Ron Radosh notes that socialist Frances Fox Piven is back in the Nation magazine calling for a revival of the “Cloward-Piven Strategy.” For those unfamiliar with that strategy, Piven formulated it with her late husband, Richard Cloward, for an article in a 1966 issue of the Nation. According to DiscoverTheNetworks, the Cloward-Piven Strategy “seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.” It was employed to varying degrees by radical groups such as the National Welfare Rights Organization and Acorn.
4th last paragraph:
“What she is calling for is nothing less than the chaos and violence engulfing Europe.
Disgruntled leftist unionists, students who expect an education without cost, and citizens of social-democratic states cannot accept that the old terms of the social contract they thought would last forever have worn out their welcome.”
What else has contributed to the rising violence, the “no-go” areas of Europe?
America’s economic collapse doesn’t need help from doctrinare socialists. Corrupt insider capitalists on Wall Street and their Obama bail out stooges in DC are doing fine without.
If the collapse comes, expect the leftist stooges to try to get help from their “friends and comrades” in other countries.
I do not think that would succeed. But if it does, these leftists just don’t understand what that help will entail.
The cloward piven clowns may think they will end up in control because their friends are “only” interested in social justice.
The experienced revolutionaries “helping them” will make sure these idiots are removed. The Cloward Piven acolytes and wanna-be socialist justice experts may not know it, but they will be the first up against the wall.
Even before they come for us “counter-revolutionaries” and burgeoise.
seems it almost worked, they started it here in Canaduh in 1968 and in about 40 years they almost had a collapse. the yanks started with Carter a few years later but managed to mess it things up faster.
But, wait a second.. that wouldn’t overload capitalism, it would overload socialism.
I’z wants my money from Obamba’s stash too!
How comes I’m still paying ma goddamned rent? We wuz told that Obamba would bust a cap in those rich crackers butts and pay us our fair share!
If we don’t get whats coming to us in 2011 we be tearen up the streets, from NY to LA till we gets our fair share. Amen.
Michael Savage- Stupidest Caller Ever- Welfare Money From Obama Stash, Illegal Aliens; Open Borders!
This will floor ya’s
Hell is a place where there is no reason.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg0pDPK56Ys&feature=player_embedded
Shawn, great video. Savage’s caller Jo is your typical socialist supporter. Dumber than a bag of hammers.
The moral corruption of this whole scenario stems from altruism, the evil “moral” code that claims we are all responsible for one another and have no right to live for our own sake. Those who seek government handouts are merely asking others be altruistic and to look after them.
The Alinsky rule about trying to make the other guy live up to his principles because it’s allegedly “impossible” doesn’t work when the other guy abandons altruism and replaces it with a consistent concept of freedom and individual rights. Those principles are based on justice and it is entirely possible to live up to them.
Meanwhile, I like Radosh’s title, “the second time is farce”, although I hope it doesn’t turn into a tragedy.
People forget evil never shows it real side. Its always in the form of seeming goodness, which in the end is against ALL against human nature. Though it but tickles the ears of the self confessed “Smart ” Elite.
Like Children playing with nukes.
All you have to know is: Has socialism in 40 years improved life anywhere in Canada? Particularly the most “progressive” Provinces. Has Using abortion gone down as birth control? Has education improved? How about health? Maybe corruption is down? Perhaps you have more individual freedom? No!
We all know the answers, its failed miserably!!! Yet Politicians still decant the same fallacies year after year. The same Grey nullities of this well of toxin called Marxism or social equality. More like social suicide.
JMO
The next time someone tries to stereotype all Calgarians as redneck capitalist hicks, Give them a big, “Oh yah, what about Frances Fox Piven, born 1932, Calgary, Alberta Canada!”
What they are pushing for is the collapse of socialism. Capitalism never dies, it just becomes the black market under the most oppressive circumstances and then, once those circumstances collapse it blooms stronger than ever.
I consider the global implosion of the entitlement safety net to be one of the most beneficial events for mankind ever in the long term. No question it will cause varying degrees of hardship in the short to mid term, but like physical fitness, short term austerity (read dieting) and struggle (read exercise) are necessary for a society’s long term prosperity.
Posted by: Cal >
The major things that has saved Calgary from turning into a Toronto style liberal zoo, is conservative policies and the “Redneck” label.
