50 Replies to “Y2Kyoto: Our Grasp Exceeds Our Reach”
Yeah, we have a large red spot on this planet as well.
SUVs on Jupiter too? Curse the automakers and their extra-terrestrial marketing campaign.
Climate change and Global warming without human interference? How is that possible?
David Suzuki, please help me understand?
Pretty picture, almost like one of Vincent’s.
Jupiter’s Three Red Spots will be no match to what will happen on earth in the year 2018. I know, I asked Al Gore.
It must be all that nasty CO2,which makes up what,about .0000001% of Jupiter. But there is no hard surfaces to absorb the radition that it is trapping,so ummmmmmm. Those gaseous aliens(much like a Kyoto Kulitists mind)must have PO’d some ancient God. OR,maybe these things just happen normally in the solar system?
And BTW,the new “Save the Jovians from themselves”(TM) Carbon trade plan has been started. Minimum enrollement fees required,and we are in negotions with Saturaniians to start a similiar sche…errr…plan to save them. Just send 1 Jovian duncecam (currently trading @ 1 – 1000.00 CAD) to the address found at my email. Thank you and may the Jovians prosper.
about 3 times the size of earth and at least 300 years old.
some good video here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Red_Spot
Dr.Fruitfly where be ye?? we need an explanation
The climate change link referenced in the article goes back four years —
Jupiter’s Spots Disappear Amid Major Climate Change
By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 01:00 pm ET
21 April 2004
Kate: this is a really interesting post, although it does not show what you imply it does. It is interesting since it is providing good information about a climate on another planet. The more we know about the climate on other planets, the more we can learn about Earth’s.
However the implication seems to be that the sun is causing this change, in which case there are a number of counter points to this.
The first is that Jupiter is about 5.2 times further from the sun than the earth is. This means that while earth receives 1367 W/m2 from the sun while Jupiter will receive about 50.5 W/m2. So if there is a 0.1 W/m2 increase in the solar constant at Jupiter then there should be a 2.7 W/m2 increase on Earth and we have seen nothing close. So if it is the sun, there must be some very large amplifying / feedback factor to cause the increase. Nothing has been proposed yet.
Second, as is commonly pointed out here, the sun does not seem to be increasing in output so we are left with the conundrum of how a cooling sun can cause an increase in Jupiter’s temperature.
Third, Jupiter is rare in that most of its heat is generated internally. This is evident since it actually emits about twice as much heat into space as it absorbs from the sun. So a change in solar output would be even less important on Jupiter.
More information about the climate of Jupiter can be found over here.
Regards,
John
And the melting ice caps on Mars, jc? And the warming recorded on Titan, which does Not have an internal heating mechanism? (btw, the Earth has an internal heat source, also)
It’s Izzy….Jupiter needs a Carbon Tax.
C’mon guys….
It’s totally unfair to be mocking MMGW’ists on this until they have had time to consult their exalted and all-powerful Jupiter climate computer models.
The ‘crystal balls of science’ as it were.
Sigh…
John – why must every discussion with you devolve to explaining the obvious context?
(a) The “everything is climate change” meme is stupid – see title, click link…think.
Jupiter Too, eh !? More “work for Maurice Strong, Gore, Suzuki.
I heard just the other day that because of this climate change issue, the price of gas in the vicinity of the red spots has gone up by 65%. There is now a mass political campaign afoot to reduce the effects of joviogenic global warming. The average Jovian apparently isn’t buying it, especially with renewed calls to increase their gas tax.
By Jupiter in the heavens, she’s going to explode I tell you!!
By JOVE we’ll have some global warming justice now!
Call me a “sun spockian” when it comes to global warming/cooling. This is much more satisfying that being a “LUNARTIC”.
Exxon better shut down their refineriers on Jupiter and send them back to earth where they are needed.
MORE CO2 makes for happier forests which in turn produces more O2. I think I can calm down now and keep breathing. Whew.
Lets start up a tree planting credit market. Breathing is a human right isn’t it? Maybe we should ask the CHRC!
Cheers
Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht
Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
Let’s see, Jupiter with no people, no fires, no cars, no carbon fuels is warming up. Geez, perhaps the GW religion lemmings are going to have to rethink that maybe, just maybe, the sun is heating up our solar system, and, when that dies down we’ll have our next Ice Age.
