Via email;
Citizens Of Caledonia have confirmed today in a meeting of town’s poeple that Homes on Argyle St. And Sixth Line are being purchased by McGuinty. People must move out by the end of October. People are being offered above market value for their homes.
From the comments, a quote from Canadian Sentinel worth stealing (hence the change in title) – that the actions of Dalton McGuinty’s Liberal government amount to “ethnic cleansing with compensation”
Update – a few commentors have objected to the characterization of this as “ethnic cleansing”. Really? Let’s review the facts and the history of this conflict:
The home-owners being selected for buy out on the basis of race. And if they refuse – what? Will McGuinty enforce the law if they are assaulted or their property damaged by “Six Nations” aboriginals? He certainly hasn’t to date. The OPP have refused to enforce court orders, they have refused to enter the reserve to apprehend persons alleged to have attempted to murder their own officers. There have been reported cases of arson, theft, extortion, assault, and desctruction of property.
The message being sent by the Ontario government in appeasing these criminals is loud and clear – “either we buy you out, or they’ll burn you out.”
A reminder for those commentors who seem ignorant of the history of the illegal occupation of Caledonia, via Dust My Broom;
The continued occupation of a disputed tract of land in Caledonia by aboriginal protesters in the face of an earlier finding that they are in contempt of court means that rule of law has still not been restored in the community, says the judge who issued the order.
And in a democracy, when court orders are not obeyed, “the court is not hurt by it. It is destroyed by it. There will be a return to rule of law,” Mr. Justice T. David Marshall of the Ontario Superior Court said at a hearing yesterday as he ordered parties to return to court on July 24.
Update A statement has been released by Ontario PC leader John Tory;
“The rule of law must return in Caledonia on all fronts,” said Tory. “Dalton McGuinty must finally show the leadership necessary to bring an end to the continued lawlessness. That means no occupation of any land by anyone; no lawless behaviour by anyone; and no defiance of court orders by anyone.
At 3:19 a.m., July 6, Ti-guy posts:
[deleted]
editors note:
The person who posts under the name “Ti-Guy” is an individual who doesn’t have the balls to post his libelous statements under his own name and a valid email address.
He was so obsessed last night that he worked into the wee hours of the morning with no fewer than 6 different ip addresses to attempt to prove… I don’t know. That he should resume his medication, perhaps?
The software here allows me to mass delete any post with his name attached, which I shall. Don’t bother responding to his comments, as I will be removing them.
think if the situation was reversed and it was natives being forced out of their homes . . the CBC would be over the story like stink on dog doo-doo.
In this case, not a peep out of mother corp.
CBCpravda is now the spokeman for Ontario having no use for the Federal government.
Typical CBC response. -this story is omitted or censored because in the mothercorps policy the left side won.
The only way they would report it is if a daycare or midwife clinic had been affected.
Even Rex Murphy has been silent on this one. Bridges burnt, roads blocked, people assaulted and nary a word.
Where will he move the population of Toronto?
And where will he get the money?
The MSM has simply forgotten Caledonia, what
is really happening?
Vladuimir Lenin,
Please avoid using McWimpy, it gives my nom de plime a bad name. How about McGuilty?
I’ve just written to the CBC (Crap of the Bull Corporation) to ask why Caledonia has been off their map as of late (letters@cbc.ca)?
And I’ve sent a copy to Vince Carlin, the CBC Ombudsman who formerly worked at the CBC (Ombudsman@cbc.ca). No conflict of interest here, right?
I have asked what their reasons are for virtually ignoring this story, and have reminded them that their mandate is to provide balanced coverage of issues of importance to all Canadians. I’ve asked them why they have failed to uphold their mandate in this instance?
Where the heck is McGuilty? He’s in hiding and has no right to be. He’s got some ‘slaining to do.
Wow, what an ironic comparison coming from the same people who’ve taken up antisemitism as a new pet cause. Now compensating people above market rate to leave an unstable area that the government may not have had any business selling in the first place is ethnic cleansing? I’m sure the Jews in Germany and Tutsi in Rwanda would have preferred such a “horrific” fate.
How is this ridiculous comparison any different than those silly PETA ads comparing slaughterhouses to the holocaust? Frankly the government would have been much more cruel to not compensate the homeowners and simply attack the protesters – who do you think would have felt the brunt of the backlash?
