SDA readers get a hold of some topics, and like a pack of hungry terriers just don’t let go … I love it. Here then, is more fodder for the discussions found HERE and HERE:
175 Replies to “Fundamentally Flawed … con’t part 3”
“SDA readers get a hold of some topics, and like a pack of hungry terriers just don’t let go”
I quite agree with this assessment, but I’m not all that sure this is a quality to celebrate.
Steve,
and as to the topic????
Fukuyama was wrong, completely wrong. The end of the Soviet state did not signify the end of history, it beckoned its recommencement. That is, during the cold war (WWIII), the whole world was beholden to two armed camps. The stakes were too high to allow any “independant” outbreaks. After the collapse, the lid was lifted from the pressure cooker and the ancient, long term hostilities resurfaced.
Today, it is civilization versus brutalized ignorance. The West is being assailed by barbarians, muslim barbarians. And there is a sunstantial fifth column of useful idiots to assist them.
gnash, gnash.
Cjunk, ‘Fundamentally Flawed’ has raised religious passion alright. A lot of comments —- by only 5 or 6 people. The hundreds of others here are just amused with the hang-up.
What’s left to say? If serious people see the Muslim issue as a “hang up”, then we’re foobarred. I guess they just can’t conceive of a world where so many things we take for granted no longer exist.
I suppose Roman citizens of 200 AD could not conceive of a world where Rome no longer existed. It had military might, it had technological advances, it had a history of defeating all comers…
Three generations from now people are going to ask their grandparents: “What were you thinking? Didn’t you see this coming? Why did you let it happen?”.
The religious part of the extremists is the hang-up —- certainly not the terrorist, conquer-us part.
I like the fact that discussion on this topic and related topics isn’t just an echo-chamber at SDA, no matter how few or many engage in the discussion.
I seldom engage in discussions here to any great length, but I read most of them because there are usually gems to consider … I’ve read mountains of material on some topics, yet am sure to find fresh ideas and facts at SDA.
Kate has one of the most liberal comments policies; and it makes SDA my favorite stop. I guess what I’m trying to say without sounding patronizing, is that the personalities within the comments threads keep me coming back.
The vid I posted compares and contrasts wonderfully the two Western views … they hate us because we stick our nose into their business; they hate us because their religion teaches them so. Depending on what side most Westerners come down on, may determine whether Liberal Democracy will survive.
For SURE, we ARE in WWIII. Just how we all deal with it remains to be seen.
World War.. no doubt about it!
My apologies to all who rightfully conclude that I am behaving like a dog with a bone. In these postings especially the ones aimed at ET I have not meant to convert anyone. I have not meant to belittle anyone’s belief system. Nor are they intended to call anyone an immoral half wit who is bound for hell on the mere principle of the matter.
My point throughout this little session is to point out that religious people act according to their religious belief. Religious people are not about to change their point of view or their religious practices just to suit some academics wish list. Religious people act on deeply held beliefs that transcend present cultures and circumstances and this faith in action changes the world.
Finally I get more than a little perturbed with people who deny the existence of God based on their mental capacities. In so doing they are showing their own foolishness because they are elevating their own mind to the position of God and to borrow the title of J.B. Phillips book, “Your God is too Small”. I am always amazed at people with such sharp minds can refuse to even check out the assertion that God IS and wants to have a relationship with you. As I said before I am not trying to convert anyone. If I were seeking a conversion I would be telling everyone which church to go to. Instead I suggested that an honest seeker go to Church or Synagogue and listen to what is being said and shared then through repentance humble oneself enough to ask God to reveal Himself then wait. God’s revelation of Himself often begins right away but at other times it takes years. In our limited forms we can never grasp the fullness of God but as we seek Him He reveals Himself.
Let me use a little parable. A European explorer was traversing Western Canada The land is a vast empty expanse known as the Canadian Prairie. He encounters a tribe of people that tell him of huge snow covered hills just a bit farther west. He looks around and sees only prairie but on the off chance there is a huge hill covered with snow just a bit farther west He keeps going. Through the tall grass prairie to the short grass prairie every tribe he meets tell him about these huge snow covered hills. Mile after mile he goes expecting any moment to see huge snow covered hills. Finally he convinces himself that these natives are delusional and turns his way back to the east and never lays eyes upon the Rocky Mountains.
In this little parable I am the native tribe telling the explorer just a little farther on and you will find….
The explorer is anyone who will not make the effort required to find….
Is the explorer stupid? Of course not.
Is the explorer lazy? Nope
Then what is the point?
Just this, beyond that hill you will find… You can’t see it now and there’s a long way to go but going there you shall find Wisdom beyond the Philosopher, Peace beyond the Pacifist and LOVE beyond all understanding.
God Bless
Joe. Your parable suggests that anyone who rejects the existence of god simply hasn’t tried hard enough to find him.
Pretty circular argument, no?
Kate would say IGNORE THE TROLLS !!
They hijacked this topic yesterday. Enough already.
My apologies to all who rightfully conclude that I am behaving like a dog with a bone.
Joe, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for, your posts were a joy to read. Sure the thread wen off on a tangent but so what? Several of us were enjoying the discussion and expressing our opinions. The moderators surely realized this and were courteous to let us continue. Those like Ron who had no interest could go to any other thread, to whine about it is petty. The tremendous concept that is blogs with continuous topics thrives on discussion and it invariably leads off the main topic of the thread, most complex issues do. And to refer to any of the posters on that thread as extremists is laughable, hyper rhetoric to the absurd. No ones proselytizing, threatening one another, no one saying “my religion is better than yours”, “you’re going to hell if you don’t think like me”, etc. You want to see extremist? Go urinate on the wall of a mosque.
No Lori I would say most people fail to try because their intellectual limitations get in the way. They try to find God with their mind which doesn’t work in the spiritual realm the way it does in the physical realm so they belittle the whole idea as foolish superstition. Some day I would like to explain to you about the spiritual realm but now I need to rest so I will be able to properly minister tomorrow.
Good night and God Bless
Until the better red than dead crowd, the enemy within, is put down, one way or another, our Western Civilization and its ways are at supreme risk. The submissive left and their slithering on the bellies like a whipped dog mentality are the real enemy, not islam or the next communist threat.
The unprincipled and the weak, the lazy left, accept all views, it really shouldn’t be a hard fight, sheep are followers, not leaders and winners.
Is Harper the next moral Ronald Regan?
“I’ve read mountains of material on some topics, yet am sure to find fresh ideas and facts at SDA.”
Easy to be a fresh fact when it’s made up 🙂
I kid…
Please all, keep commenting. I have enjoyed reading the discussion and debate. Keep it civil and have at it!
joe, i would like my God to come now and put an end to the bullshit before it gets so deep we can’t shovel it.
“No one is against Allah, except those who burn in hell.”
vs.
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
There’s no real difference between these two unsubstantiated sentiments; just because the Muslims are deluded doesn’t mean that Christians aren’t EQUALLY deluded. At least most of the CHRISTIAN religous fruitcakes aren’t willing to kill people to shove their particular religion down their throats.
Hi jmorrison
How’s that? Turn the music up Buddy.
The first comment in the video has some truth in it, the islamic world does not hate us because we’re rich or because we’re free … They hate us because everything they’re taught is wrong, immoral or evil is done with glee in North America.
Just imagine if there was a country that embraced peadophiles on the same level that western culture has embraced homosexuals. You would hate this country regardless of whether they had any companies opperating in your country.
It’s not just islam, if you were teaching fundimental christianity as would have been taught by the puritans there would be dozens of issues which were fundimentally wrong that we embrace in our current culture.
Now, we have two choices, we can continue to live at risk until the islamic world catches up with the western world or we can go to work and drag the homosexual man who works there into the street and stone him. Personally, I choose to continue to live at risk and work toward changing the islamic world through peaceful (and if attacked forceful) actions.
