will be travelling to #Ukraine next week to meet with the interim Government. #cdnpoli
— Stephen Harper (@pmharper) March 14, 2014
Related: Fed Custody Holdings Record Decline Fuels Russia Speculation (It’s probably nothing).
I will be travelling to #Ukraine next week to meet with the interim Government. #cdnpoli
— Stephen Harper (@pmharper) March 14, 2014
Related: Fed Custody Holdings Record Decline Fuels Russia Speculation (It’s probably nothing).
I doubt Harper’s going will make a speck of difference but I certainly admire his willingness to support a sovereign state.
But what sort of support makes sense?
Probably the most important thing at the moment is avoiding a shooting war. Borders are going to be changed. There is not a lot which can be done to stop that and the Russians are certainly smart enough to avoid doing de jure what they can accomplish de facto.
So if that is job #1, what’s job #2? As max points out above, the Ukrainian political situation is not straightforward. There are factions who are fascist, there are factions who are in it for the money and there are factions who are actual democrats; Harper needs to provide encouragement for the democrats and avoid giving succour to a rather nasty right wing. This is manageable and useful if he is well advised.
The third job is increasing the cost of Russian aggression and that is a long term process. Isolating Putin is not really an option simply because he and his regime are a very big part of the diplomatic and economic system the world operates on. Serious sanctions would probably hurt Europe as much as they hurt Russia.
Probably the most effective thing Canada (and the US) can do is to push forward export capacity for natural gas. At this point Putin, for a little while, can put his boot on Europe’s throat because there is no other viable source of natural gas. Meanwhile, the boys at the Bakken are flaring off gas. That means building the export terminals and the pipelines possibly to both of Canada’s coasts (sorry Indians, this is actually important.)
Next up, what might be called “positive” sanctions. Encourage Russian immigration to Canada, offer university places to good Russian and Ukrainian students, encourage Canadians to explore Ukrainian business opportunities. Go drill the Ukrainian shale.
Harper can have a huge impact. And he should look at the ways in which that impact can actually improve the lives of Ukrainians while sending a clear message to Russia that we will tangibly support free countries.
“people who want to continue buying incandescent bulbs would too be free to do so as well. ”
I’m free to buy the incandescent bulbs I need, too bad you feel you can’t.
you have a nice day now
I AM with you prime Minister Harper, Putin the Russian is in expansion mode!
And get that DEMPSTER HIGHWAY extension built farther North and soon!
“I’m free to buy the incandescent bulbs…”
With all due respect (guess how much that is?), no, you are not free to buy regular 100 watt bulbs off the shelf from a local store. Soon you will not be able to buy 60 and 40 watt bulbs. That is a fact.
John Baird has just promised $220 million in foreign aid to Ukraine
That’s money that should be spent in Canada for Canadians instead of pissing it away on some foreign country that does nothing for Canada.
North of 60…Are you retarded?
You by your own admition know that the harper gov BANNED THE SALE OF THEM….then you go and say “I’m free to buy the incandescent bulbs I need, too bad you feel you can’t.
you have a nice day now”
Seriously? listen to yourself it has nothing to do with the greenie weenies, or anything else to me and it has everything to do with freedom and choice in a liberal democracy.
Why can’t I if I so choose go to my local co-op or super value or what have you and choose the bulb of my choice?
What makes Stephen harper the arbiter of my freedom and liberty not to mention the arbiter of what a company can sell or not sell? As I stated above I don’t give a fark about global warming , climate change or any other chicken little crap!! i care about a cheap way to light my home garage or what have you and it’s my choice to choose what i want to use it’s not the gov choice to decide what is available. REMEBER THEY BANNED THE SALE OR DISTIBUTION OF THEM!!
You also stated “A government has to represent all Canadians, not just your viewpoint”
And that means representing my viewpoint as well as yours. and just because you like the decision or agree with it doesn’t\t make it fair. so however you light your home how would you like it if they banned those light bulbs as well would you be ok with that? that is the root of the problem they took away one of my choices and my freedoms.
