Remember the now infamous Nathan Kotylak? He issued a public apology today:
Open Questions:
1) Do you believe he’s sincere?
2) Do you sense that him coming forward like this was his own idea?
3) Does this change your views on what punishment he should face?
4) If your answer to #3 is ‘Yes’, what do you think would be a fair punishment for him?
Dear Deanna Barry, (waterpolo.ca)
These are difficult days for your organization, no doubt the recent publicity has already damaged the reputation of this terrific sport. I have watched competitions on more than one occasion at the Talisman Centre here in Calgary, and played on an intramural level many years ago.
What happened in Vancouver was completely unacceptable, the thought that more than one elite athlete from a privileged community of students was so involved is shocking.
Your responsibility, as members of a national organization which represents Canada around the world, is to protect the reputation of the sport, it’s players, and all Canadians. I don’t have to detail here your code of conduct from page 38 of your Board Policies, suffice to say that Nathan Kotylk has contravened most of them with his actions last week in Vancouver.
Allowing Nathan Kotylk to continue playing will further tarnish the sport of water polo, worse still, it will set the example for other young athletes that this type of behavior can be conducted without consequence. Watching his public display of remorse and the reading of his prepared statement of guilt has done nothing to lessen my resolution in this matter.
I hope that your organization takes swift and corrective action in this matter. Censuring Nathan Kotylk, suspending him from play for at least two years, removing his name from the roster for Olympic tryouts, and encouraging him the seek counselling and make restitution for the crimes he’s committed would be an appropriate beginning.
The fans, other athletes and their parents, your many sponsors, provincial partners, Sport Canada and Canadians are no doubt watching to see what your actions in this matter will be.
Sincerely,
ET to borrow an American legal term, you are “assuming facts not in evidence”. Like everyone else commenting on this topic you have no way of knowing the arsonist’s motives. All we know is that he set a cop car on fire. Was it a premeditated act, a crime of opportunity or a crime of passion (carried away in the moment)? We don’t know nor can we ever know with any degree of certainty.
Your typical jailhouse remorse. The repentance of those who get caught.
He does have a good lawyer though.
Hmmm. “I waived my right as a YO.” Sounds like he’s either well versed in the process of legal prosecution, or **maybe** he has received some solid legal counsel.
I don’t care much for apologies, unless it’s coming from a 5 year old child who really didnt know any better. I’ll accept that, but not something from a person older than 15.
Take your lumps, accept a real punishment (and dont waste the courts time), and you’re square with me.
Punishment? Not sure if it was arson or attempted arson. Or what the penalty for either is. I guess we dont throw you in jail for being a crybaby.
I am not a fan of community service. Except maybe if its helping that nurse in the ER (after the next riot).
One neat thing. The need to maintain a good reputation seems more important than ever in the age of the internet.
What should be a simple cut and dried issued gets complicated real fast.
It’s easy to throw the book at him, yet, what ET says has as much relevance as those that want to put him in the stocks and cane him, so what do we do?
As the father of a book smart, but ‘life dumb’ 17 year old, I see the juxtaposition and seemingly conflicting messages the teens convey and put themselves into. They do not plan well, do not consider ramifications of their actions, sometimes not at all, other than through the rose coloured glasses they wear.
I believe his apology is sincere, but I also believe he regrets getting caught too, no doubt one can feel both emotions. Should he have known better? Of course! Did he get caught up in the mob mentality? You bet!
Was he drunk? Pretty likely as with the rest of the mob, no excuse, but a factor.
Now, will he pay more than some yobbo from East Van, or NorDehli (North Delta)? Yes, this wellheeled kid will pay a far stiffer price than some welfare/working class kid that might get caught. Maybe that’s the price one pays for the expectations of those from the upper crust of our society. To second the comments from others here, coming from that class is no guarantee of good behaviour, I’ve known some pretty nasty disrespectful snots who came from very privileged households, pulling all kinds of low end crime stuff, in a very distant, past lifetime.
It just shows that criminal behaviour can come from any walk of life, from any income bracket.
But let’s not forget the big picture, Mr Kotalyk also should be given the other chance no one mentions, but will take time to earn.
REDEMPTION. That’s what makes our society good, the allowance, and possibility to achieve it. But he will have to pay the price first, and I agree, a place like Dorchester or Wilkinson Rd will not help in this young man’s road to redemption.
