47 Replies to “No Con Census”

  2. Can’t get too worked up about the Census issue, they know enough about us as it is. It was like polymer vs cotton, either way it never stayed with me long enough to disintegrate anyway

  3. We received the long form one time. Sent it back with lots of blanks. They said we had to complete it. I said we did not, was unable – census challenged or something to that effect. They said I could be imprisoned. I said nope. Never heard from them again. (Other than short form in subsequent census years.)

  6. I have been to Australia a few times and love there currency. It is very durable with each denomination a different size. You can wash it in your pockets and no prob.
    I think we should also follow Australia with getting rid of the darn penny. Lots of money to be saved on both counts.

  8. Same here ron….got the large book census….sent it back without one question answered…they threatened me too…told them basically to f&**off…never heard another word…and maybe I got lucky…no small census forms for 10 yrs!!

  9. Disagree goodomens. “They” don’t know squat. That’s why I resent this intrusion of the honest and law abiding. There are currently ~30,000 illegals in the country. More Health Care cards than registered citizens. Why not use the money to hunt down illegal aliens and eject them. Or at least eject the ones that have been ordered out of the Country.

  10. Liberals seem aghast that a Canadian government would give back one of its myriad powers. Their spokespeople scoff at the idea that people could be jailed for not complying with the “requirement” that the long form be filled out. Yet that’s exactly what the legal penalty specifies.
    The Libs and NDP seem to think we should all be excited about filling out the long form, yet they don’t want to go to a system of a voluntary submission that might bring in many more of these forms, if they are so “on target” about the widespread desire to fill one out.
    I’ll bet that prominent Liberals would turn their noses up at filling the forms out, after all, they value their time. But we, the little people, should be thrilled to tell all to the wise and beneficent state. I can’t wait to give them my information, can you?

  11. I lived on an acreage for many years. When they delivered the forms, I would leave a note in the window, “Moved to new location.” They automatically assume that yoou will fill the forms at your new house. Don’t leave the sign there too long, it’s an invitation to a break in.

  12. I lived on an acreage for many years. When they delivered the forms, I would leave a note in the window, “Moved to new location.” They automatically assume that yoou will fill the forms at your new house. Don’t leave the sign there too long, it’s an invitation to a break in.

  13. I think the hostile reaction from the media speaks volumes to this subject…I know… the media are always hostile to anything the Conservative Government does… but it seems to me that the only time the MSM get all snotty, self-righteous, indignant, and openly hostile is when they feel the Trudeaupian empire is under some kind of threat. Clearly, the census information is used by the czars of social engineering schemes, the bureaucratic left overs from the “Just Society” BS. Many of the most powerful and favoured special interest groups and tribes are subsidized by the taxpayer, and this information is used to help empower these groups (tribes) and weaken the power of the individual. I’ve had problems with these interventionist enumerators before, coming to my door demanding to know what colour my tongue is, or some such ridiculous nonsense. I treated them accordingly (as rudely, and defiantly as possible) and eventually they left me the hell alone, but I did feel it was an intrusion of my privacy. I mean this seems more about control and surveillance of the population then anything else, like some “Just Society” Big Brother. I don’t think it’s too much to ask the State to leave me alone, and that my private information belongs to me, not the Government. The Government is supposed to work for us, not the other way around.

  14. I love the privacy commissioner’s response to all of this — “we’re very careful with the data; it’s not going to get out!” The mental disconnect is astonishing…It’s not that I worry you’ll divulge the data to some unauthorized person, it’s that I don’t want YOU to have the data at all!
    I haven’t been around long enough to answer many censuses, so haven’t received a long form. I find it hard to believe that anyone would answer those intrusive questions honestly, though.
    How do I get to work? Horse. How many bedrooms? Sixteen. What do you mean you don’t believe me?

  15. The census is to take stock of how many people live in a country, period. Everything after that is a bonus for the bureaucracy – i.e. reason to hire more permanent staff and higher pay for “managers”.
    If organisations want the additional info they can go and get it elsewhere: banks, CRA, large retailers, Canada Post, etc. We don’t really need another source for this.
    But the cue for the media and the opposition to start complaining was when the Francophone groups claimed they would “affected” because the short census form did not adequately “reflect” the extent of their presence in Canada.
    Yawn, we’ve heard that before. More stats needed to justify sending money to them.

  16. I think a key problem is the government’s (and that was the Liberal govt) insistence that filling in the form was mandatory. A government has no right to mandate its request for statistical information.
    Then, there is also the problem of the questions. If I recall one question – it merged ‘race’ (a term I reject anyway, but…) with national origin and ethnicity. Other questions are equally unanswerable – for example, the one on ‘how many bedrooms’ ignores that many people merge the use of rooms and don’t have ‘single-use’ rooms. Is the census seeking to determine a building code, which does define space in a unique manner, or use – which can reject single-use rooms.
    And surely a scientific survey wouldn’t use just one data source. You wouldn’t rely just on a self-administered questionnaire for ‘travel to work’ information. You’d also want data from the transit systems, road systems etc.
    As for privacy – there’s no such thing. Of course the data gets out, even via hackers, ‘stolen files’ and all the post hoc apologies are not relevant.
    I do accept the need for statistics but I think that self-administered data bases are not reliable.

