A newspaper located in a Liberal governed province in economic decline looks westward for ideas, licking its lips…
(screenshot)
A newspaper located in a Liberal governed province in economic decline looks westward for ideas, licking its lips…
(screenshot)
kingstonlad, have you read about the u.s. city that gave it’s fire and police etc pensions of 80 percent of their wages. the current fuel price disaster as well as the housing slowdown has made it impossible for the city to meet the obligation. ontario may find itself in the same situation.
I am on the side of NFLD too, Glenn. I know how the people of NFLD were treated by the gov’t of Canada when the country of NFLD choose (by a very narrow margin, perhaps a questionable margin) to join Canada. The promises Canada made to NFLD were “scraps of paper” and the Feds plundered and insulted NFLD for the next 50+ years. NFLD elected a strong capable leader when they elected Danny Williams; I admire and respect Premier Williams. He stands up for NFLD – the people who elected him. The Prime Minister is the only comparable leader in the Dominion, it is not surprising that these two outstanding leaders lock horns occasionally. This is a good thing IMO. I know many NFLDers, they are fine people that I am proud to call friends – I will never stand against them.
The remaining provinces of this Dominion have elected weak, lack lustre, wobbly kneed Premiers and if the truth be known, we only WISH that we had a Premier of the caliber of Danny Williams.
The worst insult and robbery of the province of NFLD (beyond plundering the Grand Banks) was the ‘deal’ NFLD made with Que. re: the hydro power from Churchill Falls. I think Danny should take Que. to court and DEMAND pay back for stealing from the province of NFLD all these years.
That is retroactive payments for all the years Que. has been selling power that does not belong to Que.
Jebus sounds like a typical Sask. socialist. I know, I live in Sask. and see many of them on a daily basis. I guess that’s why I take so many showers.
Actually you can tell the gravity of Central Canada’s economic situation by the frequency of use of the phrase ‘no matter where we live, we are all Canadians’.
It means their slack-a$$ed, boneheaded politicians need to find an outside source of funding for their dunb ideas.
BTW, exactly how much does Ontario SUBSIDIZE the price of electricity nowadays?
On another note….All this craziness going on in the world today. Everything is so upside down. We have enviro-nazis, commies, libs, satan’s cult of islam, and probably a few more lunatics that I can’t think of right this second.
I don’t believe we can win this fight with words. It’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Nope, words won’t win this. We’re going to need more than words.
To A Storm is coming,
Call me what you wish, however answer me this simple question:
Are you seriously saying that for the last 50 years you would have preferred to be an extra 10 – 15% tax just so your province wouldn’t slide wildly into debt instead of just a slow gradual move into debt? That would be the reality of Saskatchewan for the last 50 years had the equalization program not existed.
old white guy
If Ontario’s manufacturing and tourism bases keep declining as they have been the last few years(and with zero leadership coming from chimpy mcidiot, I cannot see how it can get better)it is only a matter of 5 – 7 years before they either 1. have to borrow to cover their pension obligations or 2. raise taxes substantially.
I can just here the gen Xer’s now. BANG, from leftard to neocon, cuz not only do they not want to fund the “f’king hippy’s” retirement(their words, not mine), they actually loathe them.
“We’re Canadians, no? What makes someone in Saskatchewan deserve oil money more than someone in the Northwest Territories? Or B.C.? Or Ontario? I think that we need to let capitalism take it’s course in some ways, in the sense that if New Brunswick is tanking economically, we shouldn’t prop up a dying whale by telling it’s people that they don’t have to move, or find a new career or line of work.”
Idiot
Here’s an idea:
How about just leaving the Western boom alone and being perfectly content with the massive amount of revenue from GST and Federal personal/ corporate income tax it is generating for Canada?*
* Yeah, I know. It’s positively un-Canadian not to want to tinker with economic success until it falls on its face.
Oops!
Sorry Kate.
Seems my above did appear earlier twice (with slightly different wording). I had a few challenges here and thought I had failed to successfully post.
Still, the message was worth repeating, I think.
A Storm Is Coming:
What the hell is “We’re going to need more than words” supposed to mean? Encoded bullshit like that might be more appropriate over at “Storm Front”.
If Eastern Canada goes for our resource wealth like the National Energy Program, I think we should start a new country here in the West.
As for sharing the wealth, if people want a share of it, move to Saskatchewan.
This said, Western Canada should broaden its energy resource sector into leading edge solar collection. The USA needs electricity as well as oil. There is lots of sun on the Prairies.
