Yaacov Ben Moshe examines the question of Israel’s will to survive. It’s a trait that’s not entirely evident these days.
My last post spoke to the way in which Israel’s public image has become compromised by the media’s constant compromise with evil. The mainstream media is, at this point, paralyzed by the, vertebra-popping, ligament snapping contortions it has put itself through to convince itself it is being “fair” when what has actually been needed was not fairness but honesty and accuracy. Fairness, as practiced by the media (as I show in that post) is neither honest nor accurate but a delusional attempt never to offend the most easily offended party even as it cares nothing about offending the most open and least easily offended party.
Is it not possible that the malaise of the Israelis is a product of the same process on a cultural scale? As Neville Chamberlain proved for all time, appeasement and compromise with evil is not prudent, it is wasteful and stupid. But, even worse than that, it is debilitating to the compromiser. It literally compromises his legitimate defense mechanisms and disarms his ability to act.
[…]
Could Olmert, Livni and their government possibly still have a forlorn hope of convincing the Arabs that Israel has the right to exist? In the entire history of the planet earth, rights without the exercise (not just the possession) of power has never availed anything for anyone. For a Jew, of all the perpetual victims, to think he will be the first case, is lunacy. Buy a history book. Look it up on the Internet. Ask any Arab.
Are they afraid of getting the Caliphateist Arabs (the world’s frothiest collection of rage-oholics) angry? Are they afraid of making refugees out of a people that has held that title as a holy sinecure for sixty years? The so called Palestinians are the most murderous, longest suffering, loudest complaining, least productive and most resistant to resettlement refugees ever. It would, perhaps, be more accurate to call them “aggressfugees”.
RTWT.
Does anyone sane on earth seriously believe that if Israel handed over the entire country to the Palestinians lock, stock and barrel that Islam would leave Jews alone?
Their hatred for the Jews goes far beyond land. There hatred for anyone goes well beyond its nations laws, history and governance. It’s all or nothing for Islam, a global Jihad that nothing short of the old strengths now lost in western nations will stop them. If anyone believes otherwise they are a fools. Ask any educated Muslims that have escaped to the west and now speak out against it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sruQcV0Oew
Only a politically correct fool can think that this is a negotiable debate with Islam. It’s simply a decision to live or die.
Sadly, Israel is not the same nation it was 40 years ago.
Like any other similar situation in history, when a remarkable nation or state did things beyond what anyone would have predicted, eventually decadence and “softness” sets in.
It is inconceivable to me that a nation of 5 million can forever fight off 300 million virulent, implacable enemies that surround it and who increasingly have the financial and technological resources necessary to fight on equal terms.
I cannot see how Israel will survive. The only question in my mind is whether it collapses in a South African fashion, or in a more explosive manner.
I think that the Arabs/Muslims have realized this as well. They smell victory. Through the UN, through our worthless morally equivalent media, and through the indocrination they have abused their children with for 2 generations, they are slowly wearing down Israel. And I think the process is accelerating.
No matter how much smarter and braver the Israelis are, sheer numbers and force of hatred will win the day.
In Israel, the lefties see an outlet for muslim agresssion.
This is why the left thinks it can court muslims in Europe and NA without any real concern for danger or blowback. In the back of the leftie mind they think that if the muslims turn up too much heat in Europe/NA then the anger can be re-directed somewhow to Israel.
Thus, this serves two main goals of leftie politics these days (besides the standard stealing money out of one’s pockets):
1) destroy Israel
2) undermine christianity in the west.
The problem is that the left hasn’t thought this through to the logical conclusion:
Knight 99 is bang-on: Who is left for the muslims to hate once Israel is gone??
This is the best article on the topic here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200505/schwarz
A topic that people often don’t talk about is the role of the israeli-arabs. They form 20% of the population of Israel and their share of Israel population is increasing.
They could outnumber jews within Israel in the next 100 years.When they form 30%, Israel will be defacto a binational.
Mark Steyn often talk about Europe becoming Islamic soon but he rarely mention Israel.
In the meanwhile Canada’s francophone population is going down.. sh!t i hate that.
Kori: I cannot see how Isreal will survive…No matter how much smarter and braver the Israelis are, sheer numbers and force of hatred will win the day.
Though, in purely human terms, you would seem to be right–and it certainly looks like the Israelis have overwhelming odds against them–the Jewish Scriptures reiterate, again and again, God’s salvation plan for them.
Read, for instance, Jeremiah20: 10-13, today’s reading in the Christian Churches:
But the Lord is with me, like a dread warrior;
therefore my persecutors will stumble, and they will not prevail.
This isn’t the first time the Israelites have been beset around with enemies. There IS a spiritual power beyond our human weaknesses.
