Readers commenting on this post, “Letter To Terry Milewski” have raised some very good questions about the Imperial Plumbing cheque allegedly cashed by Conservative MP Gurmant Grewal.
If one looks at the area under the signature, what do you see?
That’s right. Nothing.
Now, contrast this with the portion of the cheque (issued from a different bank) for $1,600.00 from Mr. Mann to Nina Grewal, and deposited to the riding association;
The numbers stamped indicate the amount the cheque was made out for, certifying that funds were moved. “A Ziggen” pointed this out in the comments, and writes privately;
Individual branches do not typically clear their own cheques. In a transaction where a cheque was presented to a teller the teller would stamp the cheque as recieved and then put it in with the rest of the cheques destined for the Automated Clearing Settlement System (“ACSS”). The ACSS system (11 members in Canada mostly in the major institutions) allows for cheques to be cleared among various financial institutions. Typically the ACSS would review the cheque to ensure that a “stop payment” order had not been recieved and that there were sufficient funds to honor the cheque. If the “ACSS clearing house” had no problems with the cheque it would be processed and returend to the “client institution” to then be returned to the customer. In the event that the clearing instition had problems with the cheque it would be returned to the home bank for further info.
In other words the returned cheque should have the magnetic coding done by the bank that details the cheque amount in the lower right hand corner.
The only contingency that we could imagine where this might not happen is when a branch clears it’s own cheques in the instance where the client of the bank (i.e. Superior Plumbing”) writes a cheques that is settled in the same branch. In order to exclude this possibilty I suggest that you ask for member of the Khalsa Credit Union to look at their cheques that were written from the the Khalsa Credit Union to see whether this coding was done.
The Khalsa Credit Union has been in the news. (h/t to commentor Rob) Vancouver Sun Friday, October 01, 2004
THE PROVINCE – The eldest son of Air India bombing suspect Ripudaman Singh Malik has resigned as a director of the Khalsa Credit Union after government regulators alleged he had been in a conflict of interest and lied under oath.
And from Flight182.com (coverage of Air India trial);
Also arrested recently businessman Ripudaman Singh Malik who founded the Khalsa Credit Union and the Khalsa School in the Vancouver area. Malik faces charges of conspiracy and is to be tried along with Bagri and Reyat.
Profile of Ripudaman Singh Malik (apparently from 2001)
Malik is currently the President of a 16,000-member Vancouver based Khalsa Credit Union (KCU) that reportedly has assets worth $110 million. Canadian authorities have indicated that Malik manages two Khalsa educational institutions that receives financial assistance from the government of British Columbia. These educational institutions and the KCU have on many occasions been controversial due to the monetary assistance they have reportedly provided to the widow of Talvinder Singh Parmar.
News sources in Canada have reported that Malik has contributed financially to the Federal Liberal Party and has also attended fundraising functions for the Canadian Premier Jean Chretien. It is alleged that Malik has contacts with Ujjal Dosanjh, the Indo-Canadian Premier of British Columbia who was also the Attorney-General in British Columbia during the RCMP investigations. Sources in Canada have said that the RCMP conducted extensive raids in 1999 on KCU to scrutinize the activities of the International Sikh Youth Federation who held their meetings at the KCU- affiliated Khalsa school. Malik alongwith Ajaib Singh Bagri belong to the fundamentalist wing of the Sikh community in Canada and are reported to have waged a often violent clash with the more moderate functions for the control of lucrative gurudwaras.
In Canada, it seems everybody knows everybody.
I’m impressed- the politics of money (fund raising) up there is the ‘big leagues’- no doubt about it.
The problem with being a “black helicopter wingnut” in Canada, is that the damned things keep landing in our backyards….
😉
My apologies, for I have been following the fascinating Rove conspiracy for the past few days. (Oh, it is fascinating how the media twist everything, isn’t it?).
So, please fill me in. How, or in what way, does the Khalsa Credit Union fit into all of this? What is the significance of the cheque?
Where can I find a single unifying theory behind all of this? 🙂 Where are all the journalists (thank you SDA) and why am I asking all these questions? Arrrrggg.
Single Unifying Theory?
Not theory; Fact: Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$,
AKA: AdScam Martin’$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ regime.
