Are Quebecers tired of the same old, same old or is something else at work? You decide.
51 Replies to “The Forthcoming Quebec Spring?”
Quebec people generally go towards anything they consider benefits Quebec..and will do so suddenly, as witnessed in May’s election results. They find themselves unable to deal with issues foreign to them. An example would be when they realized the rest of Canada doesn’t consider them special.
The sooner we can show these Quebequios parasites the door the better off our country will be.
PWC, I agree. Quebecers, en masse, vote for what they believe benefits Quebec. For 35 years they have elected Separatists, which has allowed Quebec to gain great concessions and $ from the ROC. The separatist model is no longer working because the ROC (thanks to Harper) no longer caters to Quebec. The Liberals, for 40 years, have trumpeted the threat of Quebec separation for their own political power, while risking the country.
Harper’s steady hand (some say luck) is causing a realignment of Canada politically, which will be felt for decades.
La belle provence, Canada’s very own disconnected-from-reality Greece.
Bon voyage, παράσιτα!
An even bigger realignment will come when House of Commons seats will be redistributed to more accurately reflect representation by population.
That’s when you’ll hear even more whining about how unfairly they’re being treated by the rest of Canada.
Seems to me the fragmentation of Quebec politics is the positionng of various mobs to see who can scream the loudest about their own unwillingless to replenish their populations.
As a Quebecer, I thank you for those kind thoughts.
W Johnson has no concept of QC today (he really never did).
The fragmentationn is a result of the fact that most Quebecers realize that they are now, for all intents and purposes, independent. Come here and see – the federal presence is invisible.
This is the reason for the swing to NDP (nothing to do with wacky jacky).
Quebec does its own thing and gets billions from ROC. Why change? Better to use the system and try to elect socialists who won’t rock the boat.
For ROC, it was a good thing that a majority federal government (regardless of party), was elected without owing anything to QC.
ROC can live without QC, but QC cannot live (at present standards) without ROC.
I still feel bad they never voted for seperating in one of the two votes.. Canada,s own broken loadstone. Quebec.
The Forthcoming Quebec Spring? We can hope.
Is that the spring were they sit around sipping maple syrup, and chirp send old money, new money all gone. That will never change, they may change their pitch men but the message is always you owe me because I am French, send me money fifi and poo poo…..
Ever notice how France and the french became internationally irrelevant after the Revolution?
And what’s the latest with the “Poor me! Poor us and We’re so humiliated” Quebecers? Now they are bellyaching because there aren’t enough French Canadian defencemen in the NHL!!
It seems every aspect of what goes on in Canada is viewed by Quebecers as being of no concern unless they can selfishly gain something from it. I suppose it’s difficult to blame them because after generations of whining about anything and everything they are invariably rewarded with generous pandering from ROC.
I fervently hope this pandering, bowing and scraping to the professional whiners and criers of Quebec has come to an end with the arrival of the new and energetic West with its growing populations and hardened attitude toward the corrupt political shysters of Quebec and their “Me, Me, Me!” attitude. I just want them to “Go, Go, Go!” We’ve had enough.
The ROC of Canada should hold a referendum asking whether we want to keep Quebec or let it go. I think we’d vote to let it go. Many of us are tired of the whining, the bitching and the greed. It’s time for Quebecers to grow up and become responsible members of the country or piss off.
Next Quebec referendum, the rest of Canada gets to vote.
If Quebec ever became separate it would be an enormous fiscal, linguistic and cultural shock.
First – Canada as a nation would drop its ‘faux bilingualism’. This would be an enormous financial savings to Canada. How would Quebec, which already defines itself as unilingual, fare?
Linguistically. Quebec, as isolate within a North America that is anglophone, would be obliged to become bilingual. It has cocooned itself from this reality by the irresponsible Trudeau Charter, which has nothing to do with rights, and indeed, denigrates individual to group rights – but is a policy focused on inserting bilingualism within Canada. This bilingualism has effectively protected Quebec from having to deal with the ROC and the US – in English.
With this protective wall gone…Quebec would have to wake up to reality – and acknowledge that it MUST communicate in English. I think this would be as much of a shock, if not more, than the economic shock.
The preferential treatment of Quebec companies, of head offices based in Quebec, of ‘dairy subsidies’ and so on – gone. Quebec would have to operate in a free, competitive market economy – and it’s not used to that. It’s not impossible but it would take time.
Second, of course, we are aware of the debt problem and its share of the national debt. Knowing Quebec, it would try for ‘forgiveness’ or some similar tactic. And, there’s the land problem; the native lands are under federal not provincial jurisdiction. …these aren’t unsolvable but they are not easy problems.
Then, there’s Quebec’s socialism which has been supported by massive federal grants and ‘preference’ locations. That is, hordes of Quebec intelligentsia are employed by the federal govt, with offices in, not merely Hull but in Montreal. Gone. Vanished. Unemployed.
And – there are a lot of ‘head offices’ graciously ‘given’ to Quebec by companies ..Gone. Vanished. Unemployed.
Then, there’s communication – Would Quebec decide to set up tariffs for movement through Quebec to the Maritimes? Wouldn’t work.
I really think that the biggest shock would be linguistic. The Charter has isolated Quebec from linguistic and societal reality – for that Charter is really ‘all about Quebec’ and this cocoon would be gone.
