Does anybody care to take a guess as to what the international outcry will be over reports that 2 American troopers were tortured and killed by Islamo-fanatics in Iraq? How many days of condemnation will the MSM dedicate to pillorying Islamist fanatics? How many of the world’s leftist elite will step forward and condemn the crime without the usual excuses thrown in (ie: If the USA wasn’t in Iraq, this wouldn’t happen)? How many lefty blogs will condemn the crime without drafting moral equivalency arguments that include Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib or Haditha? And, how many politicians from the “progressive” camp will condemn the deed without piggy-backing into a “withdrawal timetable”?
Celestial Junk:
Brace yourselves boys and girls, it’s going to be ugly. Amnesty will of course decry the fact that Islamist terrorists, after this sadistic act, are now even more depraved than the Abu Ghraib bum-pile perverts. Leftist blogs the world over will warn Muslim fanatics that they had better start wearing uniforms if they want to be accorded Geneva convention rights.
Update: From LGF the KOS response.
I watched Kos on CNN recently, and just looking at him and listening to him is sickening. Reading these posts I can’t believe there are so many stupid, ignorant leftists and trolls in this country, that really hate canada and the US and want to see the enemy win, just so they can say, I told you so. Too bad they can’t see that if they do win, they will be the first to be killed or jailed. Time to bring out my husbands favorite expression to end an argument with-They must have gone to university for 20 years because they couldn’t get that stupid in 19.
At a court martial, Staff Sergeant Johnny Horne was found guilty of the unpremeditated murder of a severely wounded Iraqi civilian in Baghdad’s Sadr City district in August. He was due to be sentenced on Saturday although a pre-trial plea bargain limits his penalty to 10 years in jail.
The photographs, seized by the US Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS), show many victims shot at close range in the head and chest, execution-style, according to sources who have seen them. One image shows a mother and young child bent over on the floor as if in prayer. Both have been shot dead.
Military prosecutors plan to file murder, kidnapping and conspiracy charges against seven Marines and a Navy corpsman in the shooting death of an Iraqi man in April, a defense lawyer said Thursday.
The eight men are being held in the brig at Camp Pendleton Marine Corps base north of San Diego, said Jeremiah Sullivan III, who represents one of the men.
Hows this for a start?
Are you talking of convictions, or charges, or investigations?
I’m not quibbling, because I’m certian that when the entire coalition is taken into consideration that murders have been committed; frankly, I’m amazed at the restraint shown by coalition forces. In past conflicts, the murder rate would’ve been in the hundreds of cases. I am so impressed by the discipline and self-control as exercised by today’s forces. They are truly amazing.
debris trail
America, the most powerful best equiped military in history attacks the poorest most backward country in the world. They win, no surprise there. But then they don’t leave, they occupy the country. Five years later we are looking at the greatest fighting since Afghanistan was ‘defeated’ and the Taliban were put out of existence as Bush has said.
Then they go to Iraq, because its just a short drive away, and defeat that country’s military, or what was left of it from the last beating they took. Yes, you remember Iraq got its ass whooped in ’90 because they did the unforgiveable–they attacked Kuwait pre-emptively. Now 39 months later America hasn’t left Iraq they occupy it. The war ended, Bush said so, but the fighting rages on.
So what is wrong with this picture?
How many years does it take for the greatest military machine known to man to defeat the two backward ill-equipped, untrained, rag-tag insurgency? Never mind years from now, my point has been made. I didn’t decide it. I didn’t plan it. I didn’t execute the plan. I didn’t undermine the plan. I didn’t do anything, I didn’t have to. The chickenhawk know-it-alls in Washington did it all by themselves. I take no credit.
However, light sentences for U.S. troops convicted of killing civilians have left some human rights groups seething. At least 16 American troops have been sentenced in such cases, according to a count by The Associated Press. Six received prison sentences of three or more years in prison. Four cases are pending.
During the Vietnam war, 95 American soldiers and 27 Marines were convicted of killing noncombatants, according to Gary D. Solis, a visiting professor of law at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point.
Last summer, Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari complained to U.S. commanders about the “phenomenon of killing Iraqis for reasons of suspicion.”
During the Vietnam war, 95 American soldiers and 27 Marines were convicted of killing noncombatants, according to Gary D. Solis, a visiting professor of law at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point.
I’m sorry it wasn’t 8 it was 16
Can you reference that. I’d like to know the circumstances of each, and what the charges were. There is a difference between a murder charge and other charges that breeches in rules of engagement. Still, at 16, it’s an incredibly low number given the type of conflict especially.
Like I said, the troops are amazing.
I just typed in convictions. It takes to long for the post to come up if I put the address in.
But here’s something all our troops should watch out for.
A picture in the Feb. 19–25 edition of the PWW shows a homeless veteran examining a rack of used clothes. The caption notes that nationwide there are some 275,000 homeless vets. This is nearly equal to 15 standard army divisions of 18,000 soldiers each at full combat strength. As Joel Wendland reports in the same issue, the Bush-Rumsfeld orchestrated Pentagon and its congressional buddies maintain that benefits for veterans must be slashed because such benefits “hurt” national security. They want to cut $15 billion from vets benefits over a 10-year period, starting with over $900 million in 2005.