Take a look around Calgary these days. Lot’s of liberal social engineering fast turning a beautiful prosperous city into another pseudo ghetto.
Suppose that we are witnessing the demise of crony capitalism after all. The engineered collapse is taking place right before our very eyes. Is it not too late to stop it? I hear lots of talk from the right complaining. I don’t see much action, though.
If an engineered collapse is taking place, and is the result of deliberate action on the left, then should we not offer cudos to those that have enough conviction to walk their talk?
Sound like current plan of the Liberal party and the socialists/fascist crowd in Canada.
troll asks: “If an engineered collapse is taking place, and is the result of deliberate action on the left, then should we not offer cudos to those that have enough conviction to walk their talk?”
Not really, seeing as how the Left are the ones who created this situation in the first place. Without you morons there’d be no welfare state and crony capitalism to collapse.
Additionally, since the Left’s aim is to set up an un-free, centrally planned “utopia” like Cuba or North Korea, they never walk their talk anyway. They lie, lie and lie, while destroying anything they can get their hands on that still works.
Its “kudos” by the way. With a K. Go back under your bridge.
What is needed, [Piven] suggests, are “mass protests” that might influence Obama…
Isn’t that pretty much what happened on Nov 2?
sleeping on grates – it’s not the collapse of crony capitalism but the collapse of crony socialism that ought to concern you.
First, you are naive if you think that ‘cronyism’, or kin-based economics, will ever disappear. It’s part of our psychological nature, thank goodness, to care for our kin and friends. We are not robots or bacteria. Or stones. We are animals – and all such beings exist within a familial nurturance.
Socialism rejects the familial nurturance and instead, focuses only on the individual! I bet you never thought of that. But socialism operates by taking the whole pool of money, from those who work, and giving it all away to individuals. Who spend it as individuals. Not as a collective.
To overload a system’s capacity for redistribution is only possible if you have set up a system that operates outside of a kin structure. It must take funds from kin and redistribute them to non-kin. To individuals.
It would be like one family having to work and support twenty individuals who do not contribute to the pool of funds or to the work within the community. Hmmm. Can’t be done.
Socialism is also filled with cronyism. Kin-based. We see evidence of this in Unions. Unions have created two-tiered sets of workers; those in the privileged set protected by The Family Union. And those outside. For example:
In academia, you have unionized fulltime faculty who do 50% of the teaching. And non-unionized contract faculty who do 50% of the teaching. The former, the unionized, do not want their benefits and pensions reduced to assist the contract faculty. They do not want their union dues to increase, to assist the contract faculty.
We see the two-tiered employee structure everywhere – The unionized, with most of their well-being coming not from their wages but from their non-taxed benefits and pensions.
This is crony socialism.
Pure Socialism doesn’t work because it has no capacity to ‘make wealth’. Socialism has no ability to ‘live in the future’. That is, every bit of surplus is distributed instantly to individuals who do not return this money to long term structures in the community. There is nothing accumulated to support the future. Without future-oriented wealth, there’s no capacity to live in the future.
Socialism doesn’t work because it rejects our caring nature, our nature to care for kin and instead, insists that everything that is instantly handed out to the whole community. But this whole community doesn’t then work together to make a future. Instead, each individual ‘does their own thing’ with this money…Result. No future for the community.
Even some Beck fans were bored/turned off when he started pushing Cloward/Piven.
Oh but wait: he’s a Mormon ex-drunk who didn’t go to college, so nobody should listen to him.
Sometimes Beck goes off the deep end (because he’s a person, and because he is buffeted with more raw info than the average person). The trouble for fans and foes alike is: knowing — really knowing — when he’s wrong and when he’s really just ahead of you, again…
I think you give them too much credit ET. Other than that, right on.
All they really want is a return to feudalism with them as the aristocracy. That’s more or less what happened in the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Japan, Iraq under Saddam, Cuba, etc. All this talk of egalitarianism and equality is smoke and mirrors.
That’s why they get crushed every time they come up against a free democracy. They can’t compete because they’ve got a 10th century model of governance.
Lefties never walk their talk, they have no intention of redistributing wealth once they take over. Redistribution is just a trick to get them in power, then WHAMMO, the real deal gets delivered. At gunpoint if history is any indicator.