How many people here think that if this guy were to be dealt with harshly that the next time something like this were to occur that he’d just mindlessly become one with the crowd again as opposed to walking away from it as quickly as he could.
Sorry ET but you’re spewing a bunch of psycho babble tripe. The threat of stiff punishment works in most cases. It sure kept me from joining with friends when they started hot wiring and stealing cars. Society and the police would have dealt with me harshly in those days as they did when my friends got caught, but nothing compared to what my father would have done when he got his hands on me.
It was that simple understanding that kept me from becoming “one” with the crowd.
His dad writes a nice speech. That’s probably why he lives in such a nice house.
I wonder what his “atonement” would be under Sharia Law? Would he then be so willing to accept it? Like most lefties, do they also support massive Muslim Immigration and Sharia Law as does EGAL and other extreme left organizations?
Makes the head spin, no?
This has been an interesting thread to which I’ll add two cents worth.
This kid doesn’t fit the profile that is forwarded by the “root cause” chorus vis a vis crime, rather, he seems to have lead a quite privileged life.
One could make the case that this makes his piss poor decision making all the more egregious.
Stepping forward in the face of incontrovertible evidence to provide an apology and waive YO status strikes me as a smart, preemptive legal move as much as an act of contrition.
Save the frickin tears, man up and suffer the consequences.
I am a strong believer in restorative justice and having made my own piss poor decisions, recognize the road to redemption can be long and arduous.
Assuming this kid has no prior record he does however deserve a chance. Some period of incarceration seems in order along with substantial financial restitution and community service.
I would also stipulate that the kid prove he earned the restitution money himself. No doting parents paying the tab.
Community service would include pertinent jobs like scrubbing off graffiti and volunteering at St. Pauls Hospital.
Of course university will be postponed for a few years, but consequences can be a bitch.
Provided he completes the terms of his redemption contract in good faith…a suspended sentence would be in order. Failing that…in with the sharks.
How about a sentencing circle in a swimming pool and some time teaching swimming to the underprivileged? Hmmph!
Seriously, why so much talk about his water polo? Maybe his lawyer can argue that he was trying to pull the rags out of the gas tank, or that the angle of the photos makes it deceptive.
For this young man the classic West Side Story line, “We’re depraved on account of we’re deprived” doesn’t work.
Maybe he should argue that “I’m depraved because I’m not deprived” and blame it all on Canadian society. Actually, there’s a small amount of truth to that argument.
Great discussion. Please stop with the class distinctions – spoiled kids come from all stations of society. ET – you are of course correct that the Mob mentality does overcome people. However, I’m grateful for the cowboy movies I watched as a kid – each and every one with the cliche lynch mob scene. As a result, I’ve always been sensitive to the loss of control that permeates some crowd situations (even at 17). If I can’t exert significant influence to reverse the situation, I at least know well enough to get the hell out of the area. For those that like to distinguish between premeditated violence (G20) and non-premediatated violence (Vancouver) then I should remind you about the gang rape of news reporter Lara Logan (http://tinyurl.com/5t24rrw) during the Arab Spring riots in Egypt that Brigitte Depape likes to champion. Bottom line we need to educate ourselves and our kids about these situations and we need to take personal responsibility for our actions.
I think that fact that he is sorry, is rich, is white, has lost his spot on the national water polo U18 team, nor the fact he says he didn’t plan it prior to the game, shouldn’t play into the fact he is an arsonist
Premeditation doesn’t need to be days, hours or even minutes prior. It just means there needs to be some forethought, I doubt someone on the U18 waterpolo team is a avid smoker so where do the match’s come from? Did he ask someone in the crowd? Did he pack them? Did they fall from the heavens?
He should be sent through the justice system, and I’d hope the crown would try to have him tried as an adult, if he’s the thoughtful and mature 17 he claims to be than the young offenders act need not apply because he’s a few weeks short of 18. He should be treated like all other arsonists, found guilty given a criminal record and a slap on the wrist from our piss poor justice system.
The city of Vancouver should then sure him for a portion of the damage plus policing and legal costs.
His punishment should be that one of the store owners who had his business trashed should have the right to go into Nathan’s room in his mom’s basement and smash all his CD’s, his flat screen TV, his expensive bong imported from Lebanon, his Wii, his computer games, DVD collection, etc., etc.