I had heard some about this, poor vets, but cutting benifits for people that put their life on the line, Are the rightwings sure they want this team running things?
In December 1944, the German Army broke US lines in the Ardennes Forest in Belgium. In the first two days they rounded up tens of thousands of American prisoners (the largest US military surrender after Corrigidor/Bataan). However, on Dec 17th (the 2nd day of the offensive) SS troopers shot around 75 prisoners near the town of Malmedy, an event that was uncovered by US forces within hours (there were also a few dozen survivors who escaped). Within a day, the entire American front knew about the massacre, in one form or another and, despite continued German attacks, the number of US prisoners taken fell to a trickle. In many cases, American troops held onto positions they would normally have evacuated, because of the fear of capture. The German offensive ground to a halt over the next two days.
All of which is appropos of what? Iraqi insurgents have taken their last US prisoners. From here on in, American soldiers who find themselves near capture by insurgents are going to take a lot of Iraqis with them.
neutralsam :
Its sad but a regrettable consequence of War. There are psycho’s in every profession.
As someone posted there restraint is incredible. I admire there oaths to duty with a ton of civility leavened by there personnel actions & conduct. Both Canadian & American troops.
If you had any concept of the history of war, you would know this.
The fact men where convicted of murder & rape only proves the system works. That its meant to punish those who would act like conquers. Not liberators.
As you yourself stated some are being brought up on charges. I would be thankful of an army this moral & courageous, to convict its own men of crimes against a people they where at war with. A class act all the way.
God bless all the coalition forces. In the work they do.
Sam: We are miles off topic from the original post, but: How many Americans have served in Iraq over how many years?
Now, consider that Saskatoon Sk, where I live, has a population of about 200,000 and in three years there will be about 15 – 20 murders. Now consider the conditions that the forces serve under in Iraq and the many thousands who have served there.
I know it’s not something you can draw direct correlations to, but it makes the point that murder convictions of USA service people in Iraq are extremely low, all things considered.
Again, after having read literally hundreds of books on military history and understanding full well that “murder” and overall criminality are high during conflicts, the USA armed forces are remarkable for the discipline they have shown. In fact, its likely a first.
About a million so far.
Excellent post debris. You raise valid points that any leftist, such as myself, is obliged to respond to.
Kindly yours,
steve d
Iraq is not the disaster you claim. Fourteen of the 18 provinces are peaceful. The economy is growing. While innocent people are being killed by terrorists, those terrorists no longer run the country. There will be 325,000 in the ISF by the end of this year. The ISF are now in the lead in most battles with the coaliion providing logistical and back up support. It’s obvious which way this is going and your side is losing.
neutralsam
Your unlinked posts are pure propaganda made of whole cloth.
One million have served in Iraq? It’s more like 300,000. Many have returned for a second and third tour- which belies the claim that the mission is hopeless.
Bush wants to cut benefits for veterans? Why is it a state secret? The veterans musn’t have heard of this plan. Bush is greeted enthusiastically every time he appears before a military audience.
Sixteen convictions and 275,000 homeless vets! Really! These middle class young men -and that’s what most of them are- go to Iraq to fight for their country and then when come home and can’t get jobs? (This must be why they volunteer for a second tour). If any of this were true it would be on the front page of the NYT every day and on CNN 24/7.
Terry Gain
If 14 of 18 are peaceful then why is everyone who is anyone in Iraq still holed up inside the Green Zone?
The same is true in Afghanistan. The government governs Kabul, the rest of the country, not so much.
Until and unless people, such as government ministers, visiting politicians, presidents, news reporters can travel about the country without fear of death then I am going to have to say your words ring hollow.
If the so called government is confined to a very limited area then their governing cannot be effective. It will deteriorate and the insurgents will, in reality, govern.
The situation in Iraq isn’t comparable to WWII, because the opposition are not a military force. They dress as civilians; how is a member of the Coalition military to know whether or not that person waving their hand is a valid civilian or, a member of the insurgency with a grenade in the other hand?
Therefore, accusing the US of murdering civilians is out of context – for the enemy has dropped the ‘sanctity of the uniform’.
And as Debris Trail has said – only 8, only 16? In that type of conflict? That’s phenomenal. I think you should read a bit of what goes on in wartime.
By the way, I haven’t heard neutralsam, who most certainly is not neutral, or steve d or any of the others who reject the war, comment on the real murders by the insurgents. By this, I mean the intentional murder of someone who has moved outside of the conflict situation, by being defined as a ‘captured military’ or ‘actual civilian’. neutralsam, it’s odd that you refer to the fact that the US military is actually prosecuting these US soldiers accused of murder but you ignore that no-one is prosecuting the insurgents for their real murders. Why don’t you comment on this fact?
