Michael McCullough has a post detailing the potential consequences should a plot to bomb the Holland tunnel come to fruition. They’re not insignificant;
The Democrats and the media are already dismissing the notion that flooding tunnels would only fill the tunnels with water and cause no additional damage. A quick flooding of water into the tunnel could very well cause it to expel water from both ends.
It would also weaken the soil surrounding the tunnel entrances, possibly causing the collapse of buildings. Not only that, but the collapse of only the Holland Tunnel would cause flooding throughout much of lower Manhattan’s subway system and underground tunnels carrying electrical and communication lines.
He includes maps and historical examples. Check it out.
Just so. Remember when, a few years ago, some dredge operator got off his coordinates, and punched a hole into an under-river tunnel in Chicago? The resulting flood inundated the basements of most of the office towers in Chigago, which are all connected by underground utility corridors. Not only did that disrupt the utility services on which the operation of society’s organizations depend, it destroyed non-trivial amounts of records and archives, stored in basements.
Not only that, I suspect those citizens who were travelling through the tunnels at the time of innundation would be less than impressed. (Well of course they wouldn’t be impressed, Vitruvius, they would be dead.)
You know it’s a slow day when you have to critique your own posts. lol
Maybe New Yorkers should start carrying a paddle, life jacket?
Not necessarily, Cheri. It could be that critiquing your own posts is a form of wit known as self-deprecation that is used as a rhetorical device to further one’s dialectic position. Not that I’d know, of course 😉
Alas, paddles and life jackets are less than sufficient when one is in a flooding tunnel with less than, how can I put this, sufficient head room. Perhaps New Yorkers should all carry SCUBA (self contained underwater breathing apparatus).
I felt slightly guilty making a joke about the paddle, but that’s what terrorists want, is for everyone to live in fear and angst.
Far too much seriousness most days, most topics. Self-deprecating humour is the best kind, shows you’re human. A quality many lack. Thinking aloud, talking to one’s self etc., all good as long as the dog/cat doesn’t answer you.
I don’t buy into the “terrorists want us to live in fear” idea.
I think they just want us dead, in general.
I agree with Kate. There’s no margin for the enemy terrorists in just getting us to live in fear, we’re still in their way. What they want is for us to submit to their absolute control, or not exist. Otherwise they would be just another common garden-variety criminal gang.
The best option is to take them out without getting taken out yourself. The next best option is to take out many of them at the time they take out one of us, should they be so successful.
But let’s be careful. Let’s keep in mind that “enemy terrorists” is a well defined category. There has to be cause to lump an individual into that category. In particular, in the case of the matter at hand, it is not the case that Muslims qualify for fatal opprobrium per se. Just ask any Muslim, or anyone else, who is persecuted by others of their own faith simply because they have a non-extremist interpretation of their faith’s coda.
That’s just crazy talk. Next you’ll tell me that 19 guys with box cutters can destroy two of the biggest buildings in the world.
Oh, right, never mind.
Interesting that when faced with the plot of several truckloads of explosives activated in the Holland Tunnel, the left just shruggs it’s collective shoulders and speculate the result would have been no big deal. It’s almost as if they lament that we didn’t get to see the real result.
As a reformed Clintonian Democrat, every action and word of the Democrats since 9/11 has convinced me they would rather see my throat slit or see me mandated to hop on a rug 5 times a day, than see me live as a free man in the western world. I’m convinced they do not really believe in Democracy, Freedom, or Human Rights. It’s amazing to me the Left still retains so much political power in western society.
Death is certainly the ultimate goal. And perhaps fear is understated. But Al Qaeda seemed to scare the hell out of the Spanish electorate in March 2004. And what were the televised grotesque ‘beheadings’ designed to do?
And if they want us to submit to their absolute control how better than through fear and intimidation, economic hardship and pitting one country against another?