Some might think it Star Trek stuff, but we could also have space based solar collectors. Let’s think big!
If equalization would not have existed then people of Saskatchewan would have adapted by fixing the problems and creating a stronger economy, accepting the lower standard of living or moving to greener pasture. Saskatchewan’s problem was never one of resources, opportunity or drive but mostly govt incompetence, specifically socialism. It is the natural consequence of kicking out private business and then allowing government to own and operate the remaining business. Equalization just delayed the pain.
Well Jebus, I’m not quite sure what equalization and the n.e.p. type policies that the libs want to do, have in common.
To Rabbit: good name for you. My post meant exactly what it says. This country/world is heading toward an armed conflict whether your sensitive mind can accept that or not. I’m not a storm front kind of guy. I’m not racist. I tend to judge people on ideology, not skin color. Read my post again. I never mentioned color. Bury your hear if you want, that won’t save your ass.
Jebus I don’t feel it is a reflection of not supporting equalization. There was also a piece in the G&M by a guy at ATB who was opining how Alberta should spend the money ie multi-provincial university funding etc. Albertans are hicks ’till they give their money away to the arts and stuff.
Rick Shaw,
Solar Power in Canada is not something viable ever. Not now, not tomorrow, not in the past. We are far far far above the equator and the result of that is indirect sunlight which translate into extremely poor power production from even the most modern solar cells. Nuclear would be by far more efficient, cheaper, and better for our economy than solar cells.
Lynnh,
That’s quite possible. I agree that the NDP’s treatment of business as leprosy was quite foolish. As to what we would have done though, it can generally be accepted that we would have lived with a lower standard of living, with worse roads, more broke farmers, and a very low population.
I suppose it’s all personal opinion, but I’d rather have a certain standard of living be a minimum across Canada, rather than certain ghetto provinces. I’d prefer richer provinces like ourselves reaping some benefit from our natural resources, but for the most part, still having equalization payments to help out other provinces in need.
Thank-you lynnh, I was going to address that mealy mouthed comment by Jebus in exactly the same way that you have. There are still lots of bolshevik types in Sask (minus one that the stupid Yukon gov’t hired; a Mr. Brooks to help make the Yukon totally dependant on the ROC for spending $$ to pay the overpriced gument workers that have settled in on nice comfy furs in Couton’s wife’s ‘Park) but they voted for The Sask. Party because many of the old hippies were worried about their’out to pasture’ (pension) funding. Perhaps the old Bolsheviks in Eastern (Central) Canada should have considered their own pasture money when they voted for goofy, incompetent Dipper Premiers in their last elections.
Next Glob and flail poll: ‘Are western socialists smarter that eastern socialists’?
Just a quick note before everyone flies off the handle (oops, too late).
The options listed in the poll were all suggested by Todd Hirsch in the G+M article, (which apparently no one read) as options for the _western_ provinces.
The universities option was to consolidate them and get them to specialize (which I voted for). Does Lethbridge, Brandon and (shudder) Regina _really_ need full-meal-deal universities?
The energy pool was to pool energy resources among _western provinces_. Also a good idea, IMHO: have a read here about how BC and Alta energy supplies complement each other.
http://languageinstinct.blogspot.com/2008/05/battery-and-charger.html
I don’t doubt for a second that central Canada, spearheaded by their G+M mouthpiece are drooling over and resentful of the $$ generated in the west, but that is not what this poll was about.
A Storm Is Coming:
I’m not against armed conflict when it is necessary and justified. I am against bloggers not playing straight by being vague just at those times when they should be clear and specific. It often means that they’re holding cards they ain’t showing.
I shall assume, then, that your style could use some tweaking.
Seems to me, that back in the early 1980’s Ontario was eligible for an equalization payment. The Premier (guess what party) said “Hell, no. Ontario is not and will not be a have-not province. We will continue to pay our share.”
Maybe Albertans could use a little of the same maturity. Just because the dinosaurs died in Alberta is no reason to get all bent out of shape about helping out a family member. You should remember that for a lot of years, the other family members were helping you.
Should resources be considered under equalization formulae? Of course they should. It would be asinine not to. It seems to me, that the old 50% idea wasn’t all that bad. But it must encompass the value of ALL provincial natural resources. BC’s timber and mines, AB’s oil, gas and timber, SK’s mining, timber, oil and gas, MB’s timber, mining and hydro generation, ON’s mining and timber, QC’s mining, timber and hydro, NB’s timber and offshore oil, NS’s mining and offshore oil, PEI’s offshore oil and ?, NL’s mining, hydro and offshore oil.
