18 month old Paige Hansen is currently in a hospital in Edmonton. Her family finally decided Thursday to seek help elsewhere (doing so without “permission” from SaskHealth, and therefore at their own expense) after waiting three weeks for diagnosis of her pain in Saskatoon. The child was “screaming every waking minute”, and had stopped walking 6 days earlier. In the meantime, they were advised to give her children’s Tylenol.
According to a family member being interviewed, the care they received in Edmonton began immediately, testing was done during the first night there. This morning they have a preliminary diagnosis of leukemia.
You can listen live as the story is discussed this morning on John Gormley Live. (The show repeats in the evening for those who missed it – check the link for programming details).
Yeah kate, you and Gormley and Grant Devine really showed us how it was done in the 80’s.
“Remember, private health care is in the business to…wait for it…”make money””
Uhmmm…do doctors in the public system donate their time and talents for free? Don’t they get paid…wait for it…MONEY?
“The total cost of healthcare in Canada, despite what you might think, is the same per capita as it is in the US.”
Not so. The US gov’t spends more per capita on public health care than Canada does, and that’s in addition to all that private care. Medicare for senior citizens, and Medicaid for the poor who have no insurance. And all those privately insured are included in that “per capita”, which translates into more than twice as much spending on those who are actually covered.
“Canadian Conservative” has an interesting e-mail address; null@void.com. Maybe Kiefers’ buddies at the LAT gave him the idea.
zuma
I am sure that young Paige’s family will be comforted by your opinion that at least health care was worse in the 1980’s. (As I remember the Devine government built hospitals and the NDP closed 58 of them). And that, sir, is the problem with this debate. Whenever real people ask “Why is this so bad?” The “progressives” respond by talking about 20 years ago! Face the truth, please. There are hundreds of these stories. Can we at least admit that we have a problem TODAY and work on TODAYs issues without resorting to school yard taunts and completely irrelevant comparisons to 25 years ago?
Sheesh, it is no wonder people leave here. An entire group refuses to admit that the 80’s are over!
The health care treatment Paige Hansen received is reflective of socialism in action. The taxpayers of Sask. have become the civil servants to incompetent socialist bureaucrats, fatcat unionists and utopian politicians.
Furthermore, I would encourage the Hansen family to procure legal counsel to sue jointly and severally the incomnpetent medical staff, the hospital, the district health board, and the NDP government. It seems that adverse publicity and a lawsuit is the only action that may have some effect on the healthcare mandarins.
Being a nurse, a simple CBC (blood test) would have been the first indicator that Paige was very sick and a preliminary diagnoses could have been achieved in about 2 days. All Dr.s and nurses involved in Paige’s care were grossly negligent. All should be sued, an investigation conducted, and appropriate consequences levied.
Paige’s story came to media attention. How many other stories of negligence or even deaths are unreported. I would venture to say there are many more quickly and quietly buried…no pun intended!
Oh no pilot, I do indeed realize the 80,s are over, but we are still living with the hangover. So when Kate says that Douglas did so much damage to this province, that his influence was destructive, his ideology cancerous, then it is entirely appropriate to point out that the most destructive, damaging, and ideologically cancerous force in Sask. history was that of the Conservative government of Grant Devine. And the Kates and Gormleys of this world are still trying to sell us that old free-market fundamentalism, despite it’s sorry history in this province. Lest We Forget.
You know zuma, I was there in the 80’s. I don’t remember it being that bad. What’s up with that?
Sure, the $10000 home improvment grant/loan (depending on who you talk to) was a vast vote buying scheme and the Tories deserved to be roundly punished for that.
Sure, some cabinet members broke the rules and had to go to jail . . . rules which were then voided in the first year of the new gov’t so that no one else had to go to jail.
I remember a speech by Douglas about when he brought in health care and an elderly lady had a cist or something removed that was the size of an orange or something like that. He was illustrating how inequal and inefficient the private system was, he was using this poor womans condition as a political stick to beat the public system into Saskatchewans mindset.