The recalculation of House of Commons seats is being vigorously rejected by Quebec; they are insisting that they get MORE seats than their population allows…because they are self-defining that their ‘role’ in Canada is ‘more important’ than population. Hmmm.
From my perspective Ontario and Quebec have a symbiotic existence. If Quebec goes Ontario loses its primary place in confederation. As it is Ontario is well on its way to losing that status anyways but understanding how Ontario fighting Quebec has served to keep the realms in line is important in understanding ‘political Canada’.
Quebec has lost relevance in the past two decades. The general mood in western Canada is, shape up or ship out. We don’t really care which it is, either.
The shape of a country on the map is no longer the issue it was before the internet age. I have to admit, I would prefer that they left, found their own way, and left us to find our own way.
The problem is that in Ontario, there are too many who are willing to put up with sulky, high-maintenance Quebec. Was the sex that good?
ET
you are aware that N America is comprized of 5 sovereign nations, France being one of those:-))))
actually I read an imteresting article some years ago that defined the bounderies that Quebec entered Canada with, and that ROC could dictate that they return to those bounderies if they separate, as, they “recieved” the additional land as part of the agreement to become part of Canada. It would be interesting to watch a separation play out, aside from the whining and moaning done by the frenckies
This nation is a divided nation because of the reality of a province that refuses to share – a province that takes and never contributes. The ROC would, as ET says, be better off without the albatross. Quebec has become a non entity in most of our lives because thinking of it makes us angry and ruins our day. The ROC will pressure the Feds to end the subsidization of the ungrateful whining gov’ts and the people in a province that we consider foreign. It is foreign because the Quebec society has made it so – an English speaking Westerner is not welcome in Quebec, why would we ever go there when there are so many other nice places to visit where we are welcome; Quebecers come to the west though, and they demand and get concessions – maybe it is time for us, in the west, to stop being used as a Quebec doormat.
I like others would vote to set Quebec ‘free’ to pursue it’s own destiny. The separation need not be nasty – the Czech Republic managed to have an friendly ‘divorce’, so can Canada. We would all be better off, IMO.
“… Ever notice how France and the french became internationally irrelevant after the Revolution?”
Actually, no, I hadn’t. Napoleon was seriously irrelevant, I guess you’d say. And the blood and treasure England poured into containing France – irrelevant, I guess you’d say.
France, after 1812, was a spent force – but irrelevant ..? Definitely NOT. Perhaps you’d say that Hitler and the Germans were irrelevant, too. Do you want to go there..?
“Next Quebec referendum, the rest of Canada gets to vote.”
Hear, hear !!!!
It can’t come too soon.
Farkin’ parasites and entitlement piglets.
It’s pretty clear that Quebec will never separate. They really aren’t interested. Our friend jlc has it more or less right. There’s nothing Quebec wants to do that requires sovereignty.
Of course it wasn’t federal bilingualism that mattered, it was Bill 101. All that concerned Quebeckers was not having to speak English. When they got that they realized they were happy.
We’d be much better off getting rid of Quebec, but I don’t see that happening either. People basically want things to be same as they were yesterday. No change. Not an unreasonable position, considering the changes imposed on us over the last century and how badly they tended to turn out.
Cut off federal transfer payments to Quebec until it is a signatory of the constitution. They should be able to give the ROC the finger OR get paid, not both.
Michael St. Paul’s said it all. Set you free’s comment at 3:16 is just about the stupidest comment that has ever appeared on this site.
Gym, you are quite right. Quebec does not have sovereignty over the District of Ungava, and it would revert to Canada upon separation. If Quebec tried to retain it, the Northern Cree would resist, quite possibly violently.
That’s why Jacques Parizeau tried to take some preliminary steps to creating a Quebec national armed force prior to the 1996 referendum. It’s also why starting in the 1960s, Rene Levesque, starting with his post as Energy Minister in the Lesage government pursued conquest by flooding in building as much electric generation and transmission infrastructure as possible all over northern Quebec.
But on the main question, Johnston is at least partly right. Quebec’s political history is riddled with illusions and mythmaking. The question is why is it happening now. The short answer is likely that for the first time since Confederation, Quebec has no meaningful role in guiding the federal government, and the two separatist parties, BQ and PQ, have no answer to this conundrum. Which is why both of them are falling apart.
I wonder if Eastern Quebec will separate from the rest of Quebec?
Peter O’Donnell at 4:20pm
Yes, yes indeed…the sex was good! But after spending 12 years working in la Belle Province, not that good. I couldn’t wait to leave.
it’s all summed up in their license plate ‘Je me Souviens’ – but what exactly are they remembering?
I’d bet that any politician in Quebec who decided to change the license plate to something about the future would do well.
Step one cut equalization payments. The only reason they qualify is because of their socialist spending.
Then give them the option, 1.join Canada or 2. pay your bills, take what you came with and get out.
I prefer the second option.
‘Farkin’ parasites and entitlement piglets.’ North of 60 – if you live N. of 60, you qualify as another ‘parasite entitlement piglet’ – millions are poured into the N. and shoveled out to pals of he lefty governments and gument employees in the geographical areas N. of 60.
I can’t see a problem with Quebec that can’t be solved by a massive tax cut. No transfer payments, no problem.
Quebec, like the ROC, suffers from too much -government-. Remove that and the realities of the market will make themselves felt. People will rise to the challenge, with great success.