The murders of those two young soldiers – now, that’s murder. They were soldiers; they weren’t civilians masquerading as soldiers. The murders of members of the new Iraqi gov’t, of witnesses and lawyers in Saddam’s trial, the murders of hostages and so on. That’s murder. Why don’t you comment on this?
steve d – the problem with your many assertions, is that your assertions are just opinions. They are ungrounded, unexamined and given as dogmatic conclusions akin to truths. They aren’t; they are simply your opinions.
For example – your assertion that the US didn’t know what it was doing. Provide proof, please. Not just your dogmatic opinion.
Equally, provide proof that Iraq is a disaster. Your ignorance of social infrastructures is as great as what you claim is the US ignorance. Do you seriously understand the difference between a tribal and democratic infrastructure? Do you think that one can flip between the two like a light switch? Do you know the subsystems of each mode of political and social organization? No, I am very sure that you don’t. To go into a country operating in a tribal mode and move into a democratic mode requires an overhaul of ALL subsystems. That takes years.
No, wars are not always fought for economic reasons. Some are – and an economic reason can be as valid as any other. You say that you don’t pretend to know what is good for others. Then, why are you asserting that the US and coalition should leave Iraq now?
Debris Trail,
I went to bed before your 11:17 PM post last night because I saw no point in riding the discussion trajectory from rational to emotional to its inevitable visceral impact. Sorry I only read it this morning, and thanks for admitting the possibility that reality is more than black or white.
A “balance of evidence” is a lot better than the usual manichean “forces of light vs. forces of darkness” view (“liberal” or “conservative” to be inserted at will.) The problem is to take the paucity of facts into account, and not to let ideological faith fill in what is not known.
If we held with Confucius that “A wise man not only knows what he knows, but also what he does not know,” we would not be as susceptable to propaganda. We would not follow down the garden path as easily, nor would we make it easy to use expected public opinion as support for a line of action. We would be democrats insisting on informed consent. Unthinkable!
Steve duh,
The greenzone is one area in Baghdad. The government/diplomatic area. Once again you illustrate your ignorance.
Iraq is 437,072 SQ KM. How much of the green zone is that?
enough
Putting the truth to notneutral(w)sam’s lies about funding cuts for vets
http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/003340.html
Putting the truth to notneutral(w)sam’s lies about funding cuts for vets
http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/003340.html
Steve D.
The reporters are all in the green zone because they are on the death watch. What point would there be in covering “war” from a place devoid of it?
If the other places are safe and normal (as much of Iraq is,) they aren’t likely to be able to film any bloody scenes or staged scenes of fake widows weeping now are they? The reason for the green zone is that it is the better protected area of the dangerous parts of Iraq. This is where the action is. This is where the reporters go to get their “quagmire” shoots. There is no news in Kurds going peacefully about their daily lives.
I bet the Iraqis in the safe areas are glad there are no reporters covering their area. The savages light off their bombs in view of the cameras for propaganda reasons. No cameras, no bombs. Put cameras in the Kurdish north and I’m sure it would be dangerous in short order. The media are co-conspirators in the attempt by terrorists and leftists to defeat the US. If I was a reporter in Iraq, I’d fear the average Joe on the street more than the terrorists. If I was the average Joe on the street, I’d be tar-and-feathering every journalist I saw and chasing them out of town with pitchforks.
Thanks, Warwick, for the outline detailing the intimate working network between the MSM and the insurgents. The insurgents, both Al Qaeda and those coming into Iraq from Iran, Syria, Jordan, Pakistan, SA, etc, are very well aware of the unique operational nature of this war.
It can’t be won by the terrorists by military tactics. They don’t have the military might. So, they instead move into terror, as the name implies. They terrorize civilians, people in mosques, people in markets, people everywhere.
Then, their militant actions are carried out as civilians rather than soldiers. The US/Coalition troops can’t tell whether the individual in front of them is a terrorist or a genuine civilian. So, they blur reality for both Iraqi civilians and the military.
But they know they can’t win by military tactics, even their abandoning the ‘sanctity of the uniform’, of surrender, of mercy. So, their agenda is to win the war by propaganda. What does ‘winning’ mean for them? It means that all democratic roads are closed for the ME, so that fundamentalist tribalism can be supreme in the area.
To achieve this, they have to defeat both the West AND, the millions of Iraqi people who want democracy. Their tactic is simple. Propaganda.
Get the west to withdraw their troops. Then, the insurgents from the neighbouring tribal regimes will move in even more, terrorize the Iraqi people, and return the regime to a tribal dictatorship.
Therefore, their key tactic is to establish an intimate working relationship with the Western MSM. Get the MSM to promote leaving, get the Western Left to deride the war, to ignore the achievements and hopes of the Iraqi people, get them to pull out. And then – take over and move back into tribal fundamentalism.
Our western media and leftist sophists are only too eager to work with the Al Qaeda and insurgents to achieve this goal.
When the going gets tough, the Left gets to rationalizing.
In a way, the unreasonableness of the left has removed any need for trying to take them seriously. If they were more measured, demonstrated some basis other than anti-Americanism, one might have to think about them for a second.