You intentionally missed that point because to happen to agree with it but what if you didn’t ?
For and old sack you sure are ignorant!!
It has nothing to do with viewpoints. and everything to do with freedom.
and you are not very smart if you thing this was preserving freedom or liberty forget about the light bulbs or anything else , do you have more or less freedom than you did before this shit law was passed? don’t be anignoramous and answer the question honestly.
personal insults? that’s your best shot? disappointing to say the least.
What part of “I’m free to buy the incandescent bulbs I need” escaped your grasp?
further comments from those who play at personal insults will be ignored
you have a nice day too
I think I’m going to read comments about the topic and instead, with only 8 words (see 5.28), Paul in Calgary managed to hijack a serious topic. Why the hell are the incandescent light bulbs important enough to take your attention off what is a very serious situation when the damn subject has been discussed on SDA for months?
When I swear that much, I’m really ticked!
Now, get back on track as I want to read what you really think about the situation.
And, thanks PM Harper for showing leadership. There’s none from our good neighbour to the south and not likely to be any.
What justification is there for sending $220M of our hard earned tax dollars to Ukraine, or anyone else for that matter, with the possible exception for humanitarian disaster relief.
humanitarian disaster relief…that is precisely what the invading Russians are working up towards.
As for all those, further up the thread, suggesting that the new government is somehow a fascist relic from days gone by this is undercut by the following:
http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/analysis/116449/ukrainian-rabbis-come-out-against-russia
Ukrainian Rabbis come out against Russia
World leaders are scratching their heads in an effort to divine Russian President Vladimir Putin’s next move. How far will he go? Will he annex Crimea? Will he send his troops further into eastern Ukraine?
Meanwhile, Ukraine’s Jewish leaders have made a brave joint decision to overcome their disunity and publicly support the new government in Kiev.
This support has come in a variety of ways. There have been open letters lambasting the Russian invasion of Crimea and the Kremlin’s incessant undermining of the pro-European government. Rabbis have spoken out, saying that recent acts of vandalism against synagogues could well have been the work of Russian provocateurs. In addition, oligarch Igor Kolomoyski, president of the Dnipropetrovsk community, has agreed to serve as emergency governor of his province on behalf of the government.
The Jewish community is taking a sizable risk here: Mr Putin is a dangerous enemy to have.
The elections in May could yet yield a different pro-Russian government, and what if there is another invasion further inland? They are also consciously downplaying the antisemitism that they, better than any outsiders, know exists within Ukrainian society and more worryingly, in some of the parties of the new coalition in Kiev.
But this is not simply a wager that Russia will not dare go further with its invasion and fail to topple the government. What they are saying is much braver and more important.
To Putin they are saying: we will no longer allow the Kremlin to use the antisemitism card as an excuse for its expansionist policies. The Jews do not need Russia’s protection.
To their own compatriots, they are saying, “Ukraine for the Ukrainians” cannot be a xenophobic rallying cry. For the country to preserve its unity and independence, all its groups, ethnic Ukrainians and Russians, Muslim Tatars and Jews, Moldovans, Magyars and all the rest, have to put aside their old prejudices and hatreds and treat each other as equal citizens.
It is a pivotal moment in Jewish history in a part of the world that has seen so many pogroms and blood-libels, and so much persecution of Jews. It could also be key in ensuring Ukraine’s freedom from Russian hegemony.
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
Oh that is rich. Mr “hard earned tax dollars” all of a sudden sees justification for foreign spending when said dollars are spent on “humanitarian disasters.”
Humanitarian relief is something for private institutions to do. Using tax payer money for strategic initiatives is for the government to do. Now I don’t believe that Harper should be sending money to Ukraine, but that is a different matter entirely.
Actually I’d rather have said funds used to poke Putin in an eye than have them dumped in a bottomless pit like for ex Haiti, Somalia or another third world shithole. But if it will make you feel better Putin is a walking talking “humanitarian disaster”. There feel better now?