But, don’t count on this uncomfortable piece of information to jar the mind of the GW religion lemmings into doubting their central spiritual tenent that not the sun, but, only we human sinners are playing havoc with the climate. They are a lot like their 7th century Muslim counterpart, facts don’t matter, hard science is for the infidel.
John all that thoughtful analysis and you still don’t get it.
Let me just ask:
If all that is happenning on Jupiter, with no people on it, then why,here on Earth, do we blame climate change on people?
I-think-that-is-what-Kate-was-getting-at.
31072 Scientists say man made GW is a crock.
ttp://www.petitionproject.org/
I for one don’t believe it. My head hurts and my brain is starting to sizzle.
I KNEW that Hummer dealership on Jupiter was going to mean trouble…
Speaking of gas giants, what does Al Gore have to say about this?
This has GWB’s finger prints all over it. What is he up to?
Tenebris: Hey, I clicked the link to Kate’s H/T where the following was stated:
Or, just maybe, the sun has affected Jupiter in a similar fashion as it has Mars and Pluto, and that the negligible warming Earth has experienced comes from the same source.
So I think that I can be forgiven if I missed the meme.
Regards,
John
Penny: which of my three points above do you not agree with?
Regards,
John
Bluetech: We don’t really know any of the details of what is taking place on Jupiter. For example it was only about 15 years ago that it was hit by Shoemaker Levy 9 and what did this do to the climate. On the otherhand, we do know significantly more about the climate on Earth.
Uncertainity on Jupiter does not necessarly translate to uncertainty on Earth.
Regards,
John
John Cross: What physical evidence convinces you that AGW is real? Where does the deep conviction come from? Perhaps by telling your story we can all learn.
John Cross: If I accept your post as fact, perhaps you can help me out. Do you want the earth to warm or cool? Please explain your answer because I am confused with the AGW postition on this. When AGWers were against warming I was in disagreement; but, if they are now against cooling we may have some common ground.
I blame the Martians.
The Jovian atmosphere was first observed at the height of the Little Ice Age. Earth has warmed since then; so, apparently, has Jupiter. The Great Red Spot has always been there.
Al Gore was right, global warming is causing more storms – on Jupiter.
Hey, Norwegian Nobel Committee, how about asking for that “Peace Prize” back from the fraudulent Al Gore?
JohnCross @11.37
I want to see the Cassini numbers for Jovian insolation. Remember, however, that it is not only direct solar irradience that affects the Earth, and Jupiter less. The Sun’s magnetic field injects enormous amounts of energy into the earth’s atmosphere, and maybe also into Jupiter as it is a very active planet, elecdtrically and magnetically. Further, as the Sun gets stronger or weaker (more or less active) so the heliopause moves out or in, shielding the solar system from less or more cosmic rays.
Sorry, don’t try to bamboozle me with kindergarten numbers when we don’t have a comprehension of the processes.
Someone here is playing dumb. It is not a brighter Sun – hotter hotplate – that is the mechanism that some claim is reponsible for the sun driving climate change on earth.
[Cosmic rays are deflected away from Earth by our planet’s magnetic field, and by the solar wind – streams of electrically charged particles coming from the Sun.
The Svensmark hypothesis is that when the solar wind is weak, more cosmic rays penetrate to Earth.
That creates more charged particles in the atmosphere, which in turn induces more clouds to form, cooling the climate.
The planet warms up when the Sun’s output is strong.]BBC
Kate has posted on this many times – it is impossible for anyone so “engrossed” in the debate here not to have picked up on that.
Lately, the sun’s solar cycle would indicate a cooling on earth.
Lately, the earth has been cooling.
Coincidence ??
Has this ever happened before ? Yes, many times.
The Maunder Minimum, The Little Ice Age, was not a happy time on Earth.
And, yes, someone will say, blah, blah that CO2 conc is rising and man is causing it.
Yes man is putting CO2 into our atmosphere. A very small amount in the scheme of things.
CO2 is a minor gas in the atmosphere – 0.03 percent. if we double it, 0.06 percent. big deal.