There’s probably a big opportunity for French language and Quebec culture in mass media alone, absent government regulation and handouts. American culture has been done to death, they need new material.
Ah, the spirit of Quebec….. In the family that is Canada, Quebec is the baby brother/sister that whines on those long family trips. Thus getting the window seat, first dibs on those snacks Mom made, choice of the radio station we all have to listen to and as much elbow room as he/she desired. sticking their tounge out at us, while our Mom & Dad weren’t looking.
*Deep down we wanted to slap our spoiled rotten sibling’s back of the head, knowing the consequences would be severe….but worth it!
Well I love my country, swore to defend it and it’s entirity. It’s about time we grab our little sibling, put ’em against the wall & say,”enough”.
Now I had two solutions for this issue, one more civilized than it’s original concept. So please allow me to vent….my quarter’s worth.
This land all of it IS Canada, if you don’t like it, by a buss ticket & go. The Canadian Army should sweep through the Province of Quebec and sort out the seperatists, those no longer willing to be Canadian will be escorted on a bus, with 2 suitcases full of their belongings and driven to a port, where a big cargo ship will be awaiting them. The ship will be sent to St. Pierre & Micheloin Islands, where they will be dropped off as displaced persons. YOU NO LONGER WISH TO BE CANADIAN, THEN YOU WONT BE. you are now a refugee for France, their burdon, not ours! They can put their hands out and beg for francs / euros & France can thank de Gaulle for that…”Viva quebec Libre’….. Jerk, if it wasn’t for us. You would have been dead long ago, or spouting German!
Any party spouting seperation is a domestic terrorist and should be dealt with quick & harshly.
* if you think that solution was harsh, my original idea was to charter it to France and then sink the boat. But I have mellowed, since.
Forgive my rage, but this is my country too!
Posted by: cgh at August 28, 2011 5:48 PM
Glad to see that you acknowledge that France needed a dictator to stop the bloodshed after the Reign of Terror.
French used to the the language of international diplomacy.
The only thing the Revolution contributed to the history of mankind has been a blueprint and inspiration for a long line of totalitarian dictators.
Therefore, France went from being a world leader to …. what?
Perhaps your ignorance of historical detail of the French Revolution prompted you to make your sweeping generalization.
In a way, Quebec imitates its big brother, still searching for relevance and affirmation of past glories when there is none to be had from today’s generations.
Stupid enough for you?
At the very least, irrelevant.
SYF: france was very relevant in WW1 – it was the blood of millions of frenchmen that played a mjor role in beating the hun. At the start of WW2 a morally weakened france got stomped by the nazis – not for lck of investment in its military. Since 1940 france has been a much weaker player in world affairs, but their fall was no more precipitous than the UK, Japan or Germany.
In the future, everyone will be their own political party.
I agree that Mr. Johnson has been very put of touch for some time (decades in fact) on the mood of the quebec political scene. Two examples from his column:
1. Yes there has been a fragmentation of the political scene but none of three of the new parties that have been formed have disavowed separation as a viable option. And if you totalled up all of their support and include the BQ – a majority of quebecers are prepared to vote for one party or another that supports separation as an option.
2. The truth is that the federal govt has become far more powerful and power-weilding over the provinces since 1943. Their is now a supreme court – appointed by the PM that almost always rules infavour of the federal govt (quelle surprise!!) whereas before we had a british privy council that was very constructionist (to use the american term) in its interpretation of the BNA act and ruled far more often in favour of the provinces. On this score the separatists are clearly on the right side and MR johnson et al are not.
So, what we are seeing is a fractioning on the left caused by a weakening – a softening – but not desertion of the quebec as an independent nation dream. This is due in large part to the growing realization that Quebec is economically vulnerable – that it needs a generous ROc to enable it to live the lifestyle that it has become accustomed to.
The political dynamic will soon undergo massive change in just over four years when thirty new seats are added to the house and Quebec’s power to play a deciding role in the creation of a majority will be dramtically reduced. This adds more uncertainty to the financial security – the assurance that the cash inflow from the ROC – of the province. It will be interesting how the separatists will play upon those worries totheir advantage.
While I have to admit that I couldn’t care less about Quebec and their tribal myths and historical denials, it does seem as though the tribalist snake has lost it’s way. Franco talkers have lost their ability to blame everything on the English speakers that built that Province. The tribalism snake needs an enemy to be relevant, and now that English has been outlawed in Quebec and the British/English speaking history of that Province has been destroyed, distorted and denied, the tribal snake has turned on itself. Then again… who cares?
Decades of doing business in Quebec meant dealing with business people on both sides of the Separatism debate.
The anger generated frequently divided families; damaged businesses destroyed communities. Much of this not ever brought to the attention of people outside Quebec.
Recognizing all politicians will go toward the voting blocks, the most significant recent development in the Separation debate is the number of Ontario seats held by the CPP.
This in and of itself will the strengthen the increasing financial relationship with Western Canadaand diminish the ability of Quebec to swing the Separation club.
The realization of an elected senate will ultimately diminish the influence of the individual Premiers on the National Stage.This will also reduce the singularity of Quebec’s voting bias.
Whether the actions taken to date in allowing the Baby Boomers generation of Quebec to mature will not be truly understood as being successful or not will not known until most of them and most of ROC boomers are gone.