Look, it’s liks this. Suppose someone in your extended family got into some brou-ha with a nut job, and the nut job started killing your family.
At that point (unless you’re a nut job too), your interest is in killing the threat.
Suppose he kicked in your door and held your wife and children at gunpoint, jabbering about how he was justified because he thinks your cousin did something or other to him.
What do you do? Do you say, “Hey! that’s injustice! Go ahead and pop the top on the baby first.”
Now the US has 2 objectives in Iraq. One is to suck in terrorists and kill them. The other is a long range strategy for the region.
Some look forward to American withdrawal.
Not me. You know, we’re still in Japan. I’d like to see democracy secured in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I’d like to see US-Canadian bases established in that volitile region for decades to come. We need embassiess with intelligence capacities on steroids for a long time to come.
Hell, and for the guys on the ground, who knows, another 5 or 10 years, and it might be pretty good duty. (I could tell you some stories about Saigon… nevermind…)
Some think everything is the US’s fault.
The US is like the immortal words of Jack Gettis is The Two Jakes: “In a town full of lepers, I’m the one with the most fingers.”
So we may be tarnished, but we’re still on the side of the angels.
Anyway, the Left has marginalized itself. Down here they are becoming a minority party, too dopey for prime time. Coulda been a contender, but went ape-shit. Too bad.
Don’t like the US? Tough. Don’t like our policies? Tough. Upset about our military? We’ll send you a Whitman’s sampler.
So my message to the terrorists and the terrorist lovers and terrorist appeasers and the people who want to hire them lawyers:
Do not f**k with the North American forces or our spooks. We’ll jerk out your eyeballs and show them to you before you die. And then we’ll let the Rottweilers eat the rest of you.
— a VietNam vet who’s been there
Again, I repeat. The proof that Iraq and Afghanistan are military disasters is now, right now, in those countries.
There is no safety for anyone, least of all troops, government officials, and employees of the American or Iraqi governments.
The only safety that exists is there because you have the weapons to ensure your safety. No weapon, means no safety. If you are an official you must have paid security or you will be killed.
How can you call this success? This is just too stupid for words. You guys are in terminal denial of reality.
This is not the military’s fault either. They are the victims as much as the Iraqis. Some of the military leaders(?) who went along with this incompetent civilian leadership(?) should be held accountable but by and large the military have been abused by their government(again).
Just today, today! I heard on pbs radio this morning that over 50,000 soldiers have sought help for mental problems(see greg outside dallas last line of his post). Soldiers don’t just come home from being trained killers and plug back in to life. There are more tragedies occuring now in the USA as a result of this misguided, pre-emptive testosterone driven debacle than we will ever catagorize.
And 8 more soldiers are going to be charged with murder and other related charges.
Two soldiers killed earlier were discovered to have been killed by the Iraqi soldiers they were on patrol with!!
All this I heard today! Just today! This crap has been going on since Oct. 2001. What has been accomplished besides alienating the world and at least half of America’s own people?
It is absurd in the extreme that people can still be defending this garbage while real people die and are maimed every moment of every day.
Hey steve d., screw you. We don’t want you in our foxhole.
I only fought in one war. I know people who have fought in 3.
In the US, half the people you run into have been in the service. Our VFW and American Legion halls swell with men and women from every generation.
The thing you should really be afraid of is the fact that on sites like Kate’s jillions of American and Canadian conservatives have discovered that we see completely eye to eye. We’re on the same page and we’re talking with each other. The fact that all this business about US citizens and Canadian citizens being very different and having nothing in common has been swept away by our mutual feelings.
Sometimes PC political BS tests the patience of better men.
steved, you aren’t making any sense. You are just spouting hysterical opinions without evidence.
So what if 8 US military are charged with murder? Only 8? Fighting in a war where the opposition are dressed as civilians? THINK!
And they are charged. You say nothing about the murders committed by the insurgents, do you? They aren’t charged. Don’t you see the difference? It’s astonishing how you fail to see what is going on!
No, not every Iraqi is threatened; most of the Iraqi and Afghan towns are peaceful. Got that? No, you don’t want to know this. You ignore that. Why?
I know why. Because you have no interest in facts; you made up your mind a long, long time ago. The US is bad; the Iraq war is bad, the Afghan war is bad. Facts that deny your opinions, and most facts do, ..you ignore them. You are the one who is in denial of reality.
What’s your point about greg outside dallas??? He doesn’t have any mental problems, but your continuous denial of reality is a problem.
I suggest you check out some sites that detail what is economically and socially happening in those two countries – before you write off all the people there as helpless idiots.
Steve D.
So if something is hard it is not worth doing?
Best learn to goosestep them cause freedom is hard. It’s hard to get and it’s hard to keep. Those who don’t think it’s worth the effort will lose it.
KOS is a leftist in the mould of Lenin. Fairly intelligent, not without some culture, good at twisting words and facts. And savage. Analogies with Reinhold Heydrich also come to mind. The Democrats in the US are said to fear KOS. I can see why. Pity any country in which he has influence.