And those of us who can, need to defend their right to exist.
Sorry batb. I am not a believer in those things. They offer me no comfort or optimism.
Fewer and fewer people are defending Israel. National demographics change. Israeli haters reach public office more and more. And the media continues its relentless and unjust demonization.
Amen, batb.
And, yes, the ultra religious Jews in Israel can also be a real problem re Israel’s security. However, I also think the ultra secular mode of most of the state of Israel—apparently their Supreme Court is even more liberal than those of Canada and the US (Robert Bork)—leaves them very vulnerable to the lefty “disease”—literally, uneasy about their success—which leads to appeasement of the worst kind of the worst elements.
Like you, batb, and Kate, I just don’t seem to have it in me to berate my forebears, about whom I’m very proud: they were decent, educated, Christian people (DWBMs—Dead White British Males—with strong wives and daughters), who helped to build this country into the fine democracy it once was. I make no apologies for the achievements of their public lives because none are needed.
I have a theory: practising, individual Christians and Jews are very aware of the need for personal holiness and obeisance to G_d. They acknowledge that they are far from perfect and that they need G_d’s mercy to live the kind of life, an unselfish one, they are called to live. Examination of conscience, in light of G_d’s quite demanding Commandments, is part of their spiritual and psychological make up. Both asking for, and receiving, G_d’s forgiveness, which takes honesty and courage, is a very good way to assuage guilt. It’s also very healthy psychologically and helps one to make amends and move on.
In the past, whole nations and observant Jews in their communities lived with this mode of thinking. Not any more. The atomized individual, rights and entitlements thoroughly unmoored from any sense of responsibility and enshrined in Charters, have turned us into societies full of selfish, me-first, non adults. I believe that this kind of personal living is quite against our nature: we are not meant to live as selfish little units of rights-bearing automatons. In such a society, the idea of obligation to a higher power, G_d, and, by extension, one’s neighbour, is quite foreign. (As a teacher, I can only think of ONE of my students, out of hundreds, in the last 20 years who was truly, naturally, altruistic.)
This means that the modern person bears a great deal of spiritual and psychological weight on our own shoulders: look at the self-help industry, running as fast as it can to try to relieve us of these very real burdens. However, the self-help gurus, usually barking up the wrong tree, are unable to reach our spirits—self-help schemes usually make the mistake of simply making us more self-centred—or provide both the sense of community and absolution we really need.
So, then, what happens to our sense of guilt? It doesn’t just go away. I believe that the self-hatred and guilt of much of the West has very much to do with projection: no longer having, or even understanding or wanting a valid outlet—humility, honest self examination, confession, and absolution, which are all carried out, individually and communally, within religious Christian and Jewish communities—the guilt is projected outward. (Not having fallen for the liberal Zeitgeist, perhaps non religious libertarians are still protected by the remnants of the moral capital from our religious forebears: let’s remember that the foundations of the “just, free and equal” society are Judeo-Christian.)
I believe that the secular state has everything about backward: the individual, now a tolerant hedonist, is propped up and lauded at the expense of the community. Then things begin to rot from the soft centre out. Who was it who said that strong nations aren’t destroyed from the outside but, instead, with bread and circuses to appease them—which is why they’re so willing to appease others—they commit suicide.
IMO, the West is well into that process. Kyrie eleison.
you might want to read a bible. when the shit hits the fan in israel, and it will, what is said in the bible will be very important.
batb: Thank you that was said very well. Yes, God has promised to never forsake the Israelis.To those who have no belief in God then this means nothing and they think that all can be accomplished through negotiation. The Israelis have faced enemies all through their history and will until the return of the Messiah. That will be a pretty shocking day and remember that as Israel goes so go the rest of us.
Well my money’s on the Jews.
They won’t roll over.
If Islam attacks Israel with nukes, it’s over for Saudi Arabia and Iran, Syria, and Pakistan.
Israel will unload on their nasty beards with everything they’ve got .
I believe the Islamotards know that we’re softer, and that we can be bullied further, and therefore are far more likely to be hit by a dirty bomb in Europe or in NA.
It is us here in North America that will pull our punches and invade with hundred of thousands of our military and our queen of Marksbury rules , when we get hit again.
We should have already made it abundantly clear to every sand eating idiot that wants jihad, that we will send everyone he has ever met in his life into the afterworld and we will destroy Islam.
But we have’nt.
Israel’s apparent lack of will to survive seems to be a trait shared by all modern Western societies.
This letter from a fan of Mark Steyn’s at his web site seems a propos to this thread:
“A TRAITOR TO REASON
“I’m a long time reader of all of your writing, and a great fan. Having grown up in Iran, and now witnessing the cultural suicide here in Europe, I’m immensely grateful for your clear headed and courageous writing against all the odds.