However the future course of Quebec, whether as a disgruntled, socialist Canadian Province or a separate Nation in a trade relationship with ROC, the long drawn out debate has, in my opinion, allowed the Ontario voter to move beyond the need to have Quebec “My Canada includes Quebec” thinking as a basis for voting.
There is a now recognition; Upper and Western Canada presently have a more similar culture than they have with both Quebec and the Eastern Provinces.
For this I am pleased; the increasing maturity of the voters recognizing the future lies in having pride in self reliance, not some tribal cultural base of language or regional entitlement means there will be a strong Canada in the future. Cheers;
The islands of Saint-Pierre and Miquelon are the last remnant of French colonialism and a geo-political anachronism. A good start would be to occupy them and plant the Canadian flag to end the plunder of our territorial waters by a foreign power.
Paul – the frech only get a small sliver of fishing grounds out of the 200 mile limit. No matter how hard they plunder their own area their impact is minimal. And the cdn fishery is hardly blameless in the management of stocks…
If the separatists want to go, then let them go. Let them go to France so they can see how irrelevant they are to the continental French. Quebec, on the other hand, stays. If it is a “distinct society” then so is Ontario, BC and New Brunswick. Hell, name a place in Canada and it is distinct. France is no longer a world power and French is no longer the language of commerce. It’s how the world has changed and it’s high time these people trapped in the seventeenth century saw it.
Yes Gord Tulk … in WWI the French did die by the thousands ….. where we went wrong was going to war FOR them.
Just imagine … that we had told the Euros to go to hell instead of sending our men and boys to die for them.
IMO … much of the shit that evolved in the 20th century could have been avoided by leaving Kaiser Bill the whole shebang.
OMMAG – I do agree – would have probably prevented WWII too.
The sooner Quebec leaves the better off the ROC will be,we don t need them,the last election proved that Canada can have a majority government without Quebec.They can go whine to France and see how that works for them,with a little luck the could become as progressive and prosperous as St.Pierre and Miqelon.Quebec is a liability Canada does not need anymore,if it ever did.
Quebec separating is so 90’s. Let’s stop pretending this is for real anymore.
SYF, the number one rule when you are a total idiot is to stop digging deeper. Your 7:32 post just illustrates this.
Just a few things to mention: law reform and land reform, universal franchise, civil rights, the end of aristocratic privilege, universal education, the establishment of constitutionality as the basis of government. I could go on, but France spread all of these things to all of the rest of Europe. Because of France, serfdom was dead in Russia within a generation.
To fight Napoleon, the other nations of Europe had to modernize and reform not just their armies but their societies, as confirmed by the subsequent wave of revolutions which swept through in 1830 and 1848.
In short, SYF, you’re a slogan-spouting jingoistic moron, serving as a perfect illustration of why lefties call the right wing knuckle-draggers.
Yes let Quebec go!
No more equalization payments, also no alimony for the divorce!
First shut in welfare programs for the non-disabled peoples in the western provinces & ban Islam before the separation – They will all flock to Quebec who will gladly take them in.
Last – Build an Israeli style fence around it and fortify the perimeter like the 38th parallel in Korea – and then everyone’s happy and will get along just fine.
Posted by: cgh at August 29, 2011 5:05 AM
Yep, those 600,000 innocent lives during the Reign of Terror in the name of social justice meant nothing.
Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette.
Sure worked out well for Russia, too.
Maybe, oh, 10 million innocent deaths, mainly those who did not agree with the despots who seized power.
Yep, the French Revolution was JUST LIKE the American Revolution (10,000 combat deaths).
Speaking of ignorant knuckle-draggers ….
And, what heroes Mao, Castro and Pol Pot were, too.
They wiped out the oppressor ruling class, too … along with millions upon millions of their own citizens.
Yep, the French Revolution, based on taking power through violent means against their own citizens, is an example we should all follow.
The oppressed, seeking social justice, would not forgive you if you turned your back on them.
One thing I will grant you, though.
The British, and therefore by extention its US colonly, had a 600-year head start on civility.
That’s because the Magna Carta signed in 1215 relegated the monarchy to a valuable symbolic role.
That’s one advantage the rest of those violent revolutions were unable to handle wisely.
If you really love Canada, and if you are truly concerned for our childrens’ and grandchildrens’ futures,you should make a political donation to whatever party is most likely to pull la belle province out of this federation.
No one in his right mind would follow the example of the French Revolution today, but things were a bit different 150 years ago. France became very much more influential with the Revolution, and of course went on to conquer a much more substantial overseas empire. That’s no reason to like them, of course, and I understand setters doesn’t, but we should be realistic.
Since Quebec isn’t going to separate, there’s a lovely quality of fantasy to all talk of how they might do it. No need to be in any way realistic. But realistically, should the French Canadians decide they want to be independent, that in itself will render all of central and southern Quebec independent, since nobody else lives there. As to how much of Montreal and western and northern Quebec they can carry with them, that will depend entirely on how many French Canadians there are on the ground there, and how persuasive (or heavily armed, same thing) they can prove themselves to be. Legal rights become meaningless since by declaring independence they tear up the laws and write new ones, which in turn are void unless enforced.
It’s hard to imagine that there would be enough Frenchmen in Ungava to carry that country if the locals really didn’t want to go; but of course it’s impossible to imagine that any of it would ever happen.
