National Energizing Western Separation Program

59 Replies to “National Energizing Western Separation Program”

1. I saw this in today’s paper – My blood still boiling, and my head is going to explode …

2. Kate,
   When the professor made his comment about what Albertans think, he was merely parroting the opinion of his Prime Minister.Prepare for battle, girl. There’s trouble brewing and we will be in the thick of it.

3. Prediction
   HEADLIINE: Dick Cheney Secretly Discusses Alberta Secession.

4. So some socialist academic in Montreal gets headlines for spouting tired old socialist nostrums and the media listen ?????
   My goodness, the liberal elite are living in some awful backwater down there in Montreal.
   Don’t they realise socialism is passee??

5. Anyone notice how, after the Western Standard released its poll results, there was a bit of panicked chattering in the news, and then suddenly, *poof*, nothing.
   No follow up polls by the MSM to see how legit the original poll was. Just apparently burying their heads, as usual.
   Now, I could be wrong, and just not paying enough attention to the news. Please correct me if that’s so.
   Anyhow, my point is, that if the feds were to push a program like that, it’ll do nothing but flood support towards the ASP.

6. Relax people.
   No one gives a rats ass what some commie professor from Montreal thinks.
   If some jackass from UofC called for Easterners to freeze in the dark… oh, never mind.
   Bottom line, the great think about democracy is that blowhard profs have little to no sway on public policy – and that’s as it should be.
   There will be no NEP II. Aint’s gonna happen. Not even the Liberals are that stupid (anymore.)

7. Warwick, we can dream, can we?

8. Don’t worry Kate. Isn’t gonna happen.
   The Liberal Party knows they are in trouble in Ontario. They won’t gain any seats and may even lose a few. Their only hope is to turn Ontario against Alberta, like they did against Quebec, and make Alberta look like the bad guys because they have all those oil revenues. Adding a National Energy Program plank to their platform may indeed win some votes in Ontario. But this time it’s different. Alberta doesn’t care. And there is no viable Liberal party in Alberta they can funnel money to to get inside help.
   I know exactly how the CPC can handle comments like this once the election begins, and win votes in the process. Besides mentioning the very real threat of Alberta separation, they could suggest that any corporation or business now based in Ontario consider re-locating to Alberta. If it’s so tough to be in business in Ontario these days it isn’t going to get any better. And Alberta should advertise and promote tax incentives for new business moving to Alberta. Last time I looked they could afford that.
   Like I said in a previous post, talk like this is really dangerous for a united Canada. The Liberals are playing with fire this time. Albertans will never put up with another National Energy Program. Never, never, never.

9. Just goes to show you how out of touch they are in eastern Canada. I hope when Klein retires, Albertans elect some guy with a rod up his arse, unwilling/unable to bend over for the ROC. Notice this asshole didn’t recommend dramatic tax cuts so people could actually afford to buy cars and fill ’em up. Invade Alberta and seize there resources. Spoken like a true separatist.

10. John, not a good strategy for a CPC win in Ontario. You don’t get elected by costing your citizens jobs.
    Further, pitting one region of the country against another is slimey. It’s what the Liberals do and why we aren’t amongst them.