The one thing I don’t recall in the 80’s is having two news stories in consequetive weeks about our “43c on the tax dollar” health care system _willfully_ endangering and conspiring to _murder_ two people. The only relief from their would be assassins was media exposure. In fact, the first begat the second.
No, I don’t remember that happening in the 80’s. Do you?
Cheers,
lance
Lance…The 8o’s weren’t that bad? You were there? The rec-room renovation subsidy was just the tip of the iceberg. From 1905 to 1982 the province had accumulated a debt of $3.3 billion. By 1990 this debt had risen to $12.7 billion. All the while the tories. in their ideological zeal, were divesting provincial assets through privatization.When they were finally dragged, kicking and screaming, from office, the Conservatives had bankrupted this province.
Do we have problems in healthcare? You bet. But privatizing the system sounds like that same old Tory snake oil and I ain’t buying.
Of course the main issue here is the incompetence of the attending doctor in Sask. I wonder why there are not more lawsuits? I wont bore you with the many instances that i know of where doctors were negligent, or incompetent, and nothing ever comes of it.
There is an issue here that needs to be corrected. My view is that there are many doctors who need to have their license revoked, and there obviously needs to be a mechanism to do that
I live in a hamlet of 25 people and these socialists bastards won’t even pay for us to have a doctor or a hospital. I have to drive 90 minutes just to get stitches. I bet if we had private healthcare, there would be a doctor here to service all 25 of us.
instead of ” pay for profit” heath care like CBCpravda always calls it .
It should be “pain for non-profit” health care.
the “beer eau crats” dont care if your arm falls off as long as the forms are filled out correctly and they have another days work filing on the same system
I, too, am tired of the “progressives” using the old scary Grant Devine tag from 25 years ago as well. I guess if you are a conservative, that means that you are an identical twin of Grant Devine and that you will repeat all mistakes. Never mind that it was the NDP associated with Spudco and they seem intent on dipping their fingers into every business pie in order to repeat their mistakes! Get over Grant Devine – I really don’t want to hear about it. The problems SK faces today have nothing to do with 25 years ago when virtually all governments around the world were gaining debts (the difference being that Alberta voted Conservative and brought their debt to zero while we voted NDP and the government is now budgeting to increase our debt). Grant Devine did not ruin health care it happened on its own and we had better find a way of fixing it instead of the left-wing favourite – any change might be worse than the status quo therefore, no change at all.
Poor Paige. Now if only her folks had put a dog collar on her and taken her to a vet, she probably would have been diagnosed within a day.
Remember the cases a while back, where patients were waiting for months on end for MRI’s, only to discover that dogs were using them in the off-hours with nary a delay?
Typical Saskabush health care.
zuma
And, once again, let’s talk about the 80’s instead of the issue today. The debate reduces to “we tried something different before and it didn’t work – we’ll never make that mistake again”. Endlessly repreating that mantra stifles debate and makes the operative decision matrix one of fear – Fear of change, fear of the past, fear of long past political regimes. The Paige’s of the world deserve better from all of us. The issue is a health care system that is failing. A health care system invented (at least in part) by Tommy Douglas. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but now, today, we need to evolve.
I for one am prepared to try some different delivery systems that reward the participants for being efficient, that reward the caregivers for outcomes, that punish the system for failing to deliver on the promises made to people -Promises such as timely treatment. I don’t pretend to know what the answer is. I have heard of European systems that seem to offer hope and I would like to give our politicians licence to at least try something else. It can be an experiement, it is ok if maybe a test doesn’t work out – that’s the way most progress is made. However, I am no longer willing to stay stuck in neutral, revving the engine every time a child is forced to suffer at the feet of our holy “universal health care system”. It is failing. Accept it. Open your mind. Don’t be afraid of change. And please, please don’t mention Grant Devine again in this context.
We are all outraged at how our system failed young Paige. And so we should be. In the next election let our voices be heard by the thunderous number of our votes hitting the bottom of the ballot box!
