Melbourne Herald Sun;
A SUSPECTED Islamic militant shot dead a female provincial minister at a political meeting in central Pakistan today because she was not wearing Muslim clothing, officials said.
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Zill-e Huma, the Punjab province minister for social welfare, was shot in the head at a function in Gujranwala city, provincial law minister Raja Basharat said.
“She was shot dead by a fanatic when she was meeting with party workers,” he said.
Officials said Huma was known for promoting women’s rights.
“He killed her because she was not observing the Islamic code of dress. She was also campaigning for emancipation of women,” local police officer Nazir Ahmad said.
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Pakistani Times;
The 36-year old Zilla Huma Usman, the wife of Dr. Muhammad Usman Haider, was born on September 16, 1971.
She obtained the degree of LL.B. in 1997 and M.A. (Political Science) in 1998 from University of the Punjab, Lahore.
She was elected as Member Provincial Assembly of Punjab in General Elections 2002 against reserved women seat.
She worked as Parliamentary Secretary for Planning and Development from August 5, 2003 to November 30, 2006. She was working as Minister for Social Welfare since December 1, 2006.
3,2,1 Protest !!!
So where are the protesters, where are the howls of outrage, where are the all the Progressives ???
Maude Barlow ?
Sylvia Chow ?
Mohamed Elmasri ?
I blame Israel, western popular culture, and the war in Iraq. That’s who’s at fault for Southern Thailand, as well. Right, left?
Excerpt from a recent letter to The Mississauga News (this is the first line):
Ever wonder why a nun can be covered from head to toe and respected for devoting herself to God, but when a Muslim woman does that, she’s considered oppressed?
This is how ridiculous it’s getting here.
may God rest her soul. while we seek and destroy the f#@kers
Whens the last time a Nun got her brains splattered by a devout Catholic?
Azzwipe!
According to DPO Gujaranwala, Ghulam Sarwar had killed 12 call girls of Lahore. He was arrested for the murder of call girls and was released from the jail last year.
If this is true, her assailant was a known serial killer who did a one year stint in jail and was out walking the streets, I’m speechless.
Anywhere Islam exists is a sewer.
In all honesty, Islamic extremists are starting to win. I for one have given up any hope of Muslims getting their act together and showing the world that they are all not fanatics. Any voice of reason is silenced by violence.
I hope Mississauga Matt sticks to beer and coffee because there must be something in the water in his neck of the woods.
“According to DPO Gujaranwala, Ghulam Sarwar had killed 12 call girls of Lahore. He was arrested for the murder of call girls and was released from the jail last year.”
So it’s pretty much like Ontario then!
I’m with Kelly on this one.
Very troubling to hear in the country that not too long ago elected a woman president and then re-elected her. This will be an important test of the current president’s resolve. His reaction will be a strong indication of how strong and confident he feels in the face of growing Islamic extremism in his country.
I do find it a little disconcerting and somewhat appalling that some people first reaction in the face of this abhorent extremist violence and attack on freedom is to try to score some left-right partisan points.
Ted
[deleted. TONE IT DOWN OR LEAVE. If you want to defame every member of a major world religion, get your own blog. – ED]
“I do find it a little disconcerting and somewhat appalling that some people first reaction in the face of this abhorent extremist violence and attack on freedom is to try to score some left-right partisan points”…..????….hey, ted, how about YOU thinking ourside of that little partisan box of yours, it’s a gruesome crime, the responses expressed are just plain and simply appropriate responses. Period.
You’re a menace to all persons who aren’t condescending little plastic virtucratic twits.
That’s really tragic. My condolences to Zill-e Huma’s family.
NCF TO:I blame Israel, western popular culture, and the war in Iraq. That’s who’s at fault for Southern Thailand, as well. Right, left?
Sometimes we also like to blame Walmart.
Ted: I do find it a little disconcerting and somewhat appalling that some people first reaction in the face of this abhorent extremist violence and attack on freedom is to try to score some left-right partisan points.
Agreed. Sometimes I wonder whether all this growing partisan hostility isn’t our greatest collective threat.
You can tone it down too, Penny.
Penny: …it’s a gruesome crime, the responses expressed are just plain and simply appropriate responses. Period.
