On the Madness of Crowds;
After all, how rational is it to pass laws banning one kind of light bulb (and insisting on their replacement by ones filled with poisonous mercury vapour) in order to “save electricity”, while ploughing money into schemes to run cars on … electricity?
Heh, as an aside, I bought three green-tinted killer mercury bulbs replace my front door and garage lights to finish off my Christmas display.
With the current global warming Winnipeg is under, it’s a roll of the dice every evening to see if the lights will actually work.
A CFL-only Canada (and I’m not talking football here folks) will result in a lot of dark winters.
The electric car scenario is one I have spoken to with various people, but no one seems to get it.
Just think, here in BC, we are already being warned that our current use of electricity is above and beyond what this province can generate, on average. But what saves us for now, is that when BC Hydro has an excess of power, it sells to the Yanks, and vice versa, because of the change in seasons, and different usages between here and down south. An equilibrium, a delicate one, if you like.
But as we’ve seen in the recent past, California has had brownouts, because they haven’t enough power. And now, to save a precious little, inconsequential fish, power generation is down , as is the agriculture industry…..ahhh, the law of unintended consequences.
And, with the ridiculous greeny green ways, it is not likely gas or coal powered generation is not going to grow.
SO, exactly how are those electric cars going to be ‘fueled’? Surely, there is nowhere near enough solar, wind etc to do this. And we know how much the left loves ‘nucular’.
This whole scenario has not been thought through, it smack of wishful thinking, and a unicorn in every yard.
Our electric grid would crash if only 10%(dare I say less) of our cars were electric.
Kate.. thanks for the link. This is a must read, must save and must forward article.
Yukon Gold: “A CFL-only Canada (and I’m not talking football here folks) will result in a lot of dark winters.”
=========================
Which will be far more likely to cause a baby-boom than the CFL will. Unless of course, Diane Francis has her way. I wonder if Frank Francis watches a lot of football?
From Licia Corbella in the Calgary Herald
http://www.calgaryherald.com/technology/Real+scientists+should+care+more+about+fraud/2333666/story.html
I was watching BBC last night which is as close to centre as one gets with the MSM. they did a special on the Nile Delta , saying its dying because of rising sea levels, wrong, its dying because it is subducting and its not being replentished by the flood waters now that the Aswan dam has stopped the process of sedimentation.
the mississippi delta , located partly at New Orleans is also sinking ( they all do because of sediment load) the evidence is in more than 20000 ft of cretateous sediments in the gulf.
What I seldom see mentioned is the effect on peak loading. Most of these electrical vehicles will be plugged in when the user returns from driving around during the day. This will take place at the same time as people, in winter, start turning on their lights, when the street lighting is also turned on and when people start cooking on their electric ranges and using all sorts of other electric devices. Can you imagine what will happen to transportation when brownouts prevent people from recharging the batteries on their vehicles and they are not available for use the following day. Chaos!
No problem! Everyone will use the new Spanish car, the Rocinante, that has a windmill attached to its roof.
Easy. We will all plug our cars into the solar panels and charge them over night.
Derek
cal2, I read regarding the rising sediment behind the Aswan Dam a few years ago.. funny how they don’t really do anything about it, only report that someone else is at fault… or sick, whichever it is today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswan_Dam#Environmental_and_cultural_problems
with Hussien Obama stating during his election campaign that he would bankrupt any company that attempts to build a coal burning electrical generation facility, I can’t imagine the current drain on the electrical supply in the US if 10% bought into the electric car idea.
Their likely good for about 10 miles at best in South Dakota’s worst weather…
marc, a coal fired plant would provide base load. To provide for the peak that would occur when everyone plugged in their cars would require a plant that could be turned on and off at appropriate times – probably fired by natural gas. I’m glad that I own Encana shares 🙂
Derek, I actually had to stop and think about that for a moment.
Genius!
The best thing about the Rocinante is that the faster you go the faster the windmill turns and you get more power. Only problem is you need a donkey to push it to get it started.
Sadly, many people are batsh*t crazy. I listened to a call in show the other day – the caller complained that automobile companies didn’t care, because they hadn’t made electric semis. The host was kind and tried to gently point out the limitations of her argument, but she wouldn’t listen.
