Fellow SDA’ers, as I am merely a humble guest writer, I thought it would be appropriate that instead of deluging you with stories from the US, I try to pull some interesting statistics and charts about Canada so that we may all take home an exciting and interesting education in Canadian economics.
My goal was simple; compare health care expenditures as a % of GDP and the budget over time to provide all those interested a measure as to just how much of your budget goes to the health care system as well as what percent of your income goes to health care.
I found a great site called Statistics Canada that had all the data a budding economist could ever want. I quickly found the database where I could pull all the necessary information and upon clicking the “enter” button, received this little notice;
What in the name Puff the Magic Dragon is this?! I have to PAY to get what should be public information? Is this some kind of attempt to keep economic information from the poorer masses or some bureaucrat’s idea of a power trip?
Nothing like keeping vital information that would empirically disprove socialism away from the population.
Captain, I share your reaction to having to pay twice for information from the bureaucracy.
The Fraser Institute studies everything Canadian and their stats are reliable. Maybe they have some of this info.
Regards
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/
You all need to stop looking for boogey-men behind every door. I visited the CIHI website (which is federally funded) and in about 3 minutes, found this:
http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/en/downloads/Dir_Wint06_ENG.pdf
All free of charge. The data is from 2005 but probably with a bit more work, I could have found a more current report. I believe CIHI reports annually on health care expenditures as a percentage of GDP although they don’t compare to other countries (as in the above link).
BTW, the title of your post is “I have to pay for Canadian budget statistics”. Health care is a provincial responsibility (except First Nations and a few other groups), therefore no “Canadian” budget figure exists without some effort at compiling all provincial expenditures…as CIHI has done, referened in my previous post.
tis barmy. I ran into this wall last week an organization I pay over 1/2 my income in taxes in part to support them and they want more before they give you any good information.
But you get to pay their pension plan.
What a collection of utter rubbish in this thread. Let’s start here.
Loki: “The solution to this problem is to eliminate stats Canada”
And substitute what for it? Or would you rather be entirely ignorant of the raw data pertaining to economic and industrial activity in Canada, to name just two indispensables? Fine, you can access US data for free. What does that tell you about Canada? Zilch.
Next, bcf: “Simply make figures up. If Some twerp from Statscan or some other socialist outfit argues with you, defy them to produce the data.”
Am I to presume that all of your statements are on this basis, namely making things up? StatsCan isn’t in the business of advocating public policy positions, so they won’t argue with you about any sort of tripe you make up, unless you falsely attribute it to them.
Next, RCGZ: “My vain hope being they might back off on the next social program.”
StatsCan is not a social program; they collect the data that government agencies tell them to collect. This comment is about as dumb as blaming the trashcan as being responsible for creating trash.
Next, Tuco: “They give most of their data away for free. It’s custom stuff they charge for. Talk to the Fraser Institute about the quality of data at Statscan. It’s good stuff.
Heh. Go look at their publications page. The policy stuff is free. Anything with hard data in it is not.
Next, Robert McClelland: “I feel your pain but Harper cut StatCan’s budget so they need your $12 now.
For anyone who doubts that Harper cut StatCan’s budget, look it up. It’s in the `07-08 federal budget. You can get that info for free; at least until Harper cuts their budget too.”
All government agencies providing services have been required to implement cost recovery for more than 20 years. Don’t bore me by pretending that this is something new attributable to the current government. Some agencies are on 100 per cent cost recovery.
One thoroughly sensible comment, TJ: “Yes, the fact that one has to pay for Stats Canada info always bothered me given that they are funded out of taxpayer dollars.
But I think the info is valuable to marketing companies etc. so perhaps that’s why they charge.
Don’t know the answer.”
Cost recovery for federal services started as a recommendation of the Neilsen task force during the first Mulroney administration. The Deputy PM and his group looked at all government agencies to determine the overall scope of Canadian federal regulation, and which agencies and regulations functioned for the interest of all Canadians and which provided specific benefits. The task force determined that there was some public benefit to things like StatsCan but also some individual benefit for those directly accessing it, so it was decided that some costs should be recovered from those using it.