“I clicked from your site through to Paul Currion’s blog, and noticed that there were no comments on his recent attack piece. I therefore posted the following. I wonder if it’ll still be there tomorrow? Here’s the text of my post for what it’s worth.
‘I’m an Iranian living in London. As an apostate, Islam condemns me to death, and it ain’t a nice place to be. Whilst you and your progressive mates culturally cringe and do your self-loathing multi culti dance, me and millions of other victims of the vicious, uncompromising and totalitarian ideology of islam have to fight against not only islamism, but the wretched, ad hominem spouting, apologists from the modern left. I’m with Steyn all the way. You can stick with your cowardly defence of supremacist ideology and keep sucking the lemons. But drop the moral self righteousness, bro, you’re a traitor to reason.’
“Keep up the great work, Mark
“Tim Yousef Mirsadeghi
Greenwich, United Kingdom”
batb: Thank you that was said very well. Yes, God has promised to never forsake the Israelis.To those who have no belief in God then this means nothing and they think that all can be accomplished through negotiation.
___________
Well, that negotiation mumbo jumbo is not where I am coming from. It’s not my opinion. Negotiation with an implacable enemy who thinks they have nothing to lose by maintaining the current state of things, and expects victory in time, is futile.
The hope here can only come if the Arab states realize that a continued war is not in their interests. Right now the war with Israel costs them nothing but oil money, which they have to spare, and Pali lives, which they care nothing about. Why should they stop?
The only way to make it in their interests to stop the war is for the West to wake up from its suicidal multiculti moral relativistic torpor, and make it clear to the Arabs and Muslims that we see their lies, their hypocrisy, and that they longer have any place in our part of the world unless this situation is resolved. No business, no education, no travel, no nothing. Simultaneously, we support Israel to the fullest of our ability, and rewards those states which do the same.
And if Israel launches a war against whatever local power or terrorist threatens it, the West supports it in every way possible short of men on the ground.
Fat hairy chance, huh?
I don’t think it is possible to negotiate with the death cult of islam. If Israel goes down, we are next. Israel understands islams thirst for blood, they won’t go down without a fight. It is a horrible truth, but one that we know is happening. There are many in the west that would let islam destroy Israel before they are willing to understand what exactly that means.
The West has the means, but until it has the WILL to defeat the jihadists, which means backing an equally conflicted and afflicted Israel–by the multi-cuilti, equality hand cuffs lefty societies handicap themselves with–we’re vulnerable, and victory is no foregone conclusion.
What a mess.
Lori>
“Like any other similar situation in history, when a remarkable nation or state did things beyond what anyone would have predicted, eventually decadence and “softness” sets in.”
I couldn’t agree more. Who are the creators of this “decadence and softness”? The liberal left of course. They are a plague that arises with all successful societies; Rome was a well-recorded poster child. Once the nation building is complete they crawl out of their closets to impose their fantasy lives on the unaware and uncaring masses going about their lives. The results of which is now history.
Honey Pot>
“If Israel goes down, we are next”
I agree with everything you said but that statement. Semantics of course but we aren’t “next” they are actively attacking us now, and on all fronts, politically, militarily and through mass immigration to displace the indigenous populations and religions.
A spark within Israel sad to say leading to an all out war would probably be the best thing for us all. Far better I think than a slow suicide over the next few decades resulting in the enslavement of our heirs.
Yes, the West has the will to resist.Yes, we have the technology that will enable us to win in any engagement.
However, our ‘will to win’ will only come to the forefront when we directly (and schockingly) have our nose not just bloodied, but our jaw broken and our face lacerated.Only the clarifying pain of a sudden and vicious attack will wake us from our slumber and rile our passions.
9-11 was but a slight cuffing of the ears..cowardly and treacherous though it may have been, it was but a prelude , a signpost for what lays on the road ahead.
The sooner we wake from our slumber , the better off we will be be.If it means taking out our nemisis from without and within , so be it.If you are a western fifth columist, and you sleep with the enemy, it will be sorry days for you indeed.If it means the destruction of historic and symbolic areas, so be it.
They started it.We will end it.It will be nasty and dirty this coming fight, but that is just the way we Canadians like it.
Much to their chagrin, our enemies will find this out the hard way.
kursk, I partly agree with you (or would like to), except that we don’t YET have the will to fight. You said we did and then, correctly, used the disclaimer “However . . . ”
That said, maybe we do or maybe we don’t have the will to fight back. I don’t see any inevitability about this. We’re pretty soft here in the West and are definitely a civilization on the way down. Watch “Rome”: we seem to be at the “Bread and Circuses” stage. E.g., The fact that there are so many Canadians, who have been willingly duped by the Liberals, whom they see as their passport to more bread and circuses, is truly disheartening.