Fred writes, “So where are the protesters, where are the howls of outrage, where are the all the Progressives ??? Maude Barlow? Sylvia [Olivia?] Chow? Mohamed Elmasri?
NCF TO writes, “I blame Israel, western popular culture, and the war in Iraq. That’s who’s at fault for Southern Thailand, as well. Right, left?”
Ted doesn’t need me coming to his defence, but I have to ask, Penny: how exactly are Fred’s and NCF TO’s left-baiting comments “appropriate”, non-partisan responses to Ms. Huma’s tragic murder?
Spare me the tag-team sanctimony. The seriousness of the tragedy is obvious; the increasing occurrence of such incidents is the issue.
The point is a fair one: Muslims overwhelmingly blame their problems on external boogeymen, while the left accepts the dissimulation with glee because it supports the common anti-capitalist cause.
This is so sad. Islam needs leaders like Zilla Huma Usman, yet this fanatic’s cowardly action significantly decreases the further emergence of them. I maintain that the majority of Muslims are of a moderate bent and peace-loving, yet they live in fear of expressing their opinions as they likely don’t know who among them is likely to make them pay. To be a Muslim today is to be oppressed, and that too, saddens me.
…don’t ya just love inbreeding?
Dr. Dawg has not offered much in the way of suggestions as to how the war against Islamist terror should be won. I’m just wondering what he thinks of this piece from Daniel Pipes?
Re: the Islamists: They could even win. That’s because, however strong the Western hardware, its software contains some potentially fatal bugs. Three of them – pacifism, self-hatred, complacency – deserve attention.
Pacifism: Among the educated, the conviction has widely taken hold that “there is no military solution” to current problems, a mantra applied in every Middle East problem – Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, the Kurds, terrorism, and the Arab-Israeli conflict. But this pragmatic pacifism overlooks the fact that modern history abounds with military solutions. What were the defeats of the Axis, the United States in Vietnam, or the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, if not military solutions?
Self-hatred: Significant elements in several Western countries – especially the United States, Great Britain, and Israel – believe their own governments to be repositories of evil, and see terrorism as just punishment for past sins. This “we have met the enemy and he is us” attitude replaces an effective response with appeasement, including a readiness to give up traditions and achievements. Osama bin Laden celebrates by name such leftists as Robert Fisk and William Blum. Self-hating Westerners have an out-sized importance due to their prominent role as shapers of opinion in universities, the media, religious institutions, and the arts. They serve as the Islamists’ auxiliary mujahideen.
Complacency: The absence of an impressive Islamist military machine imbues many Westerners, especially on the left, with a feeling of disdain. Whereas conventional war – with its men in uniform, its ships, tanks, and planes, and its bloody battles for land and resources – is simple to comprehend, the asymmetric war with radical Islam is elusive. Box cutters and suicide belts make it difficult to perceive this enemy as a worthy opponent. With John Kerry, too many dismiss terrorism as a mere “nuisance.”
and John said that would be a problem where they live in fear of expressing their opinions. whereas we do not and therein lies the problem
Harry: Thanks for the quote from Daniel Pipes. It’s so true and tragic. We have a military the enemy cannot possibly defeat. They run whenever our forces are on the offensive. But we will loose the war at home, just as we did Viet Nam, because the Left will not pull together with their own countrymen.
Daniel calls it self hatred, but this is erroneous in that it blames us all. It’s the people in our midst who hate us all and all we stand for. They don’t seem to care that they are committing suicide.
How sad!
Salim Mansur, himself a Muslim, sees Islamism as a kind of decay borne plague that feeds off the corpse of a once sophisticated civilization. Mansur’s analogy to the present day situation are the dying days of Rome. When motivated, Roman legions easily defeated the Euro-barbarian rabble. But, for similar reasons cited by Daniel Pipes in Harry’s post above, we all know what happened to Rome.
One hopes that Churchillian resolve by the west will eventually undermine Islamist credibility and they will be replaced by leaders who want to build their nations rather than destroying those of others.
We ve established that a crazy fanatic killed an elected MP in an Islamic country. It is worth noting that he was A crazy fanatic. It is also worth noting that she was ELECTED.
It begs the question – what was the motive behind posting this tragic, yet isolated, incident on this board, given the general disdain towards Islam and muslims?