Quebec people generally go towards anything they consider benefits Quebec..and will do so suddenly, as witnessed in May’s election results. They find themselves unable to deal with issues foreign to them. An example would be when they realized the rest of Canada doesn’t consider them special.
The sooner we can show these Quebequios parasites the door the better off our country will be.
PWC, I agree. Quebecers, en masse, vote for what they believe benefits Quebec. For 35 years they have elected Separatists, which has allowed Quebec to gain great concessions and $ from the ROC. The separatist model is no longer working because the ROC (thanks to Harper) no longer caters to Quebec. The Liberals, for 40 years, have trumpeted the threat of Quebec separation for their own political power, while risking the country.
Harper’s steady hand (some say luck) is causing a realignment of Canada politically, which will be felt for decades.
La belle provence, Canada’s very own disconnected-from-reality Greece.
Bon voyage, παράσιτα!
An even bigger realignment will come when House of Commons seats will be redistributed to more accurately reflect representation by population.
That’s when you’ll hear even more whining about how unfairly they’re being treated by the rest of Canada.
Seems to me the fragmentation of Quebec politics is the positionng of various mobs to see who can scream the loudest about their own unwillingless to replenish their populations.
As a Quebecer, I thank you for those kind thoughts.
W Johnson has no concept of QC today (he really never did).
The fragmentationn is a result of the fact that most Quebecers realize that they are now, for all intents and purposes, independent. Come here and see – the federal presence is invisible.
This is the reason for the swing to NDP (nothing to do with wacky jacky).
Quebec does its own thing and gets billions from ROC. Why change? Better to use the system and try to elect socialists who won’t rock the boat.
For ROC, it was a good thing that a majority federal government (regardless of party), was elected without owing anything to QC.
ROC can live without QC, but QC cannot live (at present standards) without ROC.
I still feel bad they never voted for seperating in one of the two votes.. Canada,s own broken loadstone. Quebec.
The Forthcoming Quebec Spring? We can hope.
Is that the spring were they sit around sipping maple syrup, and chirp send old money, new money all gone. That will never change, they may change their pitch men but the message is always you owe me because I am French, send me money fifi and poo poo…..
Ever notice how France and the french became internationally irrelevant after the Revolution?
And what’s the latest with the “Poor me! Poor us and We’re so humiliated” Quebecers? Now they are bellyaching because there aren’t enough French Canadian defencemen in the NHL!!
It seems every aspect of what goes on in Canada is viewed by Quebecers as being of no concern unless they can selfishly gain something from it. I suppose it’s difficult to blame them because after generations of whining about anything and everything they are invariably rewarded with generous pandering from ROC.
I fervently hope this pandering, bowing and scraping to the professional whiners and criers of Quebec has come to an end with the arrival of the new and energetic West with its growing populations and hardened attitude toward the corrupt political shysters of Quebec and their “Me, Me, Me!” attitude. I just want them to “Go, Go, Go!” We’ve had enough.
The ROC of Canada should hold a referendum asking whether we want to keep Quebec or let it go. I think we’d vote to let it go. Many of us are tired of the whining, the bitching and the greed. It’s time for Quebecers to grow up and become responsible members of the country or piss off.
Next Quebec referendum, the rest of Canada gets to vote.
If Quebec ever became separate it would be an enormous fiscal, linguistic and cultural shock.
First – Canada as a nation would drop its ‘faux bilingualism’. This would be an enormous financial savings to Canada. How would Quebec, which already defines itself as unilingual, fare?
Linguistically. Quebec, as isolate within a North America that is anglophone, would be obliged to become bilingual. It has cocooned itself from this reality by the irresponsible Trudeau Charter, which has nothing to do with rights, and indeed, denigrates individual to group rights – but is a policy focused on inserting bilingualism within Canada. This bilingualism has effectively protected Quebec from having to deal with the ROC and the US – in English.
With this protective wall gone…Quebec would have to wake up to reality – and acknowledge that it MUST communicate in English. I think this would be as much of a shock, if not more, than the economic shock.
The preferential treatment of Quebec companies, of head offices based in Quebec, of ‘dairy subsidies’ and so on – gone. Quebec would have to operate in a free, competitive market economy – and it’s not used to that. It’s not impossible but it would take time.
Second, of course, we are aware of the debt problem and its share of the national debt. Knowing Quebec, it would try for ‘forgiveness’ or some similar tactic. And, there’s the land problem; the native lands are under federal not provincial jurisdiction. …these aren’t unsolvable but they are not easy problems.
Then, there’s Quebec’s socialism which has been supported by massive federal grants and ‘preference’ locations. That is, hordes of Quebec intelligentsia are employed by the federal govt, with offices in, not merely Hull but in Montreal. Gone. Vanished. Unemployed.
And – there are a lot of ‘head offices’ graciously ‘given’ to Quebec by companies ..Gone. Vanished. Unemployed.
Then, there’s communication – Would Quebec decide to set up tariffs for movement through Quebec to the Maritimes? Wouldn’t work.
I really think that the biggest shock would be linguistic. The Charter has isolated Quebec from linguistic and societal reality – for that Charter is really ‘all about Quebec’ and this cocoon would be gone.
