They’ve been lying at our feet for thousands of years, yet the average dog has a better understanding of English than the average Englishman has of Dog.
They hear “sit, stay, down, stand, come, fetch, outside, car ride, walk, cookie, toy, cat, sic em. Good dog!”
We hear “bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark. Bark? “
Our track record in communicating with other species isn’t exactly stellar.
Nonetheless, world leaders who can’t pronounce “Ahmadinejad” (much less solve him), insist on blasting “come git me!” cards into space.
I suppose there’s comfort in the notion that an alien intelligence with the technology to zoom across the vast distances between star systems would be equally progressive in their approach to foreign ecosystems and their cultures. We can hope so, anyway. It’s not like we can do much about it now – the invitations have been sent.
Still, when I look at this and then rotate it counter-clockwise by 90 degrees….
Where are they? Someone has to be first. 60 years of seti with no cigar.
Besides as a Christian I don’t only believe Jesus redeemed mankind but the creation as well. the Cosmos groans for the day He returns where told.
Frankly it doesn’t matter if their are Aliens. I’m sure God deals with all people in all ages. He’s beyond Time or any restraints since He made them.
JMO
Hawking is dealing in mathematics (probability)
some in here fail to grasp that fact
“60 years of seti with no cigar.”
I read an opinion somewhere that speculted that
any civilizations are instinctively smart enough to remain silent. One would only attract the dangerous element once.
The “Independance Day” scenario may be the exception but the consequences would be fatal.
A critter in a trap remains quiet….survival depends on it. The old mountain men were extremely careful to hide their existance….only shooting once, careful of smoke, and concealing the glow of a fire….to keep their hair.
It is perhaps wishful thinking that FLT is possible and the vastness of space…makes visitors unlikely. It is insanity to assume any visitors would be benigh not competetive and rapacious…..the latter is more likely.
Slavery could be the best fate expected—-more likely…..LUNCH…fresh meat…after a long trip….or vermin infesting promising resources.
There’s a French scientist who belives that it’s virtually impossible that an alien society superior to ours would have survived. Why?? Simply because, if they are superior to us, they also have superior weapons–they most likely have destroyed themselves by now.
Sad isn’t it?? It is possible that civilizations reach a maximum IQ–then whamo–it’s over! I just hope they saved their work on DVD!!
There’s life miles under the earth that synthecize what they need, and sulphur based lifeforms and xtremeophiles that thrive in boiling water..!! A lifeform could develop with a lifespan of a 1000yrs and travel at .7C to reach us
I said:
“ET said: (I’m paraphrasing)
The universe is filled with stuff, so much stuff that it uncountable and, therefore, it is improbable that life does not exist elsewhere.
Of course, there are no numbers.”
You said:
“victor – sorry for my black hole brain, but I don’t understand your point.
I didn’t say the universe is filled with numbers”
What I was trying to get at ET, was that you were dealing in generalities about the amount of stuff in the universe and didn’t provide any numbers about how much stuff there is that “God” or “The Forces Of Nature” have had to work with.
Further, you did not provide any number about the amount of “lottery tickets” there are.
Without these two numbers, any talk about the chances of any event occurring is without foundation.
FYI, the first number: the number of particles in the universe, is 10^80 – give or take. I won’t give a references for this as the number is well known.
The second number is (was) hard to come by. I will give you the number of the maximum number of events possible since the Big Bang (10^140) – give or take. But I won’t tell how I came up with it, in a public forum.
However, I will tell you how I did come up with it, privately. Write me at viktorsilo@gmail.com. That’s viktor not victor.
Okay, if TV signals travel faster than Voyager, that means somewhere out there, a long time from now, another form of life may get to see the movie Avatar.
And then if they find Voyager, they will be mighty displeased that we aren’t really blue, and our naughty bits aren’t as pronounced and functional.
Sort of like unwrapping that Christmas present and finding a sweater instead of the Daisy Red Ryder BB gun.
viktor – no need to take this offline, but thanks for the offer.
I didn’t say that the matter was ‘uncountable’. Counting particles/atoms is not relevant to my point. Counting [lottery] winners is not relevant.