Kindly bitch at North of 60 not Paul.
Oh that is rich. Mr “hard earned tax dollars” all of a sudden sees justification for foreign spending when said dollars are spent on “humanitarian disasters.”
Humanitarian relief is something for private institutions to do. Using tax payer money for strategic initiatives is for the government to do. Now I don’t believe that Harper should be sending money to Ukraine, but that is a different matter entirely.
Actually I’d rather have said funds used to poke Putin in an eye than have them dumped in a bottomless pit like for ex Haiti, Somalia or another third world shithole. But if it will make you feel better Putin is a walking talking “humanitarian disaster”. There, feeling better now?
By “humanitarian disaster relief” I referred to situations like sending our DART team to earthquake and tsunami disasters.
Political ‘disasters’ don’t count. That would be meddling. They don’t need our help, they can muddle through on their own.
Don’t jump to unjustified conclusions to further your agenda Hans.
What agenda are you referring to…?
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
The Crimean ‘referendum’ is a joke. It’s being conducted under occupation in an environment where pro-Ukraine activists are harassed and even assaulted. There is no status quo option-as in ‘before Russian invasion’-on the ballot. It’s either straight into Russia’s bear claws or ‘restore the 1992 situation’, which is the slow track into the Russian bear claws.
Yes I know you what meant.
Sending DART to Haiti or Indonesia = waste of taxpayer’s dollars, complete utter and unforgivable. Well I suppose they can use some training but as far as I am concerned welfare of Haitians or Indonesians should be left in the hands of private charities.
Spending money to hurt Putin = smart policy of a thinking western leader (if done effectively which I doubt, but it has theoretical potential).
Meddling is good. Not meddling is an idiotic utopian dream. Power abhors vacuum. But then you know it already. You are just a leftist troll pretending to be an isolationist libertarian.
your rant about “humanitarian disaster relief…that is precisely what the invading Russians are working up towards.”
Those who can’t carry on an objective adult discussion and instead resort to personal insults while cowardly hiding behind their keyboard need to go to their local pub to do that and get a much needed lesson in civility.
Those who engage in such childish antics will be ignored.
Spending money to hurt Putin = smart policy of a thinking western leader (if done effectively which I doubt, but it has theoretical potential).
Smart? In what context? Certainly not in the context of protecting Canadian’s rights which are violated by having their money taken from them and thrown to whatever catches the PM’s whimsy and lets him grandstand to the max. I hate Putin but that doesn’t mean our government should act on that. You are free to donate your money as you see fit. I might have a different view if I were Poland or in that neighborhood.
Meddling is good. Not meddling is an idiotic utopian dream. Power abhors vacuum.
Think about that statement. Meddling, regardless of context or situational parameters, is always good. Not ‘meddling’ ie finding ways to PO powerful nations and blow hundreds of millions of dollars is ‘utopian’. Because ‘power abhors a vacuum’, as if that concerns us. WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH EURASIA.
That is ok I’ll continue ridiculing you nevertheless.
Let’s see; PM Harper goes to Ukraine because he has been effective in stripping away the European bureaucratic bullroar and will be in a better position to accomplish this from his trip.
I think the deflection into a discussion about light bulbs is unfortunate if indeed not part of an agenda. Cheers;
Is it OK for other countries to meddle in Canada’s affairs?
Perhaps those who advocate meddling believe in a double standard.
Every world power is meddling, it is just that some idiot westerners feel guilty when someone does it in their interest. Russians, Chinese, Saudis all meddle and don’t feel a least bit guilty about it. Their meddling is not neutral to the western world. Take Saudi meddling in Canadian energy policy, or Iranian meddling in our native affairs as perfect examples of that. Yet somehow when the west meddles the self flagellating isolationists see this as an unprecedented cardinal sin. Meanwhile, back in the real world, doing nothing means losing initiative in a constant international power struggle. A struggle that our civilization has lately been loosing on all fronts.