11. Just see how “Canada’s [Ontario’s] National Newspaper” reports things: “Ontario fears ‘have-not’ status: In-the-red province eyes booming Alberta” (August 24, front page).
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050824/ALBERTA24/TPFront/TopStories
    Excerpts:
    ‘The release of the report [“Fairness in Confederation. Fiscal Imbalance: Driving Ontario to ‘Have Not’ Status”, Ontario Chamber of Commerce] comes just as there is growing unease in Ontario over the cash windfall Alberta is reaping from soaring world energy prices. But while government officials in Ontario would welcome a debate on the challenges Alberta’s overflowing coffers pose for Confederation, they are leery of sparking a potentially divisive debate.
    The Ontario officials say they have no formal action plan to pursue the matter. In fact, they are quietly hoping that someone else, namely Prime Minister Paul Martin, will raise a topic that would undoubtedly stir a backlash in Alberta.
    “It would have the least effect if it came from Ontario,” a senior government official said.
    Mr. McGuinty first raised the matter publicly this month during an impromptu exchange with reporters travelling with him by train for the premiers’ annual gathering in Banff, Alta.
    The topic — described by Mr. McGuinty as “the elephant in the room” — was not on the agenda during the three-day premiers meeting…
    Nonetheless, Alberta officials are bracing for the day when politicians from other provinces and Ottawa try to score political points in Central Canada by grumbling about its swelling coffers.
    “As we head into a federal election, I’m quite sure there will be comments made by other politicians to focus on Alberta,” said Ed Stelmach, the province’s minister of Intergovernmental Relations. Alberta is doing its part in Confederation, he said.
    “We can hold our head high in any of these discussions that come forward.”
    Alberta is enjoying the best of times because it happens to be sitting on vast oil deposits [southwest Ontario has a large auto industry because it happens to be sitting near Detroit–no-one ever mentions that]. Its surplus is expected to soar to $7-billion, four times higher than the province’s official figure, thanks to the money flowing in from crude and natural-gas royalties…
    …Dr. Lazar said that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to amend the very foundation of Confederation, which confers ownership of onshore resources to the provinces in which they reside.
    “It’s not politically on in any way, shape or form,” he said.
    The last time crude prices soared, back in 1980, the federal government introduced a mechanism, the infamous National Energy Program, to redistribute wealth from oil-rich Albertans to the rest of the county. The NEP was touted by the government of Pierre Trudeau at the time as good for federalism. But many Albertans have never forgiven Ottawa.”
    The Ontario greed just oozes crudely–up from the ground came a-bubblin’ envy–along with the idea that Alberta does not “deserve” its revenues.
    The story is disgraceful journalism, in that it takes a real story–a report on Ontario’s fiscal problems–but then focuses on Alberta’s supposedly ill-gotten gains, without any detailed reporting on the Ontario situation. In other words, Ontario’s problems simply serve as a hook for bashing Alberta.
    Decent journalism would have had two separate reports: the first on the Chamber of Commerce report and centring on the fiscal imbalance with the feds–which is what the report is about, damn it; the second on the Alberta angle.
    But that first story might have made Martin and the Liberals uncomfortable.
    Mark
    Ottawa

12. Is this fake news? Canada.com linky is not working in firefox. Is this from The Onion or something? Did this guy really say “I don’t give a damn about what Albertans think”? Wow.

13. “It’s not politically on in any way, shape or form,” he said.
    The last time crude prices soared, back in 1980, the federal government introduced a mechanism, the infamous National Energy Program, to redistribute wealth from oil-rich Albertans to the rest of the county. The NEP was touted by the government of Pierre Trudeau at the time as good for federalism. But many Albertans have never forgiven Ottawa.”
    Nuff said. Ain’t gonna happen.
    “The Ontario greed just oozes crudely–up from the ground came a-bubblin’ envy–along with the idea that Alberta does not “deserve” its revenues.”
    Give it a rest. You sound like a twit.
    Greed? Ontario pays in $23 Billion more than it gets back. Stupidity yes, greed no.
    I wrote that the $23 billion we pay is compensation to the rest of Canada for electing Liberals. Reducing that amount may or may not happen, but greed it is not.
    http://warwicknews.blogspot.com/2005/08/on-whats-wrong-with-confederation.html

14. Chill, everyone.
    Lauzon’s small beer, a self-styled “peace and social justice” imagineer with a limited audience.  His idea is screwy in the extreme, since it would be illegal for the Feds to “nationalize” the resource (and difficult to nationalize the industry — could you imagine the hue and cry from the foreign owners, such as the Yanks, the French, the Brits, and the mainland Chinese?)
    Under the Constitution, the provinces own and control their on-shore resources.  An attempt by the Feds to seize these resources would be tantamount to abrogating the Constitution itself, which for all practical purposes could mean the dissolution of the legal basis for the existence of Canada.
    I suspect they don’t want to go down that road…
    Not to mention, of course, that Federal excise taxes at the pump already make the Feds billions of dollars in additional revenue.  The last thing they’d want to do is nationalize for the purpose of lowering the price at the pump.  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

15. They can try to nationalize Alberta’s resources, but I think that would mean instant separation for Alberta. I couldn’t see them putting up with it. Which would mean an end to confederation as we know it and the criminals who hijacked it. Is the risk too great? I’d have to think so. However, it’s the liberals afterall and they’re too busy appeasing the left’s anti-Americanism. Not to mention too stupid to figure it out.
    In the meantime, hopefully, Klein won’t allow Alberta’s oil to be used in Martin’s little trade war. That’d neuter the criminal bastard.
    I still find it hard to believe that the dithering little gnat is actually threatening a trade war with the US.