CO2 is a minor, GH gas.
Yes, a century ago, CO2 was at 280ppm.
Now, 380 ppm.
but, But, BUT – Dinoaurs, lush fern days, enjoyed CO2 at levels far greater than 1000ppm. And survived !! And Thrived !! For millions of years !!
Yet the warmongers think that higher CO2 is bad. How about trying lower ?
If CO2 levels were to fall to, say, 200 ppm, plant growth would suffer.
If CO2 fell to 160 ppm, or so, plant growth would stop. Then we ARE dead !
Careful what you ask for. After all, something caused a kilometer of ice over Canada only 10,000 years ago. If we would have been here, we would not be here. Suzuki does not like Man to be here, I know, but all his favourites would be squashed also 🙁
Preaching to the choir Ron. The believers aren’t listening.
They’ll never listen to us, but I think they’ll stop listening to the Suzuki sermon when their ecomomic situation starts to turn ugly.
John is always a little slow recognizing the obvious. After all, he has faith, absent any measurements, the cooler atmosphere heats the warmer earth.
John, hey, I didn’t scroll up before I posted, your points are well taken, but, grant me this, that the unscientific minions that have made GW their religion without the benefit of good science are fools.
I too have had a recent outbreak of red spots (allergies) that from here on in I deem to be the direct result of my personal climate change.
Penny: I think I agree with you. Anyone who accepts a scientific argument as absolute without any skepticism or thinking about it is a fool.
Regards,
John.
PS ol hoss, at least I can answer a simple question like what I see when I look at the ground. I am still trying to get you to answer that one.
“.. but I think they’ll stop listening to the Suzuki sermon when their ecomomic situation starts to turn ugly.”
Yes, but what they will strive for – everyone else may have their economic situation go bad – not theirs. Mo, Al, Dave will never be short of cash in their life times !
Past cool periods, identified with the late stages of the “Little Ice Age” and with the [Maunder and Dalton climate minima, closely correlate with low sunspot numbers (astronomers have kept close tabs on sunspots since Galileo’s time). Some solar-physicists are now saying if the current cycle doesn’t begin to produce spots soon, we can expect a cool-down like the 19th-Century Dalton minimum – or worse. Decades-long cooling in the past brought crop failures to Europe from repeated summer frosts and restricted growing seasons.] Leader Telegram http://www.leadertelegram.com/story-opinions.asp?id=BGMHH9IPD4Q
ron in kelowna;
Your 8:30 post is well said. We are far closer to the low end danger point, as far as atmospheric CO2 concentrations are concerned, than we are to the optimum level for plant growth which is about 1000ppm.
The irony is that the don’t-care-for-humans-just-give-me-a-green-earth-types should be dancing in the streets at news of higher CO2 levels.
Hey Ron, did you know they used to try and predict commodities prices by watching sunspot activity? Later they decided sunspots had no effect on weather so no effect on crops. Now it seems they’re a predictor once again.
ahhhh, the natural universe.
John Cross
Nice spin, nice try.
When you have multiple planets all warming at the same time, there is obviously something that is causing it.
It is obviously not too many Hummers and Suburbans. It means that there is obviously some force that Al Gore and the climate frauds haven’t taken into consideration in their foolish computer models (golden equation of any model: Crap in, Crap out.) There is obviously a gap in the “scientist’s” knowledge that they don’t understand.
It is obvious to any reasonable, rational person that the alarmism of the “scientific” community has been artificially manipulated through peer bullying and government grant forcing (aka – tow the line or perish from lack of grants.)
This false “consensus” is the downside of the peer review process.
I personally blame Hanson for the lot of it. He should be charged with about 1000 criminal violations including treason then hanged.
The idea that the “debate is over” isn’t a scientific argument. It’s a statement of coercion and bullying. It’s a statement that warns any wayword scientist who is thinking of going against the grain of the consequences of “leaving the reservation.”
Warwick: I presented three points which I thought refuted the point that the sun was warming Jupiter. Can you dispute them? If not then I would say I was not the one engaged in spin.
Regards,
John
John Cross
It’s always fun to watch someone try to educate Kate and Kate’s little minions. But it tends to be a waste of time.