He probably stole most of his personal possessions anyway, illegally downloaded it, or got from a criminal fence on the black market.
Nathan is a stupid rich brat, it’s beyond obvious that he would never have turned himself in if he hadn’t been caught, 17 isn’t that young, and he did, um, set fire to a Police car, which is a pretty big deal, I’d say. His tears looked sincere to me, although I admit I skipped around on the tape (’cause I couldn’t be bothered); but he’s sincerely terrified that he’s wrecked his life, and that’ll make a guy cry.
Of course he was coached by a lawyer. Duh (as the kids say).
He should do many, many hours of community service. As a high-school athlete he would benefit from seeing just how much of a Big Tough Guy the cops think he is. He should be on probation. But kicked out of his chance for the Olympics, and his life destroyed? No. I’m just too nice.
The little bugger screws up one more time, though, and it’s curtains.
re. ET etc. – Although I do agree that a “mob mentality” can lead people to do things they wouldn’t do otherwise, I don’t think it equals “no premeditation”.
(p.s. I don’t get this “do I forgive him” stuff. As a Canadian I have an interest in law enforcement, sure, but he didn’t set fire to my car.)
As a Canadian I have an interest in law enforcement, sure, but he didn’t set fire to my car.
You aren’t a taxpayer?
–yes
–no
–no
–some jail time, long community service. As some posters have pointed out, his action was serious, and might have killed someone…different from throwing a rock through a window. I feel somewhat sorry for him, but he needs to do some time.
Black Mamba
It’s not about forgiveness, it’s about redemption. Given the chance the kid can redeem himself and possibly learn from his f-up. Redemption is within his control, forgiveness, not so much.
Drained Brain – I’m not using “forgive” in the outdated sense of “excuse a (literal) debt”. He destroyed public property and he owes money or the equivalent for that. Community Service and plenty of it (I mean years) – real stuff, not namby-pamby nothing phoney social-work). Prison would cost the taxpayer money, not vice versa.
“Forgive” in the sense that it’s being used on this thread seems to have a more penitential, emotional, almost religious sort of quality. My forgiveness or lack thereof comes into play when you damage me. I’m not collectivist enough to personalize everything that goes on in society.
As a follow-up to my earlier post – this video of Henry Fonda, as a young Abraham Lincoln talking down the Mob, should be required classroom discussion for every elementary/junior high school kid. http://tinyurl.com/3qmfobp
There is no excuse for participating in a riot if you understand what happens in large crowd situations (your very presence adds to the critical mass and fuels incitement). Perhaps we can take a little time from the Liberal school room agenda (like the celebration of an Arab Spring) to impart some of this cowboy wisdom.
@Black Mamba – Thanks. I inferred incorrectly that you were offering that hoary argument that crimes against government or “big corporations” don’t really count. I fully agree with your comment, if I have it right, that no one individual has the right to “forgive” this young man on behalf of society, nor does it make any sense to “forgive” somebody who hasn’t wronged you personally.
For another example, as a resident of the U.S. a long way from his now former Congressional district, who am I to forgive Anthony Weiner for skewering himself?
@Former Juvey – To Kill A Mockingbird was on the Grade 10 curriculum the last I looked a decade or so ago and there’s a pretty good mob scene in there too, with Atticus Finch holding the line against them.
Maybe this young man was off at water polo practice if and when this particular novel was taken up in his class.
Former Juvey – I should rent that one; I’ve never been a big one for Henry Fonda (and not just because of Jane) – but he does manage to look more like Lincoln than I would have thought likely. There’s surely a Jimmy Stewart scene that’s perfect for this, but I can’t find it. Mark Twain wrote repeatedly about mobs, really “lynch mobs”, as in the movie, and, as in the movie, without necesarily any racial connotation. But I do submit that gang-rape is a better analogy here. A “lynch” mob is a collective attempt, however despicable, cowardly and dishonest, to maintain order. A riot is a riot – pure chaos.
