Remember the now infamous Nathan Kotylak? He issued a public apology today:
Open Questions:
1) Do you believe he’s sincere?
2) Do you sense that him coming forward like this was his own idea?
3) Does this change your views on what punishment he should face?
4) If your answer to #3 is ‘Yes’, what do you think would be a fair punishment for him?
“Again, a spontaneous crowd is completely, totally, different from a predetermined mob. Totally. You can be the most upstanding citizen and in a spontaneous crowd, lose your self-identity and become One.”
Really? Is that how you would explain your actions to the judge? You destroyed publicly paid property and expect to get a “do over”, because you didn’t plan it? Hahahahahahahahaha!
I take it that would also be your defence for not wearing a condom and some other hoity-toity daughter got preggers? Because in the heat of the moment I just lost myself control? “I mean I didn’t plan it Judge, (snif) please don’t make it any worse, I’m just a poor, underage boy looooooost in the Big Bad World”. Cue the friggin’ violins!
They had a GD choice – to go home! These people have not learned right from wrong and I pin it on their upbringing, at home and at school. They are not learning a single thing about personal responsibility.
In their world, like their damned hoity-toity parents, their world involves “do overs”, “notes from my doctor – fill in the blank”, or “preferential treatment, because my johnny would never do thaaaaaat”.
They take no responsibility to be even socially involved, or engaged with the world about them except as to how that world relates to them. The SOB hasn’t grown up yet and from his yuk, yuk, yuk actions he apparently hasn’t learned self control, either.
Five years, defending democracy and his right to be an asshat in public. Nothing less.
Wow! I can’t believe some of the comments on this topic. I guess there is not much virtue in a sincere apology with many of you. I’m thinking that the majority of folks on this blog are quite perfect and have nothing in their past to be ashamed of…………. or you never got CAUGHT!? Maybe its because there was no internet back then.
I have no doubt that this young man’s apology is sincere. He absolutely recognizes the enormity of his actions and who he has hurt, besides himself.
This is not your garden variety punk/gang-banger. He was, as he says, caught up in the moment and did something really stupid. He accepts responsibility. You can speculate all you like about having no choice because he was caught but he did step out from the protection of the YCJ act to take responsibility.
Punishment – absolutely. A fine, community service and probation.
If there is no redemption for one’s actions in a sincere apology and willingness to accept the consequences then there is no hope for anyone’s rehabilitation in our society.
“Well, Brigette DePape has her first example of an “Arab Spring” riot. Hope she is proud, for that is what she thinks must happen to “Stop Harper” in Canada.”
There is lots we don’t understand about mobs but the “DePage” story is as good a place to start as any. She clearly has had an experience in academia that diminished her respect for the process of democracy and causes her to let her collectivist thoughts trump the power of individual ballot.
Other collectivist ideas trumping the individual can be found in our blessed Charter which doesn’t even have property rights in it.
Maybe we should learn from this to voice at our next PTA meeting that we want our kids to be taught the dangers of group collectivism and of the short comings of our Charter. That might give our kids pause next time a mob scenario arises and hopefully they’ll find a spine that guides them to respect the rights of others and not follow the mob.
Meanwhile as a male who remembers some spontaneous, thoughtless activities as a youth that were nothing to be proud of, let’s be a bit flexible for those kids coming forward and being genuinely remorseful.
Nathan is only sorry he got caught, he would not have come forward if no photographic evidence went viral on the web.
apology not accepted.
Remember, if he gets a pass and is allowed to stay on the Olympic Team it means that some other deserving kid, a kid who didn’t participate in a riot, a kid who made the right moves in life won’t be on the team. A pass comes with a cost.
If he was really remorseful, he would have said he’s voluntarily dropping out of of contention for the Olympic Team, because he didn’t deserve and because he realizes his actions were criminal.
What he said was he hoped everything would work out fine for him despite his actions.
Truly an “entitled to his entitlements” mindset.
And the idea of his volunteering for the Army/PPCLI . . . he wouldn’t get past the first interview . . . they would turn him down because of his lack of sense of morality.
Not the kind of guy you want covering your six on a two way range. You want someone you can trust to do the right thing and he has loudly and clearly demonstrated he chose to not do the right thing.
Maybe a couple years of voluntary public service in a Veteran’s Hospital emptying bedpans and caring for wounded soldiers.
Then forgiveness.
Busted!