SDC — Thanks for quoting Christ. If I had to choose between listening to him or you, it would be no contest. As for substantiation of claims, the miracles Christ did, the voice from heaven saying “This is my Son”, and the little matter of Christ’s resurrection from the dead are all evidences that substantiate his claim to be in unique communion with the Father. The fact that the leaders of the early church chose death rather than renounce their eye-witness testimony of Christ’s resurrection is further substantiation. As is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit — an experiential dimension that continues to this day and to which millions have attested.
Now, what are your credentials as a purveyor of truth?
Richard, the “eyewitness claims” of your religion are worth no more as solid evidence than the “eyewitness claims” of any OTHER religion; that, added to the self-contradictory nature of so much of the Christians’ magic book, and the fact that Christianity took over so much of the mythology associated with EARLIER religions (“virgin birth”, “resurrection”, “blood sacrifice”, etc., etc.) means that your religion is on exactly the same plane as any other religion. Believe what you wish, but “belief” doesn’t make it true.
“The religious part of the extremists is the hang-up —- certainly not the terrorist, conquer-us part.”
Islamic Terrorists are doing exactly what Mohammed did. He spread his religion by the sword and forced people that he conquered to become Muslims. The Quran is filled with verses commanding its followers to kill infidels and not to make friends with Christians or Jews. The traditional teachings of Islam promote conquest and forced submission under Sharia Law. Every Islamic dominated culture is identified by a lack of political, religious, and free speech rights. When examined by every human rights organization, Islamic countries are always the worst persecutors of those they disagree with. The notion of Islam being a religion of peace and tolerance is beyond absurd. Although some give lip service, no Islamic country practices equal rights for Christians, Jews or any other non-muslim.
Who we refer to as terrorists, according to the Quran and the Hadith, are the devout muslims. Islam itself is the cause of Islamofascist terrorism. Always has been and will continue to be, as long as people don’t clearly get this distinction and act on it.
“At least most of the CHRISTIAN religous fruitcakes aren’t willing to kill people to shove their particular religion down their throats.”
And why is that?
Islam is based on foundational and perpetual violence until the whole world is for allah. Christianity is not, regardless of what some have done. To think there is some sort of moral equivalence between the two simply shows the persons ignorance, stupidity, malevolence and prejudice.
From the Times online:
“One of the world’s most respected Deobandi scholars believes that aggressive military jihad should be waged by Muslims “to establish the supremacy of Islam” worldwide.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking.
Further, Usmani’s justification for aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy is revealed at the climax of his book, Islam and Modernism. The work is a polemic against Islamic modernists who seek to convert the entire Koran into “a poetic and metaphorical book” because, he says, they have been bewitched by Western culture and ideology.
The final chapter delivers a rebuke to those who believe that only defensive jihad (fighting to defend a Muslim land that is under attack or occupation) is permissible in Islam. He refutes the suggestion that jihad is unlawful against a nonMuslim state that freely permits the preaching of Islam.
For Mr Usmani, “the question is whether aggressive battle is by itself commendable or not”. “If it is, why should the Muslims stop simply because territorial expansion in these days is regarded as bad? And if it is not commendable, but deplorable, why did Islam not stop it in the past?”
He answers his own question thus: “Even in those days . . . aggressive jihads were waged . . . because it was truly commendable for establishing the grandeur of the religion of Allah.”
These words are not the product of a radical extremist. They come from the pen of one of the most acclaimed scholars in the Deobandi tradition.”
If it’s in the bitch, it’s in the pups:
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Defining Our Struggle
By Dennis Prager
FrontPageMagazine.com | Tuesday, May 09, 2006
To understand what Americans are fighting, it is necessary to first understand that we are not fighting a “War on Terror.” We are no more fighting a “War on Terror” than we fought a “War on Kamikazes” in World War II. Of course we had to stop Kamikaze attacks, the suicide crashing by Japanese pilots of airplanes into American war ships. But we were fighting Japanese fascism and imperialism.
The same holds true today. We are fighting Islamic fascism and imperialism (though surely not all Muslims).
The parallels are almost as extensive as any historic parallels of two different phenomena can be. The fascist Japanese regime aimed to subjugate much of the world, Asia in particular, and it used whatever violence it could think of without any moral constraints. The fascist element within Islam wishes to subjugate the entire world using whatever violence it can think of without any moral constraints.
Of course, there are differences: Imperial Japan was preoccupied with dominating Asia, while imperialist Islam aims to dominate the whole world. And imperial Japan did so as an outgrowth of nationalism, while imperialist Islam does so from an outgrowth of a trans-national religious ideology.
Islamic terror is a tactic of an ideology. That ideology can be called “radical Islam,” “militant Islam” or “Islamist,” but it is rooted in Islamic imperialism.
With a background in religious studies and having studied Arabic and Islam, many listeners have called my radio show asking me if I consider Islam to be inherently violent or even evil. From 9-11 to now, I have responded that I do not assess religions; I assess the practitioners of religions. Why? Because it is almost impossible to assess any religion since its own adherents so often differ as to what it is. For example, is Christianity the Christianity of most evangelicals or that of the National Council of Churches? On virtually every important moral issue, they differ. The same holds true for right- and left-wing groups within Judaism.
Nevertheless, one can say that from its inception, Islam has been imperialist. My working definition of imperialism is that of University of London professor Efraim Karsh, whose recent book, “Islamic Imperialism” (Yale University Press), is one of the few indispensable books on Islam.
Karsh defines imperialism as “conquering foreign lands and subjugating their populations.” Whenever possible, Muslims from the time of Muhammad have done that. Now, the Church also subjugated peoples to Christianity, and Europe suffered from prolonged religious wars. But as Karsh notes, from its inception, Christianity acknowledged a separation of the religious and the political, rendering to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.
No such division was allowed for in Islam. That is why the nation-state developed in the Christian world but not in the Muslim world. The Muslim states of the Middle East, for example, are creations of Western (secular) imperialism or pre-date Islam (Egypt, for example); and they are foreign concepts to most Middle Eastern Muslims, who recognize themselves much more as part of the ummah, the Muslim community, than as Iraqis, Jordanians, Syrians, etc.
Nor is Islamic imperialism only a function of Muslim behavior rather than Muslim theology. Karsh opens his book citing the statements of four Muslim figures.
Muhammad in his farewell address: “I was ordered to fight all men until they say, ‘There is no god but Allah.'”
Saladin (great 12th-century founder of the Ayyubid dynasty that included Ayyubid Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iraq and much of present-day Saudi Arabia): “I shall cross this sea to their islands to pursue them until there remains no one on the face of the earth who does not acknowledge Allah.”
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (father of the Islamic revolution in Iran): “We will export our revolution throughout the world . . . until the calls ‘There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah’ are echoed all over the world.”
Osama bin Laden in November 2001: “I was ordered to fight the people until they say ‘there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad.'”
Nearly two centuries ago Rabbi Barukh told his disciples a story. “His grandson David was once playing hide and seek with another boy. He hid himself well and waited for his playmate to find him. When he had waited for a long time, he came out of his hiding place, but the other child was nowhere to be seen. Now David realized that his friend had not looked for him from the very beginning. This made him cry, and crying he ran to his grandfather and complained about his faithless friend. Then tears brimmed in Rabbi Barukh’s eyes and he said: ‘God says the same thing: “I hide, but no one wants to seek me”’” (Tales of the Hasidim, Martin Buber).
The You-tube video was excellent.
What becomes apparent is that people like Bill Maher have not actually read the Bible but feel quite free to make stuff up about it – Noah was Jewish (not so), G-d smotes people for no reason (not so, the Canaanites are to be destroyed because among other nasty things, they practice child sacrifice).