From what I see in the public school system and in society at large, where feelings trump truth and reality all the time—and I mean nearly all the time—the triumph of reason and decency is not a foregone conclusion. Really, I don’t think I share your optimism. I hope I’m wrong.
Lookout, I agree that the parallels to Rome are many:
The change from a democracy where citizens participated to a democracy of the elite
The “bread and circus” thing is painfully obviuos in our current society.
The change in the Roman army from all citizens to a predominantly mercenary army.
The increasing use of “buying off” the enemy rather than fighting them down.
The decadence in in the major cities, the out-of-touch rulers.
Rome ultimately was brought down by external forces preying upon a weakened Rome. In fact there was a plague across the Roman empire around 200 AD which supposedly killed nearly half the population! Could a bird flu plague, or simply the plague of obesity and diabetes in our overfed population be the equivalent.
The parallels are many, and depressing.
I’m with you, Lori!
The problem is that there are many in the west who chose not to believe in the barbaric and oppressive nature of the death cult of islam. They believe the foundatiion of it must be peaceful. They don’t understand its inherent violent nature. The only way to fight islam is by lowering our sense of civility, and fairness, to become like them. No mercy, just take them out. Israel nor the west have the stomach for that, but it looks to me that there is no other way.
Frenchie77>
“The problem is that the left hasn’t thought this through to the logical conclusion”
Also bang on! I would submit in addition to your point, that the left is incapable of the logical thought necessary to rationalize this danger. I don’t intend that comment to be a smear as much as a biological point, a legitimate mental illness if you wish.
Stacked against the odds of Liberal lefty numbers in today’s western societies due to the fattened complacency of wealth and success, logical governing is not at our disposal anymore.
The mentally ill children who have been running this circus for the last 30 years now need to be put to bed for the night, so that the adults can get on with the business of protecting them. Tantrums or not this is not a time anymore to coddle the wailing infants, for everyone’s sake.
Honey Pot writes, “The only way to fight islam is by lowering our sense of civility, and fairness, to become like them.”
I don’t think so. Even if we hit our Muslim enemy quite mercilessly, it wouldn’t be an offensive hit, out of decadence and a sheer, religious delight in control and slaughter, as the jihadists do, but, with some regret, IN SELF DEFENCE.
Honey Pot, there’s a huge difference, both ethically and practically.
Lookout>
In defense of Honey Pots comment
“lowering our sense of civility, and fairness”
I don’t feel needs to be a military matter alone. Less “tolerance” for them screaming for our heads on our streets for one – Deportation without exception.
Stop pandering to their whims and wishes debilitating our freedoms, rights and cultures bit by bit. Refuse changes within our societies by their request or false claims as “victims’ deserving more – Again deport them.
I actually don’t believe we need to fight a bloody battle. Some battles may be required, for defense, but not as the main means of victory.
I think that a firm West, which rejects the backwardness of Islam and the Arab world, which refuses to kowtow to their money,which does not tolerate their ignorance, would triumph without much or any bloodshed. They would collapse from within as communism did.
The West is so superior economically, militarily, intellecutally, that the ONLY way this primitive ideology can survive is through the active of the West’s fifth column of liberals, bleeding hearts, and anti-democracy anti-capitalism activists.
That is the difference lookout. There is no regret in islam, no mercy. We are fighting an insane enemy, a rabid dog. You don’t try to lure a rabid dog back into the barn, to infect the other animals. You shoot it, and put it out of its misery.
Knight 99, I definitely agree with less tolerance for radical Islam in our society. Forget all the ridiculous appeasement and caving. And let’s start telling the truth about their motives and actions for a change.
But with the weasel behaviour of the MSM and the political correctness of almost every institution in this country, it’s hard to know how resolve, truth telling, and guts will come out of hibernation and prevail.
And, remember, the generation coming up are being thoroughly brainwashed. As I said, what a mess.
I posted this in the tips, but it seems relevant here too. Sorry about the double post.
Here’s a part of our future:
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/45891/7ba9e370/mocro_s_schoppen_kaalkopjes.html
Watch it before it gets taken down. This comes from Brussels Journal
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3090
and I can’t vouch as to the accuracy of the description, but from a look at the video it seems reasonably clear that some non-Dutch individuals are intimidating, then beat up a couple of Dutch guys, supposedly over the Geert Wilders controversy.
Meanwhile, you can hear some subway rider screaming in the background.
Our future?
lookout>
I agree with your post 100%. Thank god for the blogosphear.