Guilty!
Two tours in Afghanistan and pay for the cop car. There were enough healthy young rioters to to give the volunteer army a rest. They would be doing something useful (for a change).
When I was 17 a cop would have beaten the crap out of me for doing stuff like I saw. They would have just gone in clubs swinging. Guilty or innocent get your arse off the street and go home.
Hate to sound like a curmudgeon but they have faced a life of no consequences. Not in school and not at home. It just doesn’t matter.
I don’t care if he’s sincere, sniveling or crying he broke the law and our penal system should deal with him not the media. He’s old enough to set fire to a cop car he’s old enough to face a court of law and plead guilty.
Nope – I’ll stand by my points. And I think some of the self-righteousness here are missing the point.
First- stop with the envy-of-the-rich underlying many comments. Stop blaming the parents, don’t call them ‘hoity-toity parents’, don’t refer to their wealth..and don’t think that some not-so-rich weren’t there as well.
batb and lookout – we are, you and I, all academics in the teaching profession and we sure know many individuals who are basic liars, manipulators, self-absorbed..thugs. But these are individuals! I’m talking about something completely different – and you know what, it’s the rare person who is totally immune to the powerful gobbling swarming ‘mouth’ of a crowd, of a mob.
A crowd or mob is an animal unique to itself. It swallows individualism. We really don’t understand mass behaviour very well; we think of it, incorrectly, as made up of a ‘bunch of individuals’. No. The individual boundaries and constraints are lost in the reality of a mob.
Again, that’s why riot police present themselves as a ‘mob’, i.e., as a large force-without-any-individuals in them. They do that to provoke fear in another mob. But..the question then comes – how does a spontaneous mob form?
We know they form. They will form at an opening of a new Wal-Mart store where people will get trampled as the doors open; they’ll form at a bread line; they’ll form at any and all events where there is a crowd who are focused on ONE issue: that store, that food, that charismatic leader; that sports event. Something triggers the loss of order…and the hysteria begins.
As I said – crowd control can’t simply be ‘another mob’, ie, the black-dressed riot police who march-as-one, and rap their batons on their shields-as-one. There has to be more means to prevent a crowd from turning into a mob. My suggestion was to keep-them-as-individuals by forcing them to make choices. This activity or that activity. [Note – how often a crowd turns into a mob when there are no choices offered].
As for retribution – of course there should NOT be any jail time! These youth are not criminals, their acts unlike those of the G20 are not premeditated acts. There should be fines – specific to a destructive act – ie., pay for this window, pay for this car, pay for this looted goods; and work to help repair the window etc and community time. Period.
There is no need for us to feel smug and sanctimonious about this behaviour; we are, as human, equally frail..and we simply don’t understand how a mob emerges from a crowd..an unscripted, unpremeditated mob.
And if anyone thinks I’m arguing for myself – I’m not. I’ve never been in a crowd/mob nor do I know anyone who was in such a situation. But, I am aware of the difference between an individual and a mob…and a mob is NOT made up of a collection of individuals. The individual disappears in a mob.
Well, of course he’s sorry now because suddenly his life sucks. The authorities can’t go soft because people have lawyered up and started apologizing. A message needs to be sent about this crime, and the lawmakers could start with one year minimum sentences for all rioters who disobey a police call to disperse.
Will it happen? No. We’ll get sad stories in the Sun, the lawmakers will talk of economic inequality and disenfranchised youth and we’ll get the same thuggish behaviour at the next fireworks fest or Canada Day.
ET presents the voice of reason.
A lot of you are putting forth the same class and success-envy that you decry the left for.
The kid is 17. He blew his chance at a scholarship, he shamed himself and his family, and he should pay some price. Just not the blood-price some (most) of you want.
Somehow, though, because his family is successful you somehow think he’s not capable of feeling remorse? Shameful.
Nathan is sincere in his remorse, it is quite apparent. The fact that he can’t deny he torched the police car makes it worse for him. If he hadn’t been filmed, probably the most anxiety he would have would be “Am I gonna get caught?”.
You can tell that he is shaken and knows that his life has changed, but he still tries to distance himself from it by saying things like “My actions” and “what happened on that night”.
So he is doing the right thing now, and it’s been a learning opportunity for him, but he shouldn’t escape punishment for his destructive behavior.