My point is only that that same matter or those particles must be organized to prevent entropic dissipation to a lower morphology. Therefore, whether the amount of lowest-form of organized matter, i.e., let’s say a hydrogen atom, is assumed to be 8 x 10^79, my point is that it has to be formed into more complex modes to prevent entropic dissipation.
These more complex morphologies could develop for the sake of energy-to-matter stability [or all matter would collapse to a black hole].
So my hypothesis has nothing to do with the amount of actual morphological matter but with the necessity for its formation into such a state and then, the necessity for it forming even more complex forms, to prevent the domination of entropy.
ET – “But to declare, as do the Rare Earth proponents that the requirements for ‘life’ are so complex that it could only happen once is a hypothesis and unproven. All it does is describe THIS planet and its life forms.”
No, the Rare Earth idea describes the universe, and how unlikely a planet like ours is.
ET – ” But if we accept that our universe is made up of certain chemicals, and that these operate according to basic laws against entropic dissipation, then we must acknowledge that matter must evolve into more complex morphologies. And not just in one site in the universe.”
This is true, but we must also acknowledge that the laws of physics do not differ according to their location in the universe, and that something that is shown to be impossible here is impossible everywhere. The assembly of prebiotic chemicals as precursers to life have been shown to be impossible. As well, the transfer of such chemicals through space can’t happen. One must then conclude that what can’t happen here, can’t happen anywhere.
ET – ” This also suggests an entirely natural cause of the emergence of life. Are you suggesting a metaphysical cause? What evidence do you have?”
The suggestion of an entirely natural emergence of life is an assumption based on assuptions of the natural formation of prebiotic chemicals and the building blocks of life. What evidence do you have that this can take place? What are the pathways that such a process would follow? I could give you all kinds of suggestions that scientists have explored for decades in the search for the natural origin of life, and the reasons they fail. Can you give me any that work?
Viktor,..Gore/Mann need you NOW…They are looking for those numbers everyone knows!
Frenchie77, Gore just needs to be recycled…a NJ Wood chipper into the pet food chain..Dogs will eat shit if its chewy!
The NJ plaque would have had these three things
1. The Budweiser Recipe
2. The Cheese Steak Hoagie Recipe
3. The Playboy centerfold
If the suckers don’t understand that.. Why would we care….
dirtman – sorry, but I’ll continue to disagree. I don’t accept the Rare Earth hypothesis as anything other than a description of THIS planet.
Agreed, the laws of physics (and chemistry) operate as norms everywhere in the universe. I don’t agree with your conclusion that prebiotic morphologies cannot transform into biotic morphologies. I know that it hasn’t, as a hypothesis, been disproven or proven. But abiogenesis, moving from the simplest molecules at oceanic hot vents to the suggested protobionts to prokaryotes to the eukaryotic cells seems to be a plausible path based on reason and the evidence so far.
I can’t accept a metaphysical agency in the formation of life, for that is, to me, a step in a magical or mythic path and obviously can’t be proven or disproven by any evidence!
“Hawking is dealing in mathematics (probability)
some in here fail to grasp that fact”
Yes GYM and others amongst us look at all the factors we know (without counting all we don’t know)about developing and enabling life and deal in mathematical improbability.
Dirtman
[…..The assembly of prebiotic chemicals as precursers to life have been shown to be impossible. As well, the transfer of such chemicals through space can’t happen. One must then conclude that what can’t happen here, can’t happen anywhere.]
Really!!! Amino acids have been found in cometary debris and meteorites….didn’t you get the memo.
Then Mad Cow Disease(BSE) really publicized the existance of Preons—-non living self replicating proteins…..
Amino acids have been found in cometary debris and meteorites….
And what’s more sasquatch believes in AGW!!!!
joe – it happens to be a fact.
“The Stardust research team at Goddard includes Drs. Brownlee of the University of Washington and Elsila, Glavin, Dworkin, of Goddard Space Center, NASA. They believe that the foil and aerogel results suggest that much of the Stardust’s comet-exposed side and the collection grid was coated by glycine that was formed in space.
It is important to remember that glycine is only one of the 20 natural amino acids. No other amino acids have been discovered in the comet material as of this time.
