70 Replies to “That’ll Teach Him For Backing Bob Rae”

  1. lynnh
    what you refer to is claw-backs in equalization.
    Equalization clawbacks mean as you earn more, you get less free money which was supposed to subsidize provincial spending (not provincial citizens.)
    Aside from leftard economists (sadly they exist in numbers not in keeping with the ability to count,) there are few who would equate not getting as much free cash with taking something that belongs to you.
    SK was only “hard done by” through equalization cutbacks in that they received less money earned by Alberta and Ontario. I reject the notion entirely.

  2. I dunno, clawbacks of 108% seem unjust. For instance, could you imagine a pension income clawback of 108% The goal should have been to allow room for the economy to grow and therby help the province become self sufficient.
    What your argument boils down to is – Sask got equalization for many years therefore they should never, ever, be allowed to critique federal policies. Even ones that will negatively impact their newly gained, self-sufficient status. They have no right to try and protect themselves.
    Now that notion….I reject.
    (Apologies Kate, I’m done with the OT debate – warwick and I will use private email if he wished to continue)

  3. Warwick
    I understand your point about commies in Sk and BC, hence my association with the SPA(Separation Party of Alberta). Sk and BC will have to do some soul searching to figure out who they are.The idea of “western separation” is a fallacy, and it is the arrogance of the two aforementioned provinces and the public to assume that Ab would want a union with Saskatchewan and BC. Your argument is valid and Albertans SHOULD be wary of this strong tendency towards socialism in Sk and BC. That being said I find it ironic that you use my argument of past voting records to support your argument that I shouldn’t use past voting records.
    “This is about liberals and other leftards vs. those with real jobs. ”
    Would you be willing to estimate for me what % of Ontarians fall in the “real jobs” category. I suspect

  5. “Sask got equalization for many years therefore they should never, ever, be allowed to critique federal policies”
    Not at all. We can all crab about the feds as there is normally lots to crab about.
    What you can’t say you’re hard done by without making yourself look like a fool.
    I don’t care if the ratio of the clawback was 1:1000, every dollar you had GIVEN to you was earned from other people. Unless the equilization number was a negative number (as only Alberta and Ontario can say,) you have no business whining you didn’t get more of our money.
    And I still reject the math. “economists” are much like lawyers in that you pay them to tell you what you want to hear. That’s why it’s a humanities subject and not a science. That and they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.
    And yes, my undergrad was eco. I know they’re full of shiite.

  6. “And I still reject the math. “economists” are much like lawyers in that you pay them to tell you what you want to hear. That’s why it’s a humanities subject and not a science. That and they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.And yes, my undergrad was eco. I know they’re full of shiite.”
    I agree that you’re right about economists, particularly with respect to undergrads.(sorry. I. could. not. resist.)

  7. Indiana Homez
    I wasn’t so much rejecting your idea of voting patterns as suggesting the notion should be expanded as you then do.
    As for the number of people with real jobs in Ontario, outside the GTA and Ottawa, lots. Inside, not so many.
    The problem is that the government is in Ontario. If the fed capital was in Calgary, Calgary would be as socialist as any other government centre (like “redmonton” for instance.)
    [Sorry, Kate. Got away with myself. I’ll stop posting now.]

  8. note to alberta. you have ed the talking horse, socialist as your leader. he will never embrace a separation of any sort. you of course listened when he shit on the companies that have created the wealth in alberta.

  9. i am just angry about the stupidity that passes as thought in this bloody country.

  11. There are many in Sask. that have never voted for the LPC (Leftard Party of Canada) or the NDP (Natural Dumb Party). The problem was that with the age-ed population and the fear mongering of the NDP and the policies of the LPC it was easy for them to get voted and keep us down.
    Equalization was and will always be a farce. A new age is growing in Sask. and the days of the leftards is gone I believe. Tommy died a long time ago and as with Stalin he will be just a distant memory soon to become a mere foot note in Sask. history. There is a new will out west and it will not be beholden to any ideas from eastern centralist fear mongers.
    All I can say is, “Dion just try it.” You and the eastern electorate will be remembered for destroying Canada.
    Cheers