I find this whole debate about medicine and money to be so superficial. It really boils down to this. Anyone who really believes that there should not be profit in medicine has never been really sick and required the type of health care that this province cannot provide. Eight years ago I developed a rare medical condition and thank God for that terrible (for profit) corporation known as the Mayo Clinic or I would not be here typing out this message to you.
We know of many other places where profit is a dirty word. Let me think now. Oh yes, China, Russia, Cuba. There must be others.
Hey Zumer, I was there 25 years ago and besides Mt St Helens, I don’t recall any great disaster or even what Grant Devine did of note, either good or bad. I remember auto insurance was kind of cheap unless you had a claim and then it was a matter of letting the insurance companies settle it.
Dare I say it but Saskatchewan needs to grow up, evolve and adapt to the ever changing world. If not then the province will be as dead as those dinosaurs under your feet. It ain’t the “Dirty Thirties” anymore folks.
BTW: just to make you think… saw doctor(specialist at that) on a Friday about back pain. Next Monday the clinic called to set up an appointment for MRI. Had it done a week after that only because the Christmas holidays prevented me from doing it sooner. Also, it is a safe bet to say that the hospital I work in has more MRIs than the whole province of Saskatchewan. And I should say my MRI was not done here at work.
From what I understand, Paige’s local family doctor sent them to Saskatoon – to one of those big “tertiary care” hospitals that were to take the place of the dozens of rural hospitals Romanow closed – only to be shuffled around, lied to, and sent home. They were waiting for a pediatrician who was on holidays, and nobody told them. Then, after three weeks, they were told it was going to be another three weeks before they saw one.
I have read with interest the many comments on the posting about Paige. My heart goes out to Paige and all of her family. I only hope that they will continue to be pro-active and an active participant in all the health care decisions that are ahead of them. As hard as it may be in a situation such as this it will be worth it.
Our health care system across Canada is a challenging system to say the least. As a retired nurse (I left because I had challenges with certain staffing policies) I can tell you that as users of this system you can no longer sit back and expect the system to take care of you. You must be proactive and be an active participant. Having been both a care �giver� and a care �taker� the process of being a pro-active care �taker� can be both intimidating and empowering.
That being said there are a number of things I would encourage everyone to do when having a �health care experience�
1. Keep your own written record of whatever health challenge is occurring in your life. This includes a current list of all tests done, where they were done, and names of specialists seen. Reason for doing this is to facilitate the flow of information between you and all the health care professionals you may have to deal with. On a side note it also impresses on the health care professional that you are keeping a written record and in their minds places you as a pro- active participant in your health care.
2. If at all possible get copies of the reports of the tests done. This will help you keep the information current in your mind. It also helps the health care professionals in determining what tests may need to be repeated and what new tests may need to be ordered.
3. Once you are given information do your research. The Internet is an excellent research tool. That�s what a search engine is for. I would caution you to stick to mainstream medical sites. These sites will be informative and not subjective.
4. In the event that your family doctor is sending you to a specialist and asks you whom you�d like to see, ask him/her whom they would send their own family member to.
5. When you are going to see a specialist or even your own family doctor write down your questions and encourage the doctor to write down any words that you don�t understand or want to do further internet research on.
6. Recognize that any health care challenge is stressful. When we are stressed our listening abilities may be hampered. Therefore I would encourage you to have a second person with you when discussing diagnosis, reports from tests, and treatment options. On that note please feel free to bring your own relevant information that you may have gotten from research on the Internet.
7. If your health care experience starts in a hospital emergency ward always make sure that people who are part of your health care team introduce themselves. If necessary write the name down. This is especially important so you can keep track of which specialists you have seen.
8. When dealing with a flow of information between health care professionals and a recipient of the care who is not physically or emotionally capable of being their own health care advocate it is important that the family agrees on who the healthcare advocate will be and tells the health care professionals who that contact will be.