All ideas are not equivalent. The JudeoChristian Bible is not the same as the Koran at all. Western people now a days have no Bible knowledge and this makes them like “cut flowers” living the benefits of their roots but cut off from them – leaving them to whither and die.
I agree with lookout in the previous thread ” I think a case could be made that Christians, as a group, despite their lapses, have also contributed a huge amount to the world.” This to me is evidence of G-d moving in history. Christians took the Torah and brought its wisdom to the rest of the planet. Thanks to Jesus and Paul everyone reads Psalms. And Christians recognize that the existence of the modern state of Israel is proof that G-d keeps his promises.
Sorry about the last part of the post, Didn’t mean to add it.
From a Toronto mosque’s website: http://www.khalidmosque.com/en/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=386&page=1
“Fataawa From al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah
“It is prescribed for Muslims who have the misfortune to live in kaafir states to unite, to form bonds amongst themselves and cooperate with oÂne another, because that is a kind of cooperating in righteousness and piety
And Allaah is the Source of strength. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions.”
‘The disbelievers (that’s Jews and Christians) are misguided, and their ways are based o�n sick or deviant views concerning their societies, the universe, and their very existence. Their actions frequently reflect their deviant opinions. Why then would anyone ever think of imitating them?”
· What is the attitude of Islam towards political parties and those who indulge in them?
Question:
“Some people are Muslims but they indulge in political parties. These parties are many and varied, such as the Progressive party, the Socialist party, the Independence party, the Liberal party, the Nationalist party, the Youth party, the Democratic party, and other parties which are all more or less similar. What is the attitude of Islam towards these parties, and towards Muslims who indulge in these parties – is their Islam sound?”
Another fine example of moderate islam:
TIMESONLINE: Some Muslim medical students are refusing to attend lectures or answer exam questions on alcohol-related or sexually transmitted diseases because they claim it offends their religious beliefs.
Some trainee doctors say learning to treat the diseases conflicts with their faith, which states that Muslims should not drink alcohol and rejects sexual promiscuity.
A small number of Muslim medical students have even refused to treat patients of the opposite sex. One male student was prepared to fail his final exams rather than carry out a basic examination of a female patient.
The religious objections by students have been confirmed by the British Medical Association (BMA) and General Medical Council (GMC), which both stressed that they did not approve of such actions.
It will intensify the debate sparked last week by the disclosure that Sainsbury’s is permitting Muslim checkout operators to refuse to handle customers’ alcohol purchases on religious grounds. It means other members of staff have to be called over to scan in wine and beer for them at the till.
———————–
The more of them you allow in, the quicker the false veil of ‘peace’ is removed and the more bold they become in their demands for shariah. And make no mistake they are bringing shariah through the wests antiquated idea of ‘freedom of religion’ – as if all religions are morally and ethically equivalent.
Now, we have two choices, we can continue to live at risk until the islamic world catches up with the western world or we can go to work and drag the homosexual man who works there into the street and stone him. Personally, I choose to continue to live at risk and work toward changing the islamic world through peaceful (and if attacked forceful) actions.
Thank you Neville, if you haven’t noticed we’ve been attacked for over a decade. You sing kumara to the Muslims since they’ve been so receptive to it. Did you see how the Koranimals reacted when a few benign cartoons were drawn of Muhammad?
You need to read this site: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Good Morning,
Comparing Christianity and Islam is like comparing apples and oranges. After a few thousand years they are rotten and do as much harm as good. God is dead. Nietzsche killed him and Camus put the nails in the coffin.
I’m just joking, God isn’t dead. He just doesn’t seem to exist. Some may believe he exists, but they are wrong to assume that their belief is knowledge of his existence.
Who are we to attribute our innate desires to do good for ourselves and others to a God? Our charity and compassion comes from our will to survive, not to our great sky pilot of eternal compassion.
So why rain on everyone’s Islam is terrible, Christianity is great parade? My friends, they are the same. Every religion is the same. They may be practiced differently but they all have the same tenets. Sikhism is to Buddhism is to Hinduism is to Zoroastrianism what Islam is to Christianity is to Judaism is to Gnosticism. We have the violents, the virgin births and saviours, the chosen ones who desperately seek solace, and the strange roots of all of them.
Living your life without travel, is like being religious without being open to change, no reading a book without ever turning the page.
I’ll either be ignored or attacked but either way today should be fun.
“Fundamentally Flawed … ”
…is any discussion on important measures such as immigration that doesn’t include data. You’re just wanking in front of a mirror, essentially, and changing no one’s mind.
It is one thing for people who take the time to inform themselves on such subjects – by reading any number of sites chronicling daily Muslim behaviour – to be inundated by the bilious venom and vitriol than spews forth daily from the mouths of followers of the Religion of Peace™.
It will be another thing to document such outrages and to compile them in a permanent sidebar to SDA – with one notable exception …. Change every derogatory reference these sandfleas make to “the West,” “Jews,” “infidels,” “crusade,” “America,” etc., etc., to read “the Middle East,” “Muslims,” “jihad,” “believers,” “Arabia,” etc., etc. in its place.
Sit back and watch the reaction.
Entitle the sidebar “The Daily Multiculturalism OOPS!”
Proper context would, of course, be of prime importance in such figurative transliterations, but I am convinced there is sufficient expertise out there that could accommodate such substitutions.
The Point —-> It’s not Islam that will take over the west. That just assumes that correlation equals causation. It’s fascist thugs who will take over the west, just like they took over Rome. Gibbon actually blamed the fall of Rome on the Christians. In his opinion they were the ideologues who started forcing conversions on other people, whereas the polytheists didn’t care so long as no one rocked the boat.
“Every religion is the same.”
Notice the moral equivilency so typical of today’s youth. See, this is another reason why the anti-Muslim jihad is stupid; the same club will be used to persecute Christians. And if your anti-Muslim crusade is really a closet anti-Christian crusade, then you are the enemy of western civilization.
Atheism was tried in the Soviet Union. It failed, and Christianity flourishes.
Atheism was tried in Cambodia. It failed, and Buddhism flourishes.
Atheism was tried in Mao’s China. It failed, and Christianity flourishes.
To the extent that atheism is practiced in North America it has succeeded in nothing less than it’s own self-abortion. Atheism aborts itself and therefore cannot be considered a reasonable or sustainable ideology.
“… They hate us because everything they’re taught is wrong, immoral or evil is done with glee in North America.” NoOne
Yes, they saw Spin Doctors and the media give an Oval Office Pedophile a pass.
Is there really such a thing as a moderate muslim? Or are they all just latent extremists? I believe that the argument that there is a moderate muslim is quite close to the NDP’s position of saying we support the troops but not the mission.Which we know is just empty meaningless blather. If you support Islam (the soldiers) then you must also support the eventual conquest of the world (the mission).
“Yes, they saw Spin Doctors and the media give an Oval Office Pedophile a pass.”
Getting a hummer from twenty one year old college graduate is pedophilia? Whose side are you on?
“kumara”? Should be kumbaya.
jmorrison “joe, i would like my God to come now and put an end to the bullshit before it gets so deep we can’t shovel it”
LOL Sometimes in my darker moments I feel the same way. Then I re-discover beauty. That intangeable essence that I can and I can know but can never understand. The beauty of a new mother giving suckle to her offspring. The beauty of the sick, lame and defenceless as they struggle to make their way in this world. The beauty od the young man so confident and cocksure he will take on the world if only to win the love of his girl. Then there is the extreme beauty of a broken and contrite heart reaching out to that ineffable essence that is the source of all that is Beauty.