  12. There might be some justification for the perception that this plan disproportionately harms western Canada. The question is how you tax “carbon. The answer is, rather arbitrarily: from the Green Shift Book:
    “The 700 large final emitters (the worst polluters in Canada – mostly heavy industry and power plants) will account for a significant majority of the revenue within the Green Shift.”
    I’ve seen enough charts to know right away this hits the west harder than the east, more than marginally I’d say, due to relative lack of hydroelectricity and nukes out west compared to Ont-Que, and the oil sands.
    The rest would appear to hit businesses and regular everyday Canadians hard: while gasoline is exempt, diesel is not, neither is propane, kerosene, natural gas, or coal. More details:
    “The average Canadian household using home heating oil purchases approximately 1800 litres per year…In year four, the Green Shift will increase costs by $203 per year or $16.95 per month.”
    “The average Canadian household using natural gas purchases approximately 3,000-3,500 m3 of natural gas each year…In year four, the Green Shift will increase costs from $228 to $266 per year or from $19 to $22.16 per month.”
    Keep in mind the above increases are over and above any increase in the world price, as the Liberals explain for me so well:
    “Experts agree that the cost of fossil fuels is likely to continue to rise for the long-haul. The era of cheap oil is over. This trend is attributable mostly to the rise in demand from emerging economies. In China and India alone, 50 million people every year reach a middle class standard of living.”
    “By the end of year four, the Green Shift will have increased the average freight trucker’s total annual operating expenses…approximately $1,700 per year.”
    Over and above rising world prices, it should again be noted. Here’s some good threatmongering:
    “Most importantly, Canada will move quickly to put a price on carbon so that its exporters are not boycotted in global markets.”
    Only 6.7 billion of the 15 billion in tax hikes is going back in the form of income tax cuts, the rest is in the form of targeted goodies for the grievance cohort (3.7 billion), business tax cuts, and miscellaneous.
    Interestingly, they estimate half a billion in lost corporate tax revenue due to the negative economic effects of their own policy.
    All quotes directly from:
    thegreenshift.ca/pdfs/green_shift_book_en.pdf

  13. Indiana Homez at June 23, 2008 2:46 PM
    I look at Ontario and Quebec’s federal voting record and I have to disagree with the “average Joe” argument. This argument holds just a little more water than the “moderate Muslim” argument. I don’t pretend to know what is in the mind of the central Canadian voter, I look at the voting record; and, as I said earlier “I don’t care what central Canada wants or stands for”.That is the whole point, think what you want, vote how you will, that is your choice. I will reserve the right to not to care. “Fool me once, shame on….shame on you, but fool me, can’t get fooled again” GWB
    You found the core at the center of this Apple. In some ways it ain’t no less heinous in some ways than striping the natives of there culture. BY federal fiat or intrusions. It was NEVER meant to be that way. Yet to preserve power they have become Imperialists for most of Canadian history. Eating up the ship building of the Maritimes to the wheat board out here. While charging the ROC with price gouging. Time to go before they corrupt us all beyond redemption politically, if not culturally , even ethically or religiously. Everyone one knew that Harper was the last kick of the can for Westerners. Its seems that those we entrusted to represent us have returned to the same old sleaze. If not abetted by fear of Ontario’s own economies going into the dumpster. Not a little because of socialism. I fear all of us in the West will have a crucial decision to make in the near future. Particularly if the LIBERAL LOOTERS regain power in central Canada. Do we still want to be Old Canadians with individual rights with responsibilities or Central Canadian robots in eternal adolescence by a willing polity waiting to be Islamified?
    The Time is coming faster than I thought possible!

  14. Jesus Christ on a crutch!
    You guys are bound and determined to separate no matter what! While I don’t blame you for being mightly pissed off at what happened in the past, I can’t believe that you are so short-sighted that you think you can make a go of it on your own.
    Hello! You are living in a global economy. You are counting on a finite resource to carry your freight foerever. Ain’t gonna happen!
    And don’t count on the USA to save your bacon. That ain’t gonna happen either.
    You are nothing more than a blip on their radar and when your natural resources ar depleted, or when another source of energy is developed, you will end up like West Virginia, Kentucky or the coal mine reagions of Pennsylvania,

  15. There are conservative supporters up here in Quebec. Why even the riding of Pontiac is a mere stones throw from the Nation’s Capital and it is Conservative (Laurence Canon).

  16. As a transplanted Albertan in Ottawa, and a hard core conservative, I can tell you that there are a lot more Conservatives in Ontario than you think. Some of you may have forgotten that this province was a Conservative bastion from 1971 to 1985. Bill Davis ran this province like a business and it thrived. Peterson (Liberal) and Rae (NDP…now Liberal…no loyalty there) almost bankrupted the province between 1985 and 1995. Harris got the province back on track in 1995 but Eves lost it to “I will not raise your taxes McGuinty” in 2003, and we have been screwed ever since. His power base is the GTA and he is helped by the socialist NDP voters in northern Ontario, union folks from the mining and milling towns.
    Conservatives are finally starting to come back to the ballot box. Take my federal riding for example, the Conservative MP took it away from the Liberals after 20 years. I live in a very French township, and older French folks always vote Liberal. Their kids are not so loyal to one brand and the former MP actually did very little for this riding because it was considered a bell weather riding….the Conservative challenger played on that and won, on average by 2 to 3 ballots per polling station. Point is….there are more Conservative voters in Ontario then I thought.

