David Warren;
I was not without sympathy for the “plight of the Kosovars,” however. Like virtually all journalists at that time, not of Serbian ethnicity, I fell for a great deal of typically Balkan propagandist rubbish that has since been quietly withdrawn.
My rule of thumb, on wars, is to fight them with your enemies, when absolutely necessary; but never with your friends, and in particular, never in order to create new enemies. True, as we all know from personal experience, sometimes your friends are more irritating than your enemies, and the temptation to bomb them is always there. It is a temptation that must be resisted, however.
I never went to Yugo, but I was in the army when that whole thing was going on. Everyone who I have ever talked about it with liked the Serbs more than the rest, even though they were being marketed as the bad guys. Its my understanding that when ever are guys had to fight (I could be wrong) it was against the Croats.
Well, as far as the Bosnia/Croatia campaign goes, Medak Pocket was a 3 day running battle conducted by our boys in Croatia, and it wasn’t the Serbs they were fighting against. It should tell you something when the only real battle we were involved in during the whole “war” was fought against the Croats.
There’s no “side” in that part of the world that’s totally guilt free, but when it came to supporting either the KLA or Serbia, it should have been a no-brainer. Yet NATO decided to bomb the Serbs, and prop up a well known Muslim terrorist organization. I’m surprised that Clinton didn’t go bomb St. Petersburg, and give weapons to Chechen rebels while he was at it.
Far be it from me to contradict minuteman’s anecdotal evidence with my own, but the Croats I have met are among the finest human beings I have ever known.
Yes. And I’m sure most of the German expatriates in the 1950’s were wonderful people too. That doesn’t mean that their government and military didn’t do some horrible things a decade earlier.
Flashback: “The Serbs rose.”
Two nations stood against the National Socialists, aka Nazis: Britain and Serbia. Then, the fury of the German ubermensch fell upon the Serbs.
…-
Excerpts from “The Serbs Chose War” by Ruth Mitchell
AT TEN-FIFTEEN on the morning of March 25, 1941, the news flashed: “Yugoslavia has signed the Axis pact.” It was a moment of destiny for Europe, for the world. It was a moment when the flame of freedom guttered so perilously low that many of the bravest spirits of our time averted their eyes, sure that it was now finally to be extinguished.
Then an almost incredible thing happened, a thing so important to the history of the world that freedom-loving men will speak of it with admiration and with gratitude down through the centuries.
The Serbs rose. A little race of not more than eight million souls deliberately, sternly decided to die rather than to submit to Axis vassalage. They were the only small race of Europe to come in openly on the side of the Allies before they were themselves attacked and while they still had promises of complete security of frontiers, of lives, and of property; the first and only small race themselves to declare war- a war they knew to be absolutely hopeless- against the invincible German war machine.
Why did they do it? What caused their decision? What has enabled them to succeed when other, larger, much better equipped peoples failed or didn’t even try? …-
http://tinyurl.com/2hwqj7 (serbianunity)
I am haunted to some extent by a conversation I had with a girl from the Balkans who worked briefly in our office years ago. A chance comment from someone set of a vehement retort from her, revealing a deep seated hatred of Moslems. Moslems, to her mind, are people you help when they are in trouble, and they move in along side you, work for you, obsequiously praise you as their friend, and quietly breed themselves into a majority. As they become the majority, they take over the police force, the army, and your property and your culture, and they are no longer your friend.
I don’t remember if she was a Serb or a Croat or a Montenegran or whatever – but in light of current events, her words continue to dance about in the back of my mind.
I don’t think that decisions about political identities and political authority over territories can be made on the basis of ‘who is a nice person’ and who is a ‘not nice’ person.
Equally, David Warren doesn’t provide any specific reasons pertaining to the region for his being against the separation of Kosovo, other than two more personal yet not fully articulated ones – his preference for the Christian authority over a territory rather than an Islamic authority, and his rejection of armed insurrection.