Where the problem occurs, as I see it, is when politicos decide to curry favour by offering one jurisdiction their own special deal. If the rules are set out, and followed, the issue is not nearly as contentious.
Having said all that, I certainly don’t blame AB for wanting the same sweet deal seemingly offered to the maritime provinces, it seems to me that a better argument would be that the playing field will be drastically altered by this new offer. And as such, it should a) never have been made and b) should be withdrawn.
I have a real problem with greed as opposed to need. And as Jerry Reed sang so many years ago “Who’s gonna collect my Welfare? Pay for my Cadillac?”
I say this coming from the province that sucks the hardest on the federal teat at about 40^ of revenue. Thanks to our whining entitled Provincial pols, and the enabling federal ones, I have thoughts that we may actually be the first province to leave Confederation. In a pine box. Hello SK, we’re your new albatross. And you won’t be as easy to draw!
Jema54,
thanks for your comments. You said …”The Prime Minister is the only comparable leader in the Dominion, it is not surprising that these two outstanding leaders lock horns occasionally. This is a good thing IMO.”
I agree. I have maintained from the beginning that if PMSH had kept the original intent of his agreement he and the CPC would have garnered all but 1 of the 27 seats in Atlantica for generations to come. With Alexa retiring he would have gotten all 27 now. Danny Williams would have handed him those 27 seats from Atlantica, he really is that popular down that way.
Unfortunately, the O’Brien report gave those within his cabinet, the PMO/PCO and the Quebec wing the opportunity to expand their base in Quebec and their quest for a majority govt. Or so they thought.
Political expediency trumps doing what needed to be done and what would have paid off in the longer run for the health of the nation. What the rest of us got instead was more colonialism and less nation building.
Too bad.
Rick Shaw: I agree that the West should separate. I am quite sick of Ont. and Quebec and their “center of the universe” attitude.
Jebus: You are either very young or an NDP indoctrinate. Socialism aka NDP politics is what killed Saskatchewan. Sask. has more resources than Alberta. One can only hope that with our last election in Sask, TC Douglas is truly dead…once and for all.
I have no sympathy for the East. They are living the Liberal/Socialist life they voted for. Cry somewhere else. We are too busy counting our money!
What big-ticket project should the western provinces put their energy into?
A 30 foot trench at the Manitoba border with Ontario (there could still be oil in MB). Create the Republic of Oilmerica. We could have “directional” pricing. World price for shipment south, World +50% for offshore westward, World x2 for shipment East. Cost of production for Local use.
Too bad we didn’t know about the poll before it closed, it may have gone horribly wrong.
I’d like to vote in this poll.
but “the west”, is is the only response I would choose.
and furthermore, what business is it of a declining eastern newspaper, to tell us what we should be doing.
really.
I remember the Premier of Alberta on TV announcing we had been invaded by the EAST & our resources contrary to the NEW constitution ( It was never good than & is worse now) where being annexed . If this even begins to happen yet again, where gone. One invasion by troops was one thing in 1880 because of a land grab disguised as a new measurement, than again our economy with the NEP. Another assault on our lifestyles will be the finale.
Nice of the East to have raided our banks out here & stole our grandparents accounts, while sending a train of rotten apples during the depression. Stymied agriculture with a phony control board. Outrageous costs of transportation using the same lines while making it cheap for Ontario to bring manufactured goods. Jailing our farmers for what Easterners do any year selling their grain. The list is endless.
Albertans are the highest taxed people in Canada if not the Planet. While Quebec has the least per person. Plus we give provinces all over Canada interest free loans. We call took a 4 % income cut so the future generations here would be debt free. We went without for years to balance our books. For what? Ingrates who want to loot not produce. This thanklessness wedded to the indignities of a cololonalist Ontario having held us back for a century will cap it with a new round of larceny.
Alberta will just slip away with no fan fare.
Ontario and Quebec are already moving to increase their take. The whole “cap and trade” scam is designed for just exactly that. They’re applying pressure on the feds to make it national and rubbing their hands with anticipation at the prospect of the potential windfall from the oil and gas industry.
Jebus:
“if New Brunswick is tanking economically, we shouldn’t prop up a dying whale by telling it’s people that they don’t have to move, or find a new career or line of work.”