Off to church the flock is in need of the Body and the Blood.
irwin daisy, thanks for reprising Dennis Prager’s article. It seemed familiar, and after checking the date, I knew I read it some time back (believe it was at Townhall.com). Prager makes no secret of the fact that he has, for many years, tried to find common ground between Christians, Judaists, and Muslims. He’s interviewed a great many representatives from all 3 of these major faiths; as much as anyone (more than most, probably) Prager has tried to bridge the gaps towards an understanding between these 3 religions.
But there’s a problem; Islamic extremists use religion to cloak their fascist political ideology, of that there is no question. Is there?
How can there be any question about it?
It’s not up to me, or ANY non-Muslim, to simply accept the “truth” that Islam is a peaceful religion without such truth actively demonstrated by MAJOR figureheads of the religion of Islam. This is where a guy like Dennis Prager is really valuable, in my opinion. He can give voice NOT to Muslim “rationalists” who try to “explain” what Islam is about, trying to “lead” non-believers in the path of “truth and light” as revealed in the Quran, blah, blah, blah…, but to Muslim adherents who are willing to PUBLICLY and LOUDLY condemn the psychotic, murderous behavior engaged in by the whackos of Islam. I like Glenn Beck’s approach, too, by way of his interviews of guests like Zudi Jasser and Irshad Manji (he had an hour-long show with Manji a few months ago).
Frankly, TRULY rational Muslims had better start to nurture those voices which speak out against practitioners of Islam who believe in murder, mayhem, the “caliphate”, etc… because, in the end, if the nut cases win out, there WON’T be any nuanced distinction made between “moderate” Muslims and “fundamentalist” Muslims (read, dirty nuke going off in New York, or Oklahoma City, or Kansas City, or Vancouver,…). Most Germans weren’t Nazis, but in 1943, 40,000 residents of Hamburg died in a single night anyway.
By the way, I’m NOT criticizing the way our parents, grand parents, great grand parents, conducted the Second World War… that’s just the way it is.
Good morning Jon. but they are wrong to assume that their belief is knowledge of his existence.
This is why it’s called faith. However, I believe it takes a greater leap of faith to believe God doesn’t exist. The origins of life still cannot be explained by the Darwinians nor can they account for the varying species. If evolution to life from dirt is a natural process we should be able to find some forms of life on other planets. Surely some kind of organism must have evolved. Who are we to attribute our innate desires to do good for ourselves and others to a God? Our charity and compassion comes from our will to survive, not to our great sky pilot of eternal compassion.
There have been many studies done on this in America. The overwhelming charitable contributors [money/time] are Conservatives/Republicans. They give vastly more than their democrat counterparts because they see it as a moral obligation and want to help their fellow citizen. Religious democrats, as few as there are, do contribute as well. The overwhelming majority of the left sees the govt as their nanny and expects the govt to do the charitable work, so they don’t. It’s a philosophical difference between the sides. My friends, they are the same.
Jon, there is no comparison between the greatness that Judeo/Christian values have had on the world and the inhuman barbarity that islam has plagued the world with. Islamists in Beslan, Russia held 300 children and adults in a school hostage for several days and when the Russians attempted a rescue these Islamic subhumans started massacring the children. There is no moral equivalence between Muslims and Jews/Christians. Living your life without travel, is like being religious without being open to change…..
Agreed.
Regarding Praeger’s article- it is full of historical and religious nonsense and should be taken with a very large grain of salt. A few examples: …from its inception, Christianity acknowledged a separation of the religious and the political, rendering to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.
Probably the most ridiculous statement he makes. Separation of church and state in Christianity is a very recent phenomenom. The Muslim states of the Middle East, for example, are creations of Western (secular) imperialism or pre-date Islam…
Really? What about Turkey? Or Saudi Arabia? While Islam calls for primacy of the Ummah, the reality is that in Islamic history the unified Caliphate lasted for only a few centuries before shattering into a multitude of kingdoms. Many were later destroyed by Ottoman and Christian conquests, but to argue that Muslims have never had separate countries of their own creation is patently ridiculous.
there is no comparison between the greatness that Judeo/Christian values have had on the world and the inhuman barbarity that islam has plagued the world with
Nonsense. Extreme acts of barbarity have been committed in the names of all religions, including Christianity. By pulling quotes from religious texts out of context, any act can be justified.
I didn’t know this disturbing fact:
“How and Why do Canada born and bred Muslims end up going feral?
To answer this question we need to know what happens in every Muslim home in Canada (and in fact all across the globe):
Before the Eid-ul-Zuha festival, every Muslim father brings home a baby goat (kid) and tells his child to play with that kid. As days pass, the child grows fond of the goat-kid for some days and when the day of Eid-ul-Zuha comes when the child is shocked to see that his pet goat is slaughtered in front of his entire gleeful and cheering family. The child feels guilty, he cries and asks for his friend (the goat-kid) to be spared. But when the goat is slaughtered in spite of this, and the child is told that this is part of Muslim tradition – the child is bewildered.
After one year round the same time, the same ritual is repeated. Now the child is one year older, but he still has the innocence to play with a pet and grow fond of the pet. When the day arrives, the goat is again slaughtered, and the child is reminded of this being a hoary tradition. The child still feels guilty, but his guilt is now numbed by the words that repeatedly fall on his ears, that this is a qurbani (a sacrifice) and that it is our holy duty to kill.
A year after that the child is again asked to play with a goat and on the day of the feast of Eid-ul-Zuha, he is asked to hold the dagger and help out in slaughtering the goat. The child gradually grows hard-hearted and now starts enjoying this ritual of killing the goat – A Muslim is made!
The point to be noted is that till the Muslim population does not reach a certain critical mass, the Muslims adapt to the country of adoption. Till then they pretend assimilate the host countries culture, but like to create their Ghettos, away from the mainstream of that country. And when their numbers reach a critical mass, they start what Mohammed started in Mecca, the Razzias or Gazhawats (raids) against the non-Muslims. The plot to storm our Parliament was just the tip of the iceberg of such Razzias. This plot is only the first critical warning shot of the shape of things to come.
There can also never ever be any discussion on the murderous commands of the Quran, since it is the word of god, or so Mohammed (yimach shmo ve-zichro – may his name and memory be obliterated) told his followers.
Assemble five times a day to swear your loyalty to Islam
To be doubly sure that his flock remains together in to its murderous ken (prison), he decreed that it was compulsory for all Muslims to come together and pray five times during the day. So there wasn’t any chance for his followers to leave Islam and emancipate themselves.
Excerpts from: historyofjihad.org/canada.html (it’s a bit repetitive, but informative)
Nonsense.
One merely needs to look at the theocratic societies in muslim countries where women are stoned to death, homosexuals are hanged, children have their throats cut for perceived shame brought upon a family, female genital mutilation, treating women as chattel, depriving women of an education, preaching hate to children for early on, etc. Islam is a plague on the world; covert or die infidel.
Funny how you anti religionists have to go back centuries to find Christian barbarity.
***co[n]vert or die infidel.
I think I need more coffee.
Apollyon,
The question of the creation or evolution of life on planet earth is a good one. How was it possible for an animate object to come from one that is inanimate? I can believe that God infused life into that organism, or created a man out of clay, or I can know that I have no answer and must continue to search for it.
As for moral equivalence, the major religions are only equivalent in the manner that they take individual responsibility for thought and hand it to the preachers who interpret the words of god.
I can believe that God infused life into that organism, or created a man out of clay, or I can know that I have no answer and must continue to search for it.
Jon, this is why I say science will bring us closer to God. Anthony Flew’s [one of the godfathers of atheism] revelation is a testament to this.
Funny how you anti religionists have to go back centuries to find Christian barbarity.
Who says I’m an “anti religionist”[sic]? I’d just like to see some accuracy in this discussion. As for having to go back centuries to see Christian barbarity, you’re not serious, right? Pop quiz – who killed more people in the 20th century, Muslims or Christians?