That policy has continued unchanged to this day except for details of fees charged. Given StatsCan’s mandate, if they didn’t charge fees there would be higher draws on general revenue to compensate. So, should those who use the system the most, pay accordingly? Socialists would say no, everything provided by the state is free; libertarians would say, you get what you pay for.
Ring, ring.
“Hello.
Yes Mr Farmer this is Statscan and we are doing a
survey on your farm finances. We need to ask you a few questions.
Scuse me, what is your name?
Patsy.
Patsy who?
I’m Patsy with Statistics Canada.
Patsy who?
We do not have tell you our last names.
Now please answer a few questions.
Okay, now let me get this straight Patsy.
You want to ask me questions about my farm finances over the phone and expect me to give these confidential personal answers over the phone to an anonymous person who name I don’t know, and can’t find out.
Yes.
Get lost lady and quite wasting my time.
Just how bloody stupid are you people?”
As they say, you cannot possibly make this stuff up.
I agree that the data are a public good and should be available to all, but the real question is whether Statscan is a bureau or a Crown Corporation. If it’s a Crown Corporation, then it is allowed to enforce its copyright on its own data.
http://library2.usask.ca/gic/v2n4/mcmahon/mcmahon.html
Federal government cost recovery policy flows from the fact that the Canadian federal government has copyright in the works it produces including intellectual property. 11 The right is perpetual and is rooted in seventeenth century Britain at the time of the restoration of Charles II well before England’s first copyright law was passed in 1710. 12
In the United States the federal government does not have copyright to the works it produces. However, U.S. state and municipal governments can claim copyright as can their Canadian counterparts at the provincial and municipal government level. In Canada both the federal and provincial governments are not bound by the copyright act and are immune from suits for infringement; this is not so with their U.S. counterparts.
To add a wee bit from a farmer’s perspective; information is money. All this data we are compelled to provide is useful to some one else to make money off. Case in point; agriculture. If the amount of grain or livestock is a known quantity then the market speculators have a lot easier time in predicting the market. The producers lose a significant advantage they have to the speculators due to the federal government compelling its citizens to hand over private information.
“StatsCan is not a social program; they collect the data that government agencies tell them to collect. This comment is about as dumb as blaming the trashcan as being responsible for creating trash.”
Er, CGH why do “government” agencies ask statscan to collect data if not to prove up a scenario for a new social program or expanded spending in existing ones?
Perhaps you think they need the information to support government budget cutbacks? (snicker)
So basically, as cgh so adroitly pointed out, many “conservatives'” personal responsibility/power to the market via pricing/capitalism vs. free goodies from government goes right out the window when $12 is concerned.
Signed,
Your Fellow Conservative
As far as accuracy goes, I suspect Statscan has access to Revenue Canada data, but needs your form filled out as cover for having the real info.
Ian
Well, RCGZ, ever hear of little institutions like Industry Canada, Natural Resources Canada and the Ministry of Finance? Not exactly your social welfare clubs, and they are among the heaviest users of StatsCan data within the government. So, you seem to think that all spending by government is bad, do you? Well, how would you know whether a program was having any effect or not if you didn’t collect data about it? It’s clear you would prefer to have a government do all its spending without having any intelligence at all on its effects. How do you think we know that Canada has a problem with productivity? StatsCan data among other things.
As to your main contention, don’t be a dolt. Governments don’t make a habit of inventing social programs; they’re LOBBIED FOR by special interest groups.
“Perhaps you think they need the information to support government budget cutbacks? (snicker)”
Just priceless. Where have you been during the last federal election, or during the whole of the 1990s when the feds were cutting programs like mad. Does the phrase “arts cuts” ring a bell for you? Yes, governments cut programs all the time, and surely even you might have observed the effect that one had on the prospects for a Tory majority.