Saint John N.B. area alone:
Under construction:
$700 million LNG plant
$200 million Pipeline
$ 1.5 Billion Nuclear Plant Refurbishment
$ 1.7 Billion Potash plant expansion
$ 11 million Cruise Terminal
Multi- million $ Mall Expansions
Half-dozen new hotels
Proposed or in process:
$ 2 Billion dollar oil refinery
$ 2 or 3 Billion dollar Candu reactor..maybe even 2 of them
$ 100 million dollar Courthouse/ Police Station
Multi-Million $ Waterfront Condo Develop- Sold more in 4 days than last 25 years combined
Multi-million $ Cogeneration Plant
Gas, gold and uranium discoveries
And a lot more that escapes me at the moment.
On the negative side, we have a Provincial Liberal govt on training wheels. For 3 years.
Their first year in officer they hiked taxes and announced a Self Suffiency agenda. With a 25 year timeline.
And now are trying to convince Harper that NB can become self sufficient, if only Ottawa would pony up more dollars.
They are also quite excited about NB’s own Carbon Tax. But ours beats the Federal Liberal one all to heck. Ours isn’t revenue neutral. No sir. It’s going to give even more back to taxpayers.
Anyone, anyone who believes him needs a curfew and a caretaker.
Yeah Belisarius, the cap and trade scheme is balls, we can only hope that somehow PMSH can come up with something to shoot the bill down.
To Gypsy,
I am young, and I do agree that the NDP are the one’s that had previously killed this provinces economic independence, in the very same way that Manitoba is handicapped by their NDP government.
I merely support the idea of equalization payments, and I do not believe in exemptions of any kind on any good or service being included in the formula for it’s calculation. Just because it’s our primary resource doesn’t mean it should be exempt in the same sense that Ontario shouldn’t be able to claim their revenue from the auto industry should be exempt from their calculations.
Obviously it’s not the right time for the feds to be rattling sabers about taking our oil revenue to shore up their declining manufacturing sector, but the system’s been broken a long time, and it’s silly for Saskatchewan to believe we’d have been all right without our equalization payments over the years.
If we want a say in this country, in terms of politics, it’s direction, etc. we have to become contributors in the same way Ontario has dominated national policy because of it’s economic clout and it’s volume of voters.
Summom Bonum,
That’s excellent N.B. is doing so well, I had no idea of the economic boom going on there, and with the price of Potash, I should have realized that N.B. would benefit a great deal as Saskatchewan currently is.
Now, when it comes time for the government to calculate it’s equalization payments to N.B., is N.B. going to be upset that they won’t be getting any money? Or if they are going to get money, that it won’t be anything like they’re used to getting?
“Albertans are the highest taxed people in Canada if not the Planet. While Quebec has the least per person.”
Please. I can abide a certain level of annoyance and frustration from the West about policies hatched in “Central Canada.”
But don’t advance your agenda on the back of lies and half-truths. Albertans are almost certainly not the highest taxed people “in Canada if not the Planet [sic].”
Québec residents are positively clobbered by tax and – if you’ve spent your life in Alberta – you know nothing about high taxes, believe me. There are many countries in Europe and elsewhere whose rate of fiscal confiscation would make your notion of high income taxes seem laughable.
The NEP was brought in by Lalonde and Trudeau to stop the creation of a petro-chemical industry in Alberta which would have caused a migration of workers from Ontario and Quebec to the West, consequently upsetting the Liberal power base. Lalonde is quoted saying that the Liberals would not allow that kind of migration. David
JFC jebus. NFLD should keep every thin dime of their oil revenue. They should stop receiving Alberta’s. And if equalization hadn’t existed, then maybe Sask. voters would have stopped sending incompetent socialists to Regina 40 years ago, developed their own oil sands, and been sending pogey to the Maritimes for 35 years. And caz, I just left Alberta after 31 years there, and you sound like you may remember nep v1.0. We got f****d over at a time when the premier of the day actually had a pair. What do you think Ed “Smallberries” Stelmach is capable of doing, when Ontariario comes a’callin’?
At least there was no call for more swill for free-loading farmers.
Glenn:
You’re talking through your hat. NB and NB and PEI are unanimous. Danny Williams is an obnoxious twit.
NB and NS and PEI….
Armed conflict? I don’t think it is possible at this time(not saying I support it). We are currently in a climate where we can not post an opinion without fear of repercussion. IMO it doesn’t matter what you say, because new ground is constantly being broken on what you can and can’t say (apparently you can’t mock an accent). Any type of armed conflict within our boarders(civil war?) would require organization, and I’m pretty sure we’ve lost the right to freely associate. The signs are in front of us: gun registration(confiscation), the rewriting of history, banned books and music(RAP), and finally the elimination of free speech.