There is a great disconnect from the tripe people are being fed, the “solutions” meant to improve our lives and common sense. Right now, common sense is the actress who should have gotten the Oscar but unfortunately is sitting in the shadow of a starlet who was fed her lines.
Some such analogy.
DanBC and Albertaclipper:
I’ve covered this topic here in some detail before, but I’ll go over the broad strokes again for you.
First, Ontario and Quebec both have substantial generating capacity (nuclear and hydro) that is unused at night. I posted calculations previously that showed 10-20% of cars in those two provinces (which, last I looked, had more than 50% of Canada’s population) could easily be recharged between midnight and 7 am, using the same 220V outlet that powers your stove or dryer. Drawing 20 amps, that would provide 4.4 kW for 7 hrs, or more than 30 kWh of power. A million cars at that rate would draw 4.4 GW of power. Ontario ALONE has 35 GW of generating capacity. Suggesting that a draw of 10% of available power would somehow bring our electrical system to our knees is, shall we say, uninformed.
Other sources have shown that for each kWh, you can drive a car about 5 miles, so that would theoretically give you 150 miles of range each day.
However, every good EE knows that power conversion, battery charging, and electric motors are not 100% efficient. Although the actual numbers are better, let’s use 50% as a worst case scenario, so you can only drive 75 miles each day. That still gives you nearly 40 miles each way, or over 60 km.
I live in Toronto, easily the most congested city in the country. Last year, StatsCan estimated that the average commute here is about 40 minutes each way, and I can assure you, much of that is spent either stopped at lights or by traffic. Gasoline cars waste fuel in such situations; electric cars don’t. But, even if you assumed an average speed of 80 km/h for that 80 minutes, which is laughably high, you’d still be (just) within range.
Some might jump in here, and say “Hey, I live in Barrie (or Burlington or Ajax), and my commute is much longer than that”. OK, fine. Stay with a gas car. Buy a hybrid. I’m not suggesting electric cars are right for everyone, just as in other posts, I’ve said bikes are great for some but not others. But there are over 4 million people living within 40 km of Bay and King, and a lot of them could easily use electrics as their “commute” car.
Suggesting that everyone would immediately start recharging their cars when they get home between 5-7 pm is palpably ignorant. Ontario has already implemented a massive program of installing smart electric meters (we got ours last summer). Who would pay $0.10-.12 per kWh for afternoon/evening peak power when they could get it for $0.06/kWh by just waiting a few hours? I know I can buy a timer right now at Canadian Tire for less than $15 which would turn on at midnight and turn off at 7 am; I wouldn’t be surprised to see electric car makers install such timers on board. Saving $1.20/day, that timer pays for itself in less than 3 weeks – if you’re smart enough to buy an electric, you’re smart enough to figure that out. So, please, these specious threats of mid-evening brown-outs are exactly the type of “own goals” Peter O’Donnell referred to in another thread.
Bottom line: for Ontario, Quebec, and BC, with their underutilized night hydro/nuclear capacity, recharging a significant number of electric cars between midnight and 7 am will have negligible effects on generating costs, or the power grid. CFL lights, however, are going to be used at homes at times when generating capacity is, while not at peak, is expensive (i.e. using coal/natural gas). So, while I don’t disagree that CFL’s have their own drawbacks, there is an energy saving case for their use.
Here endeth the lesson.
Kevin.
Just to check my math. To charge a battery for 30 KwH would cost me $1.80 per night (at 6 cents).. is that right?
Seems like a good deal for those with urban commutes.
My question is about the battery technology. I bought a cordless lawnmower last year (just because cords are a pain). The battery is expensive and 2 have crapped out. I’m thinking of going back to gas now.
What is the cost of a battery suitable for a vehicle, and are they better than what is sold for the lawnmowers.
kevinB
once you start living in the real world you’ll discover how dumb you sound. Running numbers on paper is one thing, getting the average person to follow such logic is another. China has already proved the “stupidity” of your logic, people just don’t behave logically, period!!!!