The fact is Islam is the worst, most murderous and corrupt ideology ever foisted on man. It is not centralized, so therefore it cannot be reformed. Besides, how do you reform an ideology whose very founder is one of the worst, if not the worst war criminal and monster in history? What possible precedent is there for reform of such an ideology of hatred, invented by a monster?
Islam is not a race, it is not a colour, it is an idea. People can reject an idea.
Further, it is not rational to tolerate absolute evil, let alone negotiate with it. That is the quandary the west and Israel is in.
If we have any doubt about what Muslim plans are for the jews, than we had better start paying attention to what their leaders and scholars are saying. Like this filth, for example:
“Saudi Scholar Dr. Walid Al-Rashudi: 50-60 People Perished in Jewish Holocaust. The Killing of All the Jews Will Not Be Satisfactory Compensation for the “Real Holocaust” in Gaza,” from MEMRITV (thanks to Barbara):
Following are excerpts from a speech delivered by Dr. Walid Al-Rashudi, head of the Department of Islamic Studies at King Saud University, Saudi Arabia, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on February 29, 2008.
Walid Al-Rashudi: One of the important things that we must tell people is that what is going on in Palestine today is a real holocaust. This is the real holocaust. A holocaust is not the burning of 50-60 Jews in Germany or Switzerland, but the Jews continue to call it the Holocaust. In case you don’t know, let me tell you that more than 90% of the Muslims in the world do not know that the Jews receive reparations from Germany and Switzerland for the so-called Holocaust affair. We believe that there was indeed a holocaust, but how many died? 50-60 people? Afterwards, they used it to blackmail these two countries.
So what are we supposed to say in the face of the Gaza holocaust? What compensation will satisfy us? By Allah, we will not be satisfied even if all the Jews are killed.
—————–
How many times does it need to be said? It is written in their trilogy, it is incorporated in their law, they are carrying out allah’s orders. It is madness to negotiate with absolute evil and expect a civilized outcome.
irwin daisy>
My point number #1 on this thread is a mirror of your sentiments.
Lori, I thought as you did at one time. I thought if islam was introduced to the civilized world, its followers would want that. The horrific brutality and oppression that islam metes out to its own followers, makes me understand that it is a hopeless cause. They joyfully give their children’s lives up in the name of allah. It is a sick twisted death cult that must be stopped by any means.
Honey Pot… I’m not thinking that religious Muslims will want our freedoms and riches and give up their ideas in return. They seem far too indoctrinated for this. I don’t think we can overcome something that has been ingrained from birth. However, I don’t think we need to make war upon them unless they make war upon us. They can choose how they want to live, and we need to choose that we want no part of their ideas or way of life.
I would simply make it clear that the West is an “Islam free” zone. That life in this part of the world is incompatible with Muslim teachings and practices. No mosques, no islamic education, no tolerance of Islamic practices, from head coverings to Eid celebrations, to halal butchery.
Don’t like it? Leave. Don’t come.
We don’t trade with them, we don’t educate them in our universities, we don’t invite them to work in our companies.
They have dozens of countries they can live in, some very wealthy. If their way of life is superior to our own, it will become apparent after a couple of generations that we are all wrong, and we can all convert to Islam at that point.
We also make it clear that any attempt to encroach or invade Western lands will be met with the full strength of the West.
Lori>
Again agree with you comments but one small point:
“I don’t think we need to make war upon them unless they make war upon us.”
They have clearly and with extreme prejudice already made war on us!
Knight99, what war did they make upon us?
9/11? I would suggest that we cannot hold the entire Muslim world responsible for that. We did hold the Taliban responsible for it, and removed them.
We did not hold Saudi Arabia sufficiently responsible for 9/11, and that seems to be because the current American leadership is in love with Saudi oil money. However, truth is that Bin Laden would be arrested and executed if he was caught there. He has spoken as strongly against the Saudi leaders as he has against the West.
The only real war that is being made upon us a demographic / social war. I propose we fight it back in a demographic / social manner.
Lori>
“The only real war that is being made upon us a demographic / social war. I propose we fight it back in a demographic / social manner”
That was your point I was supporting in a limited way.
Lets, not forget though that besides the obvious overt physical attacks of 9/11 there has been bombings of busses and trains in England and Spain along with other less reported arson attacks throughout Europe. There are entire communities on fire in France and the Scandinavian countries complete with “NO GO” zones across Europe for indigenous Europeans including fire, ambulance and police services. There are Muslim youth mobs cornering European youths outside of nightclubs, beating young males to death or near death and gang raping European women in mass. I won’t post visual links to the atrocities because they are widely available on the web to “see with your own eyes”. If that’s not war what is?