I’m having a really tough time following the “spontaneous” defense on this one. He went downtown with a spare t-shirt and a book of matches. Hmmm. Matches so that he could smoke? On the waterpolo team? Matches so the he could light up the camp stove to brew up a cup of tea? As opposed to say, buying it at the Starbucks? Spare t-shirt in case he got invited to stay over at a complete stranger’s place? Then, upon seeing the target of opportunity he had to 1. figure out how to release or break the gas cap cover, 2. unscrew the gas cap, 3. get the “spare” t-shirt out of his backpack, 4. stuff it into the gas filler line, 5. reach for the matches, 6. strike the matches and attempt repeatedly to light the precious t-shirt on fire, 7. throw lighted papers or whatever into the police car in an attempt to get it to catch fire — all in anticipation of a massive fire or, heaven forbid explosion, in the midst of a mob of drunken revellers! ET, how many burn victims have you had to sedate or anesthetize for their daily burn dressing changes???
My .02 worth:
1) He’s sincerely sorry he got caught.
2) Bwaaahahaha!
3) No.
4) He should face a lifetime ban from amateur sport and the Olympics program. Conduct unbecoming. He should buy the VPD not one, but two new cop cars, from money he earned himself, not Daddy’s money. One for restitution, the other for punishment. He should get a criminal record and all that it entails. If he keeps his nose clean, he should, in due course be given a pardon.
During his prepared statement and interview, Jason never said last name; why not?
He said others started it; he was an innocent bystander (with nothing but good intentions) who got caught up in the moment. Jason NEVER admitted trying to burn a police car. He NEVER admitted to any criminal actions. Taking responsibility for your actions means admitting what you did.
Every time he showed emotion both in his public statement and during the interview was when it affected him, his water polo opportunity, and his parents. No emotion whatsoever about how his actions affected others; no true remorse except about how everything potentially affected him.
To be a deterrent, justice must not only be done – it must be seen to be done. Otherwise there is no deterrence for others in society. If the punishment is a slap on the wrist, the next time there is a large group of rowdy people, the destruction will be worse. And people may die.
With that in mind he should lose his national water polo benefits completely; he should lose his water polo scholarship immediately and he should get time in jail to be served on weekends.
Then and only then will he, his friends and society learn the lesson that criminal actions have repercussions…
I’ll vote with the “mercy” crowd with regard to this issue. I don’t believe that Mr Kotylak did not think through his criminal act at the time of the event.
IMO, at his age and providing he has a clean record, I think the appropriate sentence would be 30 days in jail, 400 hours of community service and $20,000 of restitution payable within 5 years, providing I were a judge at his hearing. I’d require that the charges and his record be expunged after 6 years if all terms were complied with. Just my opinion.
Right you are Orlin.
That’s a far cry from some of the crackpots posting here who think he should be awarded a participation medal instead.
They theorize and they pontificate then they pontificate and then move on to more theorizing, them they hum and they ho and ho and hum.
Meanwhile, our whole society circles the toilet bowl.
Great thread!
ET, you wrote, “lookout – being a part of a mob doesn’t mean that all your actions are done ‘as one’. It means that your actions, as an individual, are outside of reason, outside of normal constraints, and fit into the emotional hysteria of the whole event as it is occurring.”
This was after I wrote, “ET, with respect, this young man was not just part of the mob. He stepped out of the crowd—to torch a police car, on camera. What he did . . . was an egregiously CRIMINAL act, the consequences of which, on the ground, could have been catastrophic. It was also a complete ‘F**k you’ to authority. And the cost of a police car to the community is considerable. If Nathan were only ‘vogueing’, he’d just be part of the mob. What he did went FAR—and hideously— beyond that.”
It seems, from what I’ve read here, that Nathan’s actions were premeditated: he came prepared to torch a police car—???—and tried multiple times to carry out that objective. His preparedness and subsequent actions do not suggest that he was, in fact, a mindless cog in the mob. Neither does the fact that close to 100 000 other members of “the mob” managed to restrain themselves from trying to torch a police cruiser.
I’ve never referenced Nathan’s privileged status. Of course, it should be irrelevant. However, that’s not the way things work in this “Deranged Dominion”. Most of the miscreants I’ve had the misfortune to deal with are from the opposite end of the social spectrum and are let off “because they don’t know any better” (sic) and, of course, their viz. min. credentials come into it: “We CAN’T seem to be coming down hard on a ___ kid,” is the ridiculous PC thinking.
Lady Justice wears a blindfold because justice is supposed to be meted out “without fear [of offending individuals from PC protected groups] or favour [kids like Nathan]”. Excuses for kids from either group has a lot to do with the downward trajectory of civil society.