I exploited todays balmy conditions (0C with no wind) to change the porch light from the 100A equivalent to a 60W incandescent.
The past few days with -10 and windy made even detecting the dogs return to the door after servicing problematic.
One of the bizarre inconvenient truths is the green-bat’s hysterical resistance to nuclear power….citing hypothetical safety issues when no-one has yet to die from nuclear power.
Wind power is chaulking up a rather large body count—-falls, getting riped apart in the mechanism-filled pods etc.
Citing Chernobil as an example is like citing the killing fields of Cambodia—both the result of communist management/policy.
“Madness of crowds”, herd mentality is accurate….a calculated exploitation of ill-informed, brain-washed, gullible masses is what it is about.
Most folk are convinced that nuclear power can result in an Hiroshima/Nagasaki like thermo-nuclear event……implanted and encouraged by the enviro-whachos.
Great article by Cohen.
But it’s not so much “Madness of the Crowds” as the “Mendacity of the Elites”. The public SHOULD be able to trust the science they paid for.
James:
Yup, that’s about right. Again, there will be losses in conversion, etc., so let’s be generous and say it’s double that $1.80 to $3.60. That’s about 4 litres of gasoline per day. In a congested city like Toronto, EnerGuide figures that four litres will give you around 50 km of range are unrealistically high; if you get half that, I’d be surprised. Bottom line: efficient electric cars are significantly less expensive on a fuel basis than gasoline cars.
But, you do raise a good point about battery life and replacement. And it’s very complicated to do an apples-to-apples comparison here. For example: a fully electric car with regenerative braking doesn’t need the weight or replacement of mufflers, manifolds, fuel injection, radiators, etc., and will use its mechanical brakes less often, and to stop less weight, so brake pads and rotors won’t wear out as often either. But the batteries are heavy, they do wear out, and they are expensive. There isn’t enough data to do an accurate, life-time “total cost of ownership” comparison. I can understand why there are skeptics about electrics.
GYM:
I read your post a couple of times, looking for some logical or factual point to refute. I regret I was unable to find either.
Serious question from an ignorant peasant; how well do smart car electric storage batteries retain their charge in very cold weather?
I know nicad batteries, marine batteries and car batteries don’t hold a charge very well in cold weather and are quickly drained,rendering them unusable.
Experts? Over to you.
From Martin Cohen’s article
Yet there was that odd graph out, the 12th one. As Lubo? Motl, a sceptical physicist
, joked, could it be that this was a tainted model – with its assumptions “tweaked” to fit prejudices by climate-change “deniers” funded by the oil industry? But no – the graph that contradicted all the others was the one based not on a model but on satellite measurements. It showed the Earth’s oceans dampening the heating effect
Lubos does have quite the sense of humour, this example of third world efficiency in vehicular transport makes electric commuter cars appear “unclean”.
Love the picture
http://motls.blogspot.com/2009/12/eu-pledges-to-repay-climate-debt.html
“: efficient electric cars are significantly less expensive on a fuel basis than gasoline cars.”
Bullshit. Whatever savings you claim they’d generate will be immediately negated by governments seeking to replace lost gasoline tax revenues.
Kevin
Thanks for the commentary.
I might modify a comment from above, to say that people have 24/7 lives, and many, many cars will be charging at any time during the day. Granted midnight to 7 may be the optimal time, however, in reality, as soon as people get home from the regular 9-5, they will plug in their cars, so that would tend to be the peak charging period. Not many people are going to rush out to the garage at midnight to plug in. And yes, no doubt, some will operate timers, but the fact remains, people will tend to charge at the peaks.
I’m not against electric cars, I think they have a purpose for short commutes and such. But heat will take away from their range. Also, seeing you are in T-O, you may not be aware of what BC Hydro has said about their output capabilities, as I have stated above.
For the life of me, I don’t know why just don’t go ahead and build Site C on the Peace. All it will take is money, and this government isn’t afraid to buy off the natives everywhere else for any other reason. Site C would serve this province for decades of more, cheap hydro power, as the Bennett Dam has.
Didn’t we just have a thread on electric Police cars in the UK that couldn’t turn on their roof flashing lights because there wasn’t enough electricity in the batteries to run them.