The fact that Kate’s minions believe that a cooler (or steady state ) sun is causing increased heating on Jupiter and by extension Earth is always good for a laugh.
Rather than actually learning something, they prefer to dump on people who have actually done research and quite probably know more about this than Kate and Kate’s minion do.
The ironic thing here is that when this all comes to a head and Kate and her minions see that they were wrong all the time, they’ll blames scientists for not raising that alarm sooner.
And the GREAT RED SPOT a enormous hurricane and JUPITER is farther away from the sun then earth its and according to the green freaks and AL GORE we were suppost to be having hurricanes far worse then KATRINA which proves AL GORE and the GREENS are just out of their minds and plan dishonest
Jupiter has a lot more surface area then the Earth, over a thousand times as large. Likewise it also has an enormous electro magnetic field. I once saw it described, if you could see Jupiter’s mag field it would appear twice the size of the full moon.
That makes it a very effective scoop, collecting up the solar plasma and funneling it into the planet’s poles.
Frankly speaking the eruptions of Io (surface temperature -143°C) and the fact they are electrically induced by the planet’s field are more telling then Jupiter’s sudden outbreak of measles.
John seems to be implying the planet is undergoing self-powered climate change. Since Jupiter’s internal energy is due to gravitational compression, a sudden change in weather would mean there were an appreciable change in specific gravity or total mass of the planet.
I suppose this could be possible. Perhaps Jupiter has been sweeping up a bunch of comets and asteroids. But since planetary collisions of this type are relatively rare, and since Mars, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Titan, Triton, Enceladus, and Earth are all exibiting heating in a close time frame, I think we can rule out added mass in the case of Jupiter’s climate change.
And two of Kate’s minions speak. Who knows what spurwing plover is dribbling about…other than its the basic right wing verbal vomiting.
As for papertigers assertions…yes Jupiter is larger than Earth…it’s also much farther from the sun than Earth is. This means the amount of sunlight intercepted decreses…as John Cross pointed out earlier in this thread…Earth get Approx. 1367 W/m^2 and Jupiter gets…50.5 w/m^2. Quite the difference regardless of size.
The Magnetic field is great for channeing charged particles. If your implying that these fields are channelling more charged particles into Jupiter you have to explain the distinct lack of Solar Activity…which would be the source of these particles. Can you?
As for Io…have you never heard of Tidal heating… http://www.planetaryexploration.net/jupiter/io/tidal_heating.html.
As you are claiming that a bunch of planets are exhibiting “heating in in a close time frame” it is incumbant upon you to explain what the source of this heating is. And is this source of heating is solar in nature…then please give us the following…
1) the temperature change on these planets
2) change in solar flux that would cause this
3) what we would expect to the temperature on Earth if you fantasies are true.
Here’s an example…one denier opined that Pluto’s temperature increased by 3.5 degrees and that this was caused by an increase in the solar flux. Now by figuring out the solar flux on Earth and on Pluto, one can figure out what temperature change we should see on Earth if this was the case. Turns out we should be seeing over 20 degrees change…something we have not seen.
Of course, this involves Math and a little Physics…something Kate’s minions seem loath to actually understand.
Papertiger: I think we had this discussion before over here. If that was you then we can pick it up again either here or there (I would prefer there since Kate locks her boards after a week more or less). You never responded to my post (number 7). Do you now see your error when you say Well dang. Something doesn’t compute. How is 0.0033 W/cm2 “almost twice as much” as 55 W/m2?
Regards,
John
As you are claiming that a bunch of planets are exhibiting “heating in in a close time frame” it is incumbant upon you to explain what the source of this heating is.
Well no Murray, it isn’t incumbant upon me. I’m not advocating for a fundamental reordering of the worlds energy use, based on doctored data and ideology.
It’s up to you to tell me how global warming/climate change on all the other planets, is disconnected and in no way related to Earth.
Have fun.
John Cross, if you expand the scope of your website to include the ozone hole scare, I’ll come over directly.
You still haven’t answered how a gravitational compressed heating of Jupiter leads to warmer equatorial regions, when the poles of Jupiter are so much closer to it’s core. When you answer that one I’ll come pester you again.