I want every fact regarding not any cheque… but who, what, when, where why and how was this media report precipitated?
Like Darth ujjal said: “I want to to be sure what we have here is the REAL DEAL.”
Looks like Canada has it’s own little “RatherGate”(i.e, the media’s “story” IS the story)…
Hi Kate. Good work on this. (I love documents!) But in this case I suspect that the explanation for the missing numbers is simpler.
Those encoding numbers in the bottom corner are added by tellers when cheques are sent to data centers to be processed and sent on to other banks. This is an internal cheque–written on the Kalsa Credit Union and deposited into an account in the Kalsa Credit Union (the account number is on the back: AC 22927). At the bank that my wife worked at, internal cheques were not encoded. Presumably that was the case here.
If we knew who that account belonged to, we’d be a lot closer to the truth. (If it is an account belonging to Grewal, it would explain why there is no endorsement.)
The Knight is right: it’s our own Rathergate. Wasn’t Rather done in by a blogger? Will Milewski follow?
This time I’m holding my breath. Hmm… there’s gotta be a way of manipulating the MSM into doing what we want them to do… put a hundred dollar bill on a stick and, from behind, wave it in front of them so they charge towards Milewski…
rereading Ziggen’s post, I see that he in fact points out internal cheques are sometimes not encoded and asks for members of the credit union to check their cancelled _internal_ cheques to discover what their policy is. I would re-iterate this appeal.
I was just watching an interview with Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein on Tim Russert’s weekend show on CNBC. They were talkng about the dirty tricks employed by the Nixon White House.
It struck me how similar some these were to the Liberal dirty tricks against the Connservatives.
I have no doubt that many Liberals will justify their dirty tricks by saying that it is “for the good of Canada” since it will help to keep the “extreme right” from seizing control of the government just like Nixon’s guys boasted that they had succeeded in making sure that the anti-war Democrats did not win the ’72 election. Woodward even talked of a memo by Pat Buchanan boasting that the White House actions had ensured that the eminently breatable McGovern won the Democratic nomination rather than Muskie, who would’ve posed a greater threat to Nixon.
buckets,
What is not clear is if the cheque was drawn and “cashed/deposited” at the same branch. The letter to Terry seems to indicate the branch of deposit was not the branch of domicile. If this is true then there should be encoding.
If it is the same branch it might explain the lack of encoding, and it might explain the lack of endorsement. IF it is going into mr grewal’s account which is at that branch then no signature or endorsement required.
However there should be an account written on the back of the cheque to show which account it went into, perhaps thats the number 22927, unless thats a drivers license id. For an amount that size it might have required a supervisor initial and if cashed there should be the amount of disbursement written on the back.
The work was done by teller # 6 on that day. Given turnover this person probably isnt still there, but might be. They keep the same cash tills.
It is clear that the lack of MICR means it didnt go through the clearing system…three potential explainations
1) Internal cheques where account of credit and debit are both domiciled. No endorsement required, anyone can put cheques into someone elses account. IF it goes to another branch I believe it still gets MICR’d and goes through clearing system, especially business cheques.
2) Cheque was cashed at the branch of domicile of the cheque, that usally means there needs to be an endorsement and since Mr Grewal wasnt in town who would have done that? Also disbursement amount not included. The question really becomes in this scenario where is the cash?
3) Cheque isnt real.
Two cents, you’re right wrt Liberal rationalization of their dirty rotten scoundrellery towards the Conservatives. I’ve been listening to such limp-wristed excuses ever since those dehydrated weasel boogers came to power. Not to mention their justification for Adscam that they were “saving the country”.
And their denials of criminal wrongdoing recall Nixon’s famous line: “I am not a crook”, not that I’m convinced Nixon himself did anything wrong. Just for fun, let’s recall: “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” by Boolinda Stronach’s great old pal Slick Willy as well as his contention that a BJ doesn’t count as sexual relations and his claim that “is” has more than one definition. Not to mention Boolinda’s justifications for her traitorous, greedy, power-mad defection… oh, fo’ fecksake, they sooo sounded like something she was told to say, like she can’t think for herself or something?
