Today’s feature exerpt from the Richard Warman Chronicles.
Related: The noose tightens – “Out of 32 million people in Canada we know that 1 out of a possible 341 wrote that message.”
Today’s feature exerpt from the Richard Warman Chronicles.
Related: The noose tightens – “Out of 32 million people in Canada we know that 1 out of a possible 341 wrote that message.”
First they silenced the nut-jobs…
Zipster
I agree with what you are saying but would add that first they tried to silence (murder) Salman Rushtie. I remember Saturday Night Live type jokes such as fatwa-centric people dressed up in the garb of “the special religion” complaining bitterly that good authors were hard to find. The MSM, from a very safe distance, stood up for Rushtie. But because they do not feel safe to do so, the MSM shamefully continues to cower and will not stand up against the people who tried to have Salman Rushtie murdered for his opinions. So, the fatwa ultimately worked because most journalists chose safety over integrity.
If “journalists” do not posses bravery, integrity and an unflinching support of free speech they are paper boys and girls who deliver the news someone else gives them to deliver. Yes, they have high salaries and cushy expense accounts that they and their unions would fight tooth and nail to protect. But put themselves in harms way to protect free speech? Hardly. A few like Steyn and Levant have done so and good on them. I wish the rest would grow a pair or become bus drivers. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)
EyeswideShut….I sure wouldn’t want them driving my bus!!! Can you imagine just how badly the would screw up the route? Can’t believe the route numbers or timings now,could they? Those are hard facts,not fweewings. The MSM doesn’t believe in facts. Besides,aren’t all the bus lines owned by evil Jooossss? Heh
Oh. And does Warman have 314 people working for him,or does he just allow any Joe-blow onto his computer?
EWS, fair nuff but I don’t think there was ever a complaint about Salman Rushtie to “The Commisssion”…
Not that there couldn’t have been such charges, and, of course, the requisite kangaroo court to go with, and the finding of guilt and the order to make restitution…
Well maybe I am a nut, but I regard, the Warmans and Kinsellas as bigger threats to our nation than the odd racist crackpot. Those two idiots are legitimizing such loons, giving them free publicity they ordinarily wouldn’t get, and are spreading more hate around than the loons themselves ever could. How many of you are left with the multicultural warm and fuzzies at having militant moslem racists censor what we read?
Now would be an excellent time to buy a gun.
There may or may not have been complaints to the HRC about the distribution of Rusdie’s book in Canada. I suspect there was some complaining going on at some level. What is important is that after it became clear that some “special people” did not like anything published that could be construed as negative by or toward the “special religion” or the murderous things that were being done in name of the “special religion” the MSM fell all over themselves racing to see who could be the first to self-censor which is, of course, exactly what the “special religion” the HRC and pretty much all left wingers want.
If the media will not stand up for the rights of folks who most of us think are “out there” and if the media will not stand up against those who are clearly bent on stifling free speech, which is the crucial underpinning of a free press, what good are the media?
The thing that really irks me is that when the media self-censors they try to sell their sloth and cowardice as a noble and sensitive attributes. Is it possible that they are fooling people other than the Liberals and NDP?
Again, when Rex Murphy, Mark Steyn and Ezra Levant do buck the trend of media capitulation they should be commended.
Excellent post by Mark Steyn against the HRC and the CJC’s boy, Richard Warman.
As Ezra Levant posts today on his blog, apparently Warman and the CJC have filed yet again, another HRC. This time against someone’s White Supremacist website. As Ezra says, that’s enough to move his site from obscurity into publicity.
At the moment, we have a dreadful abuse of our constitutional rights to freedom of speech, by members affiliated with two religions. I’m not going to say abuse by two religious groups because neither the majority of Muslims nor Jews approve of these actions.
But, in the NAME of their religion, there are the two HRC complaints against Ezra Levant/Western Standard and Mark Steyn/Macleans. And in the NAME of their religion, there are the umpteen complaints by Richard Warman/the CJC.
The problem for the HRC, with regard to Ezra and Mark, is that they have agreed with ALL the complaints filed by Warman/CJC. So, can they reject the two complaints filed by individuals, in their name of the Muslim religion?
Or, will someone from higher up, Zeus preferably, fling a fire bolt and demolish entirely, the rottenness that is the HRC and the HRAct?
The analysis still doesnt get tight enough. It seems darn unlikely but a good lawyer can raise the doubt.