That’s the primary reason I don’t like them, because I can’t stand liars.
My main point remains unaddressed: whatever your philosophy,if you buy what Beck is saying, the left has acted, the right has not.
sleeping on grates – it’s not the collapse of crony capitalism but the collapse of crony socialism that ought to concern you.
Beat me to it, ET. Crony capitalism isn’t capitalism. Nor is “state capitalism” capitalism (see: China). I like what some commenter said here a while back: capitalism is freedom, capitalism is what people do when left alone.
The banking industry is not capitalism, nor is Wall Street. Fractional reserve banking (a techncial insolvency) backstopped by government “insurance” and “too big to fail” lender-of-last resort bailouts clearly has nothing at all to do with capitalism.
I’ve come to see the Canadian Big Banks as veritable departments of government.
I also — gulp — came to see that Martin/Chretien were right to prevent bank mergers here. I was angry about it because at that point I had thought of them as capitalist enterprises. Duh.
I just saw something to the effect that Goldman Sachs just had a “perfect quarter”. I haven’t read the piece yet but I believe it means not a single daily trading loss in the quarter.
The biggest problem with capitalism is that it hasn’t been tried!
The only thing that Cloward/Piven proved is that the free markets (capitalism) are much more resilient than socialism.
Europe is a living example. Is that the type of country we want? I think not.
Grate Snoozer:
The True Right is always creating. Working. Building. Inventing.
Leftists wait till the nice new building is finished, then throw bricks through the windows and burn it. Sure, they acted. As if “acting” was an end to itself.
How about you do the RIGHT actions instead? Like building, creating, working. Not destruction.
If you don’t join the side of good, you will be sleeping on a grate in the stree…shivering. Right beside the building you torched. But hey, at least you “acted” right?
October 5 silver $22.00 oz
December 30 silver $31.00 oz
Soon you’ll be able to burn money to keep warm.
sleeping on grates – your only point seems to be that ‘the left’ is active and ‘the right’ is not active.
First, that’s trivial. You ought to be exploring the functionality of ‘what the left wants’, i.e., socialism and examining whether this socioeconomic mode will work beyond a decade. It won’t; it can’t. We’ve seen all the example of industrial states that tried that: Soviet Union, China, Cuba, etc.
It operationally doesn’t work…because a two-tiered kin-based distribution system instantly moves in…This is known as corruption and you can see it in every single instance of the socialist system.
Importantly the redistribution to individuals deprives the collective of the capacity to build future-oriented infrastructures. Socialism, aka social redistribution of the collective goods can only function in..guess what..collectives that number only about 30 members and one whose economy is no-growth and dependent. It fails, totally, in systems with larger populations where the economy must insert authoritarian long-term agendas.
As for your trivial complaint that ‘the right’ isn’t doing anything – what the heck do you think the Tea Party, Glenn Beck’s Return to Basics, the November elections etc were about? What do you think Ford’s election in Toronto was about? The same is happening elsewhere. OK?
I just read the short version of John Rawls’ philosophy. The “veil of ignorance” as a thought experiment is based solely on fear and forces the experimenter to assume that they **could** be a retarded mouth breather with no ability nor drive and then asks them to imagine a world in which they could maximize their potential outcome based on that. Of course, if one assumes the worst, that one is a heroine addicted dweller of the DTES then the best way to maximize one’s own fortunes is to make a “social contract” and parasitize those “lucky” people who are smart and productive. The veil of ignorance is a wonderful tool whereby philosophers in the proverbial towers of ivory can ignore any aspect of personal responsibility and just assume everyone has an equal chance of being a complete loser at life. Once we assume that it is totally reasonable to redistribute wealth because one **could** be that loser. Of course, the productive members of society have to just accept their curse of competence.
“My main point remains unaddressed: whatever your philosophy,if you buy what Beck is saying, the left has acted, the right has not.”
Yeah, that election thing they had in November, that was nothing. What’s that called, oh yeah: a landslide.
And that Tea Party thing? Nuthin’.
Oh, and every gun shop in the USA is still short on 5.56mm, 7.62mm, 9mm and .45 because people keep buying it all. Still nuthin’.
Meanwhile, some old Lefty writes a column in a Lefty newspaper and some unionists riot. Wowser.