The recalculation of House of Commons seats is being vigorously rejected by Quebec; they are insisting that they get MORE seats than their population allows…because they are self-defining that their ‘role’ in Canada is ‘more important’ than population. Hmmm.
From my perspective Ontario and Quebec have a symbiotic existence. If Quebec goes Ontario loses its primary place in confederation. As it is Ontario is well on its way to losing that status anyways but understanding how Ontario fighting Quebec has served to keep the realms in line is important in understanding ‘political Canada’.
Quebec has lost relevance in the past two decades. The general mood in western Canada is, shape up or ship out. We don’t really care which it is, either.
The shape of a country on the map is no longer the issue it was before the internet age. I have to admit, I would prefer that they left, found their own way, and left us to find our own way.
The problem is that in Ontario, there are too many who are willing to put up with sulky, high-maintenance Quebec. Was the sex that good?
ET
you are aware that N America is comprized of 5 sovereign nations, France being one of those:-))))
actually I read an imteresting article some years ago that defined the bounderies that Quebec entered Canada with, and that ROC could dictate that they return to those bounderies if they separate, as, they “recieved” the additional land as part of the agreement to become part of Canada. It would be interesting to watch a separation play out, aside from the whining and moaning done by the frenckies
This nation is a divided nation because of the reality of a province that refuses to share – a province that takes and never contributes. The ROC would, as ET says, be better off without the albatross. Quebec has become a non entity in most of our lives because thinking of it makes us angry and ruins our day. The ROC will pressure the Feds to end the subsidization of the ungrateful whining gov’ts and the people in a province that we consider foreign. It is foreign because the Quebec society has made it so – an English speaking Westerner is not welcome in Quebec, why would we ever go there when there are so many other nice places to visit where we are welcome; Quebecers come to the west though, and they demand and get concessions – maybe it is time for us, in the west, to stop being used as a Quebec doormat.
I like others would vote to set Quebec ‘free’ to pursue it’s own destiny. The separation need not be nasty – the Czech Republic managed to have an friendly ‘divorce’, so can Canada. We would all be better off, IMO.
“… Ever notice how France and the french became internationally irrelevant after the Revolution?”
Actually, no, I hadn’t. Napoleon was seriously irrelevant, I guess you’d say. And the blood and treasure England poured into containing France – irrelevant, I guess you’d say.
France, after 1812, was a spent force – but irrelevant ..? Definitely NOT. Perhaps you’d say that Hitler and the Germans were irrelevant, too. Do you want to go there..?
“Next Quebec referendum, the rest of Canada gets to vote.”
Hear, hear !!!!
It can’t come too soon.
Farkin’ parasites and entitlement piglets.
It’s pretty clear that Quebec will never separate. They really aren’t interested. Our friend jlc has it more or less right. There’s nothing Quebec wants to do that requires sovereignty.
Of course it wasn’t federal bilingualism that mattered, it was Bill 101. All that concerned Quebeckers was not having to speak English. When they got that they realized they were happy.
We’d be much better off getting rid of Quebec, but I don’t see that happening either. People basically want things to be same as they were yesterday. No change. Not an unreasonable position, considering the changes imposed on us over the last century and how badly they tended to turn out.
Cut off federal transfer payments to Quebec until it is a signatory of the constitution. They should be able to give the ROC the finger OR get paid, not both.
Michael St. Paul’s said it all. Set you free’s comment at 3:16 is just about the stupidest comment that has ever appeared on this site.
Gym, you are quite right. Quebec does not have sovereignty over the District of Ungava, and it would revert to Canada upon separation. If Quebec tried to retain it, the Northern Cree would resist, quite possibly violently.
That’s why Jacques Parizeau tried to take some preliminary steps to creating a Quebec national armed force prior to the 1996 referendum. It’s also why starting in the 1960s, Rene Levesque, starting with his post as Energy Minister in the Lesage government pursued conquest by flooding in building as much electric generation and transmission infrastructure as possible all over northern Quebec.
But on the main question, Johnston is at least partly right. Quebec’s political history is riddled with illusions and mythmaking. The question is why is it happening now. The short answer is likely that for the first time since Confederation, Quebec has no meaningful role in guiding the federal government, and the two separatist parties, BQ and PQ, have no answer to this conundrum. Which is why both of them are falling apart.
I wonder if Eastern Quebec will separate from the rest of Quebec?
Peter O’Donnell at 4:20pm
Yes, yes indeed…the sex was good! But after spending 12 years working in la Belle Province, not that good. I couldn’t wait to leave.
it’s all summed up in their license plate ‘Je me Souviens’ – but what exactly are they remembering?
I’d bet that any politician in Quebec who decided to change the license plate to something about the future would do well.
Step one cut equalization payments. The only reason they qualify is because of their socialist spending.
Then give them the option, 1.join Canada or 2. pay your bills, take what you came with and get out.
I prefer the second option.
‘Farkin’ parasites and entitlement piglets.’ North of 60 – if you live N. of 60, you qualify as another ‘parasite entitlement piglet’ – millions are poured into the N. and shoveled out to pals of he lefty governments and gument employees in the geographical areas N. of 60.
I can’t see a problem with Quebec that can’t be solved by a massive tax cut. No transfer payments, no problem.
Quebec, like the ROC, suffers from too much -government-. Remove that and the realities of the market will make themselves felt. People will rise to the challenge, with great success.