These are just a few suggestions. It is important to understand that our health care professionals work as a team and it is important that we choose to be captain of our own health care team.
In closing I wish that situations like Paige�s would never happen but even the best system will have failings. When they happen it is important that we, or some one we appoint as our health care advocate, step up and take control. Never be afraid to ask for a second opinion and never be afraid to investigate other options and implement them.
PS Sorry for the length of this post
Bottom line should be, if the state mandates itself as provider of health care, then they should provide it, by whatever means. If this means a referral to a private clinic of other juristiction, so be it. Essentially, that was the argument of the Supreme Court of Canada. IMHO, there are a lot of people in this debate who are in conflict of interest, ie-public sector unions, private clinics. Let’s put all the options on the table and properly define the challenge, which is – how to we ensure timely access to medically necessary treatments. For too long the challenge/problem has been phrased as, how do we save the public medicare system?
An elderly, but wise man once told me: “Dr’s BURY their mistakes.” And if I’m not mistaken, there is almost no recourse in this country to persue mal-practice against a “public health care” provider.
Funding levels aside, as a licensed Dr., they are obligated to provide the best treatment they are personally capable of providing. The cost of this or that test is not his concern. HE alone decides what his patient requires as a course of treatment, and then orders that treatment. When he fails to order a series of tests that will identify or eliminate a disease or injury, that is gross negligence and not a reflection of the health care system as a whole.
The only way ‘system’ is to blame, is when there is wait times for diagnostic eqipment such as an MRI machine, or a visit to a specialist, or a bed in a hospital. The Dr. determines the treatment, not the system.
My biggest concern is the amount of time that child was in distress and how the Sask medical system failed her. The whole health care system seems to have failed in its duty to provide care. This is why I believe a debate should happen about private medical services. In Canada, we wait up to 2-3 months, maybe longer for an MRI. In the USA, one can obtain an MRI within 24 hours for a DOG. Yes you have to pay, but if I had the choice to either wait for the provincial system for care for my sick child, or pay and get immediate help�I would pay.
Arctic front, that is too simplistic a view. The socialist system is shaping the doctors to maintain the system rather than the patient. Doctors are reprimanded when they order too many tests etc. Doctors are retiring early, taking less hours, etc because they are having trouble practising good medicine in the “system”. The limited access to all facilities puts huge stress and is extremely time consuming for the family doctor as he/she has to fight the system constantly (hours on the phone etc) in order to get treatment for their patients. I could go on and on but believe me, the system definitely affects the practice of doctors in many ways.
Also, the family doctor is supposed to offer the option of quicker care in a private system/US if the risk time is considerable in order to protect themselves in court. There are bad doctors, for sure, however, in general, doctors care deeply for their patients and even they are susceptible to the politics of “maintaining the system”.
And yet Calvert and his box of useless tools are still running the show…..
Donations came be made at http://www.ckom.com
Doug…like I said, damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.
Private health care is in business to provide a service and make money, quite simple.
Public health care was suppose to free doctors/nurses/drop in centres of the added burden of paying the bills on time.
Unfortunately, some see this as a cash cow, or whackjob method of making budgets. Ever wonder what the head guys make at CRHA? Something like $400,000 (could be wrong).
My personal family could fill the blog site of disasters you are puting together.
1) My father (a life long smoker coughed up blood, saw his physician in Weyburn, Sask. and was told he had a virus and given an antibiotic. The medical axiom is anyone who is over 40 and has smoked for 20 years and coughs up blood, HAS lung cancer until proven otherwise. He coughed up blood again four months later at which time finally a chest X-ray was done—–inoperable lung cancer.
2) My brother’s wife was in labor with ruptured menbranes for twenty six hours (first baby at age 35), she finally presented a FOOT! Her attending obstetrician (in Regina) didn’t know the baby was in a breech position after 26 hours in labor and ruptured membranes. The baby was almost dead ar birth and died three days later.