Derek, one thing to think about in the real world would be electric cars that run out of power in traffic. Cars today seem to rarely break down as the older ones did so we don’t see many failing. Imagine the chaos on any of our packed highways if even a small percentage of electric cars just stopped. How effective would be their heaters running constantly in our cold climate?
Bullshit. Whatever savings you claim they’d generate will be immediately negated by governments seeking to replace lost gasoline tax revenues.
I somehow doubt this post is from our gracious hostess, but I’ll respond.
For 2004, the last year for which I could most quickly find figures, Ontario drivers OF ALL KINDS – consumer, business, trucker, farmer, etc. – consumed about 15 billion litres of fuel each year. Let’s assume that 10% of people immediately replaced their gas only cars with electricity only cars for their commutes (highly unrealistic, IMHO). Let’s assume that those commutes account for 10% of ALL fuel consumption (supernaturally unrealistic, IMHO). So that would be 1.5 billion fewer litres of gasoline sold. The Ontario government collects about $0.15/litre in gasoline taxes. Total amount the Ontario government would lose in this completely unrealistic scenario? About $225 million.
For the 1 million cars I postulated earlier, this is around $1/day for each working day used by commuters. But, how, exactly, would the government differentiate between electricity used to charge cars or to run computers? Ontario uses about 150 TWh annually. Averaged over all users, this lost $225 million would be less than a quarter of a cent per kWh. Assume that it doesn’t get charged to the 40% of electricity use that is industrial; it’s still less than half a cent per kWh. For 30 the kWh per day that I used previously, that’s less than 15 cents per day.
This isn’t higher mathematics. This is simple grade 5 arithmetic, albeit with numbers of high magnitude. I’ve said over, and over and OVER, electric cars aren’t for everybody. But to suggest that they are for nobody, and to present specious, innumerate, and unintelligent reasons WHY NOBODY SHOULD HAVE ELECTRIC CARS is just plain stupid.
Oh, and before I completely leave the subject:
Previous comments on both sides have completely ignored the increased revenues of the provincial power authorities.
Running the numbers one last time: 1,000,000 cars at 30 kWh/day at 225 days per year: that’s just less than 7 TWh per year. Assume all of this is off-peak power charged at current rates of $0.06/kWh. That’s an additional $420 million of additional OPG/Hydro One revenue vs. the hypothetical loss of $225 million in gasoline tax. A significant portion of that $420 million flows into provincial coffers, offsetting the supposed loss. I suggest the actual impact of shifting demand from gasoline to electricity would have minimal effects on total provincial revenue, although I’m welcome to anyone who cares to post figures and arithmetic to back them up to have an alternate opinion.
KevenB… the weather today in Calgary (at this moment) is -27, next week’s looking better. For Kate it’s -30 today and a wind warning. How far can these electric cars go in this weather? I think electric cars are ridiculous… in a somewhat related post, Diana Francis wants us to have only 1 child, but doesn’t want to be the first to sign up for this… It’s easy to say, we can do this, or you should do this, but not so easy to actually do it. I see a large gap between fantasy and reality here.
I think don’t assume the best case scenario, and assume the worst case scenario, how about all those good Ontarians pushing their electric cars down the street into their driveways and plugging in to recharge at 6.30 pm, about the same time as the roast is supposed to be coming out of the oven.
Not likely.
and do any of these fictional electric cars have real heaters? or do they drive with the windows down so as to keep the windshield clear in the winter? I’d love to see McGuinty asking taxpayers for a push down the street in his electric car. uff.
http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/city/pages/ab-52_metric_e.html
Easy. We will all plug our cars into the solar panels and charge them over night.
Derek
End quote:————–
It makes sense thus the oil industry own’s the patent for the tecnology I suspect? The reason we do not have cleaner energy sources is the oil industry employs many people to think up alternative sources of energy and then patents the idea so no one can make a profit from their own tecnology. Big oil can’t wait to buy those carbon credits to double production but alas the econuts have sold their souls to the devil for profit.
Siren Red-Green Alert.
Environmentalist charged with crimes.
First noticed/posted at SDA.