I m really not surprised by Penny’s statement:
“Anywhere Islam exists is a sewer.”
Penny, in your mind, is the motive in Iraq to spread democracy or to annihilate Islam? It appears that Democracy can in fact exist in an Islamic nation (Pakistan), and that the electorate in an Islamic country is not averse to electing a woman, even if a random fanatic with a gun is.
One must also remember that political assasinations happen everywhere. His stated motive need not be his real one.
Interesting about how the MSM in Canada has had nothing about this incident. It must be really rough working in the MSM having to deal with this material. If such a situation happened in Canada, then it would be automatic censure of the male (only if they were white) for committing this heinous act. Since this act happened in Pakistan, one has to take local sensibilities into account and, as oppression of women is the norm there (and the perpetrator isn’t white) then it is best to say nothing about this since to do so would likely upset visible minorities in Canada and this is a no-no.
Not being a member of the MSM or being concerned about political correctness, I think that a situation like this is the best argument for starting a program to arm all women in Pakistan. I happen to believe that all women should be armed and years ago started with my girlfriend. I observed that she was half my weight and thus at a physical disadvantage should she be attacked. Accordingly, I bought her a gun and taught her how to shoot and was impressed that in short order she was able to shoot more accurately than I could. From an islamist standpoint, this would probably be viewed as a serious impediment to disciplining ones woman, but I have no need for a submissive partner. A program to send guns to women in Pakistan (and other islamic states) would likely deal with the misogenyst branch of islam most efficiently.
good grief, all of Islam is guided by the koran. you will never change Islam. when one is told it is necessary to abuse women and kill infidels by their holy book what do you expect.
1) A nun chooses to submit to the heacovering and is free to leave. Mind you I know of more than a few catholic schools where the nuns werent thought of as pious.
2) The hijab, can be seen in a simlar light, if it is by choice. It is the lack of choice, the bullying by law or extreme social pressure that leads to the disdain. It isnt pious when it isnt a personal choice.
Yes this should spark protest, calls for the PM to condemn, weepy news documentaries. But it won’t. There is a twisted and weird symbiosis between the activist left in the West and radical islam. It apparently is seen as both an ally in the war against globalization and America, sucicide bombers being only the most committed, and a general feeling that we cannot upset the “culture”.
This woman is an example that there is a struggle for rights and freedom within “muslim lands”. And that the indvidual is making progress. It is provoking reactions, hence the term reactionary, from segmnents of society that have the most to lose, or perceive loss of prestige, power and position.
Her death needs to be marked. The reasons need to be publicized but most importantly her attacker needs to be punished, I would say according to the rule of law. Of course if he wises some of the more medieval punishments found in Sharia law that works for me to. The danger is he would be found innocent beause her “crime as a woman” was larger.
One day there will be a reckoning on the left in this country and they will realze they have sold all of their high principles down the river for nothing.
We need to support those who want to change their society for the better. I have no shame in saying those people happen to want societies that are, at their foundations, like ours, democratic, market oriented, secular, public societies. If that means I am supporting imposition of “Western Values” then I am guilty of that charge.
Hope, and her little sister, Fear, are orphans. Will they find a home? …-
Top Muslim cleric agrees to meet Pope Benedict XVI
news.monstersandcritics ^ | Feb 20, 2007 | Deutsche Presse-Agentur
Vatican City – Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, grand sheik at the Al-Azhar Mosque in Cairo, has agreed to meet Pope Benedict XVI in Rome, the Vatican said Tuesday.
The sheikh is described as a moderate and is regarded as the highest spiritual authority for nearly 1 billion Sunni Muslims worldwide. …-
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1788229/posts
“What was the motive behind posting this tragic, yet isolated, incident on this board,”
It was posted here because it’s not an “isolated incident”. If you were paying attention, you’d know that.
Try searching the word “Thailand” on this blog, and you’ll discover that Iraq isn’t the only place Islamists are systematically dragging people into the street and executing them.
“What was the motive behind posting this tragic, yet isolated, incident on this board,”
To add to Kate’s comment, EVERYWHERE in the Islamic world and in any Western country were a moderate Muslim speaks out against Islamofascism, he or she is literally putting his/her life on the line. Even the brave moderates who aren’t assassinated place themselves and their families in permanent danger.
