85 Replies to “Let’s Do It For Tommy!”

  1. One can only imagine what the outcry from the left would be if a conservative had been voted The Greatest Canadian and then this came out?
    Although, I’ve never personally seen a coniption fit, I think I would see one then…

  3. I never thought I’d stick up for a communist but I think criticism on this point is ill-founded. As I understand it, homosexuality was defined by psychiatrists and psychologists as a mental illness (into the 1980s) on the grounds that it was self-destructive behaviour. The psychiatrist who spearheaded the change later died of AIDS, but perhaps that is neither here nor there.
    Can any psychiatrists or psychologists out there confirm this?

  6. “I never thought I’d stick up for a communist …”
    This is a province in which for every provincial election cycle, the Regina Leader Post dusts off 80 year old allegations that the Conservatives were tied to the Ku Klux Klan.
    Yet, for all the fawning that Douglas receives in the NDP and national media, his full history is carefully redacted. Consider this a “freedom of information” post.

  7. criticism on this point is ill-founded.

    I agree, and come to think of it, we have been really harsh lately on Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Guevarra. Mass murderers are people too. They just probably needed a little more love. It’s merely a cry for help you know.

  8. Read the comment, Doug. If you’re going to level criticism against Tommy Douglas for considering homosexuality a mental illness, include the entire psychiatric and psychological professions and, frankly, most laypeople at the time as well. It’s the same as dredging up an old Strom Thurmond clip, condemning him as a bigot and not mentioning that he had plenty of company.

  9. Perhaps Tommy would have called it a genetic flaw if he were around today. We know more about genetics and DNA than we did back then.
    However, I do think that many homos are mentally ill if you see how they behave in San Francisco most of the time and during gay pride day in Toronto and elsewhere.
    Plus, I have had colonoscopy and prostate exams in the past and there is absolutely nothing pleasurable about having anything up one’s rectum. Quite the opposite.
    Plus, plus, what other group anywhere is defined by what they do sexually rather than who they are and what other things they may do in their life?
    It does seem a bit psychotic to me, but then what do I know?

  10. Hey, where’s our anonymous “straw man” I’m sure He’s got tons of evidence on GWB’s ties to white supremacism, the International Banking Conspiracy (i.e. the Jooooooos) The House of Saud (see, he loves the Jooooos and terrorists at the same time, that diabolical, clever, dumb chimp) killing off homosexuals in Africa by the deliberate spreading of AIDS (it’s all about the oil, you know) jeez, we’re not sure what we will rant about once Hitlery is (s)elected POTUS. But until then….

  11. include the entire psychiatric and psychological professions and, frankly, most laypeople at the time as well.

    Now I know that some people call Saskatchewan a communist state, but since when did all those people hold the elected office of Premiere of the province?

  12. Let’s clarify, Doug. It’s fine for mental health professionals of the day to define homosexuality as a mental illness, but if the head of a provincial government agrees it’s an outrage? Spare me.

  13. Charles,
    The left always tries to defend Tommy’s thesis on eugenics, his undeniable Ku Klux Klan associates,(Daniel C. Grant was a well known grand wizard when he was also Tommy’s campaign manager) and his gay bashing by saying “you have to put it in the context of the time, he was very progressive”. or some garbage like that. Yet no one ever points out the terrible economic times in the 1980’s when Devine ran a deficit, or the fact that the NDP put both Ontario and British Columbia into such horrible financial condition they almost broke those provinces when the rest of the country was doing very well.

  14. Kate wrote- “Yet, for all the fawning that Douglas receives in the NDP and national media, his full history is carefully redacted. Consider this a ‘freedom of information’ post.”
    Amen to that, Kate!!
    Cast your thoughts to the notion that Stockwell Day or Stephen Harper had ever uttered Tommy Douglas’s ideas of homosexuality or his views on sterilization of low IQ individuals, and how Canadian media would react.
    Tommy Douglas fawning leftist Canadian MSM outed for redacting Tommy the commies mindset by SDA on AL Gore’s invention – the internet.
    WOW!!