A balanced report from AGW’s NYSlimes’ NUANCE Dept.:
“The findings are a serious blow to the hopes of environmentalists, entrepreneurs and investors who believe …”
But, don’t worry >>>>
“Scientists said on Thursday that because the Swiss report focused narrowly on the Basel project and also contained positive findings, it would not prove fatal to advanced geothermal energy as a whole.”
But, he wasn’t building Islam’s minarets:
“Mr. Häring is to go to trial next week on criminal charges stemming from the project.”
…-
Quake Threat Leads Swiss to Close Geothermal Project
New York Times ^ | December 11, 2009 | James Glanz
A $60 million project to extract renewable energy from the hot bedrock deep beneath Basel, Switzerland, was shut down permanently on Thursday after a government study determined that earthquakes generated by the project were likely to do millions of dollars in damage each year.
The project, led by Markus O. Häring, a former oilman, was suspended in late 2006 after it generated earthquakes that did no bodily harm but caused about $9 million in mostly minor damage to homes and other structures. Mr. Häring is to go to trial next week on criminal charges stemming from the project. […]
The findings are a serious blow to the hopes of environmentalists, entrepreneurs and investors who believe that advanced geothermal energy could substantially cut the world’s use of emissions-causing fossil fuels. […]”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2406267/posts
From above:
Another related question is – how much power would need to be expended to keep the inside of the vechicle at a comfortable and safe temperature compared to the amount used to move the vechicle?
Same thing in summer when it is +30C.
I have no doubt that was Kate @ 4:03 p.m.
Her blog, she’s the only one that doesn’t have f>rt with the fr*&&#+& keys.
No innovation is exempt from the tax man.And that sounds like more ‘govament regulation’: Thou shall not plug in the car during certain hours or else.
If the electric cars are battery only….big problem if you can’t get them charged at night; how do you get to work? not every one lives in giant ant nests close to electic busses, that only have a half charge. Even if you get to work: and there is brown outs you don’t work. The governments got their heads in the tar sands.
WHAT?!? Say it ain’t so! Compact floros filled wil poison? And here I thought David Suzuki was a biologist by training and ought to warn us if any such thing was lurking in those bulbs he’s selling. This crazy world is madder than a hatter.
Note to KevinB:
The facts and figures you put out seem very reasonable. If they are so, why are more people not driving electric cars?
A quick google search puts the Chevy volt out there for next year (2011 model year). I guess we will see if electric cars are viable around that time.
Let the market decide. If these cars are useful/viable/economical, everyone will buy them.
While very skeptical, I await the judgment of the market.
MB
DanB:
during the enron heyday, california brownouts were deliberately created to increase the spot price of electricity and make money for the speculators. basically they would order generating stations to disconnect from the grid.
watch “the smartest guys in the room’:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1016268/
you can see the traders laughing about ‘aunt millie sweating it out’ or some other appalling greed driven abuse.
ken lay was nominated by george dubya for secretary of energy. go figure.
MB:
I quite agree with you. I don’t know that electric vehicles are a priori better, cheaper to operate (on a “total cost of ownership” basis), or more practical than gasoline cars. I have my reasons to suspect that, in certain situations, they are, and that, in other situations, they are not. But I await both the advent of these vehicles, and the experience of their users, before making any final judgement.
Would I ever suggest that someone who has to drive from, say, Red Deer to Calgary 2-3 times a week depend on a completely electric car? I’m pretty certain that would never happen. But I think that the large number of people in Toronto who have commutes of less than 25 km/day could easily use an electric, while having a second gas car for other uses.
“One of the most critical facts we obtained from GM is that the 40 mile all-electric driving range will occur within 50% of the batteries maximum charge, or 8 kWh out of 16 kWh total. This translates to 200Wh/mile of energy consumption.”
http://gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/latest-chevy-volt-battery-pack-and-generator-details-and-clarifications/ This supports, roughly, my earlier post that you could get about 5 miles of driving per kWh.