“SDA readers get a hold of some topics, and like a pack of hungry terriers just don’t let go”
I quite agree with this assessment, but I’m not all that sure this is a quality to celebrate.
Steve,
and as to the topic????
Fukuyama was wrong, completely wrong. The end of the Soviet state did not signify the end of history, it beckoned its recommencement. That is, during the cold war (WWIII), the whole world was beholden to two armed camps. The stakes were too high to allow any “independant” outbreaks. After the collapse, the lid was lifted from the pressure cooker and the ancient, long term hostilities resurfaced.
Today, it is civilization versus brutalized ignorance. The West is being assailed by barbarians, muslim barbarians. And there is a sunstantial fifth column of useful idiots to assist them.
gnash, gnash.
Cjunk, ‘Fundamentally Flawed’ has raised religious passion alright. A lot of comments —- by only 5 or 6 people. The hundreds of others here are just amused with the hang-up.
What’s left to say? If serious people see the Muslim issue as a “hang up”, then we’re foobarred. I guess they just can’t conceive of a world where so many things we take for granted no longer exist.
I suppose Roman citizens of 200 AD could not conceive of a world where Rome no longer existed. It had military might, it had technological advances, it had a history of defeating all comers…
Three generations from now people are going to ask their grandparents: “What were you thinking? Didn’t you see this coming? Why did you let it happen?”.
The religious part of the extremists is the hang-up —- certainly not the terrorist, conquer-us part.
I like the fact that discussion on this topic and related topics isn’t just an echo-chamber at SDA, no matter how few or many engage in the discussion.
I seldom engage in discussions here to any great length, but I read most of them because there are usually gems to consider … I’ve read mountains of material on some topics, yet am sure to find fresh ideas and facts at SDA.
Kate has one of the most liberal comments policies; and it makes SDA my favorite stop. I guess what I’m trying to say without sounding patronizing, is that the personalities within the comments threads keep me coming back.
The vid I posted compares and contrasts wonderfully the two Western views … they hate us because we stick our nose into their business; they hate us because their religion teaches them so. Depending on what side most Westerners come down on, may determine whether Liberal Democracy will survive.
Here’s the longer version of the “they hate us because we stick our nose into their business” argument:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AiiZT2ItpbQ
We are at war…we just dont realize it yet
For SURE, we ARE in WWIII. Just how we all deal with it remains to be seen.
World War.. no doubt about it!
My apologies to all who rightfully conclude that I am behaving like a dog with a bone. In these postings especially the ones aimed at ET I have not meant to convert anyone. I have not meant to belittle anyone’s belief system. Nor are they intended to call anyone an immoral half wit who is bound for hell on the mere principle of the matter.
My point throughout this little session is to point out that religious people act according to their religious belief. Religious people are not about to change their point of view or their religious practices just to suit some academics wish list. Religious people act on deeply held beliefs that transcend present cultures and circumstances and this faith in action changes the world.
Finally I get more than a little perturbed with people who deny the existence of God based on their mental capacities. In so doing they are showing their own foolishness because they are elevating their own mind to the position of God and to borrow the title of J.B. Phillips book, “Your God is too Small”. I am always amazed at people with such sharp minds can refuse to even check out the assertion that God IS and wants to have a relationship with you. As I said before I am not trying to convert anyone. If I were seeking a conversion I would be telling everyone which church to go to. Instead I suggested that an honest seeker go to Church or Synagogue and listen to what is being said and shared then through repentance humble oneself enough to ask God to reveal Himself then wait. God’s revelation of Himself often begins right away but at other times it takes years. In our limited forms we can never grasp the fullness of God but as we seek Him He reveals Himself.
Let me use a little parable. A European explorer was traversing Western Canada The land is a vast empty expanse known as the Canadian Prairie. He encounters a tribe of people that tell him of huge snow covered hills just a bit farther west. He looks around and sees only prairie but on the off chance there is a huge hill covered with snow just a bit farther west He keeps going. Through the tall grass prairie to the short grass prairie every tribe he meets tell him about these huge snow covered hills. Mile after mile he goes expecting any moment to see huge snow covered hills. Finally he convinces himself that these natives are delusional and turns his way back to the east and never lays eyes upon the Rocky Mountains.
In this little parable I am the native tribe telling the explorer just a little farther on and you will find….
The explorer is anyone who will not make the effort required to find….
Is the explorer stupid? Of course not.
Is the explorer lazy? Nope
Then what is the point?
Just this, beyond that hill you will find… You can’t see it now and there’s a long way to go but going there you shall find Wisdom beyond the Philosopher, Peace beyond the Pacifist and LOVE beyond all understanding.
God Bless
Joe. Your parable suggests that anyone who rejects the existence of god simply hasn’t tried hard enough to find him.
Pretty circular argument, no?
Kate would say IGNORE THE TROLLS !!
They hijacked this topic yesterday. Enough already.
My apologies to all who rightfully conclude that I am behaving like a dog with a bone.
Joe, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for, your posts were a joy to read. Sure the thread wen off on a tangent but so what? Several of us were enjoying the discussion and expressing our opinions. The moderators surely realized this and were courteous to let us continue. Those like Ron who had no interest could go to any other thread, to whine about it is petty. The tremendous concept that is blogs with continuous topics thrives on discussion and it invariably leads off the main topic of the thread, most complex issues do. And to refer to any of the posters on that thread as extremists is laughable, hyper rhetoric to the absurd. No ones proselytizing, threatening one another, no one saying “my religion is better than yours”, “you’re going to hell if you don’t think like me”, etc. You want to see extremist? Go urinate on the wall of a mosque.
No Lori I would say most people fail to try because their intellectual limitations get in the way. They try to find God with their mind which doesn’t work in the spiritual realm the way it does in the physical realm so they belittle the whole idea as foolish superstition. Some day I would like to explain to you about the spiritual realm but now I need to rest so I will be able to properly minister tomorrow.
Good night and God Bless
Until the better red than dead crowd, the enemy within, is put down, one way or another, our Western Civilization and its ways are at supreme risk. The submissive left and their slithering on the bellies like a whipped dog mentality are the real enemy, not islam or the next communist threat.
The unprincipled and the weak, the lazy left, accept all views, it really shouldn’t be a hard fight, sheep are followers, not leaders and winners.
Is Harper the next moral Ronald Regan?
“I’ve read mountains of material on some topics, yet am sure to find fresh ideas and facts at SDA.”
Easy to be a fresh fact when it’s made up 🙂
I kid…
Please all, keep commenting. I have enjoyed reading the discussion and debate. Keep it civil and have at it!
joe, i would like my God to come now and put an end to the bullshit before it gets so deep we can’t shovel it.
“No one is against Allah, except those who burn in hell.”
vs.
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
There’s no real difference between these two unsubstantiated sentiments; just because the Muslims are deluded doesn’t mean that Christians aren’t EQUALLY deluded. At least most of the CHRISTIAN religous fruitcakes aren’t willing to kill people to shove their particular religion down their throats.
Hi jmorrison
How’s that? Turn the music up Buddy.
The first comment in the video has some truth in it, the islamic world does not hate us because we’re rich or because we’re free … They hate us because everything they’re taught is wrong, immoral or evil is done with glee in North America.
Just imagine if there was a country that embraced peadophiles on the same level that western culture has embraced homosexuals. You would hate this country regardless of whether they had any companies opperating in your country.
It’s not just islam, if you were teaching fundimental christianity as would have been taught by the puritans there would be dozens of issues which were fundimentally wrong that we embrace in our current culture.
Now, we have two choices, we can continue to live at risk until the islamic world catches up with the western world or we can go to work and drag the homosexual man who works there into the street and stone him. Personally, I choose to continue to live at risk and work toward changing the islamic world through peaceful (and if attacked forceful) actions.