  15. So Tommy Douglas’s thinking on the subject 30 years ago is light years ahead of your typical right-wing conservative today. That’s hardly earth-shattering.

  16. If you’re not a socialist when you’re 20, you don’t have a heart.
    If you’re still a socialist when you’re 30, you don’t have a brain.
    – Winston Churchill, freedom fighter against National Socialism.

  17. Radical socialism and Fascism have 2 things in common:
    1) They are both systems to CONTROL the population into some form of utopian uniformity.
    2) One of the controls embraced is eugenics and selective reproductive policies.
    Tommy,like Hitler and Castro and Stalin and Mao, believed that deviancy in anything from political ethos to social more’s to physical and sexual deviation could be dealt with by the Aldous Huxley method of social/human engineering. (genetic selection and social Darwinism)
    Deviants will be culled, taken away from the gene pool so utopian uniformity of thought, purpose and service to the state can be achieved.
    Tommy was very advanced in his thinking…he was on the cutting edge of early 20th century social control doctrines….IF you consider politically motivated social engineering eugenics to be “progressive”….Tommy, essentially, thought Homos could be irradicated by keeping them from reproducing….many 30s eugenicists ( most of them funded and tenured by Fascist regimes)believed Homosexuality was an hereditary genetic anomaly that could be eradicated within a generation by mass sterilization of existing homosexuals….obviously Tommy’s clerical answer was to have homos committed as insane then sterilized while wards of the state.
    From a moder democratic humanitarian perspective this 1930s socialist/fascist population control-uniformity agenda was pretty degenerate.

  18. Tommy Douglas falls into the same catagory as any other political Icon. He’s like the $3.00 “glow in the dark” plastic statue of the Virgin Mary that my grandma kept beside her bed and prayed to when there was thunder and lightning over her shack on the flat prairie.
    If you beleive that the Virgin Mary protects you from lightning, then I suppose there’s comfort in faith. If you believe that Tommy Douglas was “the father of medicare,” then may you find solace in your false belief. As for his being the number one Canadian, I’d hate to see what an unpopular Canuck looks like!!!

  19. Hey set you free, a little info about the Churchill quote:
    According to research by Mark T. Shirey, citing Nice Guys Finish Seventh: False Phrases, Spurious Sayings, and Familiar Misquotations by Ralph Keyes, 1992, this quote was first uttered by mid-nineteenth century historian and statesman François Guizot when he observed, Not to be a republican at 20 is proof of want of heart; to be one at 30 is proof of want of head. This quote has been attributed variously to George Bernard Shaw, Benjamin Disraeli, Otto von Bismarck, and others.
    Furthermore, the Churchill Centre, on its Falsely Attributed Quotations page, states “there is no record of anyone hearing Churchill say this.” Paul Addison of Edinburgh University is quoted as stating: “Surely Churchill can’t have used the words attributed to him. He’d been a Conservative at 15 and a Liberal at 35! And would he have talked so disrespectfully of Clemmie, who is generally thought to have been a lifelong Liberal?
    From wikiquote, but verifiable in many other realms. In essence, not only did Churchill not use the word socialist, he didn’t say this at all.

  20. Thank you, Trent, I know that. If Aberhart and Manning had been communists, the media would treat them the same way regarding the same issues. I am simply saying that, as political munitions go, this is something of a damp squib.
    Assertion: “TD thought fruits were nuts!”
    Responses: “You mean they ain’t?”; “Is this the exception that proves the rule that TD is always wrong?”; or the societal context argument.
    Only the most hardcore NDPbots are likely to care and, at most, they’ll relegate it to a footnote to the official hagiography.