16. Warwick – thanks for paying the compensation for electing idiots – however – it misses the point. Alberta does not recieve any of that compensation – we are expected to suffer (and pay)in silence.
    Then – add insult to injury – this Quebec egghead tells us he doesn’t “give a damn about Alberta” while we’ve been paying his bills for years. Furthermore Hydro Quebec was developed by the PROVINCE (not nation) of Quebec and the Canadian Government. It was never nationalized as it was never properly a private company.

17. The good professor made a big mistake: everyone knows Albertans don’t think.

18. If raiding Alberta’s resources on behalf of Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes meant that the Liberals and their business interests would remain in power, does anyone doubt that they would do it?

19. Alberta should form a strong partnership with Saskatchewan. Uranium will be the next hot thing
    Mark, Ottawa: Rafe Mair calls that newspaper “The Toronto Globe & Mail.” I agree, especially after that time the MakeBeliefs beat the Senators in an early round playoff game and it was front page news.

20. If it meant the collapse of Canada, yes, I do doubt that they’d do it.  Martin, whatever else you may think of him, doesn’t want to go down in history as the man who started the process of Confederation’s dissolution.
    Mind you, if his Earnscliffe buddies don’t start doing some better game-theory analyses, he might just unwittingly end up with that dubious historical distinction anyways.
    The Present is a vast chaotic system of unimaginable complexity.
    The Future is its unintended consequence.

21. I’m working on that Montreal Gazette link, btw. It did load for me originally.

22. Sheila, Hydro-Quebec is the result of the Quebec nationalization of hydro electricity in the 1960’s. Ottawa’s financial contribution to Hydro-Quebec is NIL.
    While admitting that the prof’s ideas are loopy to the extreme, Quebecers pay the lowest hydro rates in North America and not by a small margin either. Also, Hydro Quebec brings in a couple of billions to the general coffers every year. It might be through that optic that he made those remarks. Now, any chair of a university economics department that proposes that the federal government take action against any provincial resources should be kicked out by that university. The man’s an idiot.
    All Canadians profit from Alberta’s riches through transfer payments and I am glad that commonsensical Albertans are managing this important resource. I shudder to think where the money would be if Ottawa ran that ship.

23. Kate:
    Just TinyURL it!  😉

24. If Luzon ever ventires into Alberta to sell that crap I won’t be responsible for his safety. 😉
    But hey, keep it coming with the socialist salivating over stealing Alberta resources….this is the type of recruitment for the separatists they could never hope to acheive themselves….I love it!
    Self centered eastern socialists are their own worst enemies and the greatest recruiters for western separatism since PET and the NEP.

25. Maple Stump:
    Not just transfer payments, of course, but yes, that’s one way in which a great deal of oil wealth gets sent out of Alberta to the ROC.
    Lauzon’s off his rocker, or hasn’t thought his fatuous ideas through, or (most probably) both.

26. Someone should benignly point out to the windbag prof that Quebec Hydro’s massive profits are not included in the federal net transfer payment calculations and Quebec Hydro is opportunely exempted from kyoto.
    Snivel about the Great State of Quebec.

27. OK… did everyone get up this morning and …

    OK… did everyone get up this morning and decide to rattle Albertans?
    Earlier today I blogged about a story that spooked me: The hair on the back of my Albertan neck just stood up: Globe and Mail: Ontario fears ‘have-not’status
    Then Kate cove…

28. Having a “made in Canada” price would violate NAFTA as a subsidy. The resource belongs to the provinces so they can’t collect royalties.
    This likely leaves measures that are illegal, unconstitutional, and could result in the dissolution of Canada.