Weak Russia is in the interest of NATO and the western world. I am happy that Harper is taking some initiative, no matter how trivial. Now, if you believe otherwise, meaning that it would be better for Canada if Russia was stronger then state your beliefs. In that case perhaps Harper should be supporting Putin. That would be meddling too. Just don’t hide behind the hypocritical isolationist mask only because you know that your opinions will never be accepted.
I will be 86 in 6 months and I’ll bitch at whomever I wish, thank you very much. It is never done with any viciousness nor is it a personal attack. I’ve spent my life being polite and I have found, now that I’m crippled with the pain of osteoarthritis and fibromyalgia, that it’s easy to forget to smile and say something pleasant all the time.
The light bulbs have been debated to death and I have a closet shelf filled with them because the issue is now over.
But I do want to read the discussion about the important issue before the world right now. I know enough about the suffering of Ukrainians to have great empathy, and I don’t trust Putin for a nano-second.
SDA keeps me on my toes and, with thanks to Kate, I’m grateful for that.
it is just that some idiot westerners feel guilty when someone does it in their interest.
Nothing-not one thing-in your post demonstrates that this is ‘in our interests’. Meddling in Iran to overthrow their government? In our interests. The obsolete military alliance (NATO) that is effectively military welfare for Eurotrash? Not in our interests.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, doing nothing means losing initiative in a constant international power struggle. A struggle that our civilization has lately been loosing on all fronts.
The real world sure is a vague and nebulous place. Question to Colonialista and other area NeoCons: is it ever not 1938? Is there any foreign bad guy who won’t be the next Hitler unless we ‘do something’?
Please leave me out of your colletivist fantasies. I’ve heard them all before and Cold War 2: Electric Coldwaragaloo is just the latest warmed over neoconservative BS. If you want to ‘fight for civilization’ go ahead and do it yourself. Maybe we’ll start a kickstarter. We provide the funds and a GoPro camera. You buy the guns do the fighting and let us watch live. You’ll be Rambo. I would totes contribute to that.
Good. However, if Harper really wanted to hurt Putin, he would help Ukraine and Poland develop their shale fields or help them acquire weapons.
God knows one can’t rely on the US to do anything useful. Didn’t it promise to look after Ukraine if it handed its weapons to Russia? How splendidly that worked out.
There is only so much any country can and should do. However, if nothing is done, anyone is next. Will we be cap-in-hand with Russia in the Arctic?
Be it as it may, the point still stands. It was not Paul who started the discussion your objected to and your outrage should logically be directed at the one who did. I think this basic logic applies regardless of your age.
If you want to ‘fight for civilization’ go ahead and do it yourself. Maybe we’ll start a kickstarter. We provide the funds and a GoPro camera. You buy the guns do the fighting and let us watch live.
exactly!! If someone wants to meddle then they can go over there and put their life on the line, not cowardly hiding behind a keyboard and expecting someone else to do their dirty work.
Over the last few years I have come to know several young Ukrainians who are now living and working in Canada. Out of curiosity I asked them about the turmoil. They all explained that corruption is the norm in Ukraine. It didn’t matter who was president or who was prime minister as they were all utterly corrupt. In that vein I wish that PM Harper, whom I support, would simply stay home. This has all the makings of another Libya where the evil doer in power was only slightly less evil than the would be usurper. I’m not an isolationist by any stretch but I have yet to see a productive way forward by supporting one side or the other. Oh well at least PM Harper isn’t heading over there with a ‘Reset’ button.
Ok so despite foaming from your mouth you agree on a fundamental issue. You are not outraged that Harper meddles. You simply believe that he is not acting in Canada’s interest. And had he acted in Canada’s interest then you would be fine with meddling? Correct? Good then drop the phony outrage.
Or at lest you did before you went on the “neocon” rant.
“Question to Colonialista and other area NeoCons: is it ever not 1938? ”
Never of course.