  17. Warwick: Sask votes Conservative federally, and until this last election, has voted NDP provincially. Hopefully, with this last prov. election, Tommy and his NDP troops have been permanently laid to rest.
    Indiana H: I’m with you on separation. Central Canada has a culture which is very different from that of Western Canada. Furthermore, Canada is a Federation of provinces and Sask. can break away at any time.
    I personally think Sask, Alta and BC would be a small powerhouse. People fail to realize that Sask. has even more resources than Alta. Port Vancouver is the largest port on the West coast of N. America by metric ton of volume. The new SaskParty has thrown the doors of the province open to development, and the place is rocking!
    For example, the Bakken Play, a huge oil formation found in south-eastern Sask. has potentially 25-100 billion barrels of sweet, light crude. This is more oil than the Alta. tar sands and easier to extract.
    In North eastern Sask., Goldsource Mines discovered 415,000 hectares of coal. Shares went from $0.30 to $17.00 in just a few months this year.
    Premier Wall hopes to have a nuclear reactor built in 10 years. We are the world’s largest producer of potash, with PCS now having the highest share price on the TSX. We are also the world’s largest producer of uranium. I have yet to mention our natural gas, diamonds, agriculture, Light Source etc.
    A quote from a recent TD Bank report:
    “Indeed, if Saskatchewan was a country, it would have ranked 5th highest in terms of per-capita GDP among OECD countries in 2007. By 2010, the province could sit as high as third place, above the United States and behind only Luxembourg and Norway.”
    Sask. has also been recently featured in “The Economist” and described as the fastest growing economy in Canada.
    I do not see why Sask, Alta. and BC, if they so choose, would not be a viable country.
    So, tell me again why the West needs Central Canada and why we should allow Dion to knee-cap us just to raise money for his fall election promises. He needs money to buy votes in Ont. and Quebec.
    The question is not if the West will separate, it is when!

  18. Well said Gypsy. The truth hurts. Central Canada is scared and has now realized that that if the west does not get an equitable shake within federation they will walk. The west can not only be natural resource power house, but we can become a manufacturing power as well.
    Let them freeze in the dark.

  19. Malcolm:
    I respect your views and positions when I read your comments today and in the past and I hope my tone isn’t too crass, there isn’t an insult intended to you or anyone else. That being said your comments at 7:29 reinforce my point WRT Ontario and the people there. In a matter of hours your argument has turned to fear and threats as to what would happen if we DARE to separate. Not listening to those like yourself and others who are looking out for our best interests may be Alberta’s(and the west’s) doom. Just like the battered woman who’s husband tells her “If you leave you will not be able to make it on your own, you’re nothing without me, and your friends will not bail you out, you actually have no friends.” Under these circumstances I would tell this woman to pack her bags and leave ASAP.
    Finally, it is Ontario not Alberta and Saskatchewan who has failed to adequately diversify its economy to be flexible for today and the future, Mr. Flaherty’s comments on this are clear, and Ontario’s response and attempt to deflect responsibility is typical. We appreciate your concern for our well being, a quote from Jay-Z comes to mind: N@#ga your broke, what the F&%K you gonna tell me!

  20. Homez:
    I am not attempting to defend Ontario or the rest of the East. Ontario is going through an absymal time thanks mostly to the Liberal Government here.
    Flaherty is quite correct in what he says. Left-Wing politics and trade unions have destroyed much of what was a vibrant economy here.
    The point I was attempting to make ( and not too successfully, I see ) is that in order for the West to successfully go it alone, they are going to have to rely on more than just one commodity
    to make a permanent success of it.
    I am also suggesting that the USA would have limited interest in having the west become the 51st state other than for it’s source of energy.
    If I was a westerner, I would be trying to attract
    a diversity of business and commerce to relocate there through tax relief and other incentives.
    High-tech along with primary and secondary manufacturing would provide a cushion if the energy industry should suffer a dip in fortunes.
    Perhaps industries now operating in Ontario could be induced to relocate there. There is one caveat
    though. Along with the industries you’re going to get the labour unions.
    It was not my intention to offer threats and fear as I personally feel a great deal of empathy for the west and how they have been treated over the years. That being said, some of the posts here remind me of the thought process that was going on in Quebec in the Levesque separation era. Raw emotion overtaking reasoned thought.
    God bless the west if they can do it but it will be a long, hard road and emotions can often get in the way of a successful conclusion.

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