Yeah, we have a large red spot on this planet as well.
SUVs on Jupiter too? Curse the automakers and their extra-terrestrial marketing campaign.
Climate change and Global warming without human interference? How is that possible?
David Suzuki, please help me understand?
Pretty picture, almost like one of Vincent’s.
Jupiter’s Three Red Spots will be no match to what will happen on earth in the year 2018. I know, I asked Al Gore.
It must be all that nasty CO2,which makes up what,about .0000001% of Jupiter. But there is no hard surfaces to absorb the radition that it is trapping,so ummmmmmm. Those gaseous aliens(much like a Kyoto Kulitists mind)must have PO’d some ancient God. OR,maybe these things just happen normally in the solar system?
And BTW,the new “Save the Jovians from themselves”(TM) Carbon trade plan has been started. Minimum enrollement fees required,and we are in negotions with Saturaniians to start a similiar sche…errr…plan to save them. Just send 1 Jovian duncecam (currently trading @ 1 – 1000.00 CAD) to the address found at my email. Thank you and may the Jovians prosper.
about 3 times the size of earth and at least 300 years old.
some good video here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Red_Spot
Dr.Fruitfly where be ye?? we need an explanation
The climate change link referenced in the article goes back four years —
Jupiter’s Spots Disappear Amid Major Climate Change
By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 01:00 pm ET
21 April 2004
Kate: this is a really interesting post, although it does not show what you imply it does. It is interesting since it is providing good information about a climate on another planet. The more we know about the climate on other planets, the more we can learn about Earth’s.
However the implication seems to be that the sun is causing this change, in which case there are a number of counter points to this.
The first is that Jupiter is about 5.2 times further from the sun than the earth is. This means that while earth receives 1367 W/m2 from the sun while Jupiter will receive about 50.5 W/m2. So if there is a 0.1 W/m2 increase in the solar constant at Jupiter then there should be a 2.7 W/m2 increase on Earth and we have seen nothing close. So if it is the sun, there must be some very large amplifying / feedback factor to cause the increase. Nothing has been proposed yet.
Second, as is commonly pointed out here, the sun does not seem to be increasing in output so we are left with the conundrum of how a cooling sun can cause an increase in Jupiter’s temperature.
Third, Jupiter is rare in that most of its heat is generated internally. This is evident since it actually emits about twice as much heat into space as it absorbs from the sun. So a change in solar output would be even less important on Jupiter.
More information about the climate of Jupiter can be found over here.
Regards,
John
And the melting ice caps on Mars, jc? And the warming recorded on Titan, which does Not have an internal heating mechanism? (btw, the Earth has an internal heat source, also)
It’s Izzy….Jupiter needs a Carbon Tax.
C’mon guys….
It’s totally unfair to be mocking MMGW’ists on this until they have had time to consult their exalted and all-powerful Jupiter climate computer models.
The ‘crystal balls of science’ as it were.
Sigh…
John – why must every discussion with you devolve to explaining the obvious context?
(a) The “everything is climate change” meme is stupid – see title, click link…think.
Jupiter Too, eh !? More “work for Maurice Strong, Gore, Suzuki.
I heard just the other day that because of this climate change issue, the price of gas in the vicinity of the red spots has gone up by 65%. There is now a mass political campaign afoot to reduce the effects of joviogenic global warming. The average Jovian apparently isn’t buying it, especially with renewed calls to increase their gas tax.
By Jupiter in the heavens, she’s going to explode I tell you!!
By JOVE we’ll have some global warming justice now!
Call me a “sun spockian” when it comes to global warming/cooling. This is much more satisfying that being a “LUNARTIC”.
Exxon better shut down their refineriers on Jupiter and send them back to earth where they are needed.
MORE CO2 makes for happier forests which in turn produces more O2. I think I can calm down now and keep breathing. Whew.
Lets start up a tree planting credit market. Breathing is a human right isn’t it? Maybe we should ask the CHRC!
Cheers
Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht
Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
Let’s see, Jupiter with no people, no fires, no cars, no carbon fuels is warming up. Geez, perhaps the GW religion lemmings are going to have to rethink that maybe, just maybe, the sun is heating up our solar system, and, when that dies down we’ll have our next Ice Age.