Agreed, Cheri, it is a matter of whether or not one is considering the intermediate goal, or the ultimate goal. And, Tom, I think that “mandated to hop on a rug” is brilliant phrasing. I appreciate that. And now, as the sun sets on the Red Ensign flying in my front yard, it’s time for me to call it a day. Thanks for putting up with me, folks.
water.
beware water.
it is ubiquitous.
nothing in heaven and earth has ever confined freezing water to its original volume. it WILL have its 10% increase thanks to the crystallizing of the ice. and then next time the water enters it’s 10 % more. and again and again.
water will smash anything by rust, rot, or ice.
it needs only a razor thin fracture and sufficient pressure to overcome surface tension.
titanic sunk because of a fracture a few inches across when the rivets popped and . . . all that water.
it always finds its way to all quarters. it brings disease and vermin, bubbles up and pours down. and THIS is what the al queda tried to bring on.
there. dramatic enough ??? !!!
Dihydrogen Monoxide.
be afraid. be very afraid
Scared yet?
Ready to trade more of your freedom for security?
See, this crap really DOES work.
If these “internet threats” result in further truncation of free society into a police security state on constant alert….the terrorists win without even touching off a round.
OK. I’m going to call bullshit.
Since 911 I’ve travelled to Australia, Brazil and too many US destinations to remember, by both air and road.
I’ve seen absolutely no evidence of anyone’s “freedom” being compromised.
What I do see more and more, however, is an unfortunate tendency to confuse “freedom” with “convenience”.
Being asked questions at the border, carrying a passport, removing your shoes at an airport, having your vehicle’s undercarriage checked for devices – all of which I’ve experienced – is hardly a “truncation of a free society”.
It’s inconvenient.
Learn the difference, and the discussions here will be a lot more productive.
And for those who foolishly scoff, I advise you read Mitch’s comment as many times as it takes to sink in.
Hi there, have to agree with Kate. Recently went to Alaska, was thourghly checked by the Americans and when returning by the Canadians. I think we had all better get used to filling out forms and waiting in lines. Inconvenient yes but when expanding to gather new people for the job they is training involved. I know standing in line is not my favoriot thing but I think if we let these people do there job and keep happy about what we are as a freedom society it will work out in the end. By the way when I was in the room on the American side I seen them detain a 12 year old girl that was dressed like she was 20 with no parents permission or leagal documents for her to travel with out escort and two people claiming to be American citzens with out any passport, leagal documents to get them in. All were complaining about missing flight times. On the Canadian side, the line I was in had the TRAINIE. Complain we did but looking back on it there were 2 couples with 5 children and 1 single mother with 5 children, so maybe our line was slow, all I know I was the last person in the line and she was the last person working at a booth and she was still happy. When walking between the yellow lines to pick up my luggage and fish I noticed that they had a black lab sitting between two more airport police. Picking up the luggage then thru another set of lines, presenting your declared items a 2nd time, thank you we all passed but as things took place there were a few things that the trainies missed and the people selected went to a different room for luggage search. Went to Mexico in Jan 2005, what a year and half makes. Merle
Hi there, have to agree with Kate. Recently went to Alaska, was thourghly checked by the Americans and when returning by the Canadians. I think we had all better get used to filling out forms and waiting in lines. Inconvenient yes but when expanding to gather new people for the job they is training involved. I know standing in line is not my favoriot thing but I think if we let these people do there job and keep happy about what we are as a freedom society it will work out in the end. By the way when I was in the room on the American side I seen them detain a 12 year old girl that was dressed like she was 20 with no parents permission or leagal documents for her to travel with out escort and two people claiming to be American citzens with out any passport, leagal documents to get them in. All were complaining about missing flight times. On the Canadian side, the line I was in had the TRAINIE. Complain we did but looking back on it there were 2 couples with 5 children and 1 single mother with 5 children, so maybe our line was slow, all I know I was the last person in the line and she was the last person working at a booth and she was still happy. When walking between the yellow lines to pick up my luggage and fish I noticed that they had a black lab sitting between two more airport police. Picking up the luggage then thru another set of lines, presenting your declared items a 2nd time, thank you we all passed but as things took place there were a few things that the trainies missed and the people selected went to a different room for luggage search. Went to Mexico in Jan 2005, what a year and half makes. Merle
…yes Kate, an inconvenience, but I have to add “for now”…
Don’t get me wrong, I agree we need to do something with national security, but without sounding like a tinhat despot – is there a place/line where we (as joe citizen) have the right to say that “national security” has become “national intrusion” or “national sellout” and not fear retribution?