Give your heads a shake.
in post above: Freuian slip, or what?
re McGuilty: “…he’s got some splaining to do.”
They aught to burn them to the ground it may be native land and give them that and no more.
Actually, the Jews in Germany, under the Haavara Agreement, WERE offered compensation to leave Germany. So dare we compare McLiar to Hitler? Sounds about right to me!
Cynapse,
It has not been proven in court whether the government had a right to sell the property. In fact, it looks as though the Indians are just practicing their dishonourable habit of Indian giving once again.
This is also an obvious case of extortion, which the government surrendered to. In their extortion gambit, the Indians also commited violent crimes, which went unpunished. This proves this government cannot uphold the law – a critical obligation for any government, in order to stay in power.
Now, on top of all this, this Liberal government is forcing rightfull property owners to sell. Regardless of paying above market value, this action poses grave concern for all Canadians – since we have no rights to property in the so-called charter.
So, perhaps you should ‘give your head a shake’ before commenting. Twit.
They’re being told to move based upon their race. And if they refuse – what? Will McGuinty enforce the law if they are assaulted or their property damaged by “Six Nations” aboriginals? He certainly hasn’t to date.
Just how is that different than ethnic cleansing – the message being sent loud and clear is “either we buy you out, or they’ll burn you out.”
Irwin, no one who uses terms like Indian Giver has the right to call anyone a twit. Hopefully you can come up with somethign better than derogatory comments. Furthermore, the same result could have been reached through the courts (albeit in 20 years or so) – what would your excuse be then? The bottom line is that the land may not have been the government’s to sell. The government would only be offering compensation if they thought the natives had a strong case. And the compensation is generous – when you pass fake dollar bills to stores etc and are caught you simply lose the money – no compensation given. If you actually believe in this “Christian fairness” that people of your ilk like to spout off about, then you need to have at least a passing interest in the idea that maybe that land should never have been sold to begin with.
Kate – when the Canadian government threatens to burn white Caledonians to death or execute them with a hammer and nails you have a point. For now it looks like the same type of displacement used in Africville, but for the different reasons. How legal and land-ownership issues become racial when Caledonian-supporters insist their anti-native venom is not (see your friend Irwin) is a mystery. Passing off an inconvenience as being equivalent to a wholesale slaughter is still odious.
Kate, regarding your update:
So legally compensated displacement + police failing to punish some non-government thugs = Ethnic cleansing?
That’s a pretty loose definition. Strange it never came up during the Africville saga. Shhhh, don’t tell Jesse Jackson!
Cynapse:
The folk doing the cleansing are the Warriors. The government is using taxpayers’ money to facilitate it. No, it’s not Srebrenica. But it is very subversive to the rule of law that a government should write a cheque to the victims of a land grab just so they don’t have to confront the cleansers.
Don’t give your head a shake. More brains may fall out.
Cynapse:
The folk doing the cleansing are the Warriors. The government is using taxpayers’ money to facilitate it. No, it’s not Srebrenica. But it is very subversive of the rule of law that a government should write a cheque to the victims of a land grab just so they don’t have to confront the cleansers.
Don’t give your head a shake. More brains may fall out.
Oh, great. I go to change a preposition and find the comment has already gone up.
Cynapse, if you see any other brains in your search, they’re mine.
Hey no problem Jim. In fact I think you should pursue your 0-death genocide argument in a court of law. After all, think of the payout that would result just by proving that physical displacements via government program and failure to prevent handful of assaults by thugs is effectively equivalent to the events at Bosnia! What a wonderful precedent that would set. In fact things would get very interesting after the precedent was set.
Being not nearly “brainy” enough to coordinate such a strategy (which surely won’t backfire in any conceivable way) I elect you to lead the charge. Please accept my sincerest apology for having ever spoken on behalf of previous “cleansings”
Sincerely,
Cynapse
Cynapse,
Your conclusions are merely the opinions of a weak mind. The fact that this dispute has not been tested in court, means exactly that. Otherwise, what is the point of law? It seems at least you agree with this, otherwise you wouldn’t have said, “…may not have been the governments to sell.” Furthermore, the cliche, ‘Indian giver’, has it’s historical basis, as most cliches do. And as long as the dispute isn’t resolved in court, it’s as legitimate a claim as the notion that it wasn’t the governments land to sell.