Ivan said he is: “a sincere friend of the Iraqi people”. Moscow opposed the war in Iraq, Ivan pleads. Ivan eats crow. Da. …-
Russian diplomats ‘to be killed'(in Iraq by apparently the same group that murdered 2 US Soldiers)
BBC ^ | 06-21-2006 | BBC
Insurgents in Iraq have announced their intention to kill four Russian diplomats being held hostage, according to an internet posting. The statement, which could not be authenticated, said the men would be killed after Russia refused to bow to its demands to pull out of Chechnya.
The four Russian embassy staff were kidnapped in Baghdad on 3 June.
Russia has appealed for the men’s release, insisting Moscow is “a sincere friend of the Iraqi people”.
Russia “did everything for Iraq not to find itself in the situation that it is in today”, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said, referring to Moscow’s opposition to the war in Iraq.
“Hating us and taking our compatriots hostage is completely unjust. It doesn’t correspond to reality or the interests of the Iraqi people,” he said. …-
freerepublic.com
Warwick
If something is stupid its not worth doing.
We have no business occupying a foreign country.
The US invades a sovereign country deposes its government, sets up a puppet regime and then has the puppet regime ask them to stay and ‘help’. How convenient. How long will they stay? Until the pipeline is built or forever?
First off the rotation has brought the number of personal to around 1 million having served in the wars.
Associated Press | ANDREW TAYLOR | Posted February 27, 2006 11:22 PM
Veterans To Suffer Major Health Care Cuts Under Bush Budget…
At least tens of thousands of veterans with non-critical medical issues could suffer delayed or even denied care in coming years to enable President Bush to meet his promise of cutting the deficit in half — if the White House is serious about its proposed budget.
After an increase for next year, the Bush budget would turn current trends on their head. Even though the cost of providing medical care to veterans has been growing by leaps and bounds, White House budget documents assume a cutback in 2008 and further cuts thereafter.
Damn your dumb, don’t you read what your own government is doing, no wonder the US is in such bad shape.
Greg(outside Dallas)
(Somtime PC political BS tests the patiance of better men.) As a follow up, I have a brother living overseas who ends every communication with the letters (in the lower corner) DLTBGYD (Don’t Let The Bastards Grind Ya Down) He is refering to all these left looneys and PC clowns that inhabit this world. You stand up and speak your mind. That is a good thing. I am Happy to have neighbors like you.
Originally published May 24, 2006
It’s wrong to raise vets’ health-care costs
By Adolf P. Sgambelluri
This is an open discussion on the subject of shifting health-care costs to military beneficiaries, which is designed to focus on our representative, Delegate Madeleine Bordallo, a request for her to please oppose this Department of Defense plan. Cutting benefits will only hurt long-term retention and readiness during a critical period to continue the global war on terrorism.
This DOD plan is designed to make thousands of military retirees pay $1,000 more each year for their health coverage. Defense planners/leaders want these fee hikes to help pay for weapons systems and make military benefits track more closely to civilian plans.
The ties which bind Canada and the US are shown here:
Greg (outside dallas) said: “Do not f**k with the North American forces or our spooks.”
The Canadian Black Watch’s motto is:
NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT. It means “No one provokes me with impunity”. …-
wretchard said…
It’s amazing how many countries you find right under the surface participating in this War on Terror thing. European countries, African countries, Arab countries, Asian countries.
Some time ago there was an allegation that there were Secret Prisons in Europe. Maybe there were prisons but they were probably not very secret to the governments of those countries, though they’ve denied they ever existed. So this is the way it probably works. Everybody gets to spit in the USA’s face in public, then with their left hand they secretly hand poor Uncle Sam some change. Or like the 19th century streetwalkers all the gents would see in the shadows and refuse to recognize in broad day. The deal is keep us safe and if we spit in your face, you’ll understand old chap. Appearances and all. Torture is illegal, but if you must save us, we know you’ll do the “right” thing.
I think I’ll go get a beer. This line of reasoning is making me feel bad.
…-
belmont club
Look, it’s liks this. Suppose someone in your extended family got into some brou-ha with a nut job, and the nut job started killing your family.
Greg (outside Dallas)who in your family did an Iraqi or afghani kill, I must’ve missed that one? Before the invasion who did they kill in either of our countries?
Neutralsam, Steve D. Thank you.
Debris, a few of your arguments make good sense.
Neutralsam, Steve D,
I’d recommend you ignore ET. It seems that ET, will try to make any wrong look right and justify it in some way. I wonder how ET would feel if the tables were turned and we had foreign troops occupying our streets. And one more thing, people here seem so concerned with whether it was 8 or 16 US soldiers convicted of murder or some horrible crime. What about when massive bombs fall on villages causing a lot of “collateral” damage? Is that not enough to cause even the slightest bit of concern? Or are we just going to squabble over 8 or 16. I’m quite tired of the double standards. Terror is terror, whether it’s dropped from a plane or blown up in a market.