I have dwindling hope that a Conservative majority can fix this, I’ve got 5 years of patients left. I find it extremely positive when a “softy” like our “morning radio guy” brings up the “S” word. “The people of Central Canada are the biggest threat to our way of life”
I agree with the post re: Gen ‘X’ and how we’ve been bent over by the Boomers, but perhaps not to the point of loathing. Sure we can blame them for lots of s**t, but who is perfect.Their biggest F’up as I see it is how they’ve tried to destroy the family structure, which resulted in the Boomers not reproducing at a rate to sustain themselves.Fools! Selfish! That being said, they have us by the balls. This is why McCain will win in November and we’ll never have hip hop radio, too many old farts with too many votes. I suspect this is a national security concern for the future.
To Rabbit:
Assume what you will lagomorph.
“Jebus” As a life long resident, of Saskatchewan, need I remind you that all the oil,gas,potash,uranium,coal,diamonds and all the others things we have here have always been here. The only thing that has kept us a “have not” prov. for all these years has been the N.D.P. and all the GD whiners that voted for them. Nuff said.
Hey, is that some sepratist talk I am hearing? Well it’s about time!
summom bonum
No hat required, it is what it is. The CPC will lose seats in Atlantica next election. You’re viewing things ‘now’ through a fractured lens. and a little late getting to this party. I’ve broken down the seat count in the past showing how the CPC could have wrestled a majority out of keeping their word to Atlantica. Did you actually read the Hansard or is your rebuttal a knee-jerk one?
Once Dion gets the shiv and either Rae-Iggy get in the CPC are doomed. Then we’ll be talking about a fractured country. AB nor NL will be hanging around this time to see where the chips will be landing.
It is what it is.
The problem with Atlantic Canada is that it wants to have its cake and eat it too. The CPC kept its promise of maintaining the status quo on equalization and resource revenue. But it also offered another deal to which the Provinces could opt in, which increased equalization but also factored in resource revenue. This was optional. But the prospect of increased money in the short-term was just too tempting for the likes of Danny Williams. All of the moaning and wailing was really just an attempt to extort more money out of the feds. The whole stupid system of equalization really does just generate a culture of dependence. A comparison of New England States with Atlantic Canada illustrates this clearly. I wish there were a way to get rid of it.
Glenn:
Our singular Atlantica media and varied political partisans agreed on one thing, and one thing only for a decade and a half. Reform was Evil, and the Devil himself personified by Manning, Day and then Stephen Harper.
That IMO, plus a decidedly unfriendly national media is what has held Harper back. To ascribe it to a particular policy requires an insight which neither you nor anyone else possesses.
As far as reading tea leaves or whatever else it was that allowed you to see the future: with no members in PEI, 2 in NS, 3 in NB and 3 in NFLD, there is not much to lose and even a disaster is only going to lose 3-4 seats max. Danny Williams has as much influence in NB and NS as Gary Doerr does in Alberta.
My condolences on your Hansard habit.
Belisarius:
Our adverserial system serves the politicians well. The debasement Provincial Premiers go through to avoid accountability underscores why we should never elect a Premier as PM.
All politicians want their cake etc… I too wish the Atlantic Provinces would get out of my pocket…..along with farmers, the Auto industry, the Space industry, the Oil industry.. etc. etc. etc.
Harper snookered Williams with the fine print. Good on him.
Williams wasn’t snookered at all by any fine print. He knew exactly what he was doing and understood his choices perfectly. Stick with the original deal or take the new one.
He calculated that he could take the increased equalization payments from the new optional deal in the near term, then apply heavy pressure to the Harper government to remove its future inclusion of resource revenue by calling it a “betrayal” of the original deal. Even better, it gave him an external enemy to rally provincial voters around.
Belisarius:
You are most likely correct. I know I would take Harper’s word over Williams’ no contest.
My point is that Williams is just doing what Premiers do, ie. “Even better, it gave him an external enemy to rally provincial voters around.”
However, each Premier and each Province have their own grubby ways of getting the gelte. Atlantic Canada is no grubbier, and certainly much cheaper.
Having said that, I’m all for change, as long as it involves a whole lot less government.
Typical knee jerk. The Hansard says it all. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.
Same as Brad Wall in SK. Roll over and take it and throw whomever you have to under the bus.
It’s easy to blame politicians. There is a reason that politicians are all the same.
It works.
Media with an agenda.
Uninformed and easily mislead electorate.
IMO, Harper is an improvement. Change will be incremental.