The latter is not the case in this instance – Kosovo didn’t fight Serbia. So, it’s the former – the Christian vs Islamic state.
I don’t think that this is a good enough reason to rejection Kosovian independence, ie, they ‘picked the wrong religion for independence’.
There is no inherent right of a particular spatial territory to belong to any particular people. Laying claim to that territory has, over the centuries, been by any number of factors: the first and most important, is economic occupation which transforms into political occupation by virtue of the necessity to make economic decisions in that territory.
Quite frankly, cultural or religious occupation is one of the weakest reasons; it can’t be sustained without an economy. Certainly, ethnic and religious identification is strong (eg, the conflict in N. Ireland between Protestant and Catholic) but underlying this conflict, is always an economic reality. What is of value in that area, and who controls it?
So, I don’t accept that the reason for Kosovian independence is religious and the reason for Serbian rejection, is religious. There’s an economic infrastructure here. Is it the mineral wealth of Kosovo? I’d be inclined to suspect this.
I don’t think that, in this era of global networking, that the older notion of large Nation-States, made up of smaller provincial territories, can necessarily be sustained. The 17th, 18th c rise of the large Nation-State was a political solution to the need to develop a large economic base.
But our modern global economy works very differently; it doesn’t work via Nation-States any more, but via vast interconnected production, service and consumption networks. The separate ‘nation-state’ simply is no longer viable. We are working towards a different global order, where the nation-states will devolve into smaller, more locally governed regions which are not isolate, but economically connected with each other in a global sense.
So, I see this as part of this new emerging world-order..and it will happen elsewhere. [No matter how much Putin tries to control the wealth of Chechyna for Russia].
Serbians, by the way, are not a ‘race’.
kakola…..why should anybody take the word of somebody who has first hand knowledge of what the muzzies do and are capable of? After all, she must just be a neanderthal,knuckledragging, redneck,homphobic, racist, Jew loving conservative. Personal experience? Huh. What’s that in the LaLaLand of the leftards? Just ask the Danes/Swiss/Brits/etc. Actually listen to FACTS? Bwhahahahahahaha
The whole lot of them over there (Serbs, Croats, Muslims, Kosovars, Montenegrins, and any other “isms” of the week) have been gleefully massacring each other for the past 1000 years, and they all suffer from the same sort of blind “collective memory”; if you ask any one of them why they hate group “x”, it’ll be because of something that not ONE of them was alive to see or suffer from, and they were simply indoctrinated from birth to hate that group (the same as with the Shiites and the Sunnis). They’re going to have to either learn to live together, or learn to live apart.
There seems to be a simple principle here. See if you don*t agree.
New borders compound hate and friction while improving nothing at all.
Border between Israel and Lebanon, still a growing cancer.
1947 Border in India creating Pakistan resulting in today*s nuclear stand off between the two.
The UN should rule that no new borders like the potential line across northern Iraq for the Kurds, be allowed.
Even the adjustment of fences along any border causes a friction conflict to heat up. US and Mexico.
Not much chance of an Ontario Quebec separatist border, fortunately for us. It would become a Caledonia / Orangeman / Quebec red tape war zone.
Borders for a separate Alberta would be an economic boom for the US. Everyone would dip below trough the USA coming and going. Many do that now. = TG
Obligatory disclaimer:
I have never met someone from teh Bal;kans who wasn’ty as fine a person that one could expect to meet anywhere.
That said, the Germans are to be held responsible for the current “malaise”, they encouraged the break up of yugoslavia and aided directly the slovenians, amopngst othersw. Why the EU got involved I dunno, but they ju7mped in and werer incapable of dealing with the problems so made recourse to the US military. NATO weas looking for a “role”.
So the upshot is that NATO has supported the ethnic clensing of Kosovo Christians and islamofascists are moving in with Saudi money.
Obligatory disclaimer:
Spelling is for idyits.