As ET says, you should be a lot more concerned with the question of whether you and yours are going to survive if these Cloward-Piven saboteurs get what they want.
I’m thinking no, myself.
ET, Phantom – the events you cite are of course facts, but look to me to be too little too late.
Yas, or so you hope anyway.
Just remember what happened to Mussolini.
sleep on grates- your ‘too little, too late’ is specious.
To declare that ‘the right’, by which I presume you mean the economic mode of capitalism and its political ally, democracy, has acted against the left (socialism) ‘too little, too late’ ignores that both capitalism and democracy appeared FIRST, within the industrial phase of economic development on this planet.
Second, it ignores that the current rejection of socialism, is a continuance of the rejection of Communism and Fascism.
Your socialism, which in its industrial mode is ‘the welfare state’ can only appear LATE, i.e., AFTER capitalism has developed a robust societal infrastructure such that it can generate surplus. The non-contributors to this infrastructure, the leftists, then seek access to this surplus.
Their ignorance is revealed by this Demand, for they don’t seem to understand that an economy capable of surplus MUST invest this surplus in the future, within a future-generating infrastructure. Your socialists, on the other hand, want this surplus for themselves. Now. Right away. For themselves to spend as individuals. Now.
That’s why the societies that tried socialism failed within a few decades. The only society where no surplus is accumulated, where it is all immediately redistributed and used up NOW, is found within the hunting/gathering bands – which cannot sustain more than 30 members, and which rely on migrating to new areas for their sustenance.
No food-producing society can live without producing a future-oriented surplus which must NOT be redistributed to individuals but must be hoarded, yes, hoarded, and put into long-term societal infrastructures.
In agricultural societies, that means that the cattle herd is not split up among ten sons, but goes intact to the eldest son who is charged with the well-being of the kin-group. In industrial societies this means that the surplus is moved into private factories and small businesses, and into roads, hospitals, defense and research foundations.
We should explore the moral foundations of capitalism and socialism – and there are moral concerns with both. I consider socialism amoral because it focuses on current desires and totally completely ignores the future. Check out Obama’s agenda; it’s all about the ‘now’ and ignores the trillions in debt for the future.
Capitalism is a longterm economic mode. It links the current individual to the past and to the future. I consider therefore, that it is moral, because its concerns extend beyond the well-being of the ‘now’.
And of course, we cannot ignore that socialism in large population never, ever functions in a pure form. It always moves into crony socialism and sets up a two-tiered population, with the masses ruled over by the small self-styled elite.
“Their ignorance is revealed by this Demand, for they don’t seem to understand that an economy capable of surplus MUST invest this surplus in the future, within a future-generating infrastructure. Your socialists, on the other hand, want this surplus for themselves. Now. Right away. For themselves to spend as individuals. Now.”
Another way to put this is to say that socialists somehow miraculously believe in the transparently childish fallacy of zero-sum economics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum#Economics
If the zero sum fallacy were accurate, the entire wealth of the human species would consist of some beads, some skins, a few stone tools, a fire we can’t ever let go out (or we’re scr*wed) and this nice damp cave we stole from that bear. Actually, we wouldn’t even have made it that far.
Every major “Liberal” city, state, and country in the world is failing economically and socially.
Detroit, California, the Netherlands are examples for each category listed above.
They prove the failure of progressive policies for the average world citizen, and expose the raping of western society and indeed the third world by the “super rich” and powerful.
The average everyday “progressive” is a mindless useful idiot who has bought into the propaganda of a one world globalist utopia. They are the useful idiots because they cannot rationalize beyond their passions which are buttons are being pushed by the corporate dictatorships that hold the reigns of power.
You the progressive were hand picked by people much, much smarter and more logical than you to be fed the propaganda targeted towards your emotions. With emotional rationality you have fought bitterly to enslave the “minority” peoples of western society and third world countries with welfare dependence, drug addiction, and poverty.
You have in turn helped flood western society with countless millions of racially segregated poor and uneducated peoples to create future economic failure and violent conflicts.
You the progressive have no voice anymore to the average rational person. That is why you push so hard for censorship of rational idea’s on every level of media and public forum.
Which is why you troll.
Black Mamba, that’s the best description of zero sum economics that I’ve ever seen. Might even be simple enough to be understood by socialists.