  21. WLM:
    Since homosexuals, by definition, cannot reproduce … what was the point of sterlizing them? To diminish sex drive, I’d guess.
    You do correctly point out that the zenith of this movement was in the early 20th century, which in retrospect turned out to be the bloodiest in history.
    Fabian socialist apologists will tell you that Stalin did it all wrong, but then offer no explanation for the aforementioned Hitler, Castro and Mao.
    Churchill framed it quite clearly.
    What today’s naive idealists cannot square is that WWII was fought for more individual freedom, not so we could have an even-more intrusive marxist state.
    With inherent free choice, it’s inevitable some human beings will make choices which would leave to negative outcomes.
    So, when National Socialism (social control) and its armies were defeated, that did not mean it was a victory for even more state control (marxist and state enterprise).
    The genesis of all these poisonous ideas toward the imprisonment of humanity is easily traceable back four decades before the start of the 20th century, when the notion that human nature could be ‘evolved’ took root.
    Life is not fair and it can never be made fair through coerisive legislation and executions, as socialists of all stripes still cannot admit.

  22. If he said it today in 2007 – yes people would be outraged. If he said it before 1969 (and this video is obviously pre-1969) then he is repeating what almost every doctor and every psychiatrist said in Canada before the 1970’s.
    This is totally lame – all it shows is what a mean spirited little right winger you are! You should have stuck around for high school. You would have loved it! It is truly unfortunate that your adolescent, Grade 8 mentality did not have a chance to bloom and develop!

  23. Redux, how do you account for the fact that it was conservative Alberta which legislated and practiced eugenics, not Sask???

  24. Manny,
    It was less objectionable to do so what other species do naturally … let the defective and hopelessly ill simply die and even help them on their way.
    This is something the Left is in support of nowadays and they call it euthanasia. The left even goes further they support killing fully formed babies right up to the point at which they are about to pop into the world and smile at mommy.
    Don’t you dare give me that horse she about the Right wing being evil. There has never been bigger evil visited on this planet than that which has come from the Left.

  25. Redux:
    Are you surprised at the name-calling and anger lefdog brings to the debate?
    manny:
    Just google Nelly McClung and Alberta’s famous five, who successfully agitated for the Darwinian practise of giving natural selection a helping hand.
    If they were wrong about eugenics (which they were), is it possible they were wrong when they fought to give women the right to vote? They are celebrated by feminists for the latter accomplishment, while their support for the abhorrent practise of eugenics is swept under the table.
    Wanna get into abortion, which is another practise disrespectful of the sanctity of human life?

  27. WL:
    Do you have the same thoughts about Bible Bill Aberhart, Ernest Manning, Harry Strom and the rest of the Social Credit Party? As a kid, Tommy Douglas wrote a paper about eugenics, which he categorically and publicly rejected as an adult. Unlike Douglas, the bible-thumping Socreds were not only believers in eugenics but actually enacted eugenics legislation that survived into the 1970s. Which is the greater evil or outrage? Someone who wrote a paper about eugenics as a kid and then grew up and rejected it, or someone who passionately believed in it as an adult and made sure it was the law of the land? Who is more like Hitler in that scenario?
    Which is not meant as any attack on religion but highlighting a way too obvious “when in a glass houses” moment. And that is part of Kate’s point I suppose, with resect to the Regina Leader Post, so don’t repeat their error.
    Of course, the difference between “conservatives” aligning with the KKK way in the past and “progressives” and “conservatives” saying homosexuality is a mental disease, is that in their own time, the beliefs and actions of the KKK were rejected as repugnant by large swaths of people while society at Tommy Douglas’s time was debating whether homosexuality should result in jail time or being committed to a mental institution.

  30. Set you free: Yes.
    Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, in fact, Canadian that I am.
    How is that relevant to the topic at hand?

  31. Ted:
    Peace, Order and Good Government is the Canadian motto.
    You have just articulated the US motto.
    Topical relevance? I dunno. How is the invocation of KKK relevant to the topic? Other than it was primarily an abhorrent American movement?
    By your answer, I’ll mark you down as against abortion, which in another travesty against the sanctity of human life.