There’s probably a big opportunity for French language and Quebec culture in mass media alone, absent government regulation and handouts. American culture has been done to death, they need new material.
Ah, the spirit of Quebec….. In the family that is Canada, Quebec is the baby brother/sister that whines on those long family trips. Thus getting the window seat, first dibs on those snacks Mom made, choice of the radio station we all have to listen to and as much elbow room as he/she desired. sticking their tounge out at us, while our Mom & Dad weren’t looking.
*Deep down we wanted to slap our spoiled rotten sibling’s back of the head, knowing the consequences would be severe….but worth it!
Well I love my country, swore to defend it and it’s entirity. It’s about time we grab our little sibling, put ’em against the wall & say,”enough”.
Now I had two solutions for this issue, one more civilized than it’s original concept. So please allow me to vent….my quarter’s worth.
This land all of it IS Canada, if you don’t like it, by a buss ticket & go. The Canadian Army should sweep through the Province of Quebec and sort out the seperatists, those no longer willing to be Canadian will be escorted on a bus, with 2 suitcases full of their belongings and driven to a port, where a big cargo ship will be awaiting them. The ship will be sent to St. Pierre & Micheloin Islands, where they will be dropped off as displaced persons. YOU NO LONGER WISH TO BE CANADIAN, THEN YOU WONT BE. you are now a refugee for France, their burdon, not ours! They can put their hands out and beg for francs / euros & France can thank de Gaulle for that…”Viva quebec Libre’….. Jerk, if it wasn’t for us. You would have been dead long ago, or spouting German!
Any party spouting seperation is a domestic terrorist and should be dealt with quick & harshly.
* if you think that solution was harsh, my original idea was to charter it to France and then sink the boat. But I have mellowed, since.
Forgive my rage, but this is my country too!
Posted by: cgh at August 28, 2011 5:48 PM
Glad to see that you acknowledge that France needed a dictator to stop the bloodshed after the Reign of Terror.
French used to the the language of international diplomacy.
The only thing the Revolution contributed to the history of mankind has been a blueprint and inspiration for a long line of totalitarian dictators.
Therefore, France went from being a world leader to …. what?
Perhaps your ignorance of historical detail of the French Revolution prompted you to make your sweeping generalization.
In a way, Quebec imitates its big brother, still searching for relevance and affirmation of past glories when there is none to be had from today’s generations.
Stupid enough for you?
At the very least, irrelevant.
SYF: france was very relevant in WW1 – it was the blood of millions of frenchmen that played a mjor role in beating the hun. At the start of WW2 a morally weakened france got stomped by the nazis – not for lck of investment in its military. Since 1940 france has been a much weaker player in world affairs, but their fall was no more precipitous than the UK, Japan or Germany.
In the future, everyone will be their own political party.
I agree that Mr. Johnson has been very put of touch for some time (decades in fact) on the mood of the quebec political scene. Two examples from his column:
1. Yes there has been a fragmentation of the political scene but none of three of the new parties that have been formed have disavowed separation as a viable option. And if you totalled up all of their support and include the BQ – a majority of quebecers are prepared to vote for one party or another that supports separation as an option.
2. The truth is that the federal govt has become far more powerful and power-weilding over the provinces since 1943. Their is now a supreme court – appointed by the PM that almost always rules infavour of the federal govt (quelle surprise!!) whereas before we had a british privy council that was very constructionist (to use the american term) in its interpretation of the BNA act and ruled far more often in favour of the provinces. On this score the separatists are clearly on the right side and MR johnson et al are not.
So, what we are seeing is a fractioning on the left caused by a weakening – a softening – but not desertion of the quebec as an independent nation dream. This is due in large part to the growing realization that Quebec is economically vulnerable – that it needs a generous ROc to enable it to live the lifestyle that it has become accustomed to.
The political dynamic will soon undergo massive change in just over four years when thirty new seats are added to the house and Quebec’s power to play a deciding role in the creation of a majority will be dramtically reduced. This adds more uncertainty to the financial security – the assurance that the cash inflow from the ROC – of the province. It will be interesting how the separatists will play upon those worries totheir advantage.
While I have to admit that I couldn’t care less about Quebec and their tribal myths and historical denials, it does seem as though the tribalist snake has lost it’s way. Franco talkers have lost their ability to blame everything on the English speakers that built that Province. The tribalism snake needs an enemy to be relevant, and now that English has been outlawed in Quebec and the British/English speaking history of that Province has been destroyed, distorted and denied, the tribal snake has turned on itself. Then again… who cares?
Decades of doing business in Quebec meant dealing with business people on both sides of the Separatism debate.
The anger generated frequently divided families; damaged businesses destroyed communities. Much of this not ever brought to the attention of people outside Quebec.
Recognizing all politicians will go toward the voting blocks, the most significant recent development in the Separation debate is the number of Ontario seats held by the CPP.
This in and of itself will the strengthen the increasing financial relationship with Western Canadaand diminish the ability of Quebec to swing the Separation club.
The realization of an elected senate will ultimately diminish the influence of the individual Premiers on the National Stage.This will also reduce the singularity of Quebec’s voting bias.
Whether the actions taken to date in allowing the Baby Boomers generation of Quebec to mature will not be truly understood as being successful or not will not known until most of them and most of ROC boomers are gone.