Ethnic/racial hatreds, they can’t get past it to live normal, peaceful, productive lives.
EVERYWHERE Muslims exist in this world we have turmoil. Look around and decide, do we want the same here?
It certainly appears they are not going to be satisfied with living a good life and contributing to our societies in the Western Democracies. They want to have their own ghettos to propagate, multiply through our porous immigration policies and eventually have power in numbers.
I’m not saying that it would be right to deny autonomy to the Albanian majority in Kosovo. I am saying that the West should have worked (and still should work) harder to find a solution that would be more acceptable to Serbia and its patron, Russia. And that would have been fairer to the Serb minority in Kosovo.
“””””Serbians, by the way, are not a ‘race'””””
me thinks disease woold be a better word, that goes for the croates and muzzies, macedonians, & montenagrens over there, and extends to many of those diseases over here, they just love to hate each other. The only terrorists I know over here are trained in Kanada croats and serbs!!
the USA should have bombed the works (all those fools) back into their caves.
felis corpulentis – I can’t think of any resolution that would be acceptable to both Servia and Kosovo, and Russia’s interest in Kosovo’s mineral wealth.
As for a decision that would be more fair to the Serbian minority in Kosovo (10%), the same would hold for the Muslim, Albanian minority in Serbia (20%). Not an easy situation for anyone.
I guess it’s needless to say that this is an extraordinarily complex issue that fans out of the region into the EU (will they have the guts to back up their support), Russia (to let it happen without supporting their Serb allies guarantees that unrest will break out in the muslim regions of Russia), and the US (they, like the EU, are backing the separation and to withdraw support would be a massive loss of face).
I am inclined to support ET’s position that cosmopolitan nation states may be on the wane. Perhaps facilitating free trade and globalization to grow a fast as possible will help reduce the shock and violence such political disintegration by replacing it with even stronger economic integration.
And then I think about regions of England like the town of Bradford which now apparently is mostly Muslim and how I might react if it and its surrounding area was to declare itself an independent Muslim sharis-law based state.
I have always supported Milosevic when he was killing Muslims. Anyone who is at war with Muslims is or should be our friend. Other differences pale in comparison to the Islamic threat to the free world.
David Warren now knows this and slowly others who prefer to not see war in the world will eventually come around to this thinking. I hope it won’t be too late.
Bush started out strong, but has shrunk in office to a that of a semi Liberal big spending yes man to the multi culters. Perhaps he likes the idea the goats are being sacrificed in his honor.
Or maybe oil is thicker than freedom.
Canada has not yet sanctioned the Kosovo detachment and should not. If Harper does this, then I suggest we start the break up this stupid country immediately. Why not? Western Canada has little in common with eastern or central Canada and Quebec has nothing in common with anyone.
There is a history in the Balkans that many don’t know about, or tragically, ignore.
The Islamofascist Ottoman empire was particularly nasty throughout the region, stealing Christian boys from their parents and enslaving them in their Janissary slave army, for example. Most of the killing was done by the Muslims, as is usual throughout history.
There was also a lot of Muslim attrocities commited against the Serbs during the last war, before and after the NATO intervention. Much of this under reported or not reported at all. The typical beheadings performed by Muslims was not uncommon. In fact, I recall reading an article about Albanian Muslims playing soccer with Serbian heads.
From Canada Free Press:
“While the national press provided glowing coverage of these demonstrations as proof that the “Kosovars” were adamantly pro-America, few media outlets took notice that the demonstrations were preceded by the sacking of Christian churches and the burning of thousands of Serbian books.”
“But book-burning is the least of the sins of our new friend and ally. The Kosovars have also sacked churches, raped nuns, and mass-murdered approximately 4,000 Christian Serbs in and around the town of Srebrenica and its adjoining towns and villages (Bratunac, Skelani, Milici, et al) as well as the town of Gorazde.”