This is an opportunity for the authorities to make an example of the vandals who have had their rampaging recorded by TV crews, cellcams or witnesses; most of them were happy to gloat before, let them suffer now for the damage they caused. The Riot Act has muscle, and once invoked, should use that muscle properly, much less damage, injury and hand-wringing would happen.
Smart people in the crowd likely went home the minute they saw it start to get ugly.
Beyond the property damaged, the rioters harmed the incomes of people because of stores and businesses being wrecked, many probably can’t go to work yet.
a different bob – right, thanks for your comments.
I too am surprised at the viciousness of some of the comments here. You say that you ‘forgive’ the young man, but, it’s pure rhetoric if your forgiveness is merely verbal and you then insist on jail time.
The G20 Toronto riots were criminal actions; they were completely different from these Vancouver riots. Going to the G20 meetings was a deliberate choice-to-riot. That’s because you weren’t going to talk at these G20 meetings! You weren’t going to even see or hear one second of the discussions! So – why go?
To demonstrate? But not one G20 delegate would even see or hear you! So why go? To riot. Period. There are, after all, constructive ways to protest globalization: set up groups, write reasoned petitions, go to parliament. But ‘protest’ to delegates who won’t see or hear you? That’s stupid.
So- the G20 riots were criminal acts and anyone who went there to ‘protest’ and moved into riot behaviour should be treated as such. Instead, the blame is being put on the ‘mean police’…and ignoring the deliberate intentional behaviour of the rioters.
The Vancouver riots were not premeditated but a spontaneous mob. Totally different. No jail time but fiscal responsibility, personal work helping with the clean-up and community service. Period.
Again, since this behaviour was NOT premeditated, then we have to understand that a crowd can turn into a mob in the flick of a switch..and the individual is buried in that change.
So, the Riot police are necessary..but that’s only one mob vs another mob. Instead, the focus ought to be on preventing that switch from occurring. Provide choices of after-game activities so that the individual mind is engaged in making a choice.
When a crowd turns into a mob, it’s usually because no choice has been offered. There’s only one door to use as an exit; only one bag of rice available; only one way out….
If any good can come from what happened in Vancouver, it would be the courts forcing RESTITUTION for damages, in a very public way, by individuals like Mr. Kotalyk.
I want to see dollar values in the newspaper. Big, sobering numbers.
Those young people who are on the cusp of becoming good citizens or ne’er-do-wells, do not fear jail, or community service, and barely fear the public humiliation of them or their families. But they understand $$$.
Forced restitution is the ONLY punishment that will reduce the odds of this sort of thing happening again, in Vancouver or elsewhere.
His apology bores me as much as ETs blatherings.
When the opportunity to whack these snot nosed creeps, you do it. Lock em up now!
ET is absolutely right. That is why there can be no guilt associated with AGW. After all we are all just going along with the mob. I’m sure that Maoists are truly remorseful after being led by the mob into slaughtering millions.
What a load of CRAP. First of all. There is no one good but God. All have sinned. It doesn’t matter the status, wealth or recognition. What does matter is the courageous, moral and ethical choices you make in the stressful situations. Take the other young man, the son of a cop who tried to prevent damage from being done. Why did he NOT choose the destructive course of action and join in the car-b-que? Surely he was under the same influence as the polo player. History is littered with heroes who went against the mob. If we hold them up as heroes then we need to repudiate the anti heroes who went along with and those especially who were major players in the mob.
Jesus tells you to forgive. If you are a Christian you are required by your faith to forgive this young man. If you cannot forgive him, then you cannot be, yourself, forgiven for your errors. Compassion is a human trait. If you have no compassion, you lack basic humanity.
blame crash – what a smug sanctimonious comment. You show such moral and intellectual superiority! Ahh, it must be nice to be you, above and beyond ever making any mistakes or doing anything stupid. Ahhh……
turtle – how about providing some evidence for your conclusion that these young people (all of them??) only care about money. Evidence please.
Again, a crowd is made up of a collection of individuals but a mob is not made up of a collection of individuals. We don’t understand how mobs are formed and their dynamics.
We have lots of evidence of a crowd becoming a mob – whether it be in the more benign ‘mass hysteria’ (everyone thinking they are sick); or violent and vicious emotional adulation of a charistmatic political leader; or witch trials and lynchings; or specific grievance riots (Toronto G20); or fear (exit from burning building)…or..the Vancouver riot.