However the future course of Quebec, whether as a disgruntled, socialist Canadian Province or a separate Nation in a trade relationship with ROC, the long drawn out debate has, in my opinion, allowed the Ontario voter to move beyond the need to have Quebec “My Canada includes Quebec” thinking as a basis for voting.
There is a now recognition; Upper and Western Canada presently have a more similar culture than they have with both Quebec and the Eastern Provinces.
For this I am pleased; the increasing maturity of the voters recognizing the future lies in having pride in self reliance, not some tribal cultural base of language or regional entitlement means there will be a strong Canada in the future. Cheers;
The islands of Saint-Pierre and Miquelon are the last remnant of French colonialism and a geo-political anachronism. A good start would be to occupy them and plant the Canadian flag to end the plunder of our territorial waters by a foreign power.
Paul – the frech only get a small sliver of fishing grounds out of the 200 mile limit. No matter how hard they plunder their own area their impact is minimal. And the cdn fishery is hardly blameless in the management of stocks…
If the separatists want to go, then let them go. Let them go to France so they can see how irrelevant they are to the continental French. Quebec, on the other hand, stays. If it is a “distinct society” then so is Ontario, BC and New Brunswick. Hell, name a place in Canada and it is distinct. France is no longer a world power and French is no longer the language of commerce. It’s how the world has changed and it’s high time these people trapped in the seventeenth century saw it.
Yes Gord Tulk … in WWI the French did die by the thousands ….. where we went wrong was going to war FOR them.
Just imagine … that we had told the Euros to go to hell instead of sending our men and boys to die for them.
IMO … much of the shit that evolved in the 20th century could have been avoided by leaving Kaiser Bill the whole shebang.
OMMAG – I do agree – would have probably prevented WWII too.
The sooner Quebec leaves the better off the ROC will be,we don t need them,the last election proved that Canada can have a majority government without Quebec.They can go whine to France and see how that works for them,with a little luck the could become as progressive and prosperous as St.Pierre and Miqelon.Quebec is a liability Canada does not need anymore,if it ever did.
Quebec separating is so 90’s. Let’s stop pretending this is for real anymore.
SYF, the number one rule when you are a total idiot is to stop digging deeper. Your 7:32 post just illustrates this.
Just a few things to mention: law reform and land reform, universal franchise, civil rights, the end of aristocratic privilege, universal education, the establishment of constitutionality as the basis of government. I could go on, but France spread all of these things to all of the rest of Europe. Because of France, serfdom was dead in Russia within a generation.
To fight Napoleon, the other nations of Europe had to modernize and reform not just their armies but their societies, as confirmed by the subsequent wave of revolutions which swept through in 1830 and 1848.
In short, SYF, you’re a slogan-spouting jingoistic moron, serving as a perfect illustration of why lefties call the right wing knuckle-draggers.
Yes let Quebec go!
No more equalization payments, also no alimony for the divorce!
First shut in welfare programs for the non-disabled peoples in the western provinces & ban Islam before the separation – They will all flock to Quebec who will gladly take them in.
Last – Build an Israeli style fence around it and fortify the perimeter like the 38th parallel in Korea – and then everyone’s happy and will get along just fine.
Posted by: cgh at August 29, 2011 5:05 AM
Yep, those 600,000 innocent lives during the Reign of Terror in the name of social justice meant nothing.
Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette.
Sure worked out well for Russia, too.
Maybe, oh, 10 million innocent deaths, mainly those who did not agree with the despots who seized power.
Yep, the French Revolution was JUST LIKE the American Revolution (10,000 combat deaths).
Speaking of ignorant knuckle-draggers ….
And, what heroes Mao, Castro and Pol Pot were, too.
They wiped out the oppressor ruling class, too … along with millions upon millions of their own citizens.
Yep, the French Revolution, based on taking power through violent means against their own citizens, is an example we should all follow.
The oppressed, seeking social justice, would not forgive you if you turned your back on them.
One thing I will grant you, though.
The British, and therefore by extention its US colonly, had a 600-year head start on civility.
That’s because the Magna Carta signed in 1215 relegated the monarchy to a valuable symbolic role.
That’s one advantage the rest of those violent revolutions were unable to handle wisely.
If you really love Canada, and if you are truly concerned for our childrens’ and grandchildrens’ futures,you should make a political donation to whatever party is most likely to pull la belle province out of this federation.
No one in his right mind would follow the example of the French Revolution today, but things were a bit different 150 years ago. France became very much more influential with the Revolution, and of course went on to conquer a much more substantial overseas empire. That’s no reason to like them, of course, and I understand setters doesn’t, but we should be realistic.
Since Quebec isn’t going to separate, there’s a lovely quality of fantasy to all talk of how they might do it. No need to be in any way realistic. But realistically, should the French Canadians decide they want to be independent, that in itself will render all of central and southern Quebec independent, since nobody else lives there. As to how much of Montreal and western and northern Quebec they can carry with them, that will depend entirely on how many French Canadians there are on the ground there, and how persuasive (or heavily armed, same thing) they can prove themselves to be. Legal rights become meaningless since by declaring independence they tear up the laws and write new ones, which in turn are void unless enforced.
It’s hard to imagine that there would be enough Frenchmen in Ungava to carry that country if the locals really didn’t want to go; but of course it’s impossible to imagine that any of it would ever happen.