Rogers can tell you what billing address that IP was leased to. That resoilves it, you dont need to deal in probabilities. Supeona the records from rogers and you will get your answer once and for all.
If I were Warman I would do the same to exxonerate myself if I really hadnt done the posting. Why hasnt he?
Once again there is no need for speculation. The records exist to definitively resolve the issue. with a proper warrant rogers is happy to surrender the records, they do it all the time for all kinds of investigations.
and on it goes – now in SK as well
Google on Regina Leader Post/Mon/28th
Go to “more breaking news” and scroll down to: Regina man charged with promoting hatred gets on line response.
Upcoming court appearance for blogger – Feb 25th in Regina. Apparently recently convicted in Sask HRC and now (afer a $4000 fine) it goes to criminal trial.
Interesting how many of the same names seem to keep recurring – like Farber, CJC, Stormfront, etc.
The MSM is gradually being forced into bringing the HRC story(s) forward as the likes of Rex Murphy are starting to weigh in and as the upcoming “dates with destiny” on a number of fronts will soon be front and center.
Considering what Warman allegedly wrote is considered hate mongering, why aren’t the police investigating the post? I’m sure with their vast resources they could stop the speculation regarding wheather Warman posted that post. I would expect the police to prosecute him to the full extent of the law if it were his IP address. Being a spy in a forum isn’t a valid reason to post hate messages.
Why are the police not investigating Mr. Warman, as another stated if he were innocent he had his day in court all the HRC and Mr. Warman had to do was allow a Representive of Rodgers to testify and there would be no doubt. HRC failure to allow the testimony and instead concede defeat is all the evidence I need to be convinced there is something horribly wrong with the incestious, possibly illegal, relationship between Mr. Warman and some HRC employees. At the very least a police investigation is warrented, his words were hateful but were they hate speech? I’d also like the police to investigage employees of the HRC to see if there it/was cohesion between Mr. Warman and “SOME” employees for monatary gain? Because I believe if these questions remain unanswered it is a diservice to Taxpayers who’s funds are being squandered to financially benifit ONE MAN.
Stephen,
Initially the Anne Cools post was part of the CHRC complaint against Lemire because Warman said specifically that ALL of the posts on the Freedomsite forum were included in the complaint.
When he found out that Lemire’s lawyer had the Cools post and that they were going to try to prove he made it, he not only moved to quash the Roger’s subpoena, but he also narrowed down the posts that were to be included in the investigation and he excluded the Cools post (which was clearly hate speech). He then argued that the Cools post could not be discussed in the hearing because it was not part of the complaint.
This is not what one would expect an innocent man to do in this situation.
It is my understanding that Lemire’s lawyer did eventually win the fight to subpoena Rogers, but their log files for that time were no longer in existence.
Problem is as a defence I dont know if you can get a warrant to get rogers to release the records. That would mean going to a court. I dont know what the interaction is here between courts and HRC’s….
Any lawyers out there that can describe the circumstances under which a court would provide the appropriate order for rogers to release the information of which billing address that that IP was leased to on that date?
I dont know if even a complaint loged through the HRC would be enough to get the court to do this. Warman was compalining about the site because of comments he had posted through an HRC vehicle. The HRC has the power to punish but I dont think it has the power to compel third parties to supply evidence. Nice loophole.
Once again perhaps a lawyer in the midst can cover this off better.
But I will repeat, the answer to this question lay in getting the data from Rogers, the ISP provider. That resolves which billing address it belonged to. Then you are left with the issue of Warman explaining how someone else used his computer….
If nobody, Warman or the accused parties, wants to get that info then this debate is kind of empty….
does he just allow any Joe-blow onto his computer?
Posted by: Justthinkin at January 28, 2008 12:43 PM
–Careful, Justthinkin. Warman’s a member of EGALE, so we gotta be real careful about the use of the word “blow”…
Some folks are actually that paranoically hypersensitive…
Here’s a what if scenario. Would it be possible for some member of the public to complain to the police that the post referencing Cool promotes hate and therefore charges should be laid against Freedominion.com. The police would then be obliged to investigate and I assume part of that investigation would be to trace the ip address of the poster which should lead directly to warman. (I refuse to capitalize the scums name). Of course it should follow that after the investigation Freedominion.com would be exonerated of any wrongdoing. There’s always more than one way to skin a cat or scumbag.