I’m still rubbing my eyes and laughing at this. Did I just read a post on SDA complaining about having to pay $12?
Do people really have to fill out forms without pay? That’s slavery. And no one should have to pay for public stats.
” Yes, governments cut programs all the time”
And the budget expands yearly. How does that happen? Oh yes, more social programs and expanded budgets.
As to the conservative capitalist argument, I am paying for the information already. Once with my taxes for the bloated bureaucracy, pensions and jobs for life for those who work for statscan, and twice when my company is expected to provide the resources to collect the data free of charge.
Not going to pay for it three times. That simple.
“RECOMMENDATIONS
It is recommended that Statistics Canada discontinue the practise of cost recovery for goods and services that have been generated in the pursuit of its taxpayer funded activities and move to a system of charges based on transfer costs . Here transfer costs are defined as those costs incurred in moving data from its finished state to a medium as required by the data user. In addition, the use of covenants such as licensing agreements which restrict the use or distribution of goods and services provided by Statistics Canada should be discontinued.
Furthermore, it is recommended that Statistics Canada provide access to its major data bases such as CANSIM via the Internet or other access modes without charge. This approach will facilitate the democratization of data and should lead to a more informed and enlightened public most of whom provide data free of charge to Statistics Canada many times during their lives.”
http://www.stats.gov.sk.ca/docs/costrec.php
Well, RCGZ, I presume that means you’re opposed to an expanded military, because that’s where a lot of additional funding has gone. I’m not sure I’d call Afghanistan “an expanded social program” but it costs money, lots of it. So, do you want user fees or higher taxes to pay for the extra two plus billion a year? Or fiscal deficits? I happen to think an expanded military and presence in Afghanistan rather important, but your blanket statement labeled government expanded budgets as “social programs”.
As to expansion, ever hear of a little thing called inflation? It’s still out there. Even standing still and expanding nothing means increased costs year over year. Freezing government expenditure means contracting programs at the inflation rate.
“As to the conservative capitalist argument, I am paying for the information already. Once with my taxes for the bloated bureaucracy, pensions and jobs for life for those who work for statscan, and twice when my company is expected to provide the resources to collect the data free of charge.”
No, you’re not paying for it. You’re paying for part of it, which is why they collect user fees on top.
Ural, you surely realize that recommendations from the government of Saskatchewan are hardly binding on the federal government. Lots of people have been asking for removal of government user fees on lots of things. Big deal. Is Saskatchewan prepared to pay for it through reduced transfer payments? I thought not, and neither is any other province.
Fine, since you offered Industry Canada as an important agency…… I’ll just leave it at that.
Many years ago I received the Statcan Farm census. After ignoring it for several months I started to get nasty calls, threatening me with legal action if I did not submit. I finally gave in and listed 10 acres of burdock and 30 acres of marijuana.
Never heard from anyone since.
$5 for every FOI request does not sound so bizarre, eh? I contend they require a cheque to keep track of those who pay for information and for no other reason. Guess it’s the same here.
I used to be in business and Stats Can sent out these very detailed request for pricing and sales info. Many were based on a % of sales. I deliberately made the numbers add up to something other than 100%. They never offer to send me to a math re-education class but the info requests stopped!
do you own a gun? try that question.
By refreshing contrast, we in The Great Satan have the General Services Administration’s Federal Citizens’ Information Center, online at http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/
They have a helluva lot of FREE information available online and via published informational brochures, booklets, etc. The URL for their catalog of these is http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/catalog.pdf Most are free, or if not free, are available for a modest charge of a dollar or a few dollars, for postage and handling.
cgh – you sound like a gov’t employee. You might want to get over your Sask thing and read the report/look at the tables. Something tells me that he may be right … costs about $11m to collect $11m. We’re being charged because it costs to charge us.
Squeegee kids.
My apology … french speaking squeegee kids.