SDC — Thanks for quoting Christ. If I had to choose between listening to him or you, it would be no contest. As for substantiation of claims, the miracles Christ did, the voice from heaven saying “This is my Son”, and the little matter of Christ’s resurrection from the dead are all evidences that substantiate his claim to be in unique communion with the Father. The fact that the leaders of the early church chose death rather than renounce their eye-witness testimony of Christ’s resurrection is further substantiation. As is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit — an experiential dimension that continues to this day and to which millions have attested.
Now, what are your credentials as a purveyor of truth?
Richard, the “eyewitness claims” of your religion are worth no more as solid evidence than the “eyewitness claims” of any OTHER religion; that, added to the self-contradictory nature of so much of the Christians’ magic book, and the fact that Christianity took over so much of the mythology associated with EARLIER religions (“virgin birth”, “resurrection”, “blood sacrifice”, etc., etc.) means that your religion is on exactly the same plane as any other religion. Believe what you wish, but “belief” doesn’t make it true.
“The religious part of the extremists is the hang-up —- certainly not the terrorist, conquer-us part.”
Islamic Terrorists are doing exactly what Mohammed did. He spread his religion by the sword and forced people that he conquered to become Muslims. The Quran is filled with verses commanding its followers to kill infidels and not to make friends with Christians or Jews. The traditional teachings of Islam promote conquest and forced submission under Sharia Law. Every Islamic dominated culture is identified by a lack of political, religious, and free speech rights. When examined by every human rights organization, Islamic countries are always the worst persecutors of those they disagree with. The notion of Islam being a religion of peace and tolerance is beyond absurd. Although some give lip service, no Islamic country practices equal rights for Christians, Jews or any other non-muslim.
Who we refer to as terrorists, according to the Quran and the Hadith, are the devout muslims. Islam itself is the cause of Islamofascist terrorism. Always has been and will continue to be, as long as people don’t clearly get this distinction and act on it.
“At least most of the CHRISTIAN religous fruitcakes aren’t willing to kill people to shove their particular religion down their throats.”
And why is that?
Islam is based on foundational and perpetual violence until the whole world is for allah. Christianity is not, regardless of what some have done. To think there is some sort of moral equivalence between the two simply shows the persons ignorance, stupidity, malevolence and prejudice.
From the Times online:
“One of the world’s most respected Deobandi scholars believes that aggressive military jihad should be waged by Muslims “to establish the supremacy of Islam” worldwide.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.
His views explode the myth that the creed of offensive, expansionist jihad represents a distortion of traditional Islamic thinking.
Further, Usmani’s justification for aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy is revealed at the climax of his book, Islam and Modernism. The work is a polemic against Islamic modernists who seek to convert the entire Koran into “a poetic and metaphorical book” because, he says, they have been bewitched by Western culture and ideology.
The final chapter delivers a rebuke to those who believe that only defensive jihad (fighting to defend a Muslim land that is under attack or occupation) is permissible in Islam. He refutes the suggestion that jihad is unlawful against a nonMuslim state that freely permits the preaching of Islam.
For Mr Usmani, “the question is whether aggressive battle is by itself commendable or not”. “If it is, why should the Muslims stop simply because territorial expansion in these days is regarded as bad? And if it is not commendable, but deplorable, why did Islam not stop it in the past?”
He answers his own question thus: “Even in those days . . . aggressive jihads were waged . . . because it was truly commendable for establishing the grandeur of the religion of Allah.”
These words are not the product of a radical extremist. They come from the pen of one of the most acclaimed scholars in the Deobandi tradition.”
If it’s in the bitch, it’s in the pups:
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Defining Our Struggle
By Dennis Prager
FrontPageMagazine.com | Tuesday, May 09, 2006
To understand what Americans are fighting, it is necessary to first understand that we are not fighting a “War on Terror.” We are no more fighting a “War on Terror” than we fought a “War on Kamikazes” in World War II. Of course we had to stop Kamikaze attacks, the suicide crashing by Japanese pilots of airplanes into American war ships. But we were fighting Japanese fascism and imperialism.
The same holds true today. We are fighting Islamic fascism and imperialism (though surely not all Muslims).
The parallels are almost as extensive as any historic parallels of two different phenomena can be. The fascist Japanese regime aimed to subjugate much of the world, Asia in particular, and it used whatever violence it could think of without any moral constraints. The fascist element within Islam wishes to subjugate the entire world using whatever violence it can think of without any moral constraints.
Of course, there are differences: Imperial Japan was preoccupied with dominating Asia, while imperialist Islam aims to dominate the whole world. And imperial Japan did so as an outgrowth of nationalism, while imperialist Islam does so from an outgrowth of a trans-national religious ideology.
Islamic terror is a tactic of an ideology. That ideology can be called “radical Islam,” “militant Islam” or “Islamist,” but it is rooted in Islamic imperialism.
With a background in religious studies and having studied Arabic and Islam, many listeners have called my radio show asking me if I consider Islam to be inherently violent or even evil. From 9-11 to now, I have responded that I do not assess religions; I assess the practitioners of religions. Why? Because it is almost impossible to assess any religion since its own adherents so often differ as to what it is. For example, is Christianity the Christianity of most evangelicals or that of the National Council of Churches? On virtually every important moral issue, they differ. The same holds true for right- and left-wing groups within Judaism.
Nevertheless, one can say that from its inception, Islam has been imperialist. My working definition of imperialism is that of University of London professor Efraim Karsh, whose recent book, “Islamic Imperialism” (Yale University Press), is one of the few indispensable books on Islam.
Karsh defines imperialism as “conquering foreign lands and subjugating their populations.” Whenever possible, Muslims from the time of Muhammad have done that. Now, the Church also subjugated peoples to Christianity, and Europe suffered from prolonged religious wars. But as Karsh notes, from its inception, Christianity acknowledged a separation of the religious and the political, rendering to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.
No such division was allowed for in Islam. That is why the nation-state developed in the Christian world but not in the Muslim world. The Muslim states of the Middle East, for example, are creations of Western (secular) imperialism or pre-date Islam (Egypt, for example); and they are foreign concepts to most Middle Eastern Muslims, who recognize themselves much more as part of the ummah, the Muslim community, than as Iraqis, Jordanians, Syrians, etc.
Nor is Islamic imperialism only a function of Muslim behavior rather than Muslim theology. Karsh opens his book citing the statements of four Muslim figures.
Muhammad in his farewell address: “I was ordered to fight all men until they say, ‘There is no god but Allah.'”
Saladin (great 12th-century founder of the Ayyubid dynasty that included Ayyubid Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iraq and much of present-day Saudi Arabia): “I shall cross this sea to their islands to pursue them until there remains no one on the face of the earth who does not acknowledge Allah.”
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (father of the Islamic revolution in Iran): “We will export our revolution throughout the world . . . until the calls ‘There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah’ are echoed all over the world.”
Osama bin Laden in November 2001: “I was ordered to fight the people until they say ‘there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad.'”
Nearly two centuries ago Rabbi Barukh told his disciples a story. “His grandson David was once playing hide and seek with another boy. He hid himself well and waited for his playmate to find him. When he had waited for a long time, he came out of his hiding place, but the other child was nowhere to be seen. Now David realized that his friend had not looked for him from the very beginning. This made him cry, and crying he ran to his grandfather and complained about his faithless friend. Then tears brimmed in Rabbi Barukh’s eyes and he said: ‘God says the same thing: “I hide, but no one wants to seek me”’” (Tales of the Hasidim, Martin Buber).
The You-tube video was excellent.
What becomes apparent is that people like Bill Maher have not actually read the Bible but feel quite free to make stuff up about it – Noah was Jewish (not so), G-d smotes people for no reason (not so, the Canaanites are to be destroyed because among other nasty things, they practice child sacrifice).