In the words of Hamlet, sometimes one must “be cruel only to be kind”: letting our kids off the hook from their earliest age gives them an altogether skewed understanding of right, wrong, and justice. Poor Nathan and too many other young people: rather than learning what would have been a fairly simple lesson about consequences early on (as most kids in my generation learned, when real adults had no problem setting us straight), they’ve been duped by “adults”, who think they need to be “nice” all the time. With no understanding that consequences can, on occasion, be really unpleasant and serious, these young people act out ridiculous fantasies.
Do I feel happy about the thought of Nathan having to pay a high price for what he did? No. However, I’ll be even more unhappy if he gets off with a mere slap on the wrist.
“I don’t believe that Mr Kotylak did not think through his criminal act at the time of the event.”
Holy double negative Batman.
The only thing he didn’t think through was the consequences … and why should he? … he already has a mob out there trying to make sure they are minimal.
The lawyer, and his client, will pleased that the dupery worked.
“You can be the most upstanding citizen and in a spontaneous crowd, lose your self-identity and become One.”
I can see that happening in a true “mob” like the mob a crowd demonstrating against tyranny can quickly become, but not here. This was a crowd in a First World Country viewing a sporting event, not a group of Egyptians crying out for democracy.
There were 100,000 people in that crowd, only a couple of hundred took part in the vandalism. It wasn’t the emergence of a “mob”,it was hooliganism done under the cover of a big crowd where the perps thought they’d remain anonymous.They forgot about the ubiquitous cell phone camera.
I’ve been in riots,and crowd scenes demonstrating against the bitch-of-the-day ,and there are always a few thugs who want to take it further.
There is a segment of our young population who bear this big grudge against “the system”,whatever that means,and they come from all social classes.
This faction saw the opportunity to trash SOMETHING,and they took it. The rest stood by and watched,some obviously enjoyed watching,it’s like the News Hour but it’s not on the TV screen, it’s right there in front of you! You can become the center of any conversation at the pub for the next year by mentioning that you “were there”!
Is the kid sincere? I don’t know, maybe I should phone his lawyer and he can tell me if the kid’s sincere. Lawyers can detect sincerity like psychiatrists can spot a personality disorder.(sarcasm)
Will he do jail time? No, nor should he.Getting buggered in jail won’t help build his character. Restitution,community service,and blacklist him from obtaining any taxpayer funding for his education,or from ever applying for a government job.
Oh,and cancel his membership in the Young Liberals.
Don’t care he just deos not want to lose his water polo scholarship i say go to his house and burn it down and steal all of his stuff!!! he was caught and that is a fact !!!
the only reason he came forward was becasue someone recognised him from the photo’s.
mgk – no but probably should be.
Louis Riel is rolling in his grave.
He’s sorry he got caught, publicly.
No, it’s not his own idea. It’s the idea of a couple level-headed people around him grasping for anything that might salvage his reputation and a chance at wearing national colours. Namely, his parent(s).
No; the punishment should fit the crime. And he should be banned immediately from Canada’s junior water polo team.
I’m reading a whole lot of stuff here by alot of folks who could not thrown the first stone. What an amazing bunch you are!
I doubt that you would qualify to be part of a jury in any criminal case not to mention any case involving this rioting. After all you have to be fair and impartial.
I hope that should any of you ever need redemption you will be able to find it without having to rely on folks such as yourselves.
batb – “I don’t see any self-righteousness”. Seriously??
dmorris
Well said and I will take issue with the second last statement.
All jails are not experientally equal. Jail time is in order for this kid. He should have to suffer the indignity of a strip search as he enters remand.
He should be locked up, triple bunked, for 18-22 hours a day until he is placed in a minimum security correctional institution.
He should meet and mingle with the broad social strata of said institution and find his way in this society.
He should strive not to have to do his time in PC.
Sending him to the pen would just be mean.
dmorris – ah, so a ‘true mob’ is defined only as one that is demonstrating against tyranny; that is ‘crying out for democracy’. Whew. No, that’s not a mob but a demonstration with a clear predetermined and rational agenda.
A mob is by definition irrational and emotional. It can be predetermined or spontaneous. And I don’t see any evidence for your conclusion that it wasn’t a ‘mob’ activity -but ‘hooliganism’ without thinking of the camera.