All that we know for sure are that they are emotional, that the individual is submerged, and that this submersion can be either developed by a leader (G20 preplanned agendas; a political leader who wants total adulation)..or..importantly, have NO leader.
We don’t know enough about how a crowd turns into a mob. But, again, destructive mob behaviour that was not preplanned and where the individual ‘wakes up’ and admits it and apologizes..deserves to be met with a request for financial compensation and community service. Not jail.
Otherwise – we as a society are not differentiating between the premeditated agenda and the spontaneous. That’s unjust.
Vincent Li was a spontaneous guy as well.
anonymous: Your spew is nonsense. As individuals we are under the obligation to forgive those who trespass against us as individuals. However as a society we have an obligation to maintain standards. Failure to do so will result in the complete breakdown of the society. As Paul wrote we have to submit to the authorities because the authority is there by the Will of God. Do we seek revenge? Of course not.
Almost 40 years ago, before the young offenders act, a good friend of mine was caught up with a group of older guys, who stole and torched a car. He was the only one the police were able to identify, and he refused to rat out the rest of the group. The judge gave him 3 years for car theft, and 3 years for arson. He served just over 2 years at Dorchester, along with the most hardened criminals in the country. He was 16 when he entered that prison, and an old man when he walked out.
Whatever happens to this kid, it won’t be as life altering as it would have been in the not too distant past. So what if he’s kicked off the water polo team? Where’s the big future in water polo? So what if he loses his scholarship? Lots of kids go to university without scholarships. There’s no need to feel badly for this kid. He won’t go to jail, and he probably won’t have a criminal record.
He apologizes, we forgive him and everything is hunky-dory? I don’t think so.
He has to show that deserves forgiveness. Coming forward and apologizing is only the beginning. He needs to accept any consequences that come his way, be they from a judge, a sports team, a university or society at large; he has to make amends; and he has to show that he is changing his ways. Then, and only then, does he deserve forgiveness.
As for compassion, I’ll save mine for the people the ER nurse linked above treated. I’ll save my compassion for people who had their businesses damaged and the employees who had to lock themselves in back rooms.
1. lifetime expulsion from olympics
2. pay for the cop car
3. pay a proportionate cost of putting the fire out.
4. jail time and probation
5. for starters. the fact this image will be ‘out there’ FOREVER is also punishment. it is for instance, the headline story of the tranna star (with the eyes blacked out)
You went and did it again ET!
But I really enjoyed that first paragraph. Has it occured to you that you might be projecting something about yourself by accusing others of something that you’re guilty of?
Here we go again…apology with no consequences….trying to ignite a police car with a rag down the gasoline tank…man that’s a shooting offence.
His Mom and Dad spoiled the little punk and he is one more example of the entitlement generation….you reap what you sow Mr. & Mrs. Kotylak.
Best riot I saw was when the Hawks beat the Klippers and then the Raiders.
OK – wasn’t really a riot but snowballs at the team bus.
We knew how to have harmless fun in those days.
I agree with Gelien…where did the match/lighter and the extra shirt come from?
All of the photographs of Kotylak lighting the fire, including the video, appear to show someone engaged in a deliberate, willful and measured act. I write “measured” because he’s not jumping up and down on vehicles, supposedly caught up in the frenzy of “mob mentality”. Instead, he is seen taking the time to hold a match close to the tank, and again to hold the match to the bottom of the shirt that has been stuffed in the tank and again throwing something into the vehicle and then clapping and cheering about it. Did he stuff the shirt into the tank? Where did he get it? What else did he have in his backpack? Were those distinctive sneakers seen in any other incriminating photographs?
Hopefully there will be consequences for him and being affected personally is perhaps the only way he will grow as a human being. He could have killed someone (or himself) through his actions and nothing that he suffers as a consequence of his stupidity will be as serious as that.
His apology comes only after his name went viral on the net. No doubt the apology was carefully scripted and under consultation from his legal advisor. Yes, he’s crying, but what is he really crying about? He seems the most upset about googling himself and finding that he’s squandered his opportunities. The nurse’s response to another perpetrator’s apology is something every one of these idiots should read. “17” and “mob mentality” is no excuse. It’s all about choice and consequence, willful lack of respect and self-absorption. I wish these vandals would all have to pay for every part of their “party”…the cost of loss of property, loss of income, spiraling insurance costs, the cost of fire service, police and hospital emergency services, etc. etc. etc. And I find it fascinating that through the social media that kids court and adore, they could be stigmatized for a very, very long time.
this is the best for this young man he needs to understand fully the serious crime he committed he should have community service at the very least with some time in court before a judge to make him understand the seriousness of his action
I hope he will turn out to be a great Canadian
fh
Just to put a point out there for everyone that thinks this perp is going to be punished or for that matter should be punished, how about comparing the crime to what the Liberal senator that was just convicted for fraud was sentenced to. This student torched a $50,000 police car which is probably equivelant to what the senator “stole” from the Canadian taxpayer. How many of you think that this student is going to get ‘six and six’?