As an example, do you remember Dr. Wafa Sultan, the Syrian-American lady who spoke out so eloquently against Islamofascism on Arab TV in a debate in Quatar? Living right here in the US…and from what she alluded to in a subsequent interview, she and her family have received very serious death threats and now need personal security. Bodyguards.
Maybe there are lots of Muslim moderates, living in the West or in Muslim countries, who are opposed to Islamofascism. That they are intimidated into silence and inaction is the cogent fact. They may as well not exist for all the practical consequences.
It’s also a historical fact that there were lots of anti-Nazis and people opposed to WW2 in Nazi Germany. They didn’t make a bit of difference and the Nazis still were able to start the war. That’s the historical lesson that the West needs to draw and that the West is willfully ignoring.
The murderer should get the ultimate punishment which over there is OFF WITH HIS HEAD
Dave: Maybe there are lots of Muslim moderates, living in the West or in Muslim countries, who are opposed to Islamofascism. That they are intimidated into silence and inaction is the cogent fact. They may as well not exist for all the practical consequences.”
I agree (though I’d take out the “maybe”). It’s important to distinguish the moderate Muslims, of which there are “lots”, from Islamists/Islamofascist extremists. The latter are the real enemy, the former are potential allies. I say “potential,” because surely it doesn’t help when, for instance, jmorrison (5:31a) writes, “good grief, all of Islam is guided by the koran. you will never change Islam. when one is told it is necessary to abuse women and kill infidels by their holy book what do you expect.”
Imagine for a moment that you’re a moderate Muslim, opposed to terrorism but frustrated that you get “special treatment” at airports, in favour of Canadian democracy, citizenship and lifestyle but also a devout follower of (non-violent, non-oppressive, non-imperialist) Islam. Imagine these things, and then imagine that by chance you came across this blog, and you were to read comments like the one above, or Penny’s (@ 4:12a: “Anywhere Islam exists is a sewer”). Or earlier posts, like the “Baby Boomer” thread. What would you think or feel? I propose sadness, and then, possibly, anger.
Moderate Muslim communities, particularly its leaders, must rise up and denounce terrorism with greater voice. But look around here, Dave, and ask whether the vitriol and stereotyping and generalizations too often hurled about might do as much to suppress that moderate voice as extremist intimidation.
You’re right that there were many Germans opposed to Nazism in the lead-up to WWII. It would’ve done no good then to lump them in with the Nazis, or indiscriminately label all Germans as the enemy. Why make that mistake now?
A: “Moderate Muslim communities, particularly its leaders, must rise up and denounce terrorism…”
When pigs fly, A. It’s not like there hasn’t been ample opportunity for Canada’s own muslim communities. Frequent commentors like Penny, Irwin Daisy, E.T., etc. have given many impassioned but reasonable arguments why there will never be a viably popular moderate voice from Islam. Without any significant steps towards reformation Islam will continue to protect and nurture extremism. The very nature of that extremism is hateful and violent towards all outsiders. Internal dissent is commonly and systematically silenced within muslim communities everywhere.
My hope is with yours, that a growing voice of reason involving muslims is possible leading to peaceful integration and co-existence with others. However, without a movement involving the moderation of Islam itself nothing positive can happen. That’s something that autocratic Islamic leadership will stop at all costs. There’s no such thing as a protestant muslim.
“I agree (though I’d take out the “maybe”). It’s important to distinguish the moderate Muslims, of which there are “lots”, from Islamists/Islamofascist extremists. The latter are the real enemy, the former are potential allies. I say “potential,” because surely it doesn’t help when, for instance, jmorrison (5:31a) writes, “good grief, all of Islam is guided by the koran. you will never change Islam. when one is told it is necessary to abuse women and kill infidels by their holy book what do you expect.””
How do you distinguish between an extremist and a moderate, I’m curious about that one.
So you’re saying that if Canadians insult islam as a religion, they’re possibly turning muslims into extremists? Or are they just not going to speak up?
BTW, When are the moderates going to get some gonads and speak up. How much more murder and mayham before we see muslims en masse protesting in the streets. Another 911, beheading our PM, maybe an AirCanada jet flown into downtown Toronto.