Now, for the people complaining about battery performance in cold weather:
First, I have actual real world experience in that area. My 500W e-bike, which has a conventional (and freakin’ heavy, BTW) lead-acid battery gets significantly less range in cold weather than it does in warm weather. The dealer specifically told me I should remove the battery and take it indoors during periods of extended below zero (C) weather. As mentioned in another thread a few days ago, I’ve garaged my bike and taken the battery inside for the duration. Nonetheless, I suspect most people in Calgary and environs have lead-acid batteries in their cars, and expect those cars to start even if it’s -30 today. (And, yes, even here in Ontario, I’ve installed both block heaters and battery blankets on cars I’ve owned.)
However, Lithium-Ion (Li-on – like that!) batteries actually self-discharge more at high temperatures than they do at low ones. And, if your car is plugged in to recharge the battery, how much extra energy does it take to keep the battery a bit warm? I had friends too cheap to install block heaters or battery blankets take a shop light with a 60W incandescent bulb (no use for CFL’s there!), open the hood, put the light in, put a cheap, ugly, greasy blanket over it, and then go inside. Come the morning, they’d lift the hood, pull out the blanket, and turn off the light. 12 hours at 60W is less than 1 kWh, or less than 6 cents, and they boasted they never had to call CAA for a boost. (This while I was living in Ottawa, which is significantly colder than Toronto.)
I’m going to be looking for a new car later this year if business conditions improve. I’ll be looking for a car with a combo electric/gas engine – one that primarily uses its battery, but has a traditional gas engine for periods when the battery is either low, or I’m traveling for an extended period. Believe me, I’ll do a lot of research on initial cost, battery life, replacement cost, savings on electricity vs. gas, driving characteristics, etc. My wife happens to work for the Toyota dealership that sells more Prius hybrids than any other in Canada, so I’ll probably be able to get a deal there, but price won’t be my ultimate criterion.
Why would I look at a hybrid? Because I expect most of my business to be in and around Richmond Hill, that my daily driving will be far less than 50 km total, and that the cost of electricity will be considerably less than the cost of gas. That’s today – if my business needs change, if it turns out I need to drive more often each day, and especially if the price of oil drops considerably, I’m quite prepared to change my thinking. I don’t have a knee-jerk objection to either gasoline, hybrid, or fully electric cars. I think each has an application, and I think it’s up to each of us to determine which is right for us. Blanket condemnation of any of these is, again, just stupid.
No matter how “green”, privately owned energy consuming personal transportation on a mass scale is unacceptable to the left. Needed expansion and modernization of electrical generation and transmission systems is fought by them every step of the way. Their dream is something resembling Hong Kong except with bicycles being the only other choice to public transit for the masses.
Notice how the Climate Crisis Cult draw the line at electric airplanes.
Electric airplanes would be such an obvious parody that people would laugh, but a few electric cars seem to be acceptable.
Can anyone tell me how many hybrid power plants are driving the police force or how many military vehicles are electric or hybrid?
Let’s stretch the concept and see how absurd it could get.
Electric freight trains?
The grid is so fragile it did this in 2003:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Blackout_of_2003#Long-term_effects
sample:-
In the United States, the Bush administration had emphasized the need for changes to the U.S. national energy policy, Critical Infrastructure Protection, and Homeland Security. During the blackout, most systems that would detect unauthorized border crossings, port landings, or detect unauthorized access to many vulnerable sites, failed. There was considerable fear that future blackouts would be exploited for terrorism. In addition, the failure highlighted the ease with which the power grid could be taken down.
An interesting coincidence 2 weeks later in London England:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_London_blackout#Causes
On 17 October it emerged that the transformer fault was due to an oil leak, spotted some weeks before the blackout. The oil had been topped up but the leak had not been cured. National Grid’s Director Of Transmission admitted to a “small backlog” of maintenance checks. On 21 October it became clear that the leak had been known of since March. National Grid had started a regular programme of topping-up until the transformer could conveniently be serviced. Evidently this was ultimately not enough to keep up with the leak; “it got bigger” said a spokesman.
National Grid also operates the U.S. business Niagara Mohawk, and was among those affected by the earlier US-Canada blackout.