  32. KKK is relevant because our host, Kate, mentions it in her comment, set you free. She didn’t mention abortion though and so you’ll pardon me if I ignore your off-topic baiting.
    “Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness” was Jefferson’s attempt at articulating fundamental principles of humanity and civilization. “Peace, Order and Good Government” was the British government’s attempt at articulating the fundamental principles of government in some of its colonies. I happen to believe in both and don’t see a necessary contradiction.
    While I don’t hero worship anyone, Jefferson is up there in my respect and admiration. And, apropos of the original topic here, that Jefferson was an imperfect man, had slaves, had children by at least one of those slaves, does not diminish his contribution to modern western liberal democracy, and no amount of contemporary political correctness will change my view in that regard.

  33. Don’t forget, ok4ua says:
    “Anyone who hates Tommy Douglas hates puppies and people. You probably had a deprived childhood and would abuse your spouces.”
    Comedy gold.

  34. Ted:
    KKK is mentioned by Kate to cite an example of how the NDP apologists marginalize the Saskatchewan populace through media outlets.
    I grew up in Alberta, but my wife is among the millions of people who emigrated here from Saskatchewan due to lack of economic opportunity.
    Fact: Saskatchewan’s population was higher than Alberta’s in the 1930’s. Alberta’s population has grown to 3.5 million, Saskatchewan’s remained stagnant.
    Fact: With the lack of opportunity based on celebrating the nobility of being poor, Saskatchewan sold its potential down the road of utopian idealism.
    Just curious: It always seemed weird to me that Douglas, purportedly a religious man, would embrace a philosophy which actively diminished religion as an opiate of the masses and offered a politicalization of Darwinian theory, a type of science fiction equalled only by Al Gore today.
    So, was Douglas really a man of the cloth or merely a wolf in sheep’s clothing who instilled Fabian socialism on a poorly-educated populace?
    And, Ted: I though socialists were supposed to hate America, primarily because it recognizes the inherent free will of individuals and the responsibility not to abuse the gift of free will.
    Can you help me sort out these apparent contradictions, since I’m just an ignorant Albertan for a province that will never, ever stoop so low as to be tricked into voting for an NDP government?

  35. Tommy’s full history carefully REDACTED by the fawning leftist MSM and ND’s.
    And the sun rises from the east!

  36. By the way,the NDP store has some cool stuff,especially the Tommy Douglas portrait laser-etched into high quality lead crystal, with light in solid oak base.
    Click to enlarge. I almost fell off my chair.

  37. Well given the time in which these comments were made, Douglas’ approach was much more enlightened than many. As he says, during his time, homosexuality was seen as criminal behaviour with individuals going to jail for engaging in consenual sexual acts. Better they be treated as sick then as criminals. Was he right? No, but he was at least not wanting to criminalize people.

  38. I agree with Ted. (why do I feel dirty?) Taking what someone says about science (hard or soft) from the past and comparing it what we know now, to discredit the person isn’t fair.
    Everything science is theoretically based, at the time (and sometimes now on this blog) the prevailing theories were that homosexuality was caused by trauma, sickness, lack of father, or poor breeding. The prevailing theory at one point was that the world was flat. Using Ptolemy’s geocentric flat earth universe to discredit his other works is poor form and it doesn’t really prove much… other than a lack of context in your criticisms.
    If we’re going to make fun of the dippers we should do it by making fun of current failures in the NDP. Come on now, Calvert is an easy target and so is Taliban Jack, let’s make them seem stupid rather than bring up the ghosts of the past.

  39. Jon:
    That should be the ONGOING failures of the NDP.
    They are successful in creating ‘fairness’ in Saskatchewan … everybody is now equally miserable.

  40. I would agree with Charles and Ted on this issue. On the topic of homosexuality, TD believed (generally) what the vast majority of the population believed at the time. Up until last year, as an example, I believed Pluto was a planet and up to 5 years ago or so I believed it was the furthest planet from the sun…believing either of those things now makes you unenlightened today.
    Much ado about nothing.