Their Imams openly advocate violent hate speech to their flocks without western opposition and the enforcement of our own hate laws, even boldly taking it to the streets with bullhorns uncontested.
Our newspapers and media have been bullied and scared to silence, a genuine fear proved through assassinations of editors and death bounties placed on the heads of novelists.
What more needs to be proven to western societies that they are indeed embroiled in a full-scale war. Simply because B52 bombers are not flying overhead and dropping 500 ton bombs on our cities doesn’t make it less so. This war better resembles a biological war where the population is destroyed through germ warfare leaving the cities semi intact for the invaders.
What about the back page news in Canada where Muslim terrorist operations have been busted with plans to attack Canadian targets and our parliament?
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/06/03/canada.terror/index.html
This is indeed war, and the more we idly sit by and hope it goes away, the less and less opportunity we will have to defeat this enemy in our midst.
Lori,
They have been making war on dar al Harb ever since the bastard ideology was invented. After conquering Spain they were stopped at Poiters by Carl the hammer. And then stopped again at Vienna in 1683. Their current war is a many pronged attack.
You should read Dr. Andrew Bostom. IMO, he, Robert Spencer and Ibn Warraq have the best understanding of what Islam represents and how it must be dealt with. Besides his website and books, Andrew Bostom has an excellent current article here:
frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=A328BB20-3674-4896-8102-D770856D93EB
The majority of Muslims are nominal only. Born Muslim. It is this group that needs to be informed of the truth of Islam and provided safety in rejecting it outright. An army of apostates equipped with truth to defeat the lying Islamists is what is required.
Both the spreading of the truth and ridicule/shame is what Islamists fear the most. This is their Achilles heel.
Lori, the war of Islam against the infidel has been going on, in one way or another for centuries. 9/11 was just one of many other atrocities against the US in the preceding 20 years. I’m surprised that you seem unaware of this.
Indeed, Winston Churchill had it figured out over 100 years ago. Here’s a quote:
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
“The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
“A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
“Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.
“No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.
“Sir Winston Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 [London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899]).”
Regarding the place of Christianity as a force to counter Islam—acknowledged by Churchill in the above quote—I notice that no one has touched with a ten foot pole—indeed, a zero foot pole!—my linking of the loss of faith in Christianity in the West with the willingness of the West to appease Islam and fight it, when we do, with our hands tied behind our backs.
At 9:30 a.m. today I wrote, “So, then [without religious faith], what happens to our sense of guilt? It doesn’t just go away. I believe that the self-hatred and guilt of much of the West has very much to do with projection: no longer having, or even understanding or wanting a valid outlet—humility, honest self examination, confession, and absolution, which are all carried out, individually and communally, within religious Christian and Jewish communities—the guilt is projected outward . . .
“I believe that the secular state has everything about backward [and to do with our capitulation]: the individual, now a tolerant hedonist, is propped up and lauded at the expense of the community. Then things begin to rot from the soft centre out. Who was it who said that strong nations aren’t destroyed from the outside but, instead, with bread and circuses to appease them—which is why they’re so willing to appease others—they commit suicide.
“IMO, the West is well into that process. Kyrie eleison.”
With due respect, I believe that the silence about religious faith, e.g., Judaism and Christianity, on this thread and beyond is part of the “hear no evil, see no evil” fiction the West relies on, to what good? Our lack of conviction is pervasive and, I believe, has everything to do with our loss of religious faith.
In The Abolition of Man, C.S. Lewis wrote, “We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and then bid the geldings to be fruitful.”
To me this perfectly describes our ethically hollowed out and hedonistic Western societies. Do we really expect that people will continue to have altruistic allegiances when the foundation for such a difficult—yes, it’s difficult—choice is removed and counterfeited as freedom?
I think I’m telling the truth. Just look around.
Knight99. From my view, bus bombings, nightclub beatings, brainwashed hormonally deranged teenagers plotting to blow things up (most likely themselves)…. etc etc, are not war. They are crime. Subject to prosecution and upon conviction – deportation or jail time (if they were born here…. I guess we can’t deport them).
That’s what I regard as a social solution. Society makes the rules, and those who break them have consequences to deal with.
The imams preaching their hate will have no place to do so, since Imam preaching will not be permitted. If they do, it is against the law of the land, and so adios.
And yes, Irwin Daisy, because it will be acceptable to open and publicly discuss the failings of Islam as a way of life and as a societal basis, the spreading of truth and shaming that you mention will occur. Of course I have read Robert Spencer and others…
I don’t begrudge the Muslims the right to live their life the way they want in their own land. But not in my land.