I’m not getting your post A, I mean it sounds nice and fuzzy, but what are our choices, stay silent and eventually moderates will protest? I think that you’ll be waiting awhile.
A, try going to leftist blogs and see what they write about Christians. I hope that you are defending Christians at those blogs just as you are defending muslims at this one…then I would perhaps take your comment more seriously.
Please note that we don’t have any “sudden jihad syndromes” popping up in the Methodist or Presbyterian camps, eh? Yet they are being vilified on blogs, too.
By the way, why focus on just blogs for such negative news about muslims and the potential impact on their psyche? Why not look at the news media and the almost daily news stories about more muslim car bombs, muslim beheadings, muslim aggression, etc. I hope that you’re also writing to them and telling them to tone it down, too…right?
“It was posted here because it’s not an “isolated incident”. If you were paying attention, you’d know that.”
How is it not an isolated incident. There clearly isnt a countrywide effort to wipe out women in power. One fanatic takes out one MP and you make it sound as if Islamists are “systematically dragging people into the street and executing them.” One fanatic kills one MP and this suddenly qualifies as “systematic”?
I beg to differ. I maintain that it is an isolated incident insofar as he was working alone, is not apparently linked to the many terrorist groups that operate in Pakistan, and probably has nothing to do with the Thai. Theres nothing systematic about killing one MP.
Unless of course, your goal is to show just how backward the people are, conveniently ignoring the fact that she was democratically elected.
“I beg to differ. I maintain that it is an isolated incident insofar as he was working alone, is not apparently linked to the many terrorist groups that operate in Pakistan, and probably has nothing to do with the Thai. Theres nothing systematic about killing one MP.”
Of course you missed the title, shot for not wearing the veil. I do believe that there are more than a few muslim women who have been executed because of religious beliefs, but you choose to define her as a politician. What’s next, she had blue eyes so no, extremists have not targetted women with blue eyes.
multirec: How do you distinguish between an extremist and a moderate, I’m curious about that one.
I dunno — try to get to know them?
So you’re saying that if Canadians insult islam as a religion, they’re possibly turning muslims into extremists? Or are they just not going to speak up?
Mostly the latter, but you also run a risk of the former. To take a not-quite-right analogy, most teenagers, when constantly picked on and discriminated against by persons of authority (authoritarian parents, unsympathetic teachers, mall security guards, etc.) just become sullen and alienated and rebellious, but a very small few — already a bit twisted to begin with — also join cults and/or carry out a school massacre. Left alone or treated with some respect, even the slightly screwed up ones manage to do just fine in the end. But toss in the constant harassment, who knows what sort of monster one might create.
BTW, When are the moderates going to get some gonads and speak up.
Again, are you (well, not you personally) really creating the space for them to speak up?
…what are our choices, stay silent and eventually moderates will protest?
No. But when you speak out against Islamic extremism, just be careful of who you tar with the same brush. You may be forfeiting potential allies without even knowing it.
Pacifism, weakness in the face of terrorism, historical revisionism, moral equivalency. These are all guiding lanterns of the left. So taking Ted’s comment to task –
“I do find it a little disconcerting and somewhat appalling that some people first reaction in the face of this abhorent extremist violence and attack on freedom is to try to score some left-right partisan points.”
This is not a game, it’s a well founded charge against the left – including complacency/pacifism in the face of terrorism (as a tactic of the greater goal of Islamic imperialism and domination). Ignorance and/or revisionism of Islam, the Quran and Mohammad’s life example. And often, outright support of Islamic fascism and intolerance.
Jeremiah notes,
“How is it not an isolated incident. There clearly isnt a countrywide effort to wipe out women in power. One fanatic takes out one MP and you make it sound as if Islamists are “systematically dragging people into the street and executing them.” One fanatic kills one MP and this suddenly qualifies as “systematic”?”
The one thing these so-called fanatics have in common is a religion, a book and a prophet. Because of this fact, these are not “isolated incidents,” but rather, are connected. The Bosnian Muslim who recently went on a rampage in a Salt Lake City Mall, killing 5 people – is exactly the same religious creature who killed the Pakistani government minister – is exactly the same religious creature that killed Theo Van Gough. Etc. ad nauseum
‘A’ chips in,
“It’s important to distinguish the moderate Muslims, of which there are “lots”, from Islamists/Islamofascist extremists.”