The comments of the majority on this issue is a great example of the “mob mentatily”.
I seem to have seen some photos of pretty fancy, schmancy stuff being lifted outta store fronts ET. These kids know all about what money can buy and in Katchmeifyoukan’s case his daddy buys him a lawyer, to limit the damage to daddy’s reputation. Just feel the love there, ET.
Community service or a small restitutive fine for torching a police car? Arson, destruction of public property, riot, reckless endangerment, unlawful use of a match and tee shirt. Yeah, sure. Quit defending this guy. I wasn’t a shining white knight at 17, but I at least knew my limits, regardless of what everybody else was doing at the time.
Junior hasn’t learned anything from this except to not get caught next time. Maybe. There will be a next time for this guy. Most of these goons will just yuck it up with their friends, once the heat dies down.
How do I know? I work with meatheads like this every day. From a variety of economic backgrounds, too. They have their societal uses, but they are the underworld that rmmmages around in the background. They don’t care about your world, ET. They are a pack animal. Maybe you should study it from that angle.
ET – nice speeches.
The facebook posts and twitters prior to this spontaneous event, asked questions like “are you going to the riot?”. The only people that seemed surprised there was a riot were the police chief, the mayor, the premier, and you.
Did you get that? They actually made a decision, as individuals, to go and join a “mob” … or did twitter and facebook make them do this also?
How comforting life must be if your a safe distance from reality.
no, blame crash, I’m afraid I’m very dull and have never done a thing out of line – nor do I know anyone who has done so.
But it did occur to me that people like you would think I was ‘projecting’ and that’s why I made it clear in one post – that I had never participated in any such, or other, asocial acts..and knew, personally, of no-one who had done so. OK?
I am using my REASONING capacities and thinking about what, why and what to do…in these situations. And the slick ‘fling them in jail’ is as mindless as the riot actions.
PO in Alberta – so, are you saying that all young people, men and women, are basically part of the underworld and are ‘meatheads’? I’m afraid I don’t get your point.
Again – what I’m saying is that a crowd turning into a mob is a psychological phenomenon that is not fully understood – and that includes the actions of burning a car. People here are ignoring this transformation – totally ignoring it – and treating a mob as a ‘collection of individuals’. No, it isn’t. A mob has no individuality to it.
And a riot that is premeditated is completely different to a spontaneous one.
I find the ‘groupthink’ mentality of many of the commenters here, rejecting reason, rejecting analysis and just vicious – throw them in jail – comments to be a version of the mob mentality.
If the acts were not premeditated, and the individual comes forth and apologizes and pays for retribution and works on the clean up and does community service – I think that’s the Just Society’s response.
And I think that the class envy portrayed by some here is beneath the quality of this blog site.
a lot of talk about what disgrace he’s brought to his family, friends and organizations he’s a a part of, but I’d say he’s more likely in tears because he’s essentially ruined what opportunities he had to build his life. I buy that he’s remorseful for what’s happened to him as a result of his actions sure; I buy that he’s ashamed. But he repeatedly uses weasel words, such as ‘what happened that night’, and ‘the mob mentality’ instead of ‘what I did that night’.
in short, sorry for the consequences but if he hadn’t been caught he wouldn’t care less. I’m sorry for him inasmuch as it’s sad a seemingly-promising young man has thrown away all the opportunities and potential in a moment of absolute stupidity.
ET, with respect, this young man was not just part of the mob. He stepped out of the crowd—to torch a police car, on camera. What he did defies logic and any kind of reasonableness. It was an egregiously CRIMINAL act, the consequences of which, on the ground, could have been catastrophic. It was also a complete “F**k you” to authority. And the cost of a police car to the community is considerable. If Nathan were only” vogueing”, he’d just be part of the mob. What he did went FAR—and hideously— beyond that.