Basically, I am advocating for the abolition of multiculturalism and replacing it with “Westernism” – the policy which states proudly that Western capitalistic individual-rights-oriented democracy is currently the superior ideology on the planet, and the best hope for the future of humans on Earth.
Let the marketplace of ideas, of economic reality, and of human nature be the judge of which way of life is superior.
Knight 99,
We have similar viewpoints. We educate ourselves and then, hopefully, educate others, or at least create enough curiosity that they might educate themselves. There’s enough whitewashing going on, such as ‘Islam has been hijacked,’ ‘it’s one of the great Abrahamic faiths,’ ‘it brought great learning and culture to the world,’ and it’s really, honestly a ‘religion of peace,’ no, really.
Islam must be exposed for the rot that it is. Unfortunately, we have the added tedious job of cutting through all the vacuous, feel good memes and do gooder cultural theories in order to do so.
Lookout, sorry I did not see your long post before my own.
Clearly we come at this in different ways. I have no religious faith. You are suggesting that the only way to fight one religion is with another. I don’t think so.
To me, the American constitution, and especially the writings of Jefferson, are the wisest things I have read about governance of society.
Although I do not deny that they, like any men of their time, were religious in the sense that they believed in a god, I do not believe that the geniuses who wrote the US constitution were guided by faith. Quite the opposite, it is trivial to find many quotes by Jefferson and his contemporaries which were wary of the effect of religion (as distinct from god), and cautioned of the need to not permit it power of governance.
So, let me throw in my own quote, by Jefferson:
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.”
Lori, it’s folly to treat the Muslim atrocities in the West as simply criminal activity. Do you really think such atrocities are not connected to jihad?
You realize, I guess, that when jihad—holy war—happens in a place like Canada—the 17 young men “with no distinguishing common feature” (they were all Muslim) who wanted to behead the PM—the suspects get full Charter rights, including the right to due process, guaranteed to all charged with a criminal offence. Try deporting people like that. And, considering that they’re guerrilla fighters—terrorists—they should forfeit Geneva Convention privilege. Your scenario would give murderous, jihadi thugs the full rights of citizenship. Yikes!
In this day and age of instant communication and atomic bombs, etc., the idea that we can live our lives here and they, many of whom consider it an honour to kill us, will peacefully live their lives there—“I’m OK, you’re OK”—is naive in the extreme. Also a very dangerous fantasy.
Lori>
“From my view, bus bombings, nightclub beatings, brainwashed hormonally deranged teenagers plotting to blow things up (most likely themselves)…. etc etc, are not war. They are crime”
Then we differ dramatically on our views of the world and the threat to western culture and society.
You need to appreciate where these “deranged teenagers” get their hatred and philosophical justifications of their actions from.
They are child soldiers of an oppressive army with a billion and a half potential recruits. These are not street thugs hassling pedestrians for kicks or a little pocket money, they are part of a worldwide campaign to humiliate and suppress the west, organized and well funded. These youths are the street level pushers of that campaign; the beatings and the rapes are a deliberate humiliation to debase, subjugate and spread physiological fear as well as physical cowardice through intimidation.
This war is waged on all levels; the greatest weapon they use is deceit and misinformation. It is an old war well executed by Islam and the modern west is being literally led as lambs to the sacrificial slaughter.
No, I’m not saying to fight one religion WITH another. I’m saying that the cojones needed to fight a hard war seem to be linked to religious faith.
Though they were religious, I don’t believe that my father and grandfathers, who, like most young men of their generations fought another evil enemy, were “priest-ridden”. I think such a formulation is simplistic and not true.
The new religious faith of the West is the deification of the individual who is in possession of unlimited rights: arguably, this is worse than priest ridden. It’s also made us infantile and soft. Try fighting a determined and ruthless enemy when people would rather sleep in.
Lori, your posts are thoughtful, but I’m totally with lookout and Knight 99 here: Islamist jihadists are not committing only crimes, for which, I suppose, we could prosecute them–but, will we?
Their sole purpose is to kill the Infidel: that’s you and me: that’s you, who are not religious, and I, who am, but neither of us are Muslims, neither of us belong to “the Religion of Peace” (sic), so we’re both fair game.
The Islamofascists are waging a Holy War: Jihad. If we in the West fail to understand this, we’ve already lost the war–and I’m afraid that’s exactly where we’re headed–as Knight 99 says, like lambs to the slaughter.
Is that what we want for ourselves and our children? Should we live as though we have no enemy in our midst, only criminals?
I most like this line from Shakespeare:”Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.” Not everything can be all sweetness and light.
Knight99 – I guess I did not get my point across. I am extremely and painfully aware of how our current system is creating a safe harbor for people to hate us to build up their power and violence against us. I am definitely not in the “I’m OK you’re OK camp”.