I’m sure I’m not the only one who sees a pattern of stupid claims by politicians…
Thanks, Stephen. Yes, Holt’s letter says that there was another branch involved; but he says that on the basis of this cheque’s stamping. And so there should be something in this stamping that suggests that.
I suppose, we need to know more about the process.
There is a fourth possibility, I suppose. The image is the back and front from different cheques.
One other thing occurred to me…the teller number on the front is different from the teller number on the back, 3 and 6, respectively.
Question to the forum because I cant remeber any reason why the teller numbers would be different, there may be a legit explaination.
Hi, Stephen. Yes, my wife (an ex-banker) pointed that out to me just now. Presumably teller #3 posted it and #6 ‘paid’ it. At my wife’s bank this would be the same teller; she supposed that the credit union might do the process slightly differently.
(We need to know more about Credit Union policy–do they use the data center for inter-branch cheques? how do they ‘post’ and ‘pay’.)
Buckets
Yes when you look at all of the other cheques it is one teller. Seems odd for there to be two tellers…as you sad perhaps the cheque front and back arent the same cheque.
As well, look at the Nina grewal cheque…upper right hand corner you will see the supervisors initials. Nowhere to be found on this one….once again could be a policy difference…but banking is banking it is odd to see so many differences.
I cant imagine there being a lot of ex or current Khalsa credit union people on this blog :->
I looked at the unredacted copy I have – the cheque appears to be drawn on the same branch as it was posted in – 46410 Vancouver branch (as it says on the address).
Thanks, Kate. That is the number what I see on the ‘PAID’ stamp. So ‘46410’ is blacked out on the front.
But what is this that Holt is talking about another branch of the credit union being involved?
No idea. Though, I’ll add that the numbers shown are pretty grainy. The scans aren’t very high quality.
“buckets” of smear
“If we knew who that account belonged to, we’d be a lot closer to the truth. (If it is an account belonging to Grewal, it would explain why there is no endorsement.)”
This is you answer to getting to the truth? Something has smelled really bad about this whole affair since it started, AND BRO…
You know it ain’t JUST Good Mr. Iron Man.
At the end of the day, are you going to be one of the people censurable for getting to bottom of this matter in it’s entirety… or are you going to be just a hack-ass negative campaign artist(milewski)?
Cheques, cheques, cheques.
That is the only way we will get to the Truth to the events of the last 8 weeks…
I must be a liebral.
Kate. Perhaps he misread the number on the back; or maybe we are. (I take it he is looking at the same scans as we have.) Could that number on the back be misread? Maybe 46416? or 46400?
It strikes me that the explanation for this cheque, I think, very likely relates to whoever holds the account 22927 at that bank.
Can you confirm to me that that is _not_ the number of the account of imperial plumbing? (Since you have a scan of the unredacted cheque.)
That’s not the account number of Imperial Plumbing which unlike that on the back of the cheque – has 8 digits.
Also – the branch numbers can be found online. They all end in zero – 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 if memory serves.
Eight digits vs. five is interesting. But perhaps again this reflects internal practice–roughly analogous to leaving off area codes for local numbers.
(I looked for the branch numbers online but could not find them. Hats off to you for the good detective work.)
It seems to me that we are down to two possibilities. Either Grewal (or Grewals) have an account at that bank. Or we have a forgery.
OH… (I feel like a serial commentor now) – Holt writes 20 miles from where it “was prepared” – meaning Imperial Plumbing is 20 miles from the branch it was cashed at.
The addresses are here:
http://www.credit-union.com/locator/khalsa_bl.html
I don’t know Vancouver very well, but it wouldn’t make much sense for Grewal to have an account in Vancouver, when there’s a branch in Surrey.
Serial commenting. Sounds habit forming (If you don’t stop it you’ll go blind!)
On twenty miles between Imperial Plumbing in Surrey and Khalsa’s Vancouver office. It is interesting and strange. But there it is on the cheque. Perhaps he started the business in one part of the city and moved, but kept his banking there. But the cheque could have been ‘prepared’ anywhere that Brar had his chequebook. Somehow I feel that there’s a point that I’m missing.
No Dhahan check exists? (Sorry to keep mentioning this; if you’ll tell me that there isn’t one I’ll shut up. I just like to get the loose ends dealt with.)