“The Muslims wasted no time in exacting their pounds of flesh. More than two hundred Christian churches and monasteries were destroyed before the NATO peace-keeping force. Some of these Christian shrines, including the Devic Monastery, the Cathedral of St. George, and the Monastery of the Holy Archangels, had been built in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. Reports surfaced of mass executions of Serbian farmers, the murders of scores of priests, the rape of nuns, and “granny killings” – – the drowning of old Christian women in bathtubs.”
“Of the two hundred thousand Serbs who lived in Kosovo before the conflict, only four hundred remained after Kosovo became a NATO protectorate. The vast majority of the Christians had gathered their belongings and fled for their lives. The 400 Serbs who remained in Kosovo were sequestered in three gloomy apartment buildings, where the international police stood guard day and night.”
Serbian hatred of Muslims is well deserved, in my opinion.
I also do not agree with any new Islamic state, period. Or anything else that advances the “Islamic cause.” And neither should any rational, non-Muslim.
Former UN Ambassador John Bolton maintains that the creation of an independent Kosovo ‘will give a boost to Islam extremism.’”
Quite right.
“A recent Special Report from Defense & Foreign Affairs Daily has identified the source and type of the explosives used in the terrorist bombings in London and the Madrid railway bombings of March 2004. The report says the man at the center of the provision of the explosives in both instances was an Albanian operating out of Kosovo.”
Quite right, Irwin. After detailing al Qaida operations in Kosovo, Caroline Glick adds:
Kosovo’s Stark Warning
Supporters of Kosovo claim that as victims of “genocide,” Kosovar Muslims deserve independence. But if the Muslims in Kosovo have been targeted for annihilation by the Serbs, then how is it that they have increased from 48% of the population in 1948 to 92% today? Indeed, Muslims comprised only 78% of the population in 1991, the year before Yugoslavia broke apart.
In recent years particularly, it is Kosovo’s Serbian Christians, not its Albanian Muslims, who are targeted for ethnic cleansing. Since 1999, two-thirds of Kosovo’s Serbs – some 250,000 people – have fled the area.
TG, Ontario can be the “buffer zone”, when Quebec seperates. There won’t be an autopact, the CAW will be dead, and Ontario will beholden to Manitoba and the Republic of New France for hydro.
Interestingly Putin has threatened to interven on behalf of the Serbians….You know what, go ahead. I am tired of the US always being on the wrong side.
Want to see a military do brutal things, not the trunped up exceptions that happen in Iraq, just watch the Bear in action.
I cant help but think that part of the US bending over on Kosovar, my objection is that there hasnt even been a referendum, is that the saudi’s keep threatening more support.
I sure hope the US got something for doing what they did….if not it was a real shame.
I’m a rational, non-Muslim, irwin daisy, and I don’t argue for or against the independence of Kosovo based on their primary religion as ‘Muslim’.
If it chooses a democratic political system, the rule of law, and basic human rights – then, I consider the religion totally irrelevant.
I also think that Islam can, as a social and political mode, modernize. And, as an ideological and religious mode, it can change. You think differently, I know. So, we’ll have to ‘agree to disagree’.
gord tulk – yes, I think that the era of the nation-state is on the wane. With our modern electronic networking and rapid transportation, it couldn’t be anything different. However, we won’t see a ‘communist’ or homoegenous globe. Instead, I’m suggesting that what we’ll see is more regionalization, where the big nation-states will devolve/decentralized decision-making to local regions.
The reason for this is because the local regions can offer faster and more flexible and more locally relevant responses that a centralist national governance. These regions will, however, be connected to a larger domain – such as the European Union. Or Canada. Or the USA. Or a North American Union. The larger domain makes democratic decisions that pertain to the whole, not the region.
This means that smaller regions, such as Kosovo can emerge and function quite well within the whole. The focus isn’t on the National Power of Serbia. But on the global network which includes Kosovo and Serbia.
This devolution of the nation-state (which only developed in the 12th-14th c)…is ‘natural’.