“The government would only be offering compensation if they thought the Indians had a strong case.”
Once again, your opinion and blind faith in a perverse goverment. Based on a proven cowardly government that does not uphold the law – it’s more believable that they’ve given in to violence and threats of violence – in other words extortion pays.
Ask yourself a question, had it been the Caledonians doing the burning, vandalism and physical violence, would the government have allowed the police to act?
“If you actually believe in this Christian fairness that people of your ilk like to spout off about…”
How did you come to that conclusion?
Your “weak mind” assessment is puzzling. There’s nothing particularly strong about sitting behind a keyboard and screaming for a pile of dead injuns at the first sign of provacation. After all, there’s no risk to you is there? I can’t think of anything weaker than automatically assuming some me-against-the-world conspiracy and begging for compensation. So far, everyone except the natives has enjoyed a windfall at the hands the Ontario taxpayer.
And you can believe what you want to believe about the government. As a member of the latest professional victim group (conservatives) you probably think the government is set out to punish your kind and reward natives not because they may have owned the land but because some had baseball bats and sticks (as pointed out on the Caledonia citizens websites).
The Caledonians were given surprising lattitude in their violent counter-demonstration. For the most part all the police did was try to keep the two groups of protesters apart. For not doing the rednecks dirty-work (ie blasting indians at will) you people basically turned on them. If the police carry out the desired violence they will be on the hook a la Ipperwash, and few of you will be showing up to protest in their defense. It’s a no win situation for the cops. They did what they could with the resources they had.
Cynapse, you’re standing on quicksand. The law was broken and no action was taken. Court order were not upheld and, rather than retribution, a reward was forthcoming. This really has nothing to do with “indians” and “rednecks”, but everything to do with a complete abdication of responsibility by the ON gov’t and the OPP. Period. Full stop.
steve d, if the area you live in became a dangerously high crime area, would you expect the government to buy your home at an inflated cost? With yours and my tax dollars? Would you be happy that the government than turned your home over to the criminals that incurred the situation in the first place? Would you be happy that the police took no action to protect your home so that none of the criminals got hurt? It would be an abject failure on all levels of the law-and-order systems of government and protection, yet here you post that the Caledonians should just be happy that they got some money for their property. Where do they go now? Where is “out of the line of fire?” Don’t you think the line will move again now that the precedent is set?
This is not rocket science. Justice has failed and all the arm-crossing and nose-twitching will not undo this.
Ham:
That may be your opinion, but the posters here aren’t phrasing it those terms, nor do they seem particularly concerned about the legal issue behind the whole standoff.
And it’s still a HUGE assumption that the natives are being compensated simply for using violence. What if they have a legal claim and Ontario now realizes that? Can any of you prove this is not the case? If not, then all of this e-rage is hinged on baseless assumption. However being oppressed by some “multicultural conspiracy” is more sexy than being collateral damage in the resolution of an old legal battle so ..
A couple more for you, Ham:
1) Is every protester a criminal?
2) What is YOUR idea of a just solution to this problem, if compensating everyone is insufficient? It’s all fine and good to snipe from the sidelines that your side wasn’t given enough favour, but what would you do if you had to implement a solutin that addressed BOTH sides?
Cynapapse,
Thanks for the effort. Your ad homnems, false accusations and astounding lack of logic continue to prove the weak mind description.
Although, I apparently have a spelling problem.
Irwin, your self-righteous and ironic attacks continue to amaze. Your quick conclusions wouldn’t even hold up in a kangaroo court (the government is folding because the natives used violence – no other reason?) and you most likely had your mind made up before you even entered the debate. Your distrust of the government has nothing to do with the facts, but I’m supposed to weigh this against actual documents and evidence of possible legal blunders.
Stop pretending you’re interested in any kind of discussion and paraphrase Mike Harris – You want the $*(# Indians out.