  17. As someone that has gotten stuck filling out the long form and the agriculture census in the friggin’ summer!!! I wish they would scale way back on the bean counting.
    On the agriculture forms you have to account for every animal, piece of equipment, crop and more.
    I like the idea of the “MOVED” sign in the window…

  18. Been around awhile and have never received a long form. And without my information, I can’t see how they can possibly have proper statistics. No wonder no one caters to a brown haired, mother of 3 20somethings living in the basement, with 3 bedrooms and a husband that snores.

  19. Just “make it up” how do I get to work? horse of course. how many people in the bedrooms? 5 on a good weekend… how many socks do I own? 109…
    serious. why would anyone tell these people the real information? I doubt they’ll keep it secure, and I doubt their motives. If they doubt how I get to work, let’s call it even.

  20. In the past week I listened to a group of colleagues abusing the government for its new policy on the census, complaining that it would damage the ability of government and other bodies to make social policy; later in the same day, I heard the same people mocking the local school and the the ministry of education for their commitment to “data-driven decision making”.

  21. Those of you who won’t fill census forms, I assume you don’t file tax returns either (you don’t have to). Otherwise ‘they’ still know all about you.

  22. GreenNeck, you assume too much. Hey, on the farm census I even included the rabbits and deers that roamed around, but ommitted the cattle and hogs we had.
    Just listening to the excuses for the mandatory form, hey a bank needs the info to decide if a new branch is needed, or a council needs the info to decide if a new bus route is needed. How stupid does David McKay think we are.
    Also been threatened with jail and fines, and asked the lady how she knew we had not answered some questions-and why she opened it.
    I have to wonder why the libs want the mandatory form kept, what plans do they have for the info should they get back at the trough.
    I suggest a new question for the next census, on both long and short forms-do you agree with the govt funding the CBC.

  23. Only a Liberal or Dipper would feel the need to know what colour of gotch people wear.

  24. GreenNeck, how utterly predictable a response from you.
    Lemme lay this out for you: in a free country, the government is not entitled to know how you get to work in the morning, how many rooms in your house, what the mileage on your car is, what your religion is, or any of it.
    The intended purpose of the Census is -enumeration-, the counting of the citizens for proper representation in Parliament. That’s IT. Nothing else.
    What you suggest is that us ingrates should shut up and fill out the form, in the hope that our betters will use the information to further improve our lot in life with wonderful new government programs, closely tailored to our needs with this vital information.
    I think Harper has just taken a big step toward redeeming himself for his G-20 blunder. By merely suggesting the form be made -voluntary-, he’s identified every anti-freedom statist in the country. Many of whom were masquerading as conservatives, apparently.
    The argument is that making the form voluntary introduces a self-selection error. Which is true, it does. My question to you is this: do you think a known self-selection error in a census is worth removing both my right to privacy and my right to chose to cooperate or not?
    Personally I think that given the uses past census information has been put to, namely increased taxes and increased regulation of everything in life, it is not in my best interests as an individual to cooperate. Nor is it in the best interest of my society that I cooperate.
    I think it best at this time that every Canadian just stop cooperating with our government, on every single issue other than sewage, water and national defense. The census is an excellent place to stop cooperating, because it strikes right to the heart of the mandarin controlled bureaucracy.
    Stephen Harper is a fricking genius.

  25. This is a classic case of The Government Class vs. The People.
    The Government Class see themselves as the rulers and The People as their subjects.
    The Government Class see The People as property that belongs to them.
    Just like your privacy.

  26. Poor leftards they need the stats on race and ethnic origin to tally their prospective votes during an election, personally if MSM gets hysterical then I’m all for canceling the long form census. Nothing lightens the load like a morning coffee and slime stream media screeching in outrage, fact is the long form is a violation of our privacy rights. As for the assertion that they are careful with our personal information sure yea okay remmber what Canada Post did with our private information didn’t they sell it for profit?

  27. The government is never going to punish people for refusing to fill out the long form census. It is not as if refusing to divulge personal info to complete strangers is dangerous to the public interest (unlike farmers bypassing CWB to sell their wheat) Making the detailed census form voluntary merely formalizes the unofficial policy.
    In any case, I’d bet the voluntary program yields better results. As shown above, people who are forced to fill out the form will give bogus answers. OTOH, people who are gung-ho about pleasing the government (most Canadians, IMO) will fill out the form honestly and correctly. As a bonus, less time and money will be spent having census workers chase around those who are conscientious objectors to government intrusion.
    Personally, the less info the government has to help build expensive new social policies…the better.