ET:
I am reluctant to see a lot of smaller states ruled by an overarching bloc i.e. the EU where a non-elected or weakly mandated group of people make the rules. I would much prefer a GATT-type approach where smaller states can have more leverage and states the are geographically very separate but have similar interests can band together to support their mutual interests in trade talks – i.e. Canada and Australia on wheat exports.
Here’s a link to a video about the relationship between the Nazie’s and Balkan Mulsims:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f99_1185836519
gord tulk – yes, I absolutely agree with your argument against the non-elected nature of the EU. I agree that it’s not a correct model for what I’m trying to suggest.
I used it only to model a conglomerate of separate ‘parts’ that are, economically, technologically and in large part, politically, networked but that retain governance and decision-making over their interactions in a larger network.
However, the governance of this Larger Set of Subsets cannot be, as you critique, the current EU governance. For the very reason that it is, as you say, unelected and therefore unaccountable.
Yes, I like your suggestion of Canada-Australia. The thing is, in the forthcoming emerging global remodeling, space is no longer as definitive of political boundaries as it used to be. Time and space, now, are not relevant with regard to communications. Space will be reduced as technology advances further.
Therefore, the global network will indeed be made up of different types of ‘nets’ of connections. Those between similar interests; those between spatially close zones; those between ecologically similar zones; those between historically linked zones. These networks will intersect and overlap.
But the old nation-state – which moved into the nation-state and its empires..is dissolving.
ET:
Your last word “empires” and your claim that they are dissolving I have to disagree with. I recommend, if you get the chance, to read Imperial Grunts
http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Grunts-American-Military-Ground/dp/1400061326 .
It documents the revolution in US tactics to grow and expand what I would loosely describe as the American empire. (It is not anti-American in tone I assure you) Unlike empires before America’s there is no formal link of rule from the central country but rather a network of dependency and insurgency into the lesser countries that makes them ally with the US to the benefit of both sides.
right, gord tulk – that’s why I repeat that the old notion of ’empires’ is dissolving.
The new networked globe is, by definition, linked. Therefore, what is emerging is a network of dependency and co-dependency and co-relations ..all based around a common economic mode of capitalism, a common networked mode of informational connections, . As Castells says, it’s a movement from statism to integration in global economic and informational networks.
Manuel Castells; The Rise of the Network Society’.
The global network has to acknowledge differences in ecological nature – deserts, rainforests, plains, temperate climates, seasonal climates, different water supplies, etc, etc. The globe, as an economic and informational network, is not homogeneous, but diverse because of this, and because of history. And also, because of the natural, biological necessity, for the rise of diversity.
So, this networked globe won’t be a communist whole. It won’t be a UN of ‘cultural relativism’ which is akin to randomness and actually encourages wars. It will be instead, a flexible, readjusting complex system. There will be different ‘leader nodes’ (states/regions)..eg, the US..and China..and..
Yes the nation-state is dissolving.
And being replaced by rabid, irrational, blood-thirsty tribal nationalism.
But that is the way civilization has gone.
From nasty little individual tribes to tribes that co-operate to enhance their living standards.
And they grow until empires are formed, to stroke and satisfy big egos.
And then everybody becomes unhappy with being ruled from the centre and the rebellions start all over again.
Gee, I’m glad that I never threw my old PLO cap away.
Prairie Liberation Organization.
The only people responsible for the collapse of Yugoslavia are its former inhabitants.
Here’s an article (from yesterday’s National Post) from Christopher Hutchins. He agrees with JJM. The independence of Kosovo was inevitable.
(I find it very interesting that the US shot down a satellite last week, btw.)
I also agree with ET’s comments concerning Muslims.
Slovenia (Catholic), and democratic, is now economically successful and in the EU.
Croatia (mostly Catholic and Orthodox), and democratic, is a candidate either this year or next to join the EU.
Bosnia (almost even in Orthodox and Muslims but with a lot of Catholics), is democratic, and is reforming economically in order to join the EU.