Yet again I shake my head at the failure of the left to recognize racism/ethnic cleansing when it happens. (If indeed the Ont. gov’t is trying to buy off the nonAboriginal residents)
Leftists will, knee-jerk fashion, grab onto anything and everything ever said by a conservative to scream “racist” or “that’s racism” against all logic and against fact. Yet here they are claiming there’s no racism whatsoever, after months of blatant state-practiced racism.
The thinking reader will see from this thread that the left has demonstrated its real beliefs regarding race. The left is apparently afflicted with the infection of racism and many leftists, failing to think for themselves, think that this part of leftist ideology is correct. That’s scary.
All of this…
In Canada.
I didn’t make this up.
Sentinel … who here is on the left? Failure to conform to every hysterical anti-multiculturalist rant does not make one a leftist.
Personally, I now think that the government should let the residents stay, and attribute anything that happens thereafter to the Caledonia Crusaders.
What is racist about land ownership? If it wansn’t yours to sell then the buyer can’t keep it. Black letter law. You may have to speak with Ham about this.
Sentinel – Was Africville racist?
Cynapse,
You are apparently unaware that ethnic cleansing is not the same as genocide.
The term was coined as a way to differentiate between levels of degree.
Genocide is death. Ethnic cleansing can be as little as displacement. Ethnic cleansing means to rid an area of people based on an identity factor in a way that does not qualify for the term genocide. Clearly moving people out of their homes is displacement and thus qualifies for the term ethnic cleansing – whether compensated for or not.
I do wish we could elevate the quality of troll around here. This lot is pathetic.
Cynapse,
You’re not a Leftist?
Please disclose your provincial & federal voting history.
Cynapse (Synapse is correct spelling):
Why is it that everyone demanding I explain what I mean by “leftist” (or specify who I mean) is a leftist? No regular folks question me on that. Sensitive, eh?
So you think I’m a “hysterical anti-multiculturalist” because I call a racist thing racist? That’s a bizarre, illogical and inane contention, typical of leftist “debating” strategy. If not, then you will have to make the case that opposing ethnic cleansing constitutes being “anti-multicultural”.
Who are the “Crusaders”? Are you making a racist remark there based on something common to a lot of the nonNatives in Caledonia? Careful.
Nobody said land ownership is racist.
And, yes, what happened in Africville was racist. But past racism doesn’t justify present racism. This is the problem leftists have: they don’t understand (or just don’t believe) that ALL racial discrimination is racist and wrong.
There’s no such thing as “righting past wrongs” by creating new wrongs.
Cynapse wrote: “If it wansn’t yours to sell then the buyer can’t keep it”.
I admit to being easily confused, but if the natives didn’t own the land that they sold to the government in the first place……how can the want/expect it ‘back’?
Are they offering to return the money paid to them, (with compound interest, of course), or does some other convoluted logic apply there also?
To all those people who wrote (short on time):
1) I know it’s spelled Synapse. It’s a play on words.
2) The displacement is based on ownership, not race. That’s why it’s not ethnic cleansing. Compare this to Rwanda: the Hutu wanted the Tutsi out because they were Tutsi and because the Hutu wanted to overthrow the social order. There was no actual land ownership dispute. You left out that “ethnic cleansing” also involves either killing or dispossession.
i) Buying someone out on a voluntary basis hardly counts.
ii) The whole crux of the conflict is whether the ownership is legal, which hasn’t been sorted out yet. The government is merely trying an end run on the process to avoid the problem dragging out
Moreover I don’t even know the ethnic background of the homeowners being reimbursed. Do you?
3) Disclose my voting history and province? What kind of garbage is that? Do you want me to take a paper bag test while you’re at it? Battle ideas, not demographics, sir.
I’m not arguing against these contradictory statements any longer
a) decide whether you think think is racial or land-based
b) “troll” and “leftist” will be treated as the deflections they are. If you just want amens go to a church
And Sentinel I do believe that all racism is wrong. What I’m unconvinced of is that this has to do with race and nothing else. If you doubt this ask yourself: would the natives be acting any differently if the land were owned by non-reserve natives living within the Canadian system? Doubtful – they would still want the land or at least the monetary reimbursement. This is why all of these we-are-under-seige arguments don’t work. Not everything simplifies down to neat little black and white summaries.
Cynapse, the “land claims” ARE racist. Here’s why.