“Is there any foreign bad guy who won’t be the next Hitler unless we ‘do something’?”
Occasionally, maybe. Still better safe than sorry. Replace him with our sonofabitch at the earliest convenience. Probably better for all concerned, although mistakes are made from time to time.
Saudis or Chinese know it well and it is precisely because they act the way you accuse “neocons” (whatever that means) of acting they are so successful and their power is growing. I’d like them to be less successful, same for the Putinista junta.
That would be an excellent idea, had Poland’s foreign policy wasn’t decided in Berlin. Indeed I don;t believe that Harper’s initiative will have much impact. But I object to it based on technicality not on isolationist (Putin fellating) principle.
“They all explained that corruption is the norm in Ukraine.”
[…]
“I’m not an isolationist by any stretch but I have yet to see a productive way forward by supporting one side or the other.”~Joe
You begin by talking about Ukrainians you should end by talking about Ukrainians.
I myself am on the Ukrainian side, with PMSH.
Now Russia*, that’s a foreign country that should have stayed on their side of the border and not have invaded Ukraine.
*Russia is a famously corrupt country where corruption is the norm
Ukrainians who are now living and working in Canada. Out of curiosity I asked them about the turmoil. They all explained that corruption is the norm in Ukraine. It didn’t matter who was president or who was prime minister as they were all utterly corrupt.
Yup, I’ve heard similar stories, they all say it’s corrupt. That’s why we shouldn’t be sending money, or in any way interfering in what’s going on over there. Putin is doing a better job than a lot of so called ‘leaders’. His way may well be the best thing for that part of the world.
It’s basically none of our business.
Meddling is what got us into Afghanistan, wasting billions and too many Canadian lives, and what good did that do? It’s just as fup-duck as it was before.
“exactly!! If someone wants to meddle then they can go over there and put their life on the line, not cowardly hiding behind a keyboard and expecting someone else to do their dirty work.”
Wow the useful idiot hysteria is reaching a fever pitch. Exactly whose life is Harper putting on the line now?
“Putin is doing a better job than a lot of so called ‘leaders’. His way may well be the best thing for that part of the world.”
And that is all that there is behind all that phony non meddling drivel, isn’t it? Like the rest of isolationists you simply are rooting for the other side. Check mate.
“It is about the Russian pipeline network that feeds Europe, plain and simple. Ukraine is, as you can see, a pretty damn important piece in the Russian energy distribution network.
–
President Reagan warned us in 1981 that this would happen.
http://reclaimourrepublic.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/reagan-admin-warned-russian-pipeline-through-ukraine-would-weaken-west/
Now we have a runt in the WH and war about to happen in Ukraine.
Russia’s energy dominance has made it virtually impossible for some U.S. allies in Western Europe to operate without some level of approval from the Kremlin.
As of 2009, Europe receives natural gas via 12 Russian pipelines, and many importers are key members of NATO including Austria, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Poland and the Czech Republic.
The Kremlin’s power over Europe’s energy supply places the White House in a weakened position at a time when Present Obumbles is reversing Reagan achievements with sweeping military cutbacks and canceling European missile shields.
“This president opened the doors to Putin,
and Putin knew he had the power when this president made the decision not to follow on his red line on Syria.
Putin knew he had him then,” Mr. Eastland said.
“Meddling is what got us into Afghanistan”
Al Qaeda launched an attack on a NATO member country from Afghanistan and the de facto government of Afghanistan gave the perpetrators sanctuary. NATO article 5 got us into Afghanistan.
Either you don’t know that or you’re one of those people who doesn’t honor contractual agreements.
America Never Fear.
John (lurch) Kerry will force Putin to surrender his plans for the Ukraine.
He has reported for duty, (salute)
Gas, or no gas..
I figure anyone, who thinks they understand it, has not been properly briefed.
And what pray tell are 8500 troops and 270 tanks lining the border all about…?