Active proteins and enzymes from living cells contain many, or all of the 20 known amino acids. So, although this was an exciting and interesting comet study and find of glycine, important questions arise. Can other, more complex amino acids be detected? Is there any evidence of prokaryotic life somewhere in the vastness of space? How and where can science best explore and sample for life next?
Scientists and all are left to wonder. Many feel that planet earth’s life forms are not the only ones, and that in other galaxies and planets far away there is life. ”
http://scientificinquiry.suite101.com/article.cfm/comet_tail_with_glycine_amino_acid_amazes_all
Of course, this is being used as a premise to suggest that life began not on this planet but in space and appeared here via asteroid collision. I’m still, however, open to the abiotic to biotic morphological transformation. After all, such would have had to happen elsewhere.
I just came to see the naked ladies.
If it comes to the point we make it to where we are like Star Trek, then I think we – Earth, would end up being more like the Klingons.
“They believe that the foil and aerogel results suggest that much of the Stardust’s comet-exposed side and the collection grid was coated by glycine that was formed in space”.
Et tu ET?
“They believe” doesn’t prove it as fact. I wouldn’t doubt that Mann once believed in his folly. I tend to discount the ‘science’ of agendized scientists that are looking for government funding.
Not to mention the “organic chemical” glycine is a very very very long way from life. As I said previously, life is more than a bunch of amino acids bumping together.
So you believe, Joe, if I’m not misbelieving.
It’s truly amazing how much we know about everything with a sample set of exactly one … well, that and a plethora of eggheads.
so far the only solution to the Drake equation that can be proven is.
N= 1.0
@Revnant Dream – I’m with you on this one, and I would add that creation and the cosmos have been groaning much more frequently and deeply lately.
ET,
Deep sea hydrothermal vents are considered as prime candidates for prebiotic molecule synthesis and lifes origin. That may be because these vents are the only places on Earth with the necesary hydrogen rich and (hopefully) oxygen free chemical environments to facilitate the production of amino acids and/or nucleotide molecules which are the building blocks of proteins, DNA and RNA. Lab experiments indicate that they can form under those conditions. However, at 350 degrees C amino acid half-life in water is only a few minutes and at 250C the half-life of sugars is mere seconds. For a nucleobase to function as a building block for DNA or RNA it must be joined to a sugar. For polypetides the half life is between a few minutes to a few hours, and RNA molecules will hydrolize within minutes at 250C, seconds at 350C. In other words, the very same vent conditions that can produce amino acids and nucleotides will destroy them faster than build them.
Also, with the current density of hydrothermal vents in the worlds oceans, all water will circulate through them within 10 million years. The density 3.8 billion years ago when life first occured was much greater, meaning that the oceans waters would circulate through them in much shorter time, meaning that not only do hydrothermal vents destroy prebiotic chemicals that they make, they also destoy any such molecules that may have formed elsewhere in the oceans.
sasquatch, joe and ET,
Amino acids in proteins must be left handed (except for glycine) and the sugars in DNA and RNA have right handed configurations. Non-biological produce them in equal proportions of left and right handedness (racemic) but in order to form proteins, DNA and RNA homochirality (one-handedness) must already exist. So no matter if the amino acids and sugars are formed on earth or come from space, without homchirality, proteins, DNA and RNA cannot form. Except for a small amount of single-handed molecules (thought to be from terresterial contamination) those found on meteorites were racemic, and therefore (other than glycine) unsuitable for life.
The point of my “Life is more than a bunch of amino acids bumping into each other” theme comes from one simple observation. DEATH! I saw a dead rabbit on the road the other day all of its constituent chemicals were present. All of its constituent chemicals were in their proper place. The rabbit body did not contain life. If life were simply a bunch of amino acids bumping into each other the rabbit would not have been DEAD. What’s more there isn’t one scientist anywhere on the planet that could bring that rabbit back to life! It is impossible for us to reanimate even the simplest life forms because we don’t know what LIFE is.
“What’s more there isn’t one scientist anywhere on the planet that could bring that rabbit back to life!”
Frodrick Fronkensteen could.
“The NJ plaque would have had these three things
1. The Budweiser Recipe
2. The Cheese Steak Hoagie Recipe
3. The Playboy centerfold”
I think I know what I’m having for lunch today…
By the way always thought this engraving looked like two Californian beach bums.