The whole thing stems from alleged transactions made centuries ago before there was any established legal system, any way of securing legal title to land, etc. So there were some folks living here then. There were immigrants from Europe. They made an offer/offers which were accepted. Land was exchanged for whatever.
But NO ONE living today has anything at all to do with what happened to folks who lived centuries ago. “Natives” are claiming that land is theirs based on race/ancestry. Treaties, whatever… they cite the treaties as applying to them on the basis of race/ancestry. The treaties applied to persons living long ago. Why is it assumed that the treaties apply to persons living today just ’cause of their physical appearance and/or claimed ancestral heritage? Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way.
Why should I be made to suffer for something I didn’t do to anyone? Why should a specific group of people of a specific race/ancestral heritage who didn’t suffer from centuries-old, allegedly raw deals be able to occupy my legally acquired and paid for land so as to take it from me somehow?
Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. Racism is racism. You try to justify/rationalize it, but you fail.
Synapapse, Cynapse, or whatever,
You continue to attribute false statements to myself and others in order to win an argument your feeble mind can’t deliver on.
Apart from your false accusations, I fail to see how any of my comments are “self-righteous” or “ironic.”
I never said “the government is folding.”
I never mentioned Mike Harris.
I never mentioned anything about “dead injuns.”
“As a member of the latest professional victims group (Conservatives)…” I never mentioned that I was Conservative or that I feel victimized.
That combined with all the assorted illogical and uninformed comments, misguided conclusions berift of facts, ie: “It’s a no win situation for the cops. They did what they could with the resources they had.”
They were told by McGuinty to stand down and do nothing.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
You’ve managed to prove in one single thread that you are an idiot of the highest order. Quite an accomplishment, given some of the trolls that drop by here.
Oh, and by the way Cynapse – go practice somewhere else for awhile and when you think you’ve graduated to at least a semi-logical level in debating, then come back and have a go of it.
With all due respect, that is false. Ownership passes from father to son (generally – not being sexist here) and so the decendents of rightful owners can sue to get possession back. This is done routinely with land, heirlooms, art, etc.
Inuits cannot come to Caledonia and claim land just because they are the same colour. You are dealing with the actual group with whom the deal has been made – the Six Nations. Not even you dispute that fact.
Your paragraph starting “Why should I be made to suffer…” explains what Iv’e been trying to get out these posters all along. You don’t want to suffer. You don’t mind that other people may suffer or have been cheated, so long as your summer BBQ’s aren’t being disturbed. That’s what this is really about isn’t it?
As someone who stands to inherit land about 10km from a reserve, I have as much exposure to this to this problem as anyone (probably more than most of the people ranting on here), hence I reject your insinuations.
Irwin, all you do mention is variations on “you are not logical, you are a twit, you have a weak mind etc”. By putting words into your mouth through assumption about what you are trying to say (right or wrong) I’m actually adding substance to your rants. You should be thanking me for it. Now either offer something substantive to debate (like nearly everyone else is) or let’s call it day.
Also Irwin, when you calm down look up a blog by a police officer who pointed out that the police were limited in what they could do due to the number of people on each side vs the number of cops. You can argue with him, not me. I only read it and believe it because … oh you know … he’s actually involved and trained in conflict resolution?
On second thought, Irwin, don’t answer. Your posts are worthless and you have nothing to contribute but juvenile namecalling. I’ll continue with people who actually have something to say.
Congratulations to John Tory for his stance. He is showing the kind of leadership Ontarians and Canadians expect of their elected servants.
McGuinty and his Lieberals have blown it big, big, big time. They’re toast. Like their kissing cousins the federal Liebrano$$$.
“Ownership passes from father to son (generally – not being sexist here) and so the decendents of rightful owners can sue to get possession back. This is done routinely with land, heirlooms, art, etc.”
—That can be done if the father/son relationship can be proven to the satisfaction of the court.
“Inuits cannot come to Caledonia and claim land just because they are the same colour. You are dealing with the actual group with whom the deal has been made – the Six Nations. Not even you dispute that fact.”
—Cynapse, have you ever heard of fraud? The motivation of monetary gains? No one is immune to corruption. No one. Nothing’s stopping anyone from making a claim on the basis of race/ancestry. Hell, even I could claim to be “Native”, as one doesn’t even have to look like one to be declared by the state as a “Status Indian” or whatever. And how does the state even know for sure that someone’s Native? Do they do DNA analysis? I seriously doubt it.