29. I have heard these sentiments from ‘serious’ politicians. A Liberal candidate in the last Alberta election came to my door and stressed that the power industry should be kept private. When I indicated that it is unfair to expect the power generation companies to be non-profit when oil companies are profit, she stated that the oil industry should be owned by the government and the profits shared by ‘the people’. This is a Liberal concept, not an eastern concept.

30. Quebec didn’t mind screwing the Newfies for years with that ridiculous Hydro Quebec deal. Thanks to Danny Williams and Stephen Harper, who suggested 100% revenue for Newfoundland/Labrador, east coasters will, over time, be less dependent on other parts of the country for money. In fact, this suggests that the have provinces will have to ship less money east for the self-described have-nots. There’s an election coming plus massive revenue from overtaxation. McGinty will get a huge influx of cash and the Librano$ will get some undecided voters on side once again.

31. This is from the current Economist web site:
    http://www.economist.com/countries/canada/profile.cfm?folder=Profile-Forecast
    “Canada should have little trouble balancing its books for the 2005/06 financial year. The country�s economic fundamentals remain relatively strong and high oil prices have spurred growth. The Economist Intelligence Unit predicts GDP to grow by 2.6% in 2005 and 2.7% in 2006.”
    Canada is a net energy exporter, and is doing quite well due to the current high price of oil. Don’t Canadian oil companies pay taxes on their profits? Why do some Canadians take such pleasure in putting their thumbs in America’s eyes?

32. Employment Insurance monies, Corporation Taxes, Gas Taxes will supply PMPM election monies to spread around and get some votes.
    Capitalists monies to buy socialists votes…nothing new there.

33. Please read again my comments at the end of the excerpts from the Globe story on Ontario’s suffering from the fiscal imbalance:
    “The Ontario greed just oozes crudely–up from the ground came a-bubblin’ envy–along with the idea that Alberta does not deserve its revenues.
    The story is disgraceful journalism, in that it takes a real story–a report on Ontario’s fiscal problems–but then focuses on Alberta’s supposedly ill-gotten gains, without any detailed reporting on the Ontario situation. In other words, Ontario’s problems simply serve as a hook for bashing Alberta.
    Decent journalism would have had two separate reports: the first on the Chamber of Commerce report and centring on the fiscal imbalance with the feds–which is what the report is about, damn it; the second on the Alberta angle.
    But that first story might have made Martin and the Liberals uncomfortable.”
    Mark
    Ottawa

34. All the pain and headache we endure with the 27% softwood tarrif comes about because the Libranos were too sloppy to fix our, favourites for friends, no-auction, timber sales system.
    The Americans have an open free competitive timber sales bidding system that is seen to be honest and fair.
    The leftist professor and his ravings, the anguish about Albertan Oil and Canadian energy tarrifs all come about because the Libscammers failed to fix the bad foundation laid with Canada’s fishy timber sales practices.
    Americans are sharp negotiators. If you leave a door open, they will drive everything through it they can.
    Damn Liberals anyway. Sloppy! 73s TG

35. “Further, pitting one region of the country against another is slimey.”
    Oh, horse puckey. If the Liberals are robbing the bank then it’s Ontarians who are driving the getaway vehicle. Pointing out that Ontario is predominantly occupied by dishonest asshats isn’t slimey, it’s simply the truth.

36. Before the liberal’s decided it was a great idea to get in a trade war with the US, let’s look at the facts.
    Fact-75-80% of our trade is with the US.
    Fact-40-50% of the American’s trade is with us.
    Who loses in a pissing match? Yes, that would be exporting Canadians, particularily out west, and Canadian consumers, nationwide.

37. Geoffrey, when have the Liberals ever let facts get in the way of a “good policy”? Especially when it’s an eastern-vote-buying one?

38. Geoffrey H.: The facts are less favourable than you think, by one half.
    “…U.S. exports of goods and services comprised roughly 12 percent of the United States’ GDP. (Exports to Canada accounted for roughly 20 percent of all US exports.)”
    http://www.buyusa.gov/canada/en/traderelationsusacanada.html
    Or 2.4 percent of US GDP. Lots of leverage.
    Mark
    Ottawa

39. I don’t give a damn about what Albertans think

    Kate over at SDA has brought to everyone’s attention a really questionable Professor in Montreal. If he’s looking for a civil war, he just may get it.