Ok, lets do just that.
I mentioned this a few days ago, when the poll came out. Finally somebody else pulled out the statistic the CBC found to be ‘negligible’ and printed it in a newspaper.
From the Calgary Sun:
“Fully 12% of Muslim Canadians polled by Environics said the alleged terrorist plot — that included kidnapping and beheading the prime minister and blowing up Parliament and the CBC — was justified.
Predictably, the CBC managed to find a talking head — in this case York University sociology professor Haideh Moghissi — who dismissed this disturbing revelation.
“It’s really negligible that 12 percent feel that the attacks would be justified,” said Moghissi. “I don’t think it even warrants attention.”
Clearly, other news agencies and those who put the poll results on the CBC website agree with Moghissi.
But just how “negligible” is 12% of 700,000 people.
Well, if Moghissi knew arithmetic like she knows denial, she’d know if this poll is accurate, 84,000 Canadian Muslims think it’s justifiable to behead our democratically elected prime minister and blow up the very symbol and centre of our democracy!
The Environics poll interviewed 500 Canadian Muslims and 2,045 members of the general population between Nov. 30 and Jan. 5 and is said to be accurate within 4.4 percentage points with regard to the Muslim respondents and 2.2 points with the larger sample group 19 times out of 20.
So, let’s err on the side of caution here. Let’s subtract the margin of error — 4.4% — from 12%. That comes to 7.6%, so let’s say, just to be really non-alarmist, we round that down to 7%. That still means 49,000 Canadian Muslims believe conducting a terrorist attack on their own country — Canada — is justified.
Is it just me, or does this not strike anyone else as the opposite of “negligible?”
Isn’t this significant news?”
————————————
Now ‘A’ can you please point out the moderates?
Are they the ones who said it wasn’t justified to chop off the PM’s head, blow up buildings and machine gun down as many people as possible in downtown Toronto?
Or are they the ones that took to the street to protest the vile and savage behaviour of these 19 would be assassins, even going as far as to issue a fatwa against them?
And what of the 50,000 ‘Canadian’ Muslims in agreement with the terrorists?
As I said Ted – Pacifism, weakness in the face of terrorism, historical revisionism, moral equivalency. The left has well-earned the title of ‘Useful Idiots.’
Irwin:
“Pacifism, weakness in the face of terrorism, historical revisionism, moral equivalency.”
What are you talking about? I call her murder abhorent extremist violence and attack on freedom. And that’s just here. I’ve always supported, and strongly supported, efforts by those like hers and our efforts in Afghanistan.
I also criticize people who try to score political partisan points off of the death of a hero.
Like you are.
A,
Go back just a little in SDA’s archives to Jan. 16th and check out “Undercover Mosques”. From your commentary it looks like your opinions are light on content. Please provide proof of the hidden moderate soft underbelly of Islam.
Report back on which muslims in the videos are the moderates. There’s “lots” of muslims listening intently to their leadership so it should be easy for you to point out a few individuals objecting to the hate messages.
Ted,
I am not trying to score political partisan points. I don’t see this as a game.
I am stating a widely held observation based on the behaviour of many on the left.
Martin B: Frequent commentors like Penny, Irwin Daisy, E.T., etc. have given many impassioned but reasonable arguments why there will never be a viably popular moderate voice from Islam.
Penny wrote, above, that “Anywhere Islam exists is a sewer.”
Irwin Daisy has written in other threads that (and I paraphrase) “Islam is a supremacist political ideology dressed up as religion” and that “Islam has never contributed anything useful to the world.”
Impassioned, sure, but reasonable? Can you think of a single public arena in which uttering such statements could be seen as reasonable dialogue? Their statements are as extreme in their own way as the hate uttered by the radical imams in “Undercover Mosques” (whom I don’t deny exist).
Please provide proof of the hidden moderate soft underbelly of Islam.
I don’t know where you live, Martin, but if it’s anywhere near a mosque, I encourage you to visit one day. Be respectful, ask questions, don’t prejudge. I’d be willing to bet that you’ll find all the proof you need.