  28. Was checking the headlines at NNDubya. Swarms of articals on this goofy issue and i’m thinking OK but how about an actual news story to while the time away.
    Indeed polymer vs cotton – i perfers boxers myself.

  29. Pretty obvious that there is a class of people in every country, no matter what the politics, that make their living from those they administer to.
    Instruments like the census are simply tools that justify their various functions and provide mana for their continuing existance.
    The true irony is that democracy has morphed into a process of appealing to the ‘weakest link’. Rather than taking their responsibility to their country seriously the vast majority of citizens simply ask ‘What’s in it for me?’

  30. Can’t imagine anyone being upset over demise of census forms. I have a long history of refusing to fill in census forms and the first mandatory form that I was threatened with jail time for not filling out about 30 years ago had answers which were totally made up when my girlfriend insisted I do it. Even then just returning the form was all that was wanted and I’m curious how many other 250 year old people back then used transfer booths to get to work and had 54 bathrooms in their house.
    Another census form was completed using hexadecimal codes of a non-standard Cyrillic character set (the answers were in Ukrainian). I felt ignored when no-one came after me regarding the unfilled forms from the last census which I found in my closet when I moved from Vancouver. For some reason the census department keeps sending me the long forms. In talking with other people who have recieved the census forms, I haven’t found anyone who answers truthfully. At least the Conservative government is realistic enough to realize that there’s not much point in performing statistical analysis of garbage; best not to collect the garbage in the first place.

  31. “F6. Is this dwelling in need of any repairs?”
    I’ve never heard of a house that didn’t need some type of repair. It might be minor, such as a leaky tap, or the roof might be caving in, but they all need something repaired. That’s what honey-do lists are for. And it’s none of their business.

  32. 1) I agree you get better data if everyone who gets sent the questionaire answers it.
    2) You also get the right data if you answer it honestly, which I believe you are apparently compelled to do.
    3) Nobody checks up on your answers, and doing so would probably be seen to be an unseemly intrusion by Canadians
    4) It is clear that even if one of these stories, be it Kinsella’s or any of a number of them here, mean that the long form hasnt been enforced….ever….therefore the data is already “compromised” such as it is.
    5) While I would fill out the long form, I dont have these concerns but it is a personal choice and I like the idea of accurate data, I think that it is clear that we havent been pristine for some time….let the paranoid and the cant be bothered alone, perfection is the enemy of the good.

  33. I’ve had the long form. I answered the questions I felt the government required and not the ones I didn’t. Got the call and the threat. I replied I never thought they had the legal right to ask the questions I did not answer but a judge would convince me. Never heard back.

  34. What is wrong with going with a 10 question Census form like the United States just went to. I don’t think anyone would complain about answering 10 quick questions. It would go a long way to get rid out the overly intrusive short census forms let along the poor soles that get the long ones here. I won’t even get into the long ones a farmer can get.

  35. Only in Canada……can you get tossed in the slammer for refusing to be interrogated by the bureaucracy but on the other hand, a mass child murderer can collect CPP.
    The long census form is a horribly intrusive document. It belongs in the shredder.
    And now here is an interesting question…..if the long census form really is entirely confidential and private, how would they ever know if the answers provided were accurate or not…unless they checked….and how could they do that if it were confidential and private?
    One more thing. If you have ever seen a Stats Canada Atlas (not the web-based one, but the one in print), you will soon see that they are an excellent source of information for B&E artists. You can quickly determine the relative income levels in an area along with the number of people in the houses (fewer people, better chance someone isn’t home)….all kinds of information.

  36. Custom,
    Most Canadians get the short form.
    This whole debate needs to be boiled down to its essence. It is clear that the long form, despite the explicit threat, has been voluntary for sometime. Most Canadians, i suspect would be like me and answer the questions.
    Its always easy for a government dept to default to compulsion….but the goal is to gather info, and short of asking everyone you are taking a sample, and given the lack of enforcement it is a voluntary sample. My initial reaction was why make the change, people should answer the questions. But the data is already voluntary, it is a distinction without a difference, so on a rethink, a larger sample size to capture more people seems to make sense. So after thinking about it, this is a major non issue, solely a partisan one.
    There is measurement error and lying in the existing data. Stats Can knows this, despite what some of the more partisan commentators are saying. So I urge those in Stats Can to explain how they already deal with data wobble even with compulsion embedded in the law…yet unenforced.
    Or do they actually believe they have a completely accurate count already?

  37. Stephen, I take it you have never seen the long agricultural form. If anyone owning any other business in Canada had to fill out a form like that it would end in a big hurry.
    The US 10 questions in 10 minutes is the way to go for every Canadian. Not single out certain industries/people.