But, don’t count on this uncomfortable piece of information to jar the mind of the GW religion lemmings into doubting their central spiritual tenent that not the sun, but, only we human sinners are playing havoc with the climate. They are a lot like their 7th century Muslim counterpart, facts don’t matter, hard science is for the infidel.
John all that thoughtful analysis and you still don’t get it.
Let me just ask:
If all that is happenning on Jupiter, with no people on it, then why,here on Earth, do we blame climate change on people?
I-think-that-is-what-Kate-was-getting-at.
31072 Scientists say man made GW is a crock.
ttp://www.petitionproject.org/
I for one don’t believe it. My head hurts and my brain is starting to sizzle.
I KNEW that Hummer dealership on Jupiter was going to mean trouble…
Speaking of gas giants, what does Al Gore have to say about this?
This has GWB’s finger prints all over it. What is he up to?
Tenebris: Hey, I clicked the link to Kate’s H/T where the following was stated:
So I think that I can be forgiven if I missed the meme.
Regards,
John
Penny: which of my three points above do you not agree with?
Regards,
John
Bluetech: We don’t really know any of the details of what is taking place on Jupiter. For example it was only about 15 years ago that it was hit by Shoemaker Levy 9 and what did this do to the climate. On the otherhand, we do know significantly more about the climate on Earth.
Uncertainity on Jupiter does not necessarly translate to uncertainty on Earth.
Regards,
John
John Cross: What physical evidence convinces you that AGW is real? Where does the deep conviction come from? Perhaps by telling your story we can all learn.
John Cross: If I accept your post as fact, perhaps you can help me out. Do you want the earth to warm or cool? Please explain your answer because I am confused with the AGW postition on this. When AGWers were against warming I was in disagreement; but, if they are now against cooling we may have some common ground.
I blame the Martians.
The Jovian atmosphere was first observed at the height of the Little Ice Age. Earth has warmed since then; so, apparently, has Jupiter. The Great Red Spot has always been there.
Al Gore was right, global warming is causing more storms – on Jupiter.
Hey, Norwegian Nobel Committee, how about asking for that “Peace Prize” back from the fraudulent Al Gore?
JohnCross @11.37
I want to see the Cassini numbers for Jovian insolation. Remember, however, that it is not only direct solar irradience that affects the Earth, and Jupiter less. The Sun’s magnetic field injects enormous amounts of energy into the earth’s atmosphere, and maybe also into Jupiter as it is a very active planet, elecdtrically and magnetically. Further, as the Sun gets stronger or weaker (more or less active) so the heliopause moves out or in, shielding the solar system from less or more cosmic rays.
Sorry, don’t try to bamboozle me with kindergarten numbers when we don’t have a comprehension of the processes.
Someone here is playing dumb. It is not a brighter Sun – hotter hotplate – that is the mechanism that some claim is reponsible for the sun driving climate change on earth.
[Cosmic rays are deflected away from Earth by our planet’s magnetic field, and by the solar wind – streams of electrically charged particles coming from the Sun.
The Svensmark hypothesis is that when the solar wind is weak, more cosmic rays penetrate to Earth.
That creates more charged particles in the atmosphere, which in turn induces more clouds to form, cooling the climate.
The planet warms up when the Sun’s output is strong.]BBC
Kate has posted on this many times – it is impossible for anyone so “engrossed” in the debate here not to have picked up on that.
Lately, the sun’s solar cycle would indicate a cooling on earth.
Lately, the earth has been cooling.
Coincidence ??
Has this ever happened before ? Yes, many times.
The Maunder Minimum, The Little Ice Age, was not a happy time on Earth.
And, yes, someone will say, blah, blah that CO2 conc is rising and man is causing it.
Yes man is putting CO2 into our atmosphere. A very small amount in the scheme of things.
CO2 is a minor gas in the atmosphere – 0.03 percent. if we double it, 0.06 percent. big deal.
CO2 is a minor, GH gas.
Yes, a century ago, CO2 was at 280ppm.
Now, 380 ppm.
but, But, BUT – Dinoaurs, lush fern days, enjoyed CO2 at levels far greater than 1000ppm. And survived !! And Thrived !! For millions of years !!