Those going on about forgiveness don’t appear to know what they’re talking about. I don’t know enough about Nathan to know if his apology was sincere: there are certainly some aspects that suggest he’s more sorry for the consequences for him than the act itself. So, re forgiveness, I’m reserving judgement. Plus, even if the apology is sincere (God knows), it doesn’t absolve Nathan of the very real consequences of his action. He’s now involved in a criminal procedure, which an apology, no matter how sincere, does not address.
It’s seriously too bad that our young people have been so let down by the “adults” in their lives, including the police, who should have stepped in far sooner. If the “adults” had done their jobs long ago, Nathan would have figured out, with a pretty minor consequence—a spanking, being grounded, losing his allowance, given a detention (kids have lessons after school and so often even this deterrent is disallowed)—that doing the right (does he even know about “right and wrong”?) thing is a good idea. I do feel sorry for Nathan and, yes, the whole establishment—which makes fun of and actively persecutes the Judeo-Christian dispensation—is on trial here. But Nathan is now bearing a heavy load of his own choosing. He does not deserve to be let off lightly. (And for the Pollyannas here: if you think I’m being “mean”, so be it.)
A few years ago, I worked with several ‘kids’s in their late teens to mid twenties. It was common practice for them to travel in packs to different clubs, trying to get into fights where they could gang up on someone. Occasionally heard talk of taking screwdrivers, etc. with them ‘in case one of the others pulled out a weapon’.
These were all priviledged kids, driving BMW’s, new souped up Acuras, Lexus’, etc. living at home with their parents who earned well into 6 figures.
They will no doubt float through University, getting some kind of degree and get a good job through their parents’ connections and become ‘pillars of the community’. However, I would have difficulty hiring any one of them.
(I suppose I should be careful what I say, I may end up having to work for them instead)
I believe the whole incident / crime spree can be summed up in one word: character
Who you are when you are alone is the same person you are when you are in public, and under peer-pressure.
Nathan does not stand up to the true test of having good character, he gave in to the enticement of doing evil. Now the weight of that decision has landed on him, but not until he was “outed”.
I would like to put forward a suggestion. Collect every person’s name and profile who gets arrested and convicted and track them for the next 50 years, without their knowledge (that being a mute point now that this is out there) and lay a time line and course of their life’s direction.
It would be a fascinating study to see which ones truly have the character to redeem their lives after these supposed “brain-f*rts” during this riot, and which ones continue to live with their anarchist bent.
I would be all to willing to work with a young man like this, to teach him and work with him to bring value and purpose and the destiny which he has the potential of attaining…AFTER he has paid in full, the restitution of 5 times the value of that police vehicle by the sweat of his hands and brow. Nothing like a contrite spirit to make him pliable and teachable.
Just my 2 cents.
wayne – your description of a young, wealthy, ‘I’m entitled’ youth is not a universal definition of either the youth in our country nor of the wealthy youth.
Equally, a description that defines all who are on welfare as ‘lazy cheats’ is just as false.
The class antagonism, the wealth-envy of so many on this post makes me wonder: is this a lefist site?
lookout – being a part of a mob doesn’t mean that all your actions are done ‘as one’. It means that your actions, as an individual, are outside of reason, outside of normal constraints, and fit into the emotional hysteria of the whole event as it is occurring.
Again, my response is: IF you come forward, acknowledge your role and publicly apologize, THEN, your punishment is to pay retribution, perform specific clean-up acts and community service – then this is a just societal response.
The ‘fling them in jail’ response is, to me, unwarranted. This was not a G20 premeditated response; the crowd did not attend the game to protest the game and riot. Any ‘twitters’ about a riot does not mean that they were coming to participate but to watch. The focus is on those who participated in destruction and looting.
I believe he sincerely regrets getting caught. If he hadn’t been caught there is no way in hell he would man up about what he did.
I believe his daddy’s lawyer told him what to say, and he will do what daddy’s lawyer tells him only because he is scared of the consequences he is now facing.
Yes it changes my view of what his punishment should be. Restitution for all his damage is not good enough, because he won’t pay a dime, daddy will, and daddy is not the one who deserves punishment. He should do community service Monday to Friday at $10/hr to pay off what he owes in restitution, and spend weekends in prison until it is paid off. He should never be allowed to compete in this country’s name.
Mike L said “..trying to ignite a police car with a rag down the gasoline tank…man that’s a shooting offence.”