Your paragraph starting “Why should I be made to suffer…” explains what Iv’e been trying to get out these posters all along. You don’t want to suffer. You don’t mind that other people may suffer or have been cheated, so long as your summer BBQ’s aren’t being disturbed. That’s what this is really about isn’t it?
—No. I will not be pushed around on the basis of my race. What if I say “no” to the state’s offer to purchase? Will they throw me in jail and take my property anyway, just ’cause I’m not Native? Besides, you fail to grasp that NO ONE ALIVE TODAY HAS SUFFERED FROM WHAT HAPPENED CENTURIES AGO, therefore, the other side hasn’t suffered. So why the hell should I? They didn’t suffer. I didn’t make anyone suffer. So leave me alone. Otherwise the state is being racist against me.
I see you’re going to inherit land near a reservation. Then you’ll, according to your beliefs that if someone of a different race demands you surrender your land due to their claiming it’s theirs for some reason undemonstrated, then go ahead and do as you’re told like a good little whatever you are. If you want to be victimized for your race, then that’s your problem. I will not let it happen to me.
Besides, land claims… or any other type of claim, for that matter… shouldn’t they only be made on the basis of legal deed/title documentation or specific familial descendance and not on the basis of race at all?
Were the treaties based on specific individuals/families or on race?
Questions to ponder. If they are based on race, then there’s a big, fat legal, ethical, moral problem.
Based only on race, then to claim entitlement centuries later on this basis… oh, no. I cannot accept that. It all happened way too long ago. All parties to all deals back then are long, long gone.
Am I responsible for any raw deal(s) just because I’m of European ancestry? Do “Natives” of today suffer from what happened centuries ago? Are they forbidden by law to participate equally in Canada as full citizens with exactly all the rights and freedoms enjoyed by everyone else? No. If they’re having trouble integrating, then the causes must be addressed. Billions in transfers annually, a 3000% increase as cited in a post above, and there’s no improvement at all. THAT is what must be looked into. Just giving away land isn’t going to address any of these fundamental problems. No one can demonstrate that it can.
These politically-incorrect questions need to be asked without intimidation or threats from anyone.
Sentinel I respectfully think you have a lot more faith in Tory’s abilities, and the attention spans of Ontarians than myself.
Heck I live fifteen minutes from Ipperwash and people still fail to see what modern liberalism can really do to them not for them, its pathetic.
Politicians just count on “dark memories” fading from the serf’s mind, and here in Ontario it works for them frequently.
I miss the days of “Get the F—— Indians out” followed by gunshots actually. It worked around here (Ipperwash) though it didn’t actually get them out totally their whining (locally) slowed to a trickle, and life returned to normal for the surrounding community not long after Dudley was shot.
To be honest a few bullets, and an Inquiry seem to be much cheaper and less disruptive to an entire community, than the million dollar lollipops (bribes) McGutless is handing out.
Now its please leave your home, heres a cheque.
What the hell?
Doesn’t building a honest life on a piece of land count for more than money to these liberal panty stains?
They can’t even respect the value of pride and peace that comes with owning a home or farm – raising a family or being part of a peacefull one.
They actually would rather just tinkle on that very concept.
Canadian Sentinel started the comments with a great point and Kate is right for defending it.
Warwick you have a great idea for painting lines on a hiway, very cost effective.
Well, Mugs, I would predict that Tory will be Premier soon. And I predict he’ll do a helluvalot better job than Dorky McGoofy has.
Left liberals/socialists lexicon of words includes: racist, as in, you are racist; you are a racist.
This is thrown out in an attempt to stifle/shut down/suppress dissent.
Thus, they are saying they own wisdom, don’t you know. The left liberals are the inheritors of “received wisdom”.
Of course, purveyors of “received wisdom” — and this is true of all religious and political philosophies — usually like to stiffle dissent because they are full of shit. …-
OPP Offers Tips for Hitchhiking
Josh Pringle
Thursday, July 6, 2006
Ontario Provincial Police are offering tips to hitchhikers this summer
cfra.com