3) My other brother was getting weaker by the month and saw his physician in Weyburn four or five times over a period of two month. No blood tests or investigations were done (diagnosis was food allergies). Finally called his brother to help take the crop off (too weak to get up on the combine). Taken to hospital and blood count was 20% of what it should have been. Died age 52 of stomach cancer.
4) Mother had complete check up at age 71. Doctor felt she didn’t need a pelvic exam because of age. Six months later had a five pound ovarian cancer removed and died one year later.
5) Sister thought she had breast lump. Saw doctor who said they couldn’t be sure and to check back in six months. Died at age 47 of breast cancer.
Yes, bad things also happen in private systems, but the attitude today is more “it’s probably nothing” rather than “what is the worst thing that it could be and if it was me or my family, would I want further investigation. The public has little idea of how far the pendulum has swung to be cost effective. The public system’s preoccupation with “saving money” is basically the same as “making money”.
The Dr is to blame here. It was a bad judgement call not the health district. And they want to allow laxer qualifications for Dr’s in the future. They say ouur exams are to hard for immigrant dr’s. I say too bad learn the language and pass the exam. We make it too easy and we’ll have more mistakes made in the future.
Is Canadian health care really this bad? In the 1980s I worked with children who had leukemia at a children’s hospital in Seattle. The early symptoms were usually either a cold that wouldn’t go away or, as in this case, joint pain.
More importantly, there was none of this bureaucratic klutzing around. Typically, a kid’s physican would get suspicious and do a blood draw. That same day, the child would be admitted to our floor. The next day the diagnostic workup would begin and the following day we’d start chemotherapy. With an illness like childhood leukemia, you want to hit the ground running.
Unless, of course, the child has the misfortune of being Canadian and must face the indifference of a bean-counting, Tylenol-dispensing bureaucracy.
And yes, we treated all children, regardless of their parent’s ability to pay.
–Mike Perry, author of Untangling Tolkien
Al, that’s a good point about money “saving” being the same as money “making” when lives are involved. Using money as a guide for treatement isn’t socialized medicine.
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Brick Wall, your smarmy post about rural residents not deserving equitible care is pretty sickening.
Of course it was the Doctor’s fault! But the system will make cheats or incompetent asses of us all. Did you ever visit Russia 15 years ago. Friends of mine that did, said the word service did not exist. Remember when East Germany was re-united with West Germany. The word is the East Germans would rather not work. Closer to home, for years the post office had the reputation of not caring and service was hard to come by.
When you take away people’s pride in who they are, you take away their pride in what they DO. Traditionally, physicians have always been the patient’s advocates. For the last 37 years physicians have been paid by the government that continually states we need to be more cost effective. Who do you think most physicians are responding too, the patient or the organization that pays them? We have lost our pride and professionalism—-and what we do reflects that fact.
Dr’s salaries in Sask average over 250,000 a year.
Speciaists make more. How much do they need to be paid?/ I go for a physical once a year. Do know how long my Dr spends with me? 15 mins tops. How the hell can he do a physical in 15 mins? I was told he was a good Dr. That sounds like he’s trying to push through a lot of patients per day.
Try and find a different Dr and they aren’t accepting new patients.
First of all, ok4ua, that figure may be accurate but that is the business gross. Now take out the expenses of the business like the clinic, nurses, supplies, etc etc. I can tell you that after 2 years and 5 years of experience of technology training, I was making as much as my dad, a doctor, after 8 years of school and 40 years of experience – net.
Secondly, not accepting new patients? Doctor’s put in a 60 hour week on average not including on call. As a socialist, what would you suggest? Conscripting 80 hours from our doctors? or a 100? Welcome to socialized medicine. You are reaping the benefits.