Effects
The London fire brigade took around 400 calls and made 100 rescues of people stuck in lifts. All main rail services were at a standstill in south London and the south-east. Sixty percent of the London Underground was affected (London Underground had shut down the last of their independent generators in favour of using Grid supplies in 2002) and people were stuck underground. 270 sets of traffic lights were hit. To relieve the transport problems, buses accepted train and Tube tickets. Thousands of people took to the rain-soaked streets. Pubs filled up with people sitting out the delays.
Yeah, lets make all of our transportation totally dependent on the fragile, easily disrupted, electrical grid.
A little under 2 years after the London Subways came to a halt because the grid failed we saw this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings
It was originally thought that there had been six, rather than three, explosions on the Underground. The bus bombing brought the reported total to seven; however, this error was corrected later that day. This was because the blasts occurred on trains that were between stations, causing the wounded to emerge from both stations, giving the impression that there was an incident at each station. Police also revised the timings of the tube blasts: initial reports had indicated that they occurred over a period of almost half an hour. This was due to initial confusion at London Underground, where the explosions were initially thought to be due to a power surge.
No public inquiry
The government has refused to hold a public inquiry, stating that… “it would be a drain on resources and tie up key officials and police officers”. Former Prime Minister Tony Blair said an independent inquiry would undermine support for the security service. A group of survivors and relatives of those killed are now pursuing legal action in the High Court and European Courts for a full Public Inquiry to clear up conflicting accounts of this day. The Shadow Home Secretary, David Davis said “It is becoming more and more clear that the story presented to the public and Parliament is at odds with the facts.”
KevinB; the main objection to electric cars at this time is the primitive state of battery technology. I was thinking of buying a hybrid this year (the Escape seemed initially attractive) but when I looked at the numbers I ended up buying a used Jeep Cherokee. It gets much worse gas mileage, but the cost was 1/10 that of the Escape. In the US, under the “cash for clunkers” program I would make money if I sold it.
Right now batteries come nowhere near the energy density of gasoline. Once they surpass that energy density then they will be very attractive assuming that the capital cost is low enough.
The thing that finally put me off the hybrid Escape was the limited ability to recharge the batteries with regenerative braking. My daily commute involves one or more trips that are uphill all the way with about 1000′ elevation difference. As I coast down that hill on my way home from work it bothers me that all of that gravitational potential energy is doing little more than heating my brake rotors. The maximum current into a hybrids batteries is far short of what one can produce going down that hill. Once ultracapacitor technology yields much higher total power storeage maybe hybrids/electrics will be more appealing.
As other people have pointed out it is cold during Canadian winters. Heating the interior of a vehicle at -40 C is likely going to require about 1-2 Kw (depending on how well the vehicle is insulated). One also needs a lot of power to defrost windows and power headlights (I estimate about 300W for the headlights alone). I’ve tried to work in an unheated workshop with 2 1.5 Kw electric heaters in very close proximety and froze; I now have a wood stove which works beautifully.
In the winter I can’t see any significant competition to an internal combustion engine as a power source. In the summer, it would probably be far better to switch to using a bicycle when one didn’t need to carry much rather than an electric vehicle. It doesn’t make much sense to have both an internal combustion powered vehicle and an electric vehicle when the bicycle takes up far less space and is way cheaper than an electric.
Once battery energy storeage density surpasses that of gasoline and charge/discharge rates are an order of magnitude higher, then I expect to see electric vehicles seriously competing with internal combustion engines.
Loki:
My daily commute involves one or more trips that are uphill all the way with about 1000′ elevation difference
I know this isn’t exactly what you meant, but it does sound like Grampa Simpson complaining about walking five miles uphill to school, and then another five miles uphill to home. It’s kind of Escheresque..
But, seriously, I know that’s not what you meant, and once again, I say: electric/hybrids are not a universal panacea. There are so many places where they don’t make a lick of sense, I can’t list them.
On the other hand, returning once again to the GTA, where nearly 20% of Canada’s population lives, the drop from Richmond Hill where I live to Lake Ontario is less than 600 feet over a distance of 40 km. And if you’re coming from either the west or east, where much of the GTA’s population is concentrated along the lake’s shore, the drop is negligible.