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/14/prepare-for-war-at-any-moment-ukrainian-president-warns-after-putin-sends-8500-soldiers-270-tanks-to-border/
Prepare for war ‘at any moment,’ Ukrainian president warns after Putin sends 8,500 soldiers, 270 tanks to border
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-14/russia-us-remain-odds-over-ukraine-sanctions-counterproductive-and-tanks-are-coming
With Interfax reporting that Belarus has begun full-scale military drills in a “readiness check”, images from Russia and Ukraine suggest the worst-case scenario – that Russia is making preparations to invade Ukraine, not just Crimea but perhaps as far west as Kharkiv, or even beyond – is more possible. Talks have broken down:
*LAVROV SAYS RUSSIA, U.S. REMAIN AT ODDS ON UKRAINE: INTERFAX
*LAVROV SAYS RUSSIA TO RESPECT `WILL’ OF CRIMEAN PEOPLE
Russia now has a massive force of tanks, troops, artillery, aircraft, and naval forces in position to potentially invade mainland Ukraine from Crimea in the south, but also from positions east and north of Ukraine.
Don’t hide behind your keyboard like a coward, take your personal insults to your local pub and get a much needed lesson in civility.
Not hiding behind any keyboard or making insults; merely observing facts and drawing conclusions…
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/13/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA1Q1E820140313
In an unusually robust and emotional speech, German Chancellor Angela Merkel warned of “catastrophe” unless Russia changes course, while in Ukraine a man died in fighting between rival protesters in a mainly Russian-speaking city.
In Berlin, Merkel removed any suspicion that she might try to avoid a confrontation with Russian President Vladimir Putin,
“We would not only see it, also as neighbors of Russia, as a threat. And it would not only change the European Union’s relationship with Russia,” she told parliament. “No, this would also cause massive damage to Russia, economically and politically.”
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
Maybe instead of sounding like a broken record you could elaborate on whose life has evil Harper put in danger? Please elaborate on this brilliant thought.
Don’t throw around personal insults as in the end it cheapens your arguments.
Taking out 270 tanks is pretty trivial, the west can do this in about a day. The goal is to take away the enemy’s will to fight.
During and after the Cold War both sides of the conflict are supposed to alert the other side of troop movements along the borders to avoid accidental nuclear war. At his press conference Kerry refused to affirm that he was aware of the Russian troop exercises ahead of time. In other words, the Russians did not alert the allies, in violation of this agreement. And Kerry is letting them get away with this.
A summary of EUSSR involvement
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=84766
Hans @ 1:41 AM, add a zero to your troop number and make that 85,000 troops.
sasquatch, exactly. It is as broad as it is long. Ukraine, given time and with some help, might be able to make the transition to a western style democracy, and Russia, not in the foreseeable future. Although, given the state of our universities and the bent of many of our politicians and their PC policies, democracy is fast becoming an illusion.
Oz @ 1:11, that is exactly what happened.
Let see how many people I can pee off with this. The Ukraine’s have zero dollars which means someone has to take them over with dollars or take them over with tanks. The Italians and Greeks were taken over with Euro’s. Eastern Ukraine at least will probably be taken over slowly by tanks. Since nobody is sending in enough money.
Harper is taking 220 million Canadian Dollars which is about the size of the dog we have in this fight. Their back payments to Russia for gas is 1.8 billion so Putin is sends his thanks.
Harper is the big man on campus telling Putin this and Putin that but radical nuts at home not so much and has done squat about the gun seizure in High River. Wimp.
Canada uses soft tyranny to control our lives. Human right tribunals, government health care, closed marketing boards and closed education systems. The light bulb issue just illuminates this. It will be argued that it is better then Putin fine but soft tyranny always leads to Putin.
We did not care about Ukraine before and now we can care all we want but we will have no say on the outcome. For the main reason Obama will huff and puff and then go to a fund raiser because if he will not ok Keystone because of his base then there is no way he is going to war over the Ukraine for the same reason.
last and least insults are just part of the game.
Have a nice day.