“… log files were no longer in existence”
Hmm… that’s very interesting. Being involved in the area of electronic records management, I know a lot of ISPs now hold on to their log files as legal records with set archival and disposition schedules. I am quite surprised Rogers has an expunge in the limited time frame discussed here. I’m not saying it isn’t true; I’m just surprised by it.
Sorry, forgot to close the bold tag there, Kate.
*
“Connie Fournier says… their log files for that time were no longer in existence.”
sounds a little suspect to me. i worked mainframe ops for big canadian
companies… including a major bank… you have to keep computer
backup tapes for seven years for audit purposes.
you’re saying rogers didn’t?
and while it would have been easy for someone to truthfully say
the log files aren’t on the box any longer… there
are always tapes.
please don’t tell me they just took somebody’s word for this.
*
Agree with neo on the standard seven years for audit. But many firms are holding onto their records for 10-12 years, even indefinitely, for legal tracking purposes now.
Again, very surprised that Rogers doesn’t have the log file information in question in its possession.
Seems odd to me. Easy enough to confirm, write an email to rogers and ask them how long they keep their ISP records currently and if they have changed their policy in the last 5 years?
It may very well be the case, but I would nail it down first because if I were Warman’s lawyer this is one of the first questions I would ask. A simple and easy thing to confirm.
And if this record isnt available even though it should be it becomes stranger still. It would mean the only record you have is the record from the website. Not sure I would want to rely on that only, once again too easy for a decent lawyer to raise way too much doubt over the issue.
I thought it was strange, too.
Lemire’s lawyer had to fight hard to get that subpoena, and then they came up with nothing.
If they had that information I have a hard time believing that Rogers would ignore a subpoena to produce it, but it does seem weird that they were gone.
Someone said there was a new privacy law that prevents them from keeping the log files as long as they used to?
How much you want to bet that if the police were looking for a pedophile Rogers would get the info?
Of course, that would be far more important but still…
Rogers wouldnt ignore a subpoena. If they had the records they would supply them if asked.
I would send an email to rogers corporate office and ask them for their policy and how long they keep the records, who they can release them to and under what circumstances and if there has been a change in that policy in the last few years.
A subpoena comes from a court. They had a subpoena from a court, or jsut a lawyers request?
And are there different types, ie one the police would obtain versus one that a citizen might?
Once again these loose ends are easy enough to tie up with some emails and phone calls. As I said none of this invalidates anything it is just that the evidence as it stands doesnt prove anything.
Maybe this has been addressed before but how do you know the logs form the website are accurate, have they come from a third party who is solid?
Once again, if there was a police investigation into kiddie porn I would have thought Rogers would have had that info. I pick that example because it would have been a criminal investigation by police and therefore the subpoena/warrant would have had maximum power, second only to a terrorism investigation maybe.
Once again, to solidify the case I would go check all of these soft spots. Just my 2 cents.
Nobody has disputed the validity of the server logs. They came directly off the server, they were accepted into evidence at the tribunal, and the last alter date was from before ‘lucy’ registered, so nobody even knew Warman’s IP address at that time.
The request to Rogers was in the form of a subpoena. There was quite a battle in the tribunal as Warman tried to quash the request for a subpoena, and Lemire’s lawyer eventually won.
F*** the logs. I don’t give a rat’s ass who wrote what. Outside of a very limited group of restrictions (death threats, libel) people should be able to write whatever the hell they want to write, and the government shouldn’t have a damn thing to say about it. Don’t play the HRC’s game, even to use it against them! Treat these… people… with all the contempt they deserve.
Anyone backing the Liberals after what they’ve done, what they’ve allowed to go down over the past decade, is definitely a danger to this country. Kinsella and his ilk, continuing to support and act as cheer leaders and apologists, even with the mess the Liberals have become are right up there with revolutionaries in tin pot regimes. It’s all about hunger for power and retaining it, tin pot dictators would be proud when they see the Media acting as fifth column in the attempt to overthrow the government.
If ever there was a time to put a party, the Liberals, down for the long term it’s now. They neither deserve or are fit to govern, their so called leader and their recent history is evidence enough.
It makes a huge difference if Warman is the one who wrote that. It means that a comment that he wrote was part of the complaint that was later lodged against Marc Lemire. It is no different than a police officer planting pot on someone and then arresting them for possession.
Interesting that Warman hasn’t been found to have gone after Islamofascist hate sites which spew hatred and contempt about pretty much anyone who isn’t purely Islamic. What, is he protecting Islamofascists?