I’ve also had the privilege of undoing my belt, take my shoes off, spin around spread eagle – all the while trying to keep an eye on my laptop and carry on baggage while going through the crowded security line.
But hey, a small price.
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Database for sale anyone?
Adjusting my tin foil hat – I can see a day where our personal freedoms are compromised either by political or economic lust done in the name of “national security” – done via database compromises.
Heck you don’t have to look too far into the future, personal information compromise already happened here in Alberta.
Impark, that big privately owned parking lot company, has access to Albertan’s driver licence information – no questions asked. These clowns were phoning people’s homes at 3am demanding payment for overdue parking ticket’s from their lots.
Umm, so where’d did Impark manage to match personal phone numbers and addresses to licence plates again? Oh yeah, a government database.
So what stops left leaning political persuasions, retail giants or organized crime from getting access to national security information?
Here’s an example, remember last summer a major credit card processing place with Visa and Master Card ‘played’ with not-their-own database to form a profile shopper, and how it got out? Sure it wasn’t a national security database, but an example.
So I reiterate – the temptation and lust of using the power that comes by having informational knowledge is enormous.
And given man’s track record dealing with temptations, well…
Sadly the inevitable evolution of low morals and information compromise a ‘national security’ database might become more dangerous than the bombers themselves.
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RFID (radio frequency ID)tags.
Combine RFID with an IPv6 (Internet Protocol version 6)and hello to your new SIN (SSN) number and good bye credit cards and cash?
All fine and dandy till you get a 3am phone call from CSIS or FBI asking about your recent whoopie cushion purchase at Walmart – seems to fit their national security profile for psychotic farters…
But hey, that phone call was just an inconvience…
/tinhat off.
I suspect the practical worst case scenario for the tunnel is collapse, is where the roof falls in, and thenthe mud fills the hole. Tunnels slowly-ish fills with water. Remember it’s fairly hard to tamp a vehicle bomb like that so that most the explosive power doesn’t dissipate down the air of the tunnel.
That’s STILL pretty bad though, the traffic delays and stuff on alternate routes ARE ALREADY over capacity. Until it’s fixed or replaced.
Never mind if you’re inthe tunnel at the time. That would suck.
impark is in alberta too?
they do that trick here in ontariario as well. got lots of folks all riled up in torontoland.
apparently they were calling some who had already paid the fines and some who were in the process of contesting them. and then there was the issue the ‘tickets’ very closely resembled the real thing. THEY GOT NO LEGAL WEIGHT.
all that impark can do is wreck your credit rating if you dont pay the triple rate compared to avg parking fine.
the issue of databases has been SETTLED.
j edgar hoover showed us how good they work. he had 10s of thousands of dossiers on anyone who started to show signs of public profile.
keep tabs on their habits aaaaand at the right time give them the run down on what the fbi has on them to, you know, make sure they kow tow. toe the line. dont make waves. and especially dont make any noise about knocking hoover out of the top job in the agency.
hoover the cross dresser.
we DONT need surveillance on ourselves.
george orwell also covered the topic.
Rob, I think you missed my point.
It wasn’t about whether or not Impart has Legal Weight or if the database issue was SETTLED or not, but how’d it get into their hands in the first place.
max7:
by settled I mean the danger however it is accomplished, via whatever legislative/administrative/serepticious means, we DO NOT want self surveillance. it WILL be used to self serving ends by ‘da man’ at some point.
here in ontariario access to MOT records was confined to authorized individuals or groups. which in the mike harris newspeak meant whoever could afford to ante up the fees into the coffers of the sell-out specialists the conservatists, having an orgasm over the pace at which privatisation was happening.
They looked like urban terrorists to me not too well organized. We have our own Red Neck Terroists in Alberta and Sask. Both white one shot 4 RCMP the other shot 2. Most of our murders of whites are done by whites not Natives. Natives seem to kill each other more and that’s a shame. The 2 RCMP recently shot in Sask were shot in the head. They both may die. There are a lot of Red Neck WASPS in rural SAsk and Alberta. These are worse than any Muslim but they are white and harder to see.
To o4ua, what is the meaning of Red Nec WASPS? Merle