Yet the warmongers think that higher CO2 is bad. How about trying lower ?
If CO2 levels were to fall to, say, 200 ppm, plant growth would suffer.
If CO2 fell to 160 ppm, or so, plant growth would stop. Then we ARE dead !
Careful what you ask for. After all, something caused a kilometer of ice over Canada only 10,000 years ago. If we would have been here, we would not be here. Suzuki does not like Man to be here, I know, but all his favourites would be squashed also 🙁
Preaching to the choir Ron. The believers aren’t listening.
They’ll never listen to us, but I think they’ll stop listening to the Suzuki sermon when their ecomomic situation starts to turn ugly.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I am a woman of this Earth, and plenty busy just trying to pay attention to what is happening down here! Did you see the latest Google Earth Climate View Layer?
http://lamarguerite.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/google-earth-view-of-climate-change-for-next-hundred-years/
John is always a little slow recognizing the obvious. After all, he has faith, absent any measurements, the cooler atmosphere heats the warmer earth.
John, hey, I didn’t scroll up before I posted, your points are well taken, but, grant me this, that the unscientific minions that have made GW their religion without the benefit of good science are fools.
I too have had a recent outbreak of red spots (allergies) that from here on in I deem to be the direct result of my personal climate change.
Penny: I think I agree with you. Anyone who accepts a scientific argument as absolute without any skepticism or thinking about it is a fool.
Regards,
John.
PS ol hoss, at least I can answer a simple question like what I see when I look at the ground. I am still trying to get you to answer that one.
“.. but I think they’ll stop listening to the Suzuki sermon when their ecomomic situation starts to turn ugly.”
Yes, but what they will strive for – everyone else may have their economic situation go bad – not theirs. Mo, Al, Dave will never be short of cash in their life times !
Past cool periods, identified with the late stages of the “Little Ice Age” and with the [Maunder and Dalton climate minima, closely correlate with low sunspot numbers (astronomers have kept close tabs on sunspots since Galileo’s time). Some solar-physicists are now saying if the current cycle doesn’t begin to produce spots soon, we can expect a cool-down like the 19th-Century Dalton minimum – or worse. Decades-long cooling in the past brought crop failures to Europe from repeated summer frosts and restricted growing seasons.] Leader Telegram
http://www.leadertelegram.com/story-opinions.asp?id=BGMHH9IPD4Q
ron in kelowna;
Your 8:30 post is well said. We are far closer to the low end danger point, as far as atmospheric CO2 concentrations are concerned, than we are to the optimum level for plant growth which is about 1000ppm.
The irony is that the don’t-care-for-humans-just-give-me-a-green-earth-types should be dancing in the streets at news of higher CO2 levels.
Hey Ron, did you know they used to try and predict commodities prices by watching sunspot activity? Later they decided sunspots had no effect on weather so no effect on crops. Now it seems they’re a predictor once again.
ahhhh, the natural universe.
John Cross
Nice spin, nice try.
When you have multiple planets all warming at the same time, there is obviously something that is causing it.
It is obviously not too many Hummers and Suburbans. It means that there is obviously some force that Al Gore and the climate frauds haven’t taken into consideration in their foolish computer models (golden equation of any model: Crap in, Crap out.) There is obviously a gap in the “scientist’s” knowledge that they don’t understand.
It is obvious to any reasonable, rational person that the alarmism of the “scientific” community has been artificially manipulated through peer bullying and government grant forcing (aka – tow the line or perish from lack of grants.)
This false “consensus” is the downside of the peer review process.
I personally blame Hanson for the lot of it. He should be charged with about 1000 criminal violations including treason then hanged.
The idea that the “debate is over” isn’t a scientific argument. It’s a statement of coercion and bullying. It’s a statement that warns any wayword scientist who is thinking of going against the grain of the consequences of “leaving the reservation.”
Warwick: I presented three points which I thought refuted the point that the sun was warming Jupiter. Can you dispute them? If not then I would say I was not the one engaged in spin.
Regards,
John
John Cross
It’s always fun to watch someone try to educate Kate and Kate’s little minions. But it tends to be a waste of time.