If you’re not quite there, Islam.ca also has some useful information, including an “Ask the Scholar” page. I don’t agree with everything they say, but they’re a stark contrast to the “Undercover Mosque”-style radicals that get disproportionate coverage around here.
Bottom line, Martin, is that if you’re looking for extremism, you’ll find it. If you’re looking for moderation, you’ll find it too. Depends on what your true motives are — to learn about moderate Muslim culture, or to find evidence to confirm pre-existing beliefs.
“I don’t agree with everything they say, but they’re a stark contrast to the “Undercover Mosque”-style radicals that get disproportionate coverage around here.”
Maybe they get disproportionate numbers here because of the vile garbage they spew. Personally, I don’t want to go into a mosque and learn about islam. Why should I? Because I need to learn that all muslims aren’t extremists? Don’t you think that the onus should be the other way around?
…i’m against stupid crap for brains who run off justifying killing someone for religion.
Oh wait a sec, I think I’m guilty as I just got back from the recent Crusades while on holidays.
*blink*
Ummm wait…
(Psst, quick – what century am I in again?)
I think my dang aTiminizer(c) time machine is out of synch…
A,
You’re merely pointing out strong language contained in a couple of comments. Nothing you’ve said refutes the basis of the comments. Cherry picking and selective ignorance doesn’t replace fact and experience. It just looks weak.
Tell me about the trips to the mosques you’ve taken. I’ve been to several. I’ve gotten to know more than a few individuals that either were practicing muslims at the time or returned to the practice. I can only say that the people I thought were moderate seemed to become more extreme over time (either from spending more time in their faith or from frank exchanges of their views as they gradually opened up).
What do you mean by moderate, A? Do you mean people that don’t actively profess hatred of others? How do you know such individuals aren’t sympathetic to those that do? If they are sympathetic but never considered strapping a bomb on would you still classify them as moderate? What if they didn’t put the knife to Theo Van Gogh but clapped at the news headline? Is there something a person has to do to qualify as a bonifide moderate? You’ve got a multi-cultural gay parade in mind for inviting moderates to?
I wish you luck in your hunt for the bonifide stable moderate practicing muslim. I’ve only seen varying degrees of intolerant extremism.
Daisy
“The one thing these so-called fanatics have in common is a religion, a book and a prophet. Because of this fact, these are not “isolated incidents,” but rather, are connected. The Bosnian Muslim who recently went on a rampage in a Salt Lake City Mall, killing 5 people – is exactly the same religious creature who killed the Pakistani government minister – is exactly the same religious creature that killed Theo Van Gough. Etc. ad nauseum”
What kind of perverted stream of thinking is that?
Didnt a Christian lady kill her own kids some time in the past decade or so (because God told her to)? And didnt a Christian kill an abortionist? And didnt the Christian Lebanese “Guardians of the Cedars” adopt the rather interesting slogan “It is the duty of every Lebanese to kill at least one Palestinian”? I suppose theres a system there that finds its roots in the Bible. Systematic indeed. But we both know they re unconnected.
I wont deny that these actions take place more in Islamic nations – but that has less to do with Islam and more to do with the lack of definitive legal structures. The Salem Witch hunt did in fact happen in the US before they managed to put together a legal system strong enough to stop wonton religious persecution. The same applies to Christian Europe. Islam exists in countries that lack strong institutions, but this is not neccessarily a result of Islam. Christian Liberia and Sierra Leone are no better. Developing institutions takes time.
Pakistan has institutions in place, but a very confused government that is still trying to reverse the policies of Reagans favorite General, the fanatical Zia, who Reagan bent over backwards for in his quest ot defeat the Soviets. Reagan’s decision in those times gave us Afghanistan, where Al Qaeda bred, and Pakistan’s nuclear program – which has provided a great deal of support to North Korea and Iran. Reagan chose the lesser evil, some of you might argue, and to which I am inclined to agree, albeit conditionally, for Islamic beliefs have not changed in the time between Reagan and now, but the price is only becoming clear now. But I digress.
You are linking two unconnected and isolated incidents on the basis of an apparent shared religion and ostensibly similar, yet thoroughly vague religious bases.
Lets just call it oversimplification and gross generalization.