What I can’t understand is why what is essentially an attack on freedom isn’t being dealt with by Homeland Security who instead concentrate on Tea Party members and other “extremists” whose only extremism is insisting that politicians live by the US constitution.
If organized disorder erupts in the US, then I doubt very much that the statists and their “downtrodden” useful idiots will be on the winning side as not only are individualists armed, most of the ex-military happen to believe in the US constitution.
I have to take issue with some of ET’s comments tonight. Four items, first two at 10:51 a.m. and last two at 3:46 p.m.:
“Socialism rejects the familial nurturance and instead, focuses only on the individual! I bet you never thought of that. But socialism operates by taking the whole pool of money, from those who work, and giving it all away to individuals. Who spend it as individuals. Not as a collective.”
“Socialism doesn’t work because it rejects our caring nature, our nature to care for kin and instead, insists that everything that is instantly handed out to the whole community. But this whole community doesn’t then work together to make a future. Instead, each individual ‘does their own thing’ with this money…Result. No future for the community.”
“No food-producing society can live without producing a future-oriented surplus which must NOT be redistributed to individuals but must be hoarded, yes, hoarded, and put into long-term societal infrastructures.”
“In industrial societies this means that the surplus is moved into private factories and small businesses, and into roads, hospitals, defense and research foundations.”
Socialism does not focus on the individual, it turns all resources over to the “collective” or state. That it may redistribute some of it is mostly irrelevant. Under capitalism, individuals get to spend (or save) most of their resources as individuals. The state does a few things, in keeping with its proper function of protecting individual rights.
The “whole community” cannot “work together to make a future”. Capitalism is precisely each individual “doing his own thing” with his own money, and making his own individual future.
It’s true that unconsumed production, or savings, is what enables future production and a rising standard of living. But the surplus is not “moved into” private factories etc. – that’s where it originates, with productive individuals.
Finally, socialism always uses the phony language of collectivism and caring, and strongly criticizes individualism and self-interest, both of which its advocates loathe because there is no political power available when they are respected.
It’s true, though, that cronyism is more or less part of human nature. Under capitalism, those who practice it risk their own resources alone.
nv53>
Good points.
Our current system is designed to punish the savers, and reward the spenders.
When the spenders gamble away their money on lifestyles they can’t and never could afford, the “liberal” bleeding hearts expect the savers to pay up.
PS: There’s always room to take issue with ET’s comments. Most are well said, but it’s my belief that ET is a closet lefty in denial. Not a full blown drunk mind you, just someone who doesn’t realize that they have a drinking problem, i.e. liberal tendencies, shoosh 😉 ….IMO.
nv53 – I don’t think you understand my comments.
Socialism, which is a collectivist economic mode, does not promote individual entrepreneurship. But it distributes the ‘pool’ to individuals, who then spend this money on current uses. These individuals don’t, as a group of investors, build factories etc. What gets distributed by the socialist state is..individual wages and supplments. The socialist state doesn’t enable a group of investors to develop industries. Socialism thus spends money ‘now’ and doesn’t develop a long term economic infrastructure.
The whole community does work together to make a future – whether it be in developing private factories, educating their children. You misunderstand my point. I’m not saying that the community all do the same thing (same factory!) but that the whole community works towards a future for their families and does not rely on The State to Develop that future.
The surplus IS moved into private factories; people invest, together, and set up new private factories.
Agreed – in capitalism, risk-taking is important and it affects only those private investors. Socialism, since it takes its funds from all individuals, risks their well-being.
Knight99 – well, that’s your opinion. Enjoy it.
“……Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and chance the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution.
-Saul Alinsky, in the prologue to “Rules for Radicals.”
Not a new idea. Never let a crisis go to waste. And manufacture the crisis if one doesn’t present itself.
ET means under socialism your taxes go to the “poor” who spend it all on beer, bingo and flat screen TVs.
Meanwhile you can’t save anything because your taxes are ~50% of your income.
In capitalist free societies (like Canada up to about 1965) the “poor” are taken care of by private charities, which consume at most 10% of a very generous person’s income, while taxes consume maybe another 10%.
Three guesses which economy booms bigger and harder.
ET,
I think it’s fair to say that each individual within a community works toward a future for himself and his own family. But it clouds the issue unnecessarily to think of a community “working together”.