The fact that Kate’s minions believe that a cooler (or steady state ) sun is causing increased heating on Jupiter and by extension Earth is always good for a laugh.
Rather than actually learning something, they prefer to dump on people who have actually done research and quite probably know more about this than Kate and Kate’s minion do.
The ironic thing here is that when this all comes to a head and Kate and her minions see that they were wrong all the time, they’ll blames scientists for not raising that alarm sooner.
And the GREAT RED SPOT a enormous hurricane and JUPITER is farther away from the sun then earth its and according to the green freaks and AL GORE we were suppost to be having hurricanes far worse then KATRINA which proves AL GORE and the GREENS are just out of their minds and plan dishonest
Jupiter has a lot more surface area then the Earth, over a thousand times as large. Likewise it also has an enormous electro magnetic field. I once saw it described, if you could see Jupiter’s mag field it would appear twice the size of the full moon.
That makes it a very effective scoop, collecting up the solar plasma and funneling it into the planet’s poles.
Frankly speaking the eruptions of Io (surface temperature -143°C) and the fact they are electrically induced by the planet’s field are more telling then Jupiter’s sudden outbreak of measles.
John seems to be implying the planet is undergoing self-powered climate change. Since Jupiter’s internal energy is due to gravitational compression, a sudden change in weather would mean there were an appreciable change in specific gravity or total mass of the planet.
I suppose this could be possible. Perhaps Jupiter has been sweeping up a bunch of comets and asteroids. But since planetary collisions of this type are relatively rare, and since Mars, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Titan, Triton, Enceladus, and Earth are all exibiting heating in a close time frame, I think we can rule out added mass in the case of Jupiter’s climate change.
And two of Kate’s minions speak. Who knows what spurwing plover is dribbling about…other than its the basic right wing verbal vomiting.
As for papertigers assertions…yes Jupiter is larger than Earth…it’s also much farther from the sun than Earth is. This means the amount of sunlight intercepted decreses…as John Cross pointed out earlier in this thread…Earth get Approx. 1367 W/m^2 and Jupiter gets…50.5 w/m^2. Quite the difference regardless of size.
The Magnetic field is great for channeing charged particles. If your implying that these fields are channelling more charged particles into Jupiter you have to explain the distinct lack of Solar Activity…which would be the source of these particles. Can you?
As for Io…have you never heard of Tidal heating…
http://www.planetaryexploration.net/jupiter/io/tidal_heating.html.
As you are claiming that a bunch of planets are exhibiting “heating in in a close time frame” it is incumbant upon you to explain what the source of this heating is. And is this source of heating is solar in nature…then please give us the following…
1) the temperature change on these planets
2) change in solar flux that would cause this
3) what we would expect to the temperature on Earth if you fantasies are true.
Here’s an example…one denier opined that Pluto’s temperature increased by 3.5 degrees and that this was caused by an increase in the solar flux. Now by figuring out the solar flux on Earth and on Pluto, one can figure out what temperature change we should see on Earth if this was the case. Turns out we should be seeing over 20 degrees change…something we have not seen.
Of course, this involves Math and a little Physics…something Kate’s minions seem loath to actually understand.
Papertiger: I think we had this discussion before over here. If that was you then we can pick it up again either here or there (I would prefer there since Kate locks her boards after a week more or less). You never responded to my post (number 7). Do you now see your error when you say Well dang. Something doesn’t compute. How is 0.0033 W/cm2 “almost twice as much” as 55 W/m2?
Regards,
John
As you are claiming that a bunch of planets are exhibiting “heating in in a close time frame” it is incumbant upon you to explain what the source of this heating is.
Well no Murray, it isn’t incumbant upon me. I’m not advocating for a fundamental reordering of the worlds energy use, based on doctored data and ideology.
It’s up to you to tell me how global warming/climate change on all the other planets, is disconnected and in no way related to Earth.
Have fun.
John Cross, if you expand the scope of your website to include the ozone hole scare, I’ll come over directly.
You still haven’t answered how a gravitational compressed heating of Jupiter leads to warmer equatorial regions, when the poles of Jupiter are so much closer to it’s core. When you answer that one I’ll come pester you again.