Google maps makes it 25.4 km: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.675000,-106.475000&spn=0.041014,0.068248&t=k&hl=en
On those 8 digits.
Is it possible that what I’ve read as AC in AC22927 is in fact three digits? 011?
What are the first three digits of the account on the front. (Presumably the first numbers are the same for all accounts.)
First three digits are 100.
Also, looking back at the other two cheques desposted to Mr. Grewal, neither were to a Khalsa Credit Union.
I don’t have a Dahan cheque. I’m not sure there ever was one provided, though I’m not privy to any information beyond what I’ve provided here.
My interest here actually, isn’t in proving Grewal guilty or innocent – that’s pretty much been addressed by Mr. Holt.
The issue is the negliegence of a reporter who published this accusation, despite a great deal of evidence calling it into question. That we are even discussing the details of these cheques indicates that Terry Milewski abused his position at the CBC and should be called on to explain his actions.
Until that occurs, one cannot take any of his reporting at face value. We do not know what information he has arbitrarily chosen to omit to shape a story.
Kate are you sick tonight?
You seem to be puking in a “bucket” for some reason…
I feel a little sick too. I always knew they would somehow bring Nina Grewal into this. The liebrals have dragged yet another innocent person into this whole unobjetive affair. The only reason this has happened to Good Mr. Iron Man is so our government could deflect ALL attention away from HIS accusations. Now his wife is involved, not to my suprise.
All I know for certain is that most people don’t take lightly being unjustly accused(May I remind everyone of joe “SlimeMaster” volpe).
100 sounds pretty generic. Presumably the account whose owner we’d like to know is 10022927.
As far as Milewski goes, I’m not sure we can take much of any reporting at face value. Anyway, some of our discussions here have not gone terribly far. We’d surely not expect Milewski to report about missing encoding numbers even if he noticed them (which he may well not have).
Now that we have these documents, however, we don’t have to rely on his reporting. We can do our best to reconstruct events, which is a game of inches.
B.C driver’s license end in 7 numerical digits, from what I’ve seen, with an alpha prefix. Only having five unique numbers on a license allows for just 99999 drivers in BC.
I don’t think that the Holt letter clears Grewal, assuming there’s anything to clear Grewal of. Missing receipts do not have to mean anything illegal happened.
The news reports that I read said that five people were complaining about lacking receipts, and that the RCMP were investigating. Both Grewal and the CPC got rebuttal. Under any standard, this is news.
I was disapointed that the first CBC story did not discuss Liberal Party links and they are there. I complained about this on my blog.
But…
In the end, I’m still staring at a plumber’s cheque that appears valid, issued in 2004 to Grewal, which requires under law as of Jan 1, 2004, that either a receipt or at least an acknowlegment be issued.
If the cheque is a fake, well fine. Otherwise, it has Grewal’s name on it and Holt is saying there’s no explanation.
That doesn’t clear Grewal. Not yet. Of course, this could just be bad accounting!
Buckets is simply trying to establish the validity of the document. If valid, then the important questions which remain are
1. Who presented the cheque to the teller
2. Which account did it go into
Then I think we’d have this little story figured out.
I bank with a BC credit union (although I’m now in AB, no need to switch w/internet banking & machines, after all).
All credit unions across Canada are denoted with Bank #839 (BoM, for example, is 001, I believe). I NOW have 8 digits on my account, but originally had 7 until a merger occurred.
I can deposit a cheque in a machine in AB WITHOUT signature or account # on the back as the deposit is tracked by the card I use to access the machine.
If this was deposited by machine, it would have been in an envelope & opened later that day/next day at the branch of deposit and stamped by whoever opened it. If it was not my branch, it would go to the clearing house that night for clearing. If it WAS my branch… I guess they’d just hang onto it?
Why do I keep asking myself: Why haven’t the mainstream media done ANY investigation?? Why have the mainstream media continued to simply report the Lieberal Party Line???
Why do I keep asking myself such stupid questions????
Paul wrote.
“Why do I keep asking myself: Why haven’t the mainstream media done ANY investigation?? Why have the mainstream media continued to simply report the Lieberal Party Line???
Why do I keep asking myself such stupid questions????”