Montenegro (the newest country in the world and mostly Muslim and Orthodox), is democratic, and wants to eventually join the EU.
Even Albania (mostly Muslim), is democratic, and a candidate to join the EU.
But Serbia (mostly Orthodox), supposed to be democratic, is still living in the past and they aren’t going anywhere soon – how sad.
One of the reasons that Bush chose Iraq to be a central battle ground for democracy in the ME was because of it’s relatively high literacy rate (about 80% of the population is educated to some degree). Tribalism is inversely proportional to literacy. Literacy and education invariably leads to the modernization of Muslim and democracy because people develop rational thought. Pakistan (and Afghanistan) have very low rates of literacy (about 40% and even lower for women) which means that it’s going to be a long haul in turning these places around.
So I don’t see the problems with Muslims in places like Kosovo or Albania (because it is not the same as the problem in the rest of Europe – the failure to integrate Muslims).
milosevic will be remembered as one who tried to stop the muslim hoard, not as the west tried to paint him. muslims in kosovo are killing christians and they are driving as many non muslims away as fast as they can. that is why the population is increasing.
Ah, Bosnia and Kosovo, where to start.
I’ll deal specifically with Kosovo and generally with that whole multicultural failure that was the FRY.
Of Croats, Serbs, Bosnian Muslims and Albanians I will only say this. Dealing with these people as a soldier “occupying” their land (and perhaps not with their consent) I found that the Serbs were the least duplicitous of the bunch. In that they would tell you to your face that they wanted to kill you. The rest would smile and nod and wait for an appropriate time to plunge the knife into the hilt.
This is not a condemnation of any of them, only a side note on Serbian bravado.
A lot of talk has been made about the Muslim nature of the Bosnian and Albanian populations but this is unfounded in my opinion. The Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo are not anywhere near the same animal as the middle eastern Muslim. During the Bosnian war the Mujahideen tried to instill radical Islam into the Bosnian forces. They were overwhelmingly told to f**k off.
Kosovo… A crap-storm waiting to happen. In 1999 the story in the world press was that there were mass exterminations of the Albanians within Kosovo and the Serbs were once again up to their ethnic cleansing fun and games. While there were some atrocities the number of those killed by Serb Death squads was somewhere around 2,600. The news of the day alluded to tens of thousands.
As far as genocides are concerned Kosovo was a whimper, not a shout. It is possible though that we (NATO) reacted in time, for once, to prevent the atrocity instead of after it. But hindsight is 20/20 and we will never know.
I’d like to know who the guy was that ran the PR for the campaign to get NATO into Kosovo, he would be able to sell ice to Eskimo’s.
It’s interesting to note that even the Albanians believed the 20,000+ number of murdered civilians.
If people think that the Serbs are going to let Kosovo go easily they need to take a look at popular Serbian myth/history. Just outside of Pristina is a place called Kosovo Pole where the Serbs fought and lost a battle against the Ottoman Empire. This is viewed as a defining moment in Serb history. The “Field of Crows” is as close as the Serbs come to sacred ground.
As I said when i left Bosnia in 1995 and Kosovo in 2000… these people are not anywhere near done killing each other yet.
In my opinion we should let this ethnic stupidity run its course, just as our various ethnic stupidities were allowed to in the old days.
Islam was brought to the Balkans by forced conversion and the sword. It did not grow there by the power of its ideas.
When Muslims reach a critical mass should we cut off some land for them and let them have an independent state?
An Islamic state in Europe does not seem like a smart idea – supporting their statehood will not make us less of an “infidel”?
If I was an Albanian Christian I would not want to live under sharia or creeping sharia.
“I also think that Islam can, as a social and political mode, modernize. And, as an ideological and religious mode, it can change.”
Unfortunately, ET, there is no precedent or historical evidence for your POV. Just the opposite is true. Ethnic cleansing is going on in Kosovo, with most of the Serbs pushed out, or killed, with Priests and Nuns specifically targeted and Christian property put to the torch.