But, I am trying to figure out a way to deal with this that does not turn us into monsters or murderers or hypocrites.
I agree that if we continue to treat practitioners of Jihadi crime as “ordinary” criminals, as we do now, subject to full protection by Western law, then we are doomed.
Our problem is that through Multiculturalism it has become impossible to criticize the social fabric woven by another culture, and to construct barriers against destructive influences, no matter how obvious the negative effects may be.
I see Multiculturalism as the great evil. So, let’s take it away, and replace it with “Westernism”. The hate crimes based on Islamic teaching would not be treated as matters of regular law, but with prejudice AGAINST their practitioners. First of all, there would be no mosque for them to be indoctrinated at because there are no mosques in a Westernism practicing nation. There would be no hate-teaching Imam because Imams are not allowed in a Westernism practicing land. If someone practices Islam privately, we can’t really persecute that, but if they commit a crime and use that as justification for any action, then they have already indicated that they are guilty of going against Westernism, and hence are guilty.
I’m just going with this notion off the top of my head… I’m not saying every aspect of this approach has been considered in detail. But the core problem is that I see the #1 problem to be the permissive and self-destructive environment we have created. I want to take away the environment, and then see what’s left.
I would predict that once the Islamists realize that the West has had enough, has got no tolerance for them any more, and is no longer apologizing for its greatness, nor interested in engaging the Muslim world until it has civilized itself, the nature of the conflict will change totally.
The US constitution was mainly written and signed by Deist Masons, informed by a largely Protestant population. It is a wonderful compromise and still the best document on the true meaning of democracy and the legal recognition of free will ever created. Still, what Lookout is saying, if I understand correctly, is that humanity has an inherent need for God. And that secular atheism/materialism is not enough of an inducement and cannot fill the void if a Muslim were to leave their faith.
This is why Christianity, more so than any other religion, is despised and oppressed, if not illegal in all majority Muslim countries. And for good reason, google the conversion rates.
Lori, I agree.
At the moment, and perhaps only at this moment, we have an opportunity to shut this down without much violence. However, I have no faith that common sense and historical fact will prevail over political ideology, propoganda, ignorance and greed.
Batb: I agree that many Muslims see themselves as waging a war against us, and that the sheeple in the West are unaware of this, and baring their necks for the slaughter.
We need to make this clear to as many people as possible. On that all agree I think.
The question is what you do after you have convinced a large majority of Westerners that Islam is a threat to the future of this civilization. Do you wage open war, or do you wage an aggressive self defense?
Some would argue that the best defense is a good offense, and go on the attack with the resources of the West at their disposal.
However, this is where I part ways. The West is so strong, and superior, in its philosophy as a way-of-life, and Islam so weak, that we do not need to go that route. Islam has been around for 14 centuries. Since the West rose through the industrial revolution, democracy, and capitalism, Islam has been increasingly insignificant in its impact upon human history. 1000 years ago, Islam and the West were roughly equivalent in power and influence. 50 years ago, Islam was insignificant, its lands divided up among many powers, its people poor and ignorant, whatever advancement they had, owing to British or French influences.
The change in that millennium demonstrates how weak Islam is. The main reason for its resurgence in the last 50 years is that the West is propping it up – financially through oil money, and socially through our morally ambivalent internal politics. Take these away, and Islam will fade into insignificance in 50 to 100 years.
Communism, 50 years ago, seemed unstoppable. Stalin killed 30 million people to advance communism in Russia. There were a billion communist Chinese out there to crush the West. But in 2 generations it was gone (as a national ideology) because it was so obviously inferior in the production of human wealth and happiness to Democracy and Capitalism. We never actually fought a real war against Communism. Lots of proxy wars, but mostly we won because communism was not a sustainable ideology, and because we finally stopped compromising with them.
I believe the same to be true of Islam.
Batb>
Well said and sensibly written.
Lori>
It sounds like we are back on the same page again.
I agree no one in his or her right mind wants to see our culture revert to a barbarism. There is also a difference between barbarism and the necessary strength to survive. Not dissimilar to tough love with children, or the ultimate challenge of survival or morality on a mountain top plane crash in the Andes. What would you do? Some will live and some will die.
We need to educate ourselves and understand our enemy clearly as pointed out by irwin daisy.
This particular enemy is devious and true to its purpose as a salmon making it’s way upriver to spawn. Islam’s purpose is either our genocide or complete enslavement to their laws and ideals. Nothing short of either will satisfy them, you cannot approach an enemy such as this with diplomacy once they are in your house. They smell the blood of our defeat now and are building their strengths on that perceived victory, emboldened each day with our weak understanding and “tolerance” of their ways.