As for your first couple of questions, it is because reporters are human and they take path of least resistance. If you hand them a pre packaged story, narrative, proof etc and a couple of points check out then they will run it as is. Thats just the way it is, the myth of of woodward and berstein is exactly that, most stories dont take that much work or investigation.
The job of a scott reid, or whoever the mouth of UD is, is to package these stories, create them, simplify them so they look attractive to their chosen set of journalists. Journalists know this game and sometimes skeptical, but when you run into a yellow journalist, meaning someone who likes sensational stories, like TM then he is eager to get the scoop out there.
Wrong facts are collateral damage. Editors are supposed to be a little more objective, but a CBC editor? especially a BC CBC editor is hardly what I would call CPC neutral. There is a history here. The shame of it all, they dont care. IF the CBC cant be professional and neutral, except when it comes to using the word terror, then its usefuleness as a publically funded entity is nil.
As for your final question….they arent stupid questions. Now if you are muttering in the mirror to yourself then I would be worried :->
Re ATM deposit
There would be a stamp from the branch that the ATM deposit was made at.
The account of deposit may be the one listed, it should be “good mr iron man’s” and easy to check. Probably should have been verified before the darn story went out, but see my post above.
It could have been deposited by anyone, if Mr G has an account at KCU. Which he may well, if he is sikh, support the community doncha know. If not I doubt he would have an account there, buit once again my opinion doesnt count there are objective facts that could be checked out and verified.
If the acocunt is Mr G’s and the money went in then I guess he has to explain it. If it isnt his account then I guess the accuser has another explaination to give and hopefully to the RCMP for slander at a minimum. What charge is there for falsely accusing someone and misusing police resources?
My suspicion, if these are false charges you wont hear about it on CBC.
Going over this discussion thread, it’s starting to become clear to me that the issue has little to do with Mr. Grewal and pretty much everything to do with Terry Milewski and the CBC. THESE entities are on trial here. Why? It’s about competence, stupid. If the MSM and its reporters are so grossly incompetent yet go about defaming Mr. Grewal by casting sinister aspersion after sinister aspersion upon him, then we, the people, must question the relevance and impartiality of the CBC and Mr. Milewski.
Not a problem for me: I don’t trust the CBC or Milewski when it comes to politics. I believe they’re too far over on the left to be considered credible, as the left has NO credibility as far as I’m concerned.
As we have seen, there is no reason so far to believe there is any wrongdoing on the part of Mr. Grewal whatsoever. Until a smoking gun is provided, the questions should be asked of the accusers and the CBC and Milewski. Mr. Grewal is the man who could bring down the Liberal regime for criminal wrongdoing and there’s plenty of people out there who’ll stop at virtually nothing to prevent that from happening!
Dosanjh is a Sikh; Grewals are Hindus. Is this correct?
The background is filled with murders; beatings, even Dosanjh himself was beaten; crime of all kinds; the Air India bombing/murders, Canada’s largest mass killing; Dosanjh and Murphy taped offering Grewal a reward for his vote & etc.; CBC & other MSM covering up for the Librano$.
As Stephen McAllister says, “Mr. Grewal is the man who could bring down the Liberal regime for criminal wrongdoing…”.
In addition,
“there’s plenty of people out there who’ll stop at virtually nothing to prevent that from happening!”
Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Such much dark deeds for the light to shine on.However, more dark deeds to come in the days ahead.
Yikes !! .. don’t ever miss reading a blog for 24 hours … LOL
Really good work, lots and lots of unanswered questions. Bottom line, CBC should have never reported it, wasn’t investigated properly, and only intended to smear and sensationalize.
Everyone in the news biz knows there is massive fraud in Liberal fundraising in BC. Obviously we will never hear it from the CBC….and another curiosity on the dyslexic investigation by terry Milewski on the Grewal witch hunt: isn’t Milewski the CBC reporter that went a little bit too far into the peppergate or Shawinigate affair for �da boss’s � comfort?
Did he not spend a few years in the politically unpopular wilderness before mother corpse took him back under her wing? Do you suppose part of the bargain was that he drop this silliness about actually trying to find scandal with his liberal masters and become a good little CBC trained seal?
Appears that way to me.