This is typical wherever there’s a dominant Islamic presence. Whether that’s Pakistan, Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. The non-Muslim populations are rapidly diminishing in dominant Islamic lands. The same is happening in the west, ie. strict Islamic pockets, or ‘no go zones’ in Britain, France, Holland and even Dearborn Michigan.
Perhaps European Muslims are less fanatical than their Arab and south Asian brothers, however, the results are the same. Absolute intolerance of any other religion, non-Muslim religious symbols, buildings and non-Muslims in general.
Obviously, I am not an optimist when it comes to the Islamic ideology. There is little to be optimistic about. Even Turkey is reversing its secular Ataturk reforms – even if just symbolically. The once banned burka has now been approved to wear on campus and at state institutions.
Iran has just made death for apostacy the law of the land. Is that democratic progression?
ET, as much as you remain an optimist, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. And if that is so, its important, and yes, rational to realize and put forth options that deal with the reality.
Appeasement has never worked with Islam. Rather than showing tolerance and acceptance, to them it shows weakness and subjugation.
Once again, if you don’t understand the ideology, its history and what its adherents and leaders believe and say – your conclusions cannot be correct.
Well, as usual, irwin daisy, we’ll have to ‘agree to disagree’.
The fact that there is no ‘historical precedent’ for Islam to change ignores that there is a tremendous historical weight of evidence for TRIBALISM to change to a civic mode. And, since Islam is a social, economic and political TRIBAL system, then, there is massive evidence that it can move out of tribalism.
What is happening now, is the fierce fight against the dissipation of tribalism – a fight that went on in the West for over 400 years. Same thing; same change from a tribal to civic mode.
I don’t think it will take as long for the Islamic tribalism to dissipate, but, it is naive to think that a mode of organization that has existed for centuries, can be overturned in a few years. It’s already collapsing – which is why it is so militant. Give it a decade and you’ll see a tremendous change.
And I do understand the ideology, of both Islam and tribalism very well – and its history, and its operating processes. That’s also why I say that it cannot last; it’s unsuited to a modern industrial economy. It has to collapse.
By the way – you haven’t suggested what YOUR solutions would be?
My solutions are first, to enable and encourage modern economic connections and trade agreements – as is happening in the UAE (Dubai) which understands very well that it can’t remain tribal and must modernize. Second, to articulate that these trade connections include our expectation of due process and human rights in the workplace. Third, to enable and encourage electronic informational connections. And fourth, to dismantle multiculturalism in the West and insist on assimilation.
Yours?
ET,
Good point. Dubai, pictured on a paper hand bill with the points . .
[1] Prosperity
[2] Peaceful life
[3] Not run by Taliban or al-Qaeda
IEDs and bomb vests never lead to Dubai prosperity. = TG
Ok, ET.
The exposure and factual criticism of the Islamic ideology, so that not just those in the west will become knowledgeable, but Muslims will as well. This is especially important at the University level, which is being undermined in many cases by Saudi grants, and through the fiction and whitewashing of Edward Said, John Espisito, etc.
Laws inacted to repel and punish those acting on the most disgusting commands and incitements of the ideology, including shariah. This combined with reaffirmation and celebration of the superiority of our own culture and values – and the rejection of multiculturalism.
A moratorium on Muslim immigration and strict deportation of illegals and undesirables.
Monitoring and prosecuting Imams who preach hate. And closing down mosques where people come to listen to them.
To demand the Islamic world accept Universal Human Rights, not their own perverse, Islamic Human Rights, accepted at Cairo in ’91. Perhaps, as you suggest, this could be leveraged through trade.
To deal with the ideology in places of war and rebuilding, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, the same way the US eliminated Shintoiism in education, law and government after the fall of Japan.
Support for real reformers, such as Muslims against shariah, and their bid to edit out the vile verses in the Quran, as well as the rejection of the Hadith, Sira and the emmulation of Mohammad.