Then again, it’s too much to expect a member of EGALE to go after Islamofascists who openly make hateful statements about homosexuals. The “gays” never try to do anything about homophobic hate coming from Islamists.
You can’t help but notice how silent the left has been on this issue. The only thing that got them excited was the whole kinsella red-herring libel threat. Since then they have had very little to say. Silence speaks volumes.
The more we look at Warman, the less we’re inclined to see him as an innocent man and “human rights” champion.
His actions and utterances make it impossible to think much positive stuff about him.
If I were him, I’d cease and desist with all Liberal Fascist aggression immediately and permanently. Continuing with his zealous jihad against free speech and against people he hates will only prove to be his undoing, and help hasten the undoing of the so-called “Human Rights” Commission.
I say let him continue his zealous jihad. He’s his own, and Liberal Fascism’s, worst enemy.
Canadian Sentinel, you have a good point. I wonder why the gays haven’t demanded having a marriage ceremony held in a mosque. I know there are no gay muslims, but I am surprised a few haven’t converted, just to prove a point.
Let Warman lie… err speak, um I meant explain himself.
Steyn said:
Look, if David Icke was a racist, he wouldn’t find it prudent to give seven-hour speeches in Brixton. Icke isn’t a racist, he’s a kook who believes the world is run by shape-shifting space lizards.
Here we can see that even the great Steyn can get it a bit wrong. He’s kinda intimating here that if Icke were a racist his argument might be different.
But truly, he should be allowed to be a racist, even publicly state that he hates people of a given race — even take out a billboard to make his statement. He should not, of course, be permitted to directly incite violent behaviour. There’s the distinction!
Hatred is awful and ugly and perhaps even more corrosive for the hater than the hatee. But so what? It’s a human emotion which a free person should be able to express without state interference.
And the public, including friends, family, neighbours,and associates are equally free to shun the hater. There’s the real regulation in a free society.
“reptilian humanoids descended from the blood-drinking space lizards of the star system Alpha Draconis”
Didn’t they build their base in the Ottawa-Montreal corridor?
Me No Dhimmi said: “Steyn said:
Look, if David Icke was a racist, he wouldn’t find it prudent to give seven-hour speeches in Brixton. Icke isn’t a racist, he’s a kook who believes the world is run by shape-shifting space lizards.
Here we can see that even the great Steyn can get it a bit wrong. He’s kinda intimating here that if Icke were a racist his argument might be different.”
Sorry, I don’t take it that way. I see the Brixton remark as Steyn’s clever way of supporting the thesis that Icke is not a racist. The unspoken assumption being that if a REAL racist were to attempt to make a 7-hour speech in Brixton, he’d have an ass-whupping hung on him by a coalition of the diversely-complected.
Steyn is quite clear on the fact that he understands freedom of speech to include the freedom to say stupid or hateful things.
Well, if the racist were a Jew hater, he might have an audience in Brixton.
I wanted to get back to the ip addresses.you have mentioned subpoena.
By my reading of subpeona it is a compulsion to produce evidence….BUT a warrant is “Most often, the term warrant refers to a specific type of authorization; a writ issued by a competent officer, usually a judge or magistrate, which commands an otherwise illegal act that would violate individual rights and affords the person executing the writ protection from damages if the act is performed.”
The key here being the illegal act or violation of privacy. The request to say which ip address was leased to which Billing address would seem to be a violation of a privacy right and therefore in need of a warrant.
\subpoenas get issued ahead of time and can be quashed but a search warrant is immeadiate and has no challenge ahead of time. Both need to be issued by an authority but it looks like subpoenas can be signed by law enforcement or by a lawyer. what is interesting is the follwoing froma library FAQ on subpoenas vs warrants
“C. What is the difference a between a subpoena and a search warrant?
A search warrant is an order issued by a judge, authorizing a law enforcement officer to search for and seize any property that constitutes evidence of the commission of a crime, property used as the means of committing a crime, contraband, etc. Law enforcement officers cannot obtain search warrants unless they convince a judge that there is probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed. Search warrants are virtually always granted, so it is not particularly difficult for law enforcement offers to get them. Criminals can escape conviction if evidence is seized without a warrant.
Both a subpoena and a search warrant must be signed by a judge before a library can disclose information about patrons. The same is true for a “court order.” The point is that libraries cannot disclose information about their patrons, even to law enforcement personnel, without an order of some kind, signed by a judge. If a subpoena is signed only by a lawyer or by a law enforcement officer, it is *not* adequate.