One last time: are there places where electric or hybrid vehicles don’t make any sense? Yes, yes, YES. But are there places where they do, where they might actually help us use our surplus hydro/nuclear capacity to sell a little more oil to our thirsty American friends, who then might be shipping fewer of their dollars to murderous OPEC states? Yes. Can we take the long view for a moment?
I don’t think I’ve made it any secret here, at any time, that I think the most dangerous threat to Western civilization is Islamic fundamentalism. Think about it, people – Islamic fundamentalism was nothing, nada, zilch, until it got oil money. When I was young in the 60’s and 70’s, the terrorists I heard about were the IRA and the Red Brigade. Neither were Muslim.
As a group, in the last 60 years, we’ve forked over huge amounts of money to backward, misogynist, authoritarian, theological monstrosities. This has given them strength, international scope, and global desire.
Where do you want to fight them? Here? Or isn’t it better, as Le Carre always pointed out, to find the “gold seam”? Cut off their funding, cut off their revenue (look at recent reports on Dubai, they’re already spending beyond their means), and let them go back to eating sand and dust (and STOP all their immigration here!).
Alternate energy threatens every major Muslim country; to me, that’s almost enough reason to embrace it. And, once again, it’s not an AGW issue with me – recent huge natural gas finds in both the US and Canada mean we could displace huge amounts of imported oil if we could find the technology to replace – and loki, I completely agree with you – heavily energy dense petroleum with less dense and more accessible alternatives.
Do we, as the West, want to continue to send billions of dollars each year to support Muslim terrorists, or would we rather use our vaunted brain power to find ways to reduce and eliminate our use of the oil those stupid Islamic idiots sat on for over 1,000 years before WE showed them it was of value?
Everyone, please think of it: of all the Western nations, we’re one of the few, the very few, that don’t have to import energy. We have oil, natural gas, hydro, and uranium in abundance. I hope all of us appreciate our bounty. Let’s use that, especially in the midst of all this Hopenhagen BS, to find better and more efficient ways to get from A to B without funding murderers.
Yesterday on an Ottawa radio station, a car dealer was being asked about hybrid vehicles. This man sold hybrid cars and conventional gas burners. He said that there was such a price difference between the two types of vehicles that you’d have to own the hybrid for 18 years to offset the extra cost.
KevinB: no disagreement on islamic fundamentalism and the less oil we buy from them the better. I think we’d be better off putting in nuclear reactors to produce steam to replace use of natural gas for heat production in the tar sands and also drill for oil off the coast of BC.
Eventually electric vehicles are going to take over from gasoline powered vehicles. Perhaps you’re right that in the GTA the underpowered short range vehicles are the best way to go. Being the paranoid type, I always ensure that my vehicles have a full tank of gas and have a pre-packed survival kit in case I suddenly have to leave and drive a long way. Can’t do that in an underpowered electric. I had major headaches parking one vehicle when I lived in downtown Vancouver and I can’t imagine that the situation is any different in downtown Toronto, and when you need to find space for two vehicles the frustrations are enormous.
As I stated before; once the energy density of a battery exceeds that of gasoline you’ll have a massive migration away from the internal combustion engine assuming that the battery life is long enough. Having regenerative braking and not wasting any power while sitting in heavy traffic are good selling points. The other nice thing about such a vehicle is that you’d need only ONE to drive about town for short distances and also for long trips.
Having played around with electronics most of my life I look periodically to see whether it is worth getting an electric vehicle as it would be so much fun to tinker with (I’m great with electronics but have been told to stay away from mechanical stuff). We’re getting close but still quite a ways from what I want. Perhaps there is a market for the type of vehicle you’re proposing in the GTA, but definately not in the BC southern interior.
KevinB, I’ll agree w/much of what you say, and such vehicles might be fine for mild climates, but the biggest practical roadblock to pure electric cars is the issue of heat — you can’t heat the interior of a car w/batteries. Without heat, you’ll freeze your feet off and the interior windows would fog up quickly making them dangerous to drive. Air-conditioning is another issue, but I manage to get by without it in hot weather (but I don’t live in a super-hot climate).
I’d love to be shown wrong about this, but don’t think I am.