All ideas are not equivalent. The JudeoChristian Bible is not the same as the Koran at all. Western people now a days have no Bible knowledge and this makes them like “cut flowers” living the benefits of their roots but cut off from them – leaving them to whither and die.
I agree with lookout in the previous thread ” I think a case could be made that Christians, as a group, despite their lapses, have also contributed a huge amount to the world.” This to me is evidence of G-d moving in history. Christians took the Torah and brought its wisdom to the rest of the planet. Thanks to Jesus and Paul everyone reads Psalms. And Christians recognize that the existence of the modern state of Israel is proof that G-d keeps his promises.
Sorry about the last part of the post, Didn’t mean to add it.
From a Toronto mosque’s website:
http://www.khalidmosque.com/en/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=386&page=1
“Fataawa From al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah
“It is prescribed for Muslims who have the misfortune to live in kaafir states to unite, to form bonds amongst themselves and cooperate with oÂne another, because that is a kind of cooperating in righteousness and piety
And Allaah is the Source of strength. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions.”
‘The disbelievers (that’s Jews and Christians) are misguided, and their ways are based o�n sick or deviant views concerning their societies, the universe, and their very existence. Their actions frequently reflect their deviant opinions. Why then would anyone ever think of imitating them?”
· What is the attitude of Islam towards political parties and those who indulge in them?
Question:
“Some people are Muslims but they indulge in political parties. These parties are many and varied, such as the Progressive party, the Socialist party, the Independence party, the Liberal party, the Nationalist party, the Youth party, the Democratic party, and other parties which are all more or less similar. What is the attitude of Islam towards these parties, and towards Muslims who indulge in these parties – is their Islam sound?”
Another fine example of moderate islam:
TIMESONLINE: Some Muslim medical students are refusing to attend lectures or answer exam questions on alcohol-related or sexually transmitted diseases because they claim it offends their religious beliefs.
Some trainee doctors say learning to treat the diseases conflicts with their faith, which states that Muslims should not drink alcohol and rejects sexual promiscuity.
A small number of Muslim medical students have even refused to treat patients of the opposite sex. One male student was prepared to fail his final exams rather than carry out a basic examination of a female patient.
The religious objections by students have been confirmed by the British Medical Association (BMA) and General Medical Council (GMC), which both stressed that they did not approve of such actions.
It will intensify the debate sparked last week by the disclosure that Sainsbury’s is permitting Muslim checkout operators to refuse to handle customers’ alcohol purchases on religious grounds. It means other members of staff have to be called over to scan in wine and beer for them at the till.
———————–
The more of them you allow in, the quicker the false veil of ‘peace’ is removed and the more bold they become in their demands for shariah. And make no mistake they are bringing shariah through the wests antiquated idea of ‘freedom of religion’ – as if all religions are morally and ethically equivalent.
Now, we have two choices, we can continue to live at risk until the islamic world catches up with the western world or we can go to work and drag the homosexual man who works there into the street and stone him. Personally, I choose to continue to live at risk and work toward changing the islamic world through peaceful (and if attacked forceful) actions.
Thank you Neville, if you haven’t noticed we’ve been attacked for over a decade. You sing kumara to the Muslims since they’ve been so receptive to it. Did you see how the Koranimals reacted when a few benign cartoons were drawn of Muhammad?
You need to read this site:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Good Morning,
Comparing Christianity and Islam is like comparing apples and oranges. After a few thousand years they are rotten and do as much harm as good. God is dead. Nietzsche killed him and Camus put the nails in the coffin.
I’m just joking, God isn’t dead. He just doesn’t seem to exist. Some may believe he exists, but they are wrong to assume that their belief is knowledge of his existence.
Who are we to attribute our innate desires to do good for ourselves and others to a God? Our charity and compassion comes from our will to survive, not to our great sky pilot of eternal compassion.
So why rain on everyone’s Islam is terrible, Christianity is great parade? My friends, they are the same. Every religion is the same. They may be practiced differently but they all have the same tenets. Sikhism is to Buddhism is to Hinduism is to Zoroastrianism what Islam is to Christianity is to Judaism is to Gnosticism. We have the violents, the virgin births and saviours, the chosen ones who desperately seek solace, and the strange roots of all of them.
Living your life without travel, is like being religious without being open to change, no reading a book without ever turning the page.
I’ll either be ignored or attacked but either way today should be fun.
“Fundamentally Flawed … ”
…is any discussion on important measures such as immigration that doesn’t include data. You’re just wanking in front of a mirror, essentially, and changing no one’s mind.
It is one thing for people who take the time to inform themselves on such subjects – by reading any number of sites chronicling daily Muslim behaviour – to be inundated by the bilious venom and vitriol than spews forth daily from the mouths of followers of the Religion of Peace™.
It will be another thing to document such outrages and to compile them in a permanent sidebar to SDA – with one notable exception …. Change every derogatory reference these sandfleas make to “the West,” “Jews,” “infidels,” “crusade,” “America,” etc., etc., to read “the Middle East,” “Muslims,” “jihad,” “believers,” “Arabia,” etc., etc. in its place.
Sit back and watch the reaction.
Entitle the sidebar “The Daily Multiculturalism OOPS!”
Proper context would, of course, be of prime importance in such figurative transliterations, but I am convinced there is sufficient expertise out there that could accommodate such substitutions.
The Point —-> It’s not Islam that will take over the west. That just assumes that correlation equals causation. It’s fascist thugs who will take over the west, just like they took over Rome. Gibbon actually blamed the fall of Rome on the Christians. In his opinion they were the ideologues who started forcing conversions on other people, whereas the polytheists didn’t care so long as no one rocked the boat.
“Every religion is the same.”
Notice the moral equivilency so typical of today’s youth. See, this is another reason why the anti-Muslim jihad is stupid; the same club will be used to persecute Christians. And if your anti-Muslim crusade is really a closet anti-Christian crusade, then you are the enemy of western civilization.
Atheism was tried in the Soviet Union. It failed, and Christianity flourishes.
Atheism was tried in Cambodia. It failed, and Buddhism flourishes.
Atheism was tried in Mao’s China. It failed, and Christianity flourishes.
To the extent that atheism is practiced in North America it has succeeded in nothing less than it’s own self-abortion. Atheism aborts itself and therefore cannot be considered a reasonable or sustainable ideology.
“… They hate us because everything they’re taught is wrong, immoral or evil is done with glee in North America.” NoOne
Yes, they saw Spin Doctors and the media give an Oval Office Pedophile a pass.
Is there really such a thing as a moderate muslim? Or are they all just latent extremists? I believe that the argument that there is a moderate muslim is quite close to the NDP’s position of saying we support the troops but not the mission.Which we know is just empty meaningless blather. If you support Islam (the soldiers) then you must also support the eventual conquest of the world (the mission).
“Yes, they saw Spin Doctors and the media give an Oval Office Pedophile a pass.”
Getting a hummer from twenty one year old college graduate is pedophilia? Whose side are you on?
“kumara”? Should be kumbaya.
jmorrison “joe, i would like my God to come now and put an end to the bullshit before it gets so deep we can’t shovel it”
LOL Sometimes in my darker moments I feel the same way. Then I re-discover beauty. That intangeable essence that I can and I can know but can never understand. The beauty of a new mother giving suckle to her offspring. The beauty of the sick, lame and defenceless as they struggle to make their way in this world. The beauty od the young man so confident and cocksure he will take on the world if only to win the love of his girl. Then there is the extreme beauty of a broken and contrite heart reaching out to that ineffable essence that is the source of all that is Beauty.