I dont know if you know anything about Pakistan, but in most of these so called developing countries, murderers who ve been convicted of killing prostitutes do not get out of prison unless they have connections. And sometimes those connections have political agendas. In fact, they almost always do. He claims to have killed her in the name of Islam, but given the way Pakistani politics work, I wouldnt rule out a random shooting where the only random thing is the person holding the gun. Everything else was probably preselected earlier.
Daisy
Also worth noting that both Islamic Pakistan and Islamic Bangladesh have elected women into the highest offices of their country.
In Pakistans case, Benazir Bhutto.
In Bangladesh’s case, Khaleda Zia and Sheikh Hasina – one is the leader of the country right now, the other the leader of the opposition.
Given that all these women were elected democratically, it suggests that the majority of the people in these countries do not hold the views of our crazy murderer. In fact it only goes to show that this a view held by a fringe.
But I suppose thats an inconvenient fact in light of the systematic actions in Salt Lake City and Pakistan.
One guy with a gun – indicative of an entire religion. Wonderful stuff.
Jeremiah,
Just curious…would you feel any anxiety if your mother/sister/wife ran for political office in Pakistan pushing a human rights agenda?
In the immortal words of the English cricketer Ian Bothom ( I think it was him ), “I wouldnt even send my mother in law there”.
Pakistan is a volatile mess right now. After nearly two decades of going in an Islamist direction, it has been forced to pull a u-turn. The u-turn has taken place at the top. Think of it as a train. The front has turned, but the momentum of the carriages behind threaten to derail the whole thing. Thats the short version. The long version is a lot trickier.
Nonetheless, I hope Musharraf’s enlightened moderation succeeds. There really is no alternative. I m not a Pakistan sympathiser. But I know enough about it to know that its issues with Islam are recent and complex. What else can you expect from a nation that was created by a pork eating secularist who often stated that he wanted a secular, not Islamic nation. Its first two years were under the secular whiskey drinking military dictatorships of Ayub and Yahya Khan. Yahya is famous for starting his day off with a glass of cognac and being smashed beyond recognition by tea time. Decidedly unIslamic.
ZA Bhutto – Benazirs father, got entangled with Islamissts due to political reasons. He was replaced by Reagan’s favorite boy Zia, who turned Pakistan into an Islamic nation in 1977 – 30 years after its inception as a homeland for muslims.
Then came Afghanistan where key ministries tied up with what would later be known as terrorist groups. These links were deep – and across almost every level from junior to senior. A certain type of thinking was encouraged.
And then September 11th came, and Pakistan turned on its head – hence the train analogy.
Yes Pakistan’s Islamic problems are very very different from Thailands and Salt Lake Citys. And no, I wouldnt send anyone I knew there. It is a problem that has to have an internal resolution attempted. If that fails, then a military intervention might be the only way out.
“What kind of perverted stream of thinking is that?
Didnt a Christian lady kill her own kids some time in the past decade or so (because God told her to)? And didnt a Christian kill an abortionist? And didnt the Christian Lebanese “Guardians of the Cedars” adopt the rather interesting slogan “It is the duty of every Lebanese to kill at least one Palestinian”? I suppose theres a system there that finds its roots in the Bible. Systematic indeed. But we both know they re unconnected.”
I suppose to the ignorant like yourself, knowledge is perverted.
However, your argument is defeated thus: None of your ‘Christian’ examples are foundational to Christianity. The NT does not command, nor approve of such behaviour. Neither did Christ – in word, or action. In fact, the absolute opposite is true.
Islam, the Quran and Mohammad’s life example, on the other hand, commands and rewards barbaric, murderous behavior from Muslims. Islam and the Quran are “a secretion of the Arab brain,” or, “the word of man”, as Ayaan Hirsi Ali has put it.
I won’t bother going into examples or verses. Look them up yourself. Furthermore, in each one of the actions I cited, the perpetrators did what they did in Allah’s name, under the tutelage of the Quran. Unlike the ‘Christian’ examples you cited.
Moral equivalency makes you and your ilk obtuse and not worth debating with.
“But I know enough about it to know that its (Pakistan) issues with Islam are recent and complex.”
As recent, as its ’71-’73 pogram against the Hindus in East Pak/Bangladesh? In which they pretty much went on a Hindu extermination campaign, butchering oh, 1.5 million?