Exactly. The second he went to light the rag he should have been shot. I have seen first hand the damage an exploding gas tank can do. He was trying to set off a large bomb in a crowded area. This wasn’t some kid pushing over a mail box or breaking a window. I expect more charges will be brought forward by the crown. He should be looking at 3 years.
a different bob: “The comments of the majority on this issue is a great example of the “mob mentatily”.”
Well then we can all be excused for kicking the snot out of these rioters then right? As part of the spontaneous SDA mob, I obviously have NO control over my own actions and am free to do whatever I want, consequence free!!
Here’s the thing – I actually agree with the idea of a “mob mentality”. I fully believe that being caught up with a crowd can amplify emotions, and that situations like this can lead to people doing things they would never normally do. HOWEVER, I don’t think that excuses them from all responsibility and/or consequences of their actions when caught up “in the moment”. You become part of a mob, you face full consequences for whatever was done while you were part of that mob. Should a gang rapist be let off lightly because “well all the other guys were doing it, I kinda got caught up in the moment”? Most people will say no, so why should these rioters be any different?
Also, there is a limit to what “mob mentality” can do. After all, there were literally tens of thousands of people who were somehow able to resist the lure of the “One” (as ET put it)… how were they able to maintain their individuality? How come a just small percentage of the people on Vancouver streets that night actually rioted, while the vast majority got their asses home without lighting cop cars on fire? If the mob is irresistable, how did so many people manage to NOT riot that night? I fully believe the only people who let themselves get caught up in something like that already have a predisposition towards that behaviour and are just looking for an excuse/outlet.
ET, what you suggest about crowd behaviour I tend to agree with. However, I’m simply not interested in this argument, any more than I’m interested in Robert’s opening questions.
Our society can only be based on individual responsibility. And individuals must be held accountable for their actions. I don’t care whether it was crowd mentality, narcotics, alcohol or whatever.
I don’t care whether his apology was real or feigned. And my opinion of what his punishment should be is irrelevant. That’s what the law is for, and it should take its course.
As to your comments regarding the spite and malice expressed on this thread, you are of course entirely correct.
no mercules – because a mob is either premeditated or spontaneous. And the hostile ‘lynch them all’ comments of many on this thread are not spontaneous but premeditated. This is your stock answer to ‘the evil wealthy kids’.
It’s amazing how so many of the comments have, instead of focusing on how a crowd becomes a mob, have instead focused on ‘make this rich kid and his arrogant parents with their lawyers’ pay and put him in jail…It’s all about the wealthy parents. Weird.
mercules – again, we don’t understand the psychology of when a crowd becomes a mob – and it is a pyschological switch. So, many of those who did not participate – but enjoyed-by-watching – are one segment of a mob, while those who did participate are another segment.
cgh – yes, our society is based on individual responsibility. BUT, our psychological nature is both individual and collective and we have to understand what happens to the individual when this individual psyche is subsumed under a group emotional hype – whether it be trampling each other trying to get out of a fire, or swooning over a movie star or political leader, or..rioting.
For the zillionth time, I’m not recommending no justice, but fair justice. Aknowledge your actions publicly, pay for them, work on the clean-up and do community work. But – this was NOT a G20 mob – and therefore, no jail time. And don’t define them as ‘basically evil young men’ for the rest of their lives.
ET: ” … And I think some of the self-righteousness here are missing the point.”
I don’t see any self-righteousness. Most of us are simply saying to this kid and all the others, face the music, pal. You did the deed, you’ve got to make it right.
Why should a 17-year-old be let off the hook because he’s 17 years old? ‘You let him off the hook now, and at 25, he’ll still be doing crappy stuff because he learned nothing from his last escapade.
” … we are, as human[s], equally frail …”
Yes, we’re all human but as for “equally frail,” not necessarily. I want to look at all the young and old people in that “mob” who did not contribute to the mayhem and some who even risked their safety to try and stop the thugs from looting. Are they “equally frail” as the bullies and vandals who made a decision to join in the “fun”?
In this “unscripted [how do you know this?], unpremeditated [how do you know this?] mob” more people chose not to participate in the vandalism, so the makeup of the mob scene is no excuse. There actually seems to be some evidence of premeditation and pre-planning for this riot.