Joe
I didn’t “make your point” because you don’t know what I believe. Furthermore, I’d suggest your argument is ingenuous since you have managed to engage in a lengthy and entertaining conversation with one of SDA’s resident Athiests ET.
I was simply demonstrating that your belief –IMO- is just as restrictive(and should be) as those that you criticize. Personally, I think I am an ideal person to discuss these matters with because I am undecided, and open to discussion on the topic. Your belief system demands that you are correct and everyone else is wrong. I can deal with that, because if you’re right, you’re right!
In the end, your observation regarding Atheists is correct, but I’d add to it Christians (and others) because there is nothing anyone can say, or demonstrate to move you from your inflexible position.
Slap Shot
Doesn’t BEER in itself proove there is a gawd?
Actually Indiana Homez your position is every bit as ‘constraining’ as everyone else’s. You can’t slip past to parameters you have laid down or else you wouldn’t maintain your position. The fact is that we all build our world view to match our faith. The atheist no less than the agnostic no less than the theist. An atheist will glom onto any tidbit of information he/she believes supports his/her world view just as rabidly as any fundamentalist theist holds on to their own “proofs”. The agnostic believing it wisest not to decide equally holds to his/her proofs just as tenaciously.
I prefer to make a decision based on the evidence not simply waste my time ignoring it by studying it to death. When all the evidence I saw was pointing to the ‘There is no God” camp I believed there was no God. Once I uncovered enough evidence indicating that there indeed was a God I switched sides.
The problem I had was that while an atheist I viewed God as commonly assumed by atheists as some guy with a white beard floating on a cloud.
When the evidence for a God I encountered came both from ‘science’ and experience I began to picture God with a bit more maturity. As one person told me, “If I had a God I could understand, I would have a very stupid God”. Now I know that I could switch sides again if I wanted to, but right now there is not enough reliable evidence to tip the scale.
ET, you know I meant “virtually” snuffed out from numerous cataclysmic events which would set back the evolution of intelligent life indefinitely. The Drake Equation relates to INTELLIGENT life, not just life.
And you have no evidence that life wasn’t completely snuffed out multiple times. In the pre-biotic pools of organic matter, life may have formed and died billions of times before a life form resilient enough to withstand variations in it’s environment took hold.
You take evolution to higher degrees of complexity as a given. The universe demonstrates a frequent propensity of destroying such complexity as regularly as it creates it.
You are not arguing against the Rare Earth Hypothesis but merely asserting your belief it is false. I have given a non-exhaustive list of extremely improbable events which PERMITTED the evolution of intelligent life on this planet. I’m not saying that the conditions for intelligent life on Earth are unique, but the physical properties of elements and organic matter provide a VERY NARROW range of conditions where life could exist, much less intelligent life. Extremophiles may broaden our perception of how wide this range is, but there are threshholds of temperature and radiation beyond which the necessary chemical reactions for life become IMPOSSIBLE. These conditions must also remain RELATIVELY STABLE for hundreds of millions of years to evolve intelligent life.
That’s an extremely tall order, and the vastness of the universe is not a compelling argument when infinitesimal probabilities for permissible conditions are involved.
An off-center collision of two planetary bodies, one with a large amount of iron stripping off enough crust to create a relatively large moon to stabilize the orbit and block asteroid collisions but allowing enough collisions to add oceans of water drop by drop at a proper distance from a stable, medium sized star to allow for liquid water and a huge gas giant absorbing potential planet killing debris and life surviving other planetary collisions and complete glaciation of the entire planet and granite formation to create tectonic plates whereby convection creates renewal of the crust without the catastrophic upheaval like Venus…. We’re talking about a series of events which have a probability so close to zero it’s literally a miracle it happened.
Earth is not only rare, it is most likely unique. And that’s not at all an accident.
I still think you’ve got it wrong Joe. I don’t think it’s “wisest” to sit on the fence. I’ve seen too much death lately not to understand that I’m not promised tomorrow; therefore, if you are correct, and I die today, I wasn’t very wise.
I’m not hedging my bets, I’ve simple got some issues with the theist argument that haven’t been settled. I won’t go into them now, as this isn’t the time or the place. I have a good understanding of faith and what it entails, this is why I will not ever make the “prove it” argument. It’s a non starter.