Debris, you have some good points…but when you said:
“Do you reall not understand the difference between detonating a bomb in a market, purposefully, and killing civilians by accident after incredibly strict protocols are followed?”
Debris, how cheap is Iraqi life to you? Again, turn the tables and I bet you’d be willing to sacrifice a lot less.
I also recommend ignoring Greg. Sounds a bit gung-ho about war. Greg, which side did you pick when the US was aiding both Iran and Iraq during their 8 year war? Saddam was a good guy then wasn’t he. Your government plays sneaky politics, you appear to want to support anything they do.
“I also recommend ignoring Greg. Sounds a bit gung-ho about war. Greg, which side did you pick when the US was aiding both Iran and Iraq during their 8 year war? Saddam was a good guy then wasn’t he. Your government plays sneaky politics, you appear to want to support anything they do.”
j, why don’t you just go for the gold, and ask how I feel about Osama bin Laden?
When he was with the muhajadeen fighting against the USSR I liked him. When he started flying planes into American cities and killing American citizens, he became an enemy. Not an abstract one. A real enemy.
And as far as being gung ho for war,
Rob C, thanks buddy. I’m gung ho for all the Canadian troops in Afghanistan. If you get a chance, tell them that there’s a Texas vet who speaks for many when he says, “Thank you for your service.”
Maybe we can start putting a bounty on tangos.
Just answer the question.
While you’re at it (if you’re at it), tell me when Saddam ordered an attack on US soil?
I also recommend distinguishing between blind patriotism and serving humanity.
Washington Behind Indo-Pakistan Conflict: How American Special Forces organised the evacuation of Al Qaeda and Pakistan ISI Forces to Kashmir.
In interviews, however, American intelligence officials and high-ranking military officers said that Pakistanis were indeed flown to safety, in a series of nighttime airlifts that were approved by the Bush Administration. The Americans also said that what was supposed to be a limited evacuation apparently slipped out of control, and, as an unintended consequence, an unknown number of Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters managed to join in the exodus.the Administration ordered the United States Central Command to set up a special air corridor to help insure the safety of the Pakistani rescue flights from Kunduz to the northwest corner of Pakistan… [According to] an Indian assessment, thirtythree hundred prisoners surrendered… A few hundred Taliban were also turned over to other tribal leaders… That left between four and five thousand men unaccounted for. “Where are the balance?” … None of the American intelligence officials I spoke with were able to say with certainty how many Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters were flown to safety, or may have escaped from Kunduz by other means. India, wary of antagonizing the Bush Administration, chose not to denounce the airlift at the time….Diplomatic notes protesting the airlift were sent to Britain and the United States. Neither responded… Indian intelligence was convinced that many of the airlifted fighters would soon be infiltrated into Kashmir. There was a precedent for this… Our reading is that the fighters can go only to Kashmir.”
Why would the CIA remove these guys from Harms way?
In interviews, however, American intelligence officials and high-ranking military officers said that Pakistanis were indeed flown to safety, in a series of nighttime airlifts that were approved by the Bush Administration. The Americans also said that what was supposed to be a limited evacuation apparently slipped out of control, and, as an unintended consequence, an unknown number of Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters managed to join in the exodus. “Dirt got through the screen,” a senior intelligence official told me. Last week, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld did not respond to a request for comment.
steved.
The US is not occupying Iraq.
The gov’t of Iraq is not a puppet gov’t of the US. You are insulting the Iraqi people, who voted for that gov’t.
And it would be constructive if you would learn something about the social and political structure of Iraq and the whole ME, if you would learn something of demographics and population dynamics eg, the ratio of population increase over the past two decades, the move from rural to urban, the nature of the economy, etc.
Assisting a country trapped in a military tribal dictatorship to move into democracy is not a stupid act. It’s very smart. It’s called ‘serving humanity’.
J – you can recommend whatever you want. That doesn’t make your recommendation reasonable or valid.
Same questions I posed apply to you as well ET.
Turn the tables, how many civilian lives are you willing to sacrifice over here?
You said:
“Assisting a country trapped in a military tribal dictatorship to move into democracy is not a stupid act. It’s very smart. It’s called ‘serving humanity’.”
Yeah, when it pleases you. Why don’t you invade North Korea? The people are starving there. How about Egypt? Hosni Mubarak has been “President” for decades. In the last election, the police physically prevented people from voting. But Mr. Mubarak is a huge US ally. I’m sorry ET (and Greg), but unless you serve humanity with a single standard level of justice, you become “invalid”.
The worst of it seems that you just don’t admit to any wrong doing on part of the US. None whatsoever. There must be angels running that country.
FROM: Zalmay Khalilzad, US Ambassador, Baghdad
TO: Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of State
SENSITIVE MATERIAL
The summary
Iraqi staff in the Public Affairs sector have complained that Islamist and militia groups have been negatively affecting daily routine. Harassment over proper dress and habits is increasingly persuasive. They also report power cuts and fuel prices have diminished quality of life.