Exposure, prosecution and rejection of tax exempt status of Islamist organisations, such as CAIR, MAS, etc., who are purposefully undermining and subverting our laws and culture to their own collective end.
For the longer term – a concerted and immediate effort to find a viable alternative to oil.
Irwin daisy – your suggestions are primarily located in the WEST. They do nothing to deal with the root cause of Islamic fascism, which is tribalism
Certainly, in the West, the isolationist hotbed that is the result of multiculturalism must be removed. This can be achieved, as you suggest, by insisting on free speech, debate and critique of Islamism – in the West.
This can be achieved by rejecting Sharia Law – in the West.
This can be achieved by monitoring and prosecuting Imams preaching hate – according to Sections 318, 319 of the Canadian Criminal Code.
I disagree completely with your moratorium on Muslim immigration. Confining ‘them’ to their home countries while not addressing the tribal infrastructure in their home countries (and you don’t)..will only make those countries explosive centres. And, in this modern era, those explosions don’t remain confined to those areas.
I also disagree with your ‘deportation of undesirables’ since it is undefined and seems outside of due process. What is an ‘undesirable’?
I also think that your suggestion that the west should DEMAND that the Islamic world adopt universal human rights is an empty demand. How would you enforce it? It’s like the Islamic world DEMANDING that the west adopt Islam. As I’ve said, the only way to deal with this situation, is by opening up the deep infrastructure of tribalism..and that has to be by enabling economic interactions…which will, in themselves, operate within due process and values.
Certainly, support for ‘real reformers’ is vital.
But, your suggestions focus only on the West – important as this zone is, for it must reject multiculturalism and insist on assimilation.
But – to deal with the root cause, you have to disable tribalism in the ME and enable a civic economic and political mode to emerge.
ET,
Your suggestions will do nothing more than increase the security measures in the west, causing more tension and violence. Do you really want to put up with and pay for more security measures and hassles, based on one foreign religious group?
Currently, Islam is absolutely not compatible with the west.
Furthermore, your suggestions would aid Muslims in their ignorant reproduction jihad, in their stated and obvious attempt to breed out host cultures.
It’s best that Islamic countries take care of their own populations and harbour their own criminals. If that means that they have to limit births, like China, then so be it. If it means they have to modernize like India and China, then all the better. It is their problem. It is up to them.
I have stated real actions which would result in less fear and limit the ability of fanatics to strike in our country.
It may also result in more leverage in order to demand change in the ME.
As for the ‘undesireable,’ the Swiss have enacted a law whereby if a landed immigrant commits a crime, not only he, but his entire family are deported. Not a bad place to start. Afterall, immigration is a privilege, not a right, or entitlement.
The first order of government must be to enforce the rule of law and protect its own population.
Nope, sorry, I’m not buying the “Islamicization” line as it pertains to Bosniacs and Albanians.
These two groups are the most laid-back “Muslims” you could ever hope to meet. They are the least promising candidates for Islamist extremism.
The Albanians might make dandy criminals, warlords and thugs but they’re no Islamist threat.
“Currently, Islam is absolutely not compatible with the west.”
Posted by: irwin daisy
However, people are the same everywhere. Given enough material goods and modern conveniences, many Muslims will turn their backs on religion. Look what’s happened to the West since WW2. If your life on earth is better than you can imagine it being in heaven, why worry about God?
“The Albanians might make dandy criminals, warlords and thugs but they’re no Islamist threat.”
There are more Islamists on the streets of Birmingham and Toronto than in all of Kosovo.
Oh yeah, you guys have reached the pinnacle of expert opinion here. If you lack the very basic investigative journalism and critical thinking skills to understand evolution, or the debate centred on it, then I daresay you don’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of being trusted with any more complex perspectives.
The man is a bloody moron. Good company, people.
I’m speaking, of course, of Warren.