  41. Seems to me everyone’s missing the point of this post. No question TD doesn’t have to be held up to the standards of thinking on the issue in 2007. The real point is this: why has his thinking on homosexuals been swept under the carpet for all these decades? If it’s so easily explained as reflecting the times — and I can buy that — what does the left have to worry about in making full disclosure? I’ll bet that 98% of the Cdn population doesn’t know he held these views (and some others, too, that the majority at the time held as well); and that 100% of the 2-3% of the Cdn population who voted on CBC’s “Greatest Canadian” don’t know anything about this. If his views are so innocuous, then let’s not be afraid of getting them out there.
    To think that we scoff at the Americans for whitewashing their heroes!

  42. Don’t forget, ok4ua says:
    “Anyone who hates Tommy Douglas hates puppies and people. You probably had a deprived childhood and would abuse your spouces.”
    Tommy was known for being very mean and cruel to his wife, Irma. There are even anecdotal reports of him slapping her at a NDP convention in the 1970’s. This would be hard to proof, seeing as almost everyone there was a Tommy worshipper, but I was part of the team who got Tommy’s thesis on the internet, so just give me time.
    An interesting book to read on Tommy is “The Life and Political Times of Tommy Douglas” by Walter Stewart. Stewart, a long time left wing propagandist, does his best to explain Tommy’s many short comings, including why nobody that really knew him, liked him. Stewart even touches on Tommy’s abusive treatment of Irma and his well known history of womanizing. Fascinating read. Stewart works so hard to try and paint Tommy as a hero, but there just isn’t enough paint to cover all of the blemishes.

  43. homosexuality IS disordered .
    However , I don’t have much faith in the field of psychiatry.
    And I doubt that Tommy would want to be lumped in a group with me.

  44. Actually, any book on Tommy written by a left-winger is just one long diatribe of excuses for that mean spirited little man So pick up anyone of the half dozen or so books written and give it a read; you will be enlightened.

  45. Umm, TD is dead, along with that idea. Kinda silly to hold him to 2007 standard. IMO Douglas, while wolf in sheep’s clothing, was still religious man, I understand maybe that’s why he didn’t go around murdering people, like Hitler and Stalin for instance.
    OK to put context of past failings of socialism, though best to view through contemporary lense with, as pointed out, so many current subjects available, seeing its inherent miscalculations of human nature.

  48. Shamrock,
    Jimmy Gardiner was a religious man as well, but it didn’t stop the progressive re-creationists from portraying him as a whiskey swilling drunk in order to amplify the the sainthood of Tommy.
    I don’t think this clip would have been an issue at all if there wasn’t such a movement on the left to idolize Tommy at the expense of all others.
    In the provincial election in SK, his daughter, the brain-dead Shirley Douglas in a blatantly political move during an election, opened Tommy Douglas Collegiate and then proceeded to give her opinion on the proposed NDP drug plan.
    BTW, has anyone asked that twit that if daddy made life so much better here, why does she not live in SK?
    As I said in my first post, what would the outcry of the left have been had it been a business lobby that voted a conservative as The Greatest Canadian and a video like this would have appeared?
    Would they take the video in the context of another decade or in the context of 2007?
    We all the know the answer to that…

  49. “WLM:
    Since homosexuals, by definition, cannot reproduce … what was the point of sterlizing them? To diminish sex drive, I’d guess.”
    In Tommy’s day most weren’t out6ted except the Bohenian types in European art centers…most were in a hetero relationship with children.
    Then the practice of Lesbians getting pregnant by a male donor so they could raise the child is an old notion from the 20s.
    At any rate, these old “progessivist” eugenicists believed if you were a deviant with working apparatus you were capable of passing on the “bad seed”.

  50. So Tommy Douglas’s thinking on the subject 30 years ago is light years ahead of your typical right-wing conservative today. That’s hardly earth-shattering.
    Posted by: manny
    ====================
    No, manny. His thinking on the subject 30 years ago is light years ahead of your stereotype of the typical right-wing conservative today. But that’s hardly earth-shattering, either.

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