One difference between a search warrant and a subpoena is that a subpoena is issued ahead of time, whereas a search warrant permits the police to conduct a search on the spot. A library can move to “quash” a subpoena to protect the confidentiality of innocent patrons.”
Must be signed by a judge…..maybe this is a red herring but is the tribunal a court? Was it a judge, and do they have the right to issue warrants, which cannot be challenged.
Sounds like the defendents got a subpeona agreed to, who signed it? lawyer or judge? and if it was signed by the head of the tribunal is that the equialent of “real court” judge. A company like Rogers would stick to the letter of the law, so if that means only a judge signed order then thats what they would do.
Ultimately my point is, was the right instrument used to get the data.
Countering this. There is no requirement for ISP’s to hold data, and in fact there are many movements against them retaining data. There are some very active and infomative blogs on this topic.
so where does that leave us. Not any further ahead, the info may or may not exist. The right instrument may or may not have been used to obtain that information.
Meaning, at this stage there is no way of knowing defitively if the Lucy post was from the same billing address as 90’s are over. It may be likely that it was….but at this stage it looks like it is not something you could prove in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt. You might be able to prove it in an HRC tribunal if you were complaining about the right ting though 🙂
The court of public opinion is another matter.
But I would check again if definitively rogers said they dont have the info…they are under no obligation to keep it and may purge it regularly for the very reason that it is a pain in the ass and a potential liability. The may also only release it if there was a judge signed warrant or subpoena so they dont have to worry about any potnetial liability issues that may come with a lawyer signed subpoena.
Lots of heat not a lot of light, sorry I wish i found soemthing more definitive in the research. BTW I am not a lawyer and I am sure a lawyer could have laid out these issues faster and better. If there is a lawyer out there reading this with some expertise in privacy issues I think all on this board would appreciate some insight as to what is possible and likely in this kind of situation….trying to track down someone based on obtaining the billing address that the ISP leased the IP to.
Once again, lots of heat not a lot of light at this stage.
I apologize for my coarse language earlier, Kate.
When I was on jury duty in an assault case, the judge talked to us before we went to deliberate on the case and he told us to keep in mind that “beyond a reasonable doubt” does not mean “no doubt”.
When you look at the evidence, the IP address and system information alone, according to catprint, shows that only 341 people in the world could have made that post.
When you combine that with the fact that Richard Warman has admitted to making racist comments on other sites, and he has admitted to registering at that obscure little site. THEN you take into account the fact that he withdrew that horribly racist post from his tribunal complaint and he tried to block the Rogers subpoena, there is only one logical conclusion.
If the courts demanded that there be no doubt before a person could be convicted, nobody would ever be convicted. Even in the most cut and dried cases, there will always be straws the accused can grasp to ‘prove’ their innocence. That is why the criminal courts us ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ as their yardstick. Also, keep in mind that the burden of proof is even less strict in civil court and at the tribunals.
Below is a link to a copy of the affidavit from Rogers that was submitted into evidence and they clearly say that they no longer have the logs. This is the unsigned copy. The signed copy was the same.
http://www.freedominion.ca/images/rogers.pdf
Key line in there….unless they changed their network card the chance of getting the same IP address is good.
I agree with you that it sure appears likely. I am just saying that there were vulnerabilities that a good lawyer could raise reasonable doubt with.
Better to have third party or corroberating evidence from a disinterested third party. Short of video you will never remove all doubt but identifying the address would have boxed it in considerably.
So now we all know that if you are going to pursue someone then it should be within 3 years to get the IP address to match the Billing address.
I believe the requirement for retaining records has to do with accounting, primarily for taxation reasons (not just the company’s taxes but employees records, suppliers, GST, etc …).
As noted above, there are very good reasons against retaining all records indefinately. If you don’t believe privacy should be a concern, you should try working where I do. Big Brother is alive and kicking.
Out of interest I googled Richard Warman, oh my gosh not one nice word to found about our hero Mr. Whossyman.
Link: If allowed: http://www.google.com/search?q=Richard+Warman+Human+Rights+Commission.&hl=en&start=0&sa=N
I can’t believe the goberment is ignoring this scandle, check out page two during one of his MANY hearings. He’s asked if he still works for the HRC (2006) but he refused to answer nor will the HRC.