  38. The impact of the census is clearly shown by the eagerness that ACORN demonstrated in securing the census contract…..it wasn’t just about cash-flow.
    I fondly remember the old saw—“The word NO is the best contraceptive.”
    It is remarkable how well just saying NO works in so many situations……just ask any kid…..

  39. Joey,
    Once you fill out the census questionnaire the lowly door-to-door census worker checks the forms. The ones with all of the questions answered goes into one “done” box and the ones with missing answers goes into the “contact” pile. The workers only skim the pages to look for filled in lines and circles. Perhaps some lonely, twisted census workers might snoop but the volume of forms is huge so, IMO, very few would waste their time doing so. To check for accuracy of the answers, government workers would have to cross-check against other records. I could be wrong but I don’t think they are allowed to do this.

  40. custom,
    Nope never seen it, and it sounds like I am lucky to not have come across it.
    But thats what compulsion does, it means the form and questions serve only the questioner without any regard to the questionee.
    I say make it voluntary and then StatsCan might worry a little more about extracting its info the right way

  41. Phantom:
    You assumed a lot from my comment. I never suggested you fill census long forms. You don’t want to cooperate? Then don’t.
    Stephen Harper gave you a bit of your freedom back. Good. But for me, I never waited for any politician to ‘give me freedom’. Freedom is something you take and defend.

  42. Hmm. A woman strangles her daughter to death and gets probation. Ordinary citizens are threatened with jail time for not filling out a form. Is this justice?

  43. Sure thing GreenNeck. Let me know how that works out for you when they come to haul you off for not filling out whatever mandatory crap you drew the line at.
    Reality calling, you live in a police state and if the G-20 didn’t drive that home for you, nothing short of actual jail will.
    Stephen Harper’s JOB is to get my freedom back, every little victory is worth celebrating.

  44. What are all the Tory bloggers going to say when the government changes it’s mind on this, as they will given that business is opposed to the voluntary long form.
    This is the same scenario the country went through a quarter century ago when the Mulroney Govt said they would cancel the 1986 Census. There were lusty cheers from all the remote right Ayn Rand readers, … then a dead silence when the decision was reversed.
    Once the PMO realized it was business on the phone and that they weren’t kidding, the music changed pretty damned quickly. And it will this time too. Guaranteed.

  45. I’m not sure if harper does things like this by design or not, but its sure brilliant. Go ask 10 people in the pub friday night if they are worried about the long-form census being changed and see the reaction you get (blank stares). Oh the media has its finger on the pulse of the nation!!

  46. When this story first came out I noticed that the czar of the language police, ex Toronto Star propagandist Fraser said he was going to “investigate”… whatever that means… is that like when the language gestapo were going to “investigate” remarks made by Don Cherry… Great campaign slogans for the Librano$ and the NDP in the next election though… Vote for us, and we’ll put you in jail

  47. Much comment in the Toronto Sun today on the census issue, including this nonsense from Mindelle Jacobs that leads off with “What a bunch of selfish, short-sighted, ignorant whiners!”
    Link: http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/mindelle_jacobs/2010/07/19/14760211.html
    She lets the cat out of the bag here: “Statisticians and policymakers are interested in the collective big picture to build a better society. … The ignorant hordes and the pie-in-the-sky libertarians probably think Canada will zoom smoothly into the future without a mandatory questionnaire. But without a wealth of data, how are we supposed to effectively manage long-term planning in everything from housing and education to immigrant settlement and transportation?”
    Politicians have been promising “a better future” for decades, but all they ever seem to do is hinder economic production and depress our incomes. “We” are not supposed to manage long-term planning in any of these matters; they should be left to individual choice and the free market. The people who want the mandatory long-form census data are the social engineers whose jobs would be in jeopardy without it, and the politicians who like nothing more than spending other people’s money to buy votes. So yes, these in fact are the “selfish, short-sighted, ignorant whiners” on display.
    Some have pointed out that businessmen also use the data for their own purposes. So let them pay for it themselves by hiring a polling firm to get it. There are a lot of polls on various issues floating about in which inquiries of 1,000 Canadians are considered adequate, with results accurate to within 2 percentage points 95% of the time (or whatever the disclaimer, which is derived from statistical mathematics). No mandatory data collection necessary.
    Meanwhile, lightweight columnists like Tabatha Southey in the Globe (last Saturday) wonder why, if we give so much information to businesses we deal with, do we object to giving similar info to government. The answer is: because we deal voluntarily with these businesses, and there is competition among them for our money. Government however has a monopoly on coercion.
    A standard leftist trick is to blur the distinction between the voluntary and the coerced, such as when they call lotteries “a tax on the poor” or when Jack Layton and/or Olivia Chow referred to the annoying squeegee kids in Ontario as “entrepreneurs”.

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