Wow! Took me most of the morning but I managed to read all of these comments. I was surprised that no one has actually faced cancer and all of your comments were based on unsubstantiated here say. Well, I have had cancer� as well my father and my stepmother. All I can say is God Bless Our Health Care system. It is only surpassed by the Scandinavian countries. All people are equal� no two tiered system here. And Thank God for that. Those with the money to fly to the Mayo clinic can do so� but the specialists that I have spoken with tell me that Saskatchewan has some of the best oncologists in North America. As well some of the major breakthroughs come from the research done in Saskatoon. The system is not a burden and those of you who think that this big chunk of your tax dollars go to health care are very misinformed. If you were to look at a pie chart of what portion of our tax dollar goes to health and education� it is a sliver. The largest share of our money goes to multi national corporations (strikes me as funny� they make millions in profits, so we subsidize them and not our farmers� who actually need it?). All those people who say privatized health care is what we need are confused. Why is it that the American public envy�s us? Their politician will slam our system but not any of the general public. I have American friends who had great coverage� and still lost their homes. Once you have been treated for cancer your insurance will not cover you again for the same cancer. Most of us cancer survivors know that our biggest fear is recurrence. For 5 years no one will give you insurance� health or life. If you do have a recurrence� you are basically screwed. Privatization is not the answer. Getting our politician to believe more in securing our system we have in place and not being in the business of trying to emulate the Americans� Who, incidentally, have seen their standard of living steadily declined over the past 10 years. I am proud of my country and it�s strong social infrastructure, Equality for all citizens. After all this is not Animal Farm� where some animals are more equal than others!
http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/forums/electionroundtable/2005/12/zerotier_health.html
Here you go, Heather.
Also, your information about the US standard of living is flat wrong. Not only has it risen, it continues to stay about 25% higher than that of Canadians.
Kate,
For what percentile of the public? Why then does the U.S. have the highest incarceration rate in the developed world� and the number of people put to death is next in line to China? I certainly don�t want to live in a country where the social standard is great� for the wealthy. I am so tired of the rich bitches waving their jewelry at me in disgust that they have to pay for that poor native kid or those damned welfare bums to take their child to the doctor. I have real issues with the way the neo-cons see the world through their rose coloured glasses. If you have a privatized system as the US has you will have a care system for the rich and one that is substandard for the poor.
I believe regardless of money we all deserve equal treatment. Socialism works.
Heather:
You said you read through the posts. Did you not see all the family members with CANCER who were misdiagnosed and died in, yes, Saskatchewan which is where.. Canada. Did you not see the post regarding Baby Paige? In Saskatchewan, in Canada.
I am glad you had a good outcome. You are one of the lucky ones. However, you had better take off your rose-colored glasses and remove your earplugs and start actually reading the posts and listening to the stories out there. There are many tragedies out there. Socialism has not worked in medicine, education, or with the natives. I am sure you want to try it not working in daycare as well. Great. Socialism takes away pride and responsibility. If it came to betting my life, I would be selling my house and running to the US.
Lanny,
And you believe that you would be better off in the US? After they discontinue your coverage… then what? I was one of many many who had a recurrance. What would I have done with no coverage. I guess sell my home and do away with the kids college fund and my retirement? Do you truly believe that they don’t misdiagnose patients in the states? I have heard horror stories far worse there. The idea of socialism is equality for all. How do you propose the welfare and poor be taken care of without universal health care? Or are they not an issue here?
By the way you can probably move to the US if you so choose. Do you have children? Are they ready for the proposed draft?
“Dr’s salaries in Sask average over 250,000 a year.”
From those ‘salaries’ (actually, doctors are mostly paid for each service they provide), doctors must maintain an office, hire reception and support staff (ie: cleaners, etc.), purchase liability insurance, pay 45% of their net income to the federal/provincial treasury as income tax, and of course, pay for any training courses necessary to keep current in their profession and/or specialty as prescribed by the College of Physicians and Surgeons.
Using the same metrics, pharmacists make a similar amount of money, even after they pay for drugs. Pharmacists tend to be employees, whereas physicians tend to run independant practices alone or in partnership with other physicians.
Just thought I would clear that up, before you start spreading any ‘myths’ of doctors’ pay.