Kate: This Grewal witch hunt-CBC “Rathergate” would be a natural for the Peter Warren show this weekend….if you want to run to him with it we will certainly phone in and back you up. What say Kayte…from Blogespere to alternate private radio (who have no great love for competing with tax subsidized CBC news mediocrity).
Warren will break this open if there is anything to it and the MSM won’t run with it.
Just send him the link to the page. I don’t have any inside information, so he can read everything about it here as easily as me trying to call it in. He’s probably better advised to talk to Jim Holt.
I’d like to point out somethign else not mentioned – there are many reasons people, including politicians, receive cheques.
To go over this one inch by inch, and decide there is an explanation for the lack of security stamps, endorsement – does not validate the accusation that it was a campaign contribution under the Elections Canada Act.
Maz2: you asked: “Dosanjh is a Sikh; Grewals are Hindus. Is this correct?”
I’m not totally certain wrt Mr. Dosanjh, but the Grewals are most certainly Punjabi, as I’ve garnered over the years from reading about Gurmant. I like Gurmant; he’s a nice, smart fellow just trying to do what’s right for his country who is unfairly being maligned by those potheaded moony cattle in the em-ess-em.
And it’s my great pleasure to stick it to the ever-revilable left. They’ve tortured us ordinary folk long enough. It’s high time we took back our dignity and said, “NO MORE!”
This is the response I got regarding an enquiry about the cheque in question.
“We understand with all certainty, that neither Gurmant nor Nina have an account at either Khalsa Credit Union neither in Surrey nor at the branch in Ujjal Dosanjh�s riding.”
K:”Just send him the link to the page.
He’s probably better advised to talk to Jim Holt.”
WLM: Done
K:” I’d like to point out somethign else not mentioned – there are many reasons people, including politicians, receive cheques.
WLM: yes and some politicians and party supporters prefer brown envelopes with cash…this saves the embarassment of having CBC go over insignificant anomolies of the checks and written record of campaign financing….but the CBC seems slow to go after these politicians and party hacks.
K: “To go over this one inch by inch, and decide there is an explanation for the lack of security stamps, endorsement – does not validate the accusation that it was a campaign contribution under the Elections Canada Act”
WLM: True. and the content of the Grewal tapes and the 4 hrs of undisputed self incrimination from top government executuves seems to be far too obvious for the CBC’s scrutiny….even though if the rolls were reversed and it was Grewal and Harper conspirering to corrupt a government official with office and bribery, they would be crusading for the obvious Criminal charges to be laid…..but instead we see the MP that the government officials conspired to corrupt being investigated for a string of vacuous anomolies.
Over to you Terry…got an explanation as to the CBC’s investigative priority dyslexia??
As Kate says, it’s not Grewal, it’s Terry Milewski and the CBC who are supposed to be on trial here.
Except now we can add Rosemary Thmpson of CTV’s Question Period, Robert Russo of Canadian Press and Brian Lahgi of the Globe and Pail to the list.
All three of them showed their utter lack of journalistic credibilty on today’s Question Period in which they trashed Grewal for creating another problem for the CPC (one of them called it “three strikes and you’re out”). Not one seemed to be aware that the allegations have been challenged extensively. All seemed to take at face value the CBC version. No one even suggested that there might be another side to the story.
Should we be surprised that three supposedly leading lights of the MSM have not done their homework and are willing to libel someone without doing their own research? Nope. That’s the way it is in Canadian journalism today.
If Adam Radwanski is asking, I don’t hate Canada. I just want it to be a better place. And I’d like just one MSM journalist to show some integrity.
When will a rightious journalist BUST a currently “unseen” angle of this infuriating spectacle(I know who I’m betting on)? How do the liebrals keep ketting away with this? Where are the anti-Murphy websites and or media reports?
;(
Where are the anti-Ujjal websites and or media reports. Why does Good Mr. Iron Man get all of this K-rap song… as Darth ujjal(the man with the most to answer for regarding the tapes, in my opinion) gets 0.00 media attention while one-tier healtcare falls under his leadership?
How could this story be ANYWHERE NEAR wide-spread-media-coverage-worthy, if he was someone other backbence MP? Did Inky Mark ever have finance irregularites? EVER?
I second the above words of Knight:
Yeah! Let the VLWC answer those questions!
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