40. I think your getting a little too upset over something that one person that is in an unimportant position said.

41. Here’s whacked out theory #1 on the Montreal Prof:
    Perhaps the Grits have figured out they’re stuck in minority status forever – UNLESS . . .
    . . . they can remove two dozen Tory ridings from the country.
    As it is, they’d need 155 of 308. Without the ALB, they’d only need of 141 of 281. If they can manage to trick BC or SASK out of the picture (much tougher sells), they have a new majority already.
    Again, this is WHACKED OUT theory #1, but does anybody think the Grits aren’t sleazy enough to pull “addition by subtraction”?

42. that’s pretty whacked out!

43. Change of subject. Drudge is reporting that Moody’s has cut GM and Ford debt to junk status. Just broke on Bloomberg.com. It could not happen to two more deserving companies in my opinion. I hope they have to declare Capter 11, re-organize, get rid of the damn unions, and start building better, more fuel-efficient cars.

44. The problem at GM and Ford is defined benefit pensions.
    If they didn’t produce a single car, their employee costs would still be astounding. Their retired employees cost them more than the ones that are building the cars.
    This is the next corporate meltdown waiting to happen. Enron is small. This is big.
    Pension liabilities have not been accounted for properly and over the next few years a lot of old companies are going to suffer.

45. Warwick, I agree. If either of these companies goes under it will be much larger and dirtier than Enron. Notice that the new bankruptcy law in the US, which will start in earnest on October 17, will make it impossible for investors and individuals to walk away and let the bank take the loss on a mortgage. It isn’t exactly as simple as that but, in the end, that is the result. Not enough room to go into the details here. Small investors will have to pay off their debt for years on real estate they no longer own. Ditto for investors of GM and Ford shares that are worth nothing. Talk about a slave situation.
    According to the American Bankruptcy Institute over 400,000 people used Chapter 13 bankruptcy to stop foreclosure sales in 2004. This allowed many homeowners to get out of debt while keeping their residence. No longer gonna happen.
    Add to that the fact that these large corporations will be allowed to walk away from their pension obligations and a lot more people may be living under bridges in the near future.
    Not good. Everything goes in cycles and the transfer of wealth just keeps on ticking along seems like.

46. “Pension liabilities have not been accounted for properly”
    So do we blame the pensioners or the bean counters? I know I’d be having a really long talk with my accountants, maybe with my lawyer at my side.

47. Sheesh. My husband and I were just talking at dinner about recent air crashes, and then Air Canada’s labor problems, and how they can’t buy new planes (to avoid maintenance-issue-related crashes) because of this. I told him about the problems of the “dinosaur” or “legacy” airlines in the States, and specifically about Eastern Airlines (look it up in Wikipedia if you haven’t heard of it). “30 years ago, no one would have imagined an airline like that, poof, gone, and yet 10 years after deregulation [1978], they were effectively non-existent. It would be like saying, General Motors doesn’t exist anymore.” But then we both laughed and admitted that, these days, it’s not too hard to imagine GM going under, actually, as mired as they are in old-fashioned labor commitments. I doubt Buzz Hargrove would like to hear it, but his services may not be needed that much longer, unless the Honda, Toyota, etc. plants here are unionized too.

48. I’m starting to feel relieved that I dont’ have a pension plan.

49. Defined contribution is the norm now. It means (in the most simple terms) that you have your own account and you put in some money and your employer puts in some money to match. You get to pick the investments (to a point) and at the end, you live off it.
    They’re less generous and less risky for the employer because if your account doesn’t earn as much as a defined benefit plan, you’re SOL. It does mean that newer businesses won’t be going bankrupt (and paying out squat when they go bust) though so it does have its upside.
    The account belongs to the employee so there is no pooling. You know exactly where you are.

50. on the bright side, from the National Post tonight: http://tinyurl.com/df8gm
    “But sideswiping Canada’s oilpatch would also be playing with fire at home, putting a major industry at risk, warned Nancy Hughes Anthony, president of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce.
    “We have to be very careful not to make a bad situation worse.”
    Federal officials have quickly ruled out any limits on energy exports, suggesting it would hurt the domestic oilpatch.”