Women’s rights
Two of our three female employees report stepped up harassment beginning in May. One, a Shiite who favours Western clothing, was advised by a woman in her neighbourhood to wear a veil and not drive her car. She said some groups are pushing women to cover their face, a step not taken in Iran at its most conservative.
Another said people are harassing women to cover up and stop using cellphones. The driver who brings her to the Green Zone said he cannot let her ride unless she wears a headcover.
The women say they cannot identify the groups. Some ministries, notably the Sadrist controlled Ministry of Transport, have been forcing females to wear the hijab at work.
Dress code for all?
Staff members have reported it is now dangerous for men to wear shorts in public; they no longer allow their children to play outside in shorts. People who wear jeans in public have come under attack.
Evictions
One colleague beseeched us to help a neighbour uprooted from her home of 30 years on the pretence of some long-disused law. The woman is a Fayli Kurd. Such uprootings may be response by new Shiite Government authorities to similar actions against Arabs by Kurds in other parts of Iraq.
Power shortages
Temperatures in Baghdad have already reached 46C. Employees confirm that, by the last week of May, they were getting one hour of power for every six hours without.
By early June, the situation had improved slightly. In Hal al-Shaab, power has improved from one in six to one in three hours. Areas near hospitals, party headquarters and the Green Zone have the best supply. One staff member reported a friend lives in a building that houses a new minister; within a day of his appointment, her building had power 24 hours a day.
All staff pay for neighbourhood generators. One pays US$50 a month to get eight hours of power per day.
Nice that were bringing freedom to the people of Iraq.
J, you haven’t been here long, but you catch on quickly. The jingoism here this afternoon is too rich for my blood, so I’m taking a break.
By the way, Maz2, do you know where the RHC is to-day? I do. Pro patria.
No, I don’t admit that the US was wrong to invade Iraq. That’s because I think that they were right. Why would I tell you something in which I did not believe? Just because you want me to??
Please explain what you mean – civilian lives sacrificed over here – for what purpose? Do you mean if we were trapped within a vicious military dictatorship? If we had a Saddam Hussein and his thugs ruling Canada? Are you seriously saying that freedom is worth only x-number of sacrifices and if it’s x plus one, then, freedom isn’t worth it? And that instead, people should submit to the murderous dictatorship?
Invading N. Korea wouldn’t result in the transformation of the ME from tribalism into democracy. That’s the agenda behind the Iraq invasion. It’s a domino effect. The other tribal nations are fighting to retain tribalism. If tribalism weren’t a threat to the west – then, possibly, we could stay out. But, it is a threat. The agenda of the ME tribalism is to force the West into tribalism. Do you prefer the tribal closed society to our open democratic society?
N. Korea is a different situation. There is already democracy nearby – S. Korea. The situation is internal to N. Korea. What has to happen is the weakening of the dictatorship of N. Korea, which will happen with economic sanctions, restrictions and internal entropy. It can’t retain itself by itself. But, invading wouldn’t achieve that result.
Egypt? So, the fact that the presidency is not a limited term is, frankly, none of our business. There is no universal rule on this planet that says that elected leaders have limited terms – even though it might be a constructive rule. And, it has nothing to do with justice.
Again, I strongly support the US in Iraq. They did, and are, doing the right thing. Three cheers for them. Democracy is worth fighting for.
warwick
Saddam was contained. He was declawed in 1991. He had a shell of a military. He was near the end of his run. His regime was broken. His sons were crazy. The situation would have imploded within a few short years. Then you back the friendly party discreetly.
If someone harbours a terrorist you zero in on the terrorist and kill him. The Israelis did this after the Munich olympics. You hunt them and kill them wherever they are. One by one, methodically, incessantly, hunt and kill. It takes patience and time. It doesn’t have much cowboy bravado but it is effective and you don’t end up having horrible publicity around the world day in and day out like America has now.
neutralsam – anecdotes are irrelevant; one can find opposite anecdotes. The only data that is relevant is a statistical average. Your references to one taxi driver, and one neighbour and so on – simply isn’t empirical evidence. It’s not only hearsay but it’s anecdotal.
I can give you all kinds of similar ‘neighbourhood pressure’ anecdotes here, in my western country.
The elevator malfunctioned and the service couldn’t come for hours; our quality of life is threatened without immediate service.
Someone parking in the lane threatened our security – that’s never happened before.
Two of our three staff came to work in jeans and were told to wear their uniform.
Members of a particular tribe blockaded a road and burned a bridge, while the police stood by and did nothing. The tribe also attacked some tourists and threatened them.
A group is insisting that people not use cell phones in their car. Another group is asking that new drivers will not even be allowed to have a cellphone.
A tenant was evicted from their home because the owner wants to tear down the building and put up a new condominium.
A new roof was put on someone’s home; it leaks; the builder refuses all phone calls from the owner.
There are more and more random shootings in our city.
A store near here was robbed overnight; it was an ‘inside job’.
N-Sam: Cool it already. Your proof is da proof amounts to nothing. We are humoring your so-called stats, but as ET says, equal in number and contrary such stats can be dredged up by anyone.