The fact that many people didn’t take part does not mean that those who did – were not part of the mob psyche.
paul in calgary – well, now, your suggestion that ‘we’ (?) should go and burn down his house and ‘steal all his stuff’..ah, that’s a rational, disciplined answer, isn’t it.
Dr D – is there evidence that he went with a spare t-shirt and a book of matches? Was the riot and car burning preplanned…even if the home team won?
blame crash – could you tell us who is suggesting awarding a ‘participation medal’?
I’ve outlined my view of a ‘just punishment’ and it certainly does NOT include jail time, nor being barred from scholarships etc. It involves direct restitution and work. Period.
I admit to being astonished by the vitriol directed by so many here against the wealthy; it’s astonishing to read this on a conservative blog.
ET
With all due respect, you make a valid point about some vitriol here, yet in many respects you are totally out of your element.
This kid needs to see that the hard side of life is just that. Hard.
Criminal does as criminal is.
a different bob: “After all you have to be fair and impartial.”
You mean like this:
ET: “I’ve outlined my view of a ‘just punishment’ and it certainly does NOT include jail time, nor being barred from scholarships etc. It involves direct restitution and work. Period.”
Why not just a strongly worded letter?
Words can be hurtful.
To answer the questions:
1) It might be sincere, but until he admits in writing to all of his activities that evening and starts naming names, then it is meaningless.
2) No…as already reported.
3) No, I still do not have the full scope of his crimes so I don’t know if the apology makes any difference.
If he was fully remorseful, he would have fully admit his actions and take his punishment like an adult.
OK ET, you’ve got me there. It’s possible he rounded up the matches and the spare t-shirt from bystanders or from a store that had had its windows smashed. If anything, that would indicate even greater culpability and pre-meditation. Would it not?
syncrodox: “Words can be hurtful.”
I suppose so. Well, we have all heard of the story about a kid caught smoking … then someone making him smoke cigars until he got sick.
How about making him start cop cars on fire until he gets sick?
Or until we run out of cop cars…because if it saves one life…
1) Do you believe he’s sincere?
I don’t care.
2) Do you sense that him coming forward like this was his own idea?
Still don’t care.
3) Does this change your views on what punishment he should face?
Not even slightly.
4) If your answer to #3 is ‘Yes’, what do you think would be a fair punishment for him?
He should pony up for a new cop car with all the trimmings after he does his PRISON TIME for vandalism and rioting. That would be fair. Might even stop him and his idiot friends doing it again next time they get drunk.
My friends, let us remember that restitution is not punishment. Jail is punishment, restitution is taking responsibility for your actions and fixing what you broke.
Now imagine breaking something you can’t fix. Like somebody’s head. Or spine.
Our society doesn’t give a damn about morality or responsibility, and Vancouver’s little fun fair is the result. Maybe we should all think about that a little bit.
Like ET, I too get uncomfortable when conservatives apparently engage in the politics of envy.
HOWEVER:
ET, I think you’ve misinterpreted those many comments which contain references to “rich parents” and the “spoilt rich kid”.
It’s not the wealth that these commenters are excoriating but the pass that persons of wealth and privilege (and connectvity) routinely get in our “justice system”.
I use the phrase “justice system” to denote something only remotely resembling justice.
Me No Dhimmi
Surely your not suggesting that justice is applied unevenly?
syncro – certainly not. And don’t call him Shirley.
Maybe I’m a big meanie but I am so tired of infantilising these thugs. They are not children could not have possibly known better. What we saw in the riot was a breakdown of personal and social responsibility. I’m sure it stems from parents NEVER disciplining their kids. What was once “he is only seven” is now “he is only seventeen”. If the bratty behaviour of this affluent punk wasn’t cute then, it sure as hell isn’t cute now. He must BE sorry, not feel it. Remove daddy’s money and influence and let him stew in jail for a while. Let him get to the stage where his crime becomes so personally distasteful to him that he is humiliated when he thinks about it. If we forgive him because he is a boy of seventeen, I guarantee you in a year, he won’t feel bad at all. Make him really rot and in a year you’ll see someone who is truly contrite.
Black Mamba
I would never call Me No Dhimmi Shirley…Susan or Samantha but never Shirley.
Osumashi Kinyobe
Best thing that kid could do is time.