ET
“The G20 Toronto riots were led by people who came with a predetermined agenda to incite and carry out massive damage. The Vancouver riots were not, as far as I can see, predetermined. Was there a specific focus on anti-hockey games? No.”
And you know this how?
How many people attend a sporting event with a molotov cocktail in their back pack?
I suspect many came from a long distance to “throw a riot” regardles of the outcome of the hockey game. I suspect the predetermined aspect was less than G20 but was an element none-the-less.
batb – the reason I’m saying that it wasn’t premeditated is because the event, a sports event, was not something that a crowd went to..to protest against it.
The G20 in Toronto was an event where a crowd went for only ONE reason; to protest globalization. No other reason. The crowd couldn’t attend the meetings! Whereas the sports event crowd went to see the game! The team might have won.
So- going to the game, as a crowd, had no premeditation in it whatsoever. Could you provide evidence of premeditation? Was it planned to riot IF they won or IF they didn’t win?
Nor am I advocating no punishment. I’m not going to repeat my recommendations for the zillionth time. But, I am against the rather vicious responses of ‘throw them in jail’ and ‘track them the rest of their lives’ and ‘down with the rich’ that seem to be so common on this thread.
And yes, the ones who did not partake in this riot are ‘equally frail’. Perhaps they did not succumb in this instance, but, we cannot define ourselves, because we are human, as always above weakness – whether it be in turning our back on someone in need, or refusing to speak out about an important issue (eg, those who watched the Third Reich)..or..
If the car had exploded and people had been killed,instead of worrying about being kicked off the water polo team he would be having to expalin to some mother why her 17 year old daughter went to a hockey game and came home in a body bag.
In any other country, if you try to light a cop car’s gas tank on fire you would be arrested for terrorism and attempted murder.
There is also video of him throwing a lit piece of paper in the front seat and then a lit piece of paper in the back seat. So he tried 3 times to start a cop car on fire.
My 6 year old nephew knows not to play with matches and start fires. As far as mob mentality and “getting caught up in it” as he says. I hope to God that if he was at a frat party and saw a group of guys sexually assaulting a girl he wouldn’t “get caught up in it”.
I am astonished and quite saddened that people don’t see this crime for what it is. Like the poster “$FKA gord” said above, he tried to set off a large bomb. And if he didn’t know that trying to light a gas tank would yield an explosion? Well then he is not mature enough to go to university much less leave the house.
ET said “Again, my response is: IF you come forward, acknowledge your role and publicly apologize, THEN, your punishment is to pay retribution, perform specific clean-up acts and community service – then this is a just societal response.”
I think you are missing a ‘forward thinking’ component here. We must look, not only at what this little guttersnipe did, but at what other people may do in the future. If the only consequence of destroying other peoples property is that you have to pay it back, then anybody with a few thousand bucks can burn your car. I don’t think that is part of teh “Just Society (TM)”. Punishment aims not only at the act and person who did it, it also aims to deter others from engaging in the behaviour. He should face consequences of such a nature that other people look at it and say to themselves, ‘cripes, I don’t want that to happen to me, I had better alter my behaviour’. (There is a point, before you succumb completely to the mob mentality, that you can reason in such a manner and get the hell out of there before you cross the line. If you don’t do that, then you should face the consequences.)
ET: lookout is right. Your excuse of mob mentality doesn’t hold. “He stepped out of the crowd—to torch a police car.” That’s exceptional.
He’s not jumping up and down on vehicles, supposedly caught up in the frenzy of “mob mentality”. Instead, he is seen taking the time…several times…to blow up a police car, then clapping and cheering about it. He’s contrite because he’s been caught (would he have come forward if the photos and videos didn’t exist…likely not. And, as Mark commented, he “repeatedly uses weasel words, such as ‘what happened that night’, and ‘the mob mentality’ instead of ‘what I did that night’.” Does he understand that he endangered lives, or does he just see everything through the narcissistic lens of his own life? He googled his name and saw something he didn’t like. He got caught. In order to learn and move on, he will, because of his actions have to suffer losses and consequences too. Regardless of whether you like what folks are saying here, this kid made choices and these choices will define him. He set this in motion. Hopefully one day he can be honest with himself, admit to “what he was thinking” and take full responsibility for his actions.
Coddle the one – coddle the many … that’s the way our law system works.
“Society” should shut up and be glad they don’t have to pay for the shirt, lighter, and time to set cop cars on fire.
It will help us enjoy our next riot even more.