You are completely wasting your time and ours; here’s why.
Almost all reasons all of us have for or against the War are not hard statistical facts. They are based on our “interpretation” of events that are very recent or unfolding as we speak… none of which have been accurately quantified. Furthermore, we are dealing mostly with geopolitics which are in flux and a form of terrorism which is also in flux.
For example, anyone can argue using current realities that terrorism is worse as a result of the Iraq War. But, anyone can also argue that it would’ve been worse, were there not an Iraq War. We can do this because the endgame hasn’t occured yet… there is no historic conclusion to this at this point. So, we all put faith in our “belief” and our “understanding” of what is best, and what will be best for the future.
Using innane acecdotal points as ET says prove nothing… for either side. Using the current situation on the ground also proves nothing, either way, because we have no idea what the future holds and whose version of “on the ground” is more accurate.
ie: The most violent and deadly encounters of the entire second world war took place at the end of the conflict. The Russian conquest of Germany and the American conquest of the Japanese home islands were the most deadly for both sides. Yet, this mass bleeding was proof that the end was near…
I’ll give you one little example of the falacy of your claims, as they are given without “context.” For instance, did you know that because of the economic boom in Iraq, the purchase of AC units and refigerators is enormous and that that alone has increased demand on power by a magnitude of 5 times what it was during Saddam. Did you know that power used to be routed to Baghdad under Saddam, but is now distributed more or less equally to other major cities… where the demand is outstripping the ability to generate… even with new stations on line. So, what does that prove… success… or failure?
You see, context means everything… yet you just don’t get it.
Debris,
I agree, context means everything. I don’t agree that just because you don’t know the “endgame” of the Iraq war, that Iraq should be the West’s guinea pig to find out. As a result, tens of thousands of lives have been lost, because we think invading another country is better for the Iraqis (oh, let me not forget…better for us because our freedom was in dire need of protection).
Debris, you said:
“For example, anyone can argue using current realities that terrorism is worse as a result of the Iraq War. But, anyone can also argue that it would’ve been worse, were there not an Iraq War.”
Really? Can anyone argue that it would have been worse had there not been a war? If that’s the line of thinking we should use, I would then encourage the US to conquer a whole list of other countries because, well, hey, ..I can argue that it could be worse if they don’t. Pure baseless speculation.
ET, Egypt has no democracy and they receive a large amount of financial aid from the US each year. They also jail outspoken opponents. Jordan, is another friend of the US. Jordan is run by monarchy. Wait a minute, ET, do you remember seeing King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia walking literally hand in hand with Bush when the King visited the US last time? But that shouldn’t bother you that Saudi is run by a tough monarchy regime that will put you away for uttering a word against the ruling family. No, don’t worry ET, you can continue to focus on Saddam – ignore the rest of the oppression that goes on, supported by the US.
J- what’s your point?
Egypt is a twist-in-the-wind borderline democracy. So? You don’t move out of tribalism into democracy like a light switch.
Jordan is a monarchy. Careful, so is the UK, so is Denmark; so is the Netherlands. So?
SA is more troublesome but is slipping out of tribalism because it’s unsustainable.
Neither of these states are brutal military dictatorships. Iraq was; Iraq was also a key ‘pin’ in the ME. Move it out of tribalism and allow the people to form their own democracy and you enable democracy to seep into the ME via the backdoor. The backdoor means via the people. That’s the best way.
You, of course, prefer the dictatorships? The tribalism? That leads to the exporting of terrorism around the world? Because the ‘root cause’ of terrorism is tribal dictatorships in countries whose population has become too large for such repressive political systems.
ET
So Uncle Sam is overflowing with ultruism eh?
That would be a first.
International Relations 101, will tell you that nations act in self interest, period.
So the proper question is why did the US choose to invade Iraq rather than Iran or Saudi Arabia? Both have oil and have more definitive connections to terrorism.
steved – the answer is (1) because Iraq was in violation of UN sanctions against WMD.
(2) By the way, you are forgetting that it wasn’t simply the US that went into Iraq. What is your purpose in ignoring the important contribution of the UK? And Spain, Poland, Italy, Japan, etc, etc.
(3) And, because of the domino infrastructure that would enable the dispersion of democracy across the ME, if it began in one of the ME tribalisms. Iraq was actually the most strategically viable ‘start’, since it was under one dictator and his family, while Iran is under a religious regime, and SA under a royal heritage.
4)The war has nothing to do with oil.
5) It is about terrorism, which is a result of tribalism within population bases that have grown too large for a tribal sociopolitical and economic mode.
6)Humans act in both self-interest and altruism. The same with nations. Nations are, after all, constructs of humans. Nations are not biological entities. Have you ever seen a nation walking around? A nation is made up of humans. Again, humans act out of both self-interest and altruism.
Are you aware of the massive amounts of aid that the US gives to countries around the world? Remember, a nation is a human construct. Not a biological entity. Therefore, a nation does what it does, because its citizens desire it to do so.