Off to church the flock is in need of the Body and the Blood.
irwin daisy, thanks for reprising Dennis Prager’s article. It seemed familiar, and after checking the date, I knew I read it some time back (believe it was at Townhall.com). Prager makes no secret of the fact that he has, for many years, tried to find common ground between Christians, Judaists, and Muslims. He’s interviewed a great many representatives from all 3 of these major faiths; as much as anyone (more than most, probably) Prager has tried to bridge the gaps towards an understanding between these 3 religions.
But there’s a problem; Islamic extremists use religion to cloak their fascist political ideology, of that there is no question. Is there?
How can there be any question about it?
It’s not up to me, or ANY non-Muslim, to simply accept the “truth” that Islam is a peaceful religion without such truth actively demonstrated by MAJOR figureheads of the religion of Islam. This is where a guy like Dennis Prager is really valuable, in my opinion. He can give voice NOT to Muslim “rationalists” who try to “explain” what Islam is about, trying to “lead” non-believers in the path of “truth and light” as revealed in the Quran, blah, blah, blah…, but to Muslim adherents who are willing to PUBLICLY and LOUDLY condemn the psychotic, murderous behavior engaged in by the whackos of Islam. I like Glenn Beck’s approach, too, by way of his interviews of guests like Zudi Jasser and Irshad Manji (he had an hour-long show with Manji a few months ago).
Frankly, TRULY rational Muslims had better start to nurture those voices which speak out against practitioners of Islam who believe in murder, mayhem, the “caliphate”, etc… because, in the end, if the nut cases win out, there WON’T be any nuanced distinction made between “moderate” Muslims and “fundamentalist” Muslims (read, dirty nuke going off in New York, or Oklahoma City, or Kansas City, or Vancouver,…). Most Germans weren’t Nazis, but in 1943, 40,000 residents of Hamburg died in a single night anyway.
By the way, I’m NOT criticizing the way our parents, grand parents, great grand parents, conducted the Second World War… that’s just the way it is.
Good morning Jon.
but they are wrong to assume that their belief is knowledge of his existence.
This is why it’s called faith. However, I believe it takes a greater leap of faith to believe God doesn’t exist. The origins of life still cannot be explained by the Darwinians nor can they account for the varying species. If evolution to life from dirt is a natural process we should be able to find some forms of life on other planets. Surely some kind of organism must have evolved.
Who are we to attribute our innate desires to do good for ourselves and others to a God? Our charity and compassion comes from our will to survive, not to our great sky pilot of eternal compassion.
There have been many studies done on this in America. The overwhelming charitable contributors [money/time] are Conservatives/Republicans. They give vastly more than their democrat counterparts because they see it as a moral obligation and want to help their fellow citizen. Religious democrats, as few as there are, do contribute as well. The overwhelming majority of the left sees the govt as their nanny and expects the govt to do the charitable work, so they don’t. It’s a philosophical difference between the sides.
My friends, they are the same.
Jon, there is no comparison between the greatness that Judeo/Christian values have had on the world and the inhuman barbarity that islam has plagued the world with. Islamists in Beslan, Russia held 300 children and adults in a school hostage for several days and when the Russians attempted a rescue these Islamic subhumans started massacring the children. There is no moral equivalence between Muslims and Jews/Christians.
Living your life without travel, is like being religious without being open to change…..
Agreed.
Regarding Praeger’s article- it is full of historical and religious nonsense and should be taken with a very large grain of salt. A few examples:
…from its inception, Christianity acknowledged a separation of the religious and the political, rendering to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.
Probably the most ridiculous statement he makes. Separation of church and state in Christianity is a very recent phenomenom.
The Muslim states of the Middle East, for example, are creations of Western (secular) imperialism or pre-date Islam…
Really? What about Turkey? Or Saudi Arabia? While Islam calls for primacy of the Ummah, the reality is that in Islamic history the unified Caliphate lasted for only a few centuries before shattering into a multitude of kingdoms. Many were later destroyed by Ottoman and Christian conquests, but to argue that Muslims have never had separate countries of their own creation is patently ridiculous.
there is no comparison between the greatness that Judeo/Christian values have had on the world and the inhuman barbarity that islam has plagued the world with
Nonsense. Extreme acts of barbarity have been committed in the names of all religions, including Christianity. By pulling quotes from religious texts out of context, any act can be justified.
I didn’t know this disturbing fact:
“How and Why do Canada born and bred Muslims end up going feral?
To answer this question we need to know what happens in every Muslim home in Canada (and in fact all across the globe):
Before the Eid-ul-Zuha festival, every Muslim father brings home a baby goat (kid) and tells his child to play with that kid. As days pass, the child grows fond of the goat-kid for some days and when the day of Eid-ul-Zuha comes when the child is shocked to see that his pet goat is slaughtered in front of his entire gleeful and cheering family. The child feels guilty, he cries and asks for his friend (the goat-kid) to be spared. But when the goat is slaughtered in spite of this, and the child is told that this is part of Muslim tradition – the child is bewildered.
After one year round the same time, the same ritual is repeated. Now the child is one year older, but he still has the innocence to play with a pet and grow fond of the pet. When the day arrives, the goat is again slaughtered, and the child is reminded of this being a hoary tradition. The child still feels guilty, but his guilt is now numbed by the words that repeatedly fall on his ears, that this is a qurbani (a sacrifice) and that it is our holy duty to kill.
A year after that the child is again asked to play with a goat and on the day of the feast of Eid-ul-Zuha, he is asked to hold the dagger and help out in slaughtering the goat. The child gradually grows hard-hearted and now starts enjoying this ritual of killing the goat – A Muslim is made!
The point to be noted is that till the Muslim population does not reach a certain critical mass, the Muslims adapt to the country of adoption. Till then they pretend assimilate the host countries culture, but like to create their Ghettos, away from the mainstream of that country. And when their numbers reach a critical mass, they start what Mohammed started in Mecca, the Razzias or Gazhawats (raids) against the non-Muslims. The plot to storm our Parliament was just the tip of the iceberg of such Razzias. This plot is only the first critical warning shot of the shape of things to come.
There can also never ever be any discussion on the murderous commands of the Quran, since it is the word of god, or so Mohammed (yimach shmo ve-zichro – may his name and memory be obliterated) told his followers.
Assemble five times a day to swear your loyalty to Islam
To be doubly sure that his flock remains together in to its murderous ken (prison), he decreed that it was compulsory for all Muslims to come together and pray five times during the day. So there wasn’t any chance for his followers to leave Islam and emancipate themselves.
Excerpts from: historyofjihad.org/canada.html (it’s a bit repetitive, but informative)
Nonsense.
One merely needs to look at the theocratic societies in muslim countries where women are stoned to death, homosexuals are hanged, children have their throats cut for perceived shame brought upon a family, female genital mutilation, treating women as chattel, depriving women of an education, preaching hate to children for early on, etc. Islam is a plague on the world; covert or die infidel.
Funny how you anti religionists have to go back centuries to find Christian barbarity.
***co[n]vert or die infidel.
I think I need more coffee.
Apollyon,
The question of the creation or evolution of life on planet earth is a good one. How was it possible for an animate object to come from one that is inanimate? I can believe that God infused life into that organism, or created a man out of clay, or I can know that I have no answer and must continue to search for it.
As for moral equivalence, the major religions are only equivalent in the manner that they take individual responsibility for thought and hand it to the preachers who interpret the words of god.
I can believe that God infused life into that organism, or created a man out of clay, or I can know that I have no answer and must continue to search for it.
Jon, this is why I say science will bring us closer to God. Anthony Flew’s [one of the godfathers of atheism] revelation is a testament to this.
Funny how you anti religionists have to go back centuries to find Christian barbarity.
Who says I’m an “anti religionist”[sic]? I’d just like to see some accuracy in this discussion. As for having to go back centuries to see Christian barbarity, you’re not serious, right? Pop quiz – who killed more people in the 20th century, Muslims or Christians?