Michael Yon: If the officer is pointing his pistol at someone, he is one click away from going lethal. There is no in between.
Michael Yon: If the officer is pointing his pistol at someone, he is one click away from going lethal. There is no in between.
” and who continues to demand ballistic attention.”
Great line.
It’s called “centre-of-mass”. Everyone who has ever been taught to shoot, be they military, police or hunter, learns to aim at the centre-of-mass to maximize the odds of hitting the target. In humans, the “centre-of-mass” tends to include the vital organs. Shooting from the hip, as they do in the movies. just means you’re wasting ammunition.
It’s a good explanatory article which guarantees that it won’t be read by anyone who would make the ridiculous proposal of “shoot to wound” in the first place.
Shooting to wound is shooting to miss. Centre of the visible mass is the best chance of a hit — with a pistol two to the mediastinum/chest area followed by one between the eyes if the attack continues.
Good article by Michael Yon,but I doubt it would have much traction with the crowd that is raised on Hollywood and thinks that represents real life.
If I see another Hollywood hero, or villain holding his pistol on the side,I may get old betsy out and shoot the screen!
And is anyone ever killed in Hollywood without a final shot to the head? Not that I’ve seen lately.Hollywood believes villains are as tough as grizzly bears,and if they’re the star villain, almost impossible to bring down.
I’ll take the word of the grand jury, who saw and heard all the evidence, over that of the race baiters and msm lunatics who didn’t, the cop was in the right.
End of this f***ing story.
I have no issue with a cop defending himself against lethal attack, If there is a gun being pointed at a cop draw first and empty the clip into the target until it is disabled with my blessing.
What I have a problem with is this new seeming lack of judgement in pulling a gun and firing it in situations where there is adequate doubt of lethal attack or even a deadly weapon – like the way kids are being shot left and right for playing with a squirt gun or BB gun.
The majority of modern police response to unsubstantiated 911 calls is rife with excessive force and poor situational judgement – they are usually too amped up on militarized tactics and indoctrinated paranoia to function rationally or civilly – secondly, police accountability is at an all time low.
We are paying for civilian peace officers not a military occupation force.
Wilson should have and could have run the idiot brown over with the cruiser
Occam, you say it well!
and most, if not all, lefties will not get Yon’s article.
The “why didn’t the cop just wing the guy” question is always only asked by idiots or liars. Idiots assume the pistol is some kind of all-destroying weapon and cops are masters of the martial arts that can hit any body part on demand. Liars seek to smear the cops by implying evil intent where there is none.
Michael Yon is not lying about people being shot and still fighting. As I’ve related many times, I personally know many gunshot survivors from my PT work in some sleazier areas of New York, two of whom -ran- after being shot multiple times with 9mm pistols. With one exception they were ratbags and deserved being shot. Only problem was they were getting shot by other, bigger ratbags.
Pistols are CRAP weapons. The only use of a pistol is to keep you alive until you can get to a real gun. Meaning .30 caliber or larger, none of this .223 poodle shooter nonsense.
Next time you hear that “why didn’t he wing him?” question you answer “Only fools and liars ask that, which are you?” Cuts right to the chase, pretty much.
Occam,
Have you seen the “BB” guns that the kids who get shot are carrying? They are Airsoft guns designed to look exactly like real guns. The kid that was most recently killed had a Colt 1911 45 calibre replica with the orange barrel tip painted black (link below if you want to see how real they look). How exactly is an officer supposed to know that this kid doesn’t have a real gun? Let the kid shoot first? If there weren’t kids shooting people the police might not have to take the threat seriously but gang members are having twelve year olds carry their firearms for them, to avoid felony weapons busts.
http://www.airsplat.com/Items/GP-PS-1911-CO2.htm
I agree with most of what you say. However look at a recent case where a big ‘kid’ had removed the bright orange muzzle cap from his “BB gun” and was reported by a citizen as pulling a gun in and out of his pants and brandishing it about at a playground. The cops find the kid, tell him to raise his hands, and the kid goes for the gun in his waistband. The cop has a split second to check if it’s got a bright orange plug, and then shoots the punk. That’s much different from cops in Toronto emptying their guns into a ‘doped up’ kid with a knife on a streetcar. Every case has to be evaluated on it’s own facts. That’s why police must have review boards when people get killed.
The militarization of general police forces is a serious mistake. It creates an “us vs them” mentality and there is a tendency to ‘bring out all the toys’ for any incident to justify the perceived ‘need’ for such force all the time. They’re the ones who wear their black ERT gear all the time, even at the office, while everyone else wears normal duty uniform with a vest and utility belt when they go out of the detachment. The ‘black-caps’ are also the ones who are more likely to abuse their authority, because they know they can get away with it. They’re the Praetorian Guard.
We’ve seen the videos from the Toronto streetcar incident, and heard of many others where the “officer” unloads his clip. He was trained to do so; but not in the way suggested by this Yon fellow…
“The best way to stop that threat is to put bullets in the largest possible part of the body (typically, the upper torso). If that fails to stop the threat, you then rely on your “failure drill” training and move to the head, and if that fails, the pelvis. You “work the problem” by moving your shots from the torso to the head and pelvis.”
Yon suggests that there is a shot assessment. This is a lie. Remember law enforcement training is now called “criminal justice” (a phrase that should make your skin crawl), and is the most successfully penetrated target of the radical left.
I question the character of Yon and his motives. While I am not familiar with his work I sense a pro troops anti government slant. I sense unbridled ego. I sense fascism. His willing conflation of military combat and police work belies any notion of public service or even basic citizenship for that matter.
The apparent militarization of law enforcement and it’s unload the clip mentality is nothing to celebrate. Screw this Yon guy, his conflated rationalization, and his vainglorious blood-lust. The real reason law enforcement officers empty the clip is to defend the coffers of the state after they have allegedly defended themselves. Remember, in Toronto they TASED the dead.
No…whatever said “While I am not familiar with his work I sense a pro troops anti government slant. I sense unbridled ego. I sense fascism.”
I sense you are both a fool AND a liar.
The Toronto shooting of Sammy Yatim appears to have been an -execution-. Nine measured shots, carefully aimed, at a kid who was going nowhere on an empty street car. I saw the video, I heard those shots, the cop shot that kid very deliberately. Then one of his fellow officers tazed the mortally wounded kid, probably in an effort to make it look like he was still resisting despite taking eight carefully aimed rounds of .40 S&W.
The cop Forcillo is charged with attempted murder at the moment.
This is not a situation where he “emptied the magazine”, this is according to the Crown a case of attempted murder.
Yes, the militarization of police IS a disgrace and a very dangerous situation, yes the shooting of Sammy Yatim was also a disgrace, no Michael Yon is not wrong.
Because disgrace or no, please note that Sammy Yatim died in hospital, not at the scene. This with eight rounds of hollow point .40 S&W in him, six of which hit him when he was lying down. I don’t know where the rounds struck as that info is not easily searchable, but I do know from Google that the cop managed to MISS the kid at least once. Inside a street car. Despite taking his sweet time aiming and firing.
Which pretty much proves Michael Yon’s and my point about pistols being feeble weapons, which need to be pointed at the largest mass available if the target is trying to kill you. Also my point about cops not being able to shoot worth cr@p.
See, the problem is that even Forcillo may well have been perfectly justified in firing those first three rounds. Yatim could easily have maimed or even killed Forcillo with the dorky little knife he had, were he sufficiently high on crack or speed. People on drugs do not feel pain. At all. Yatim was certainly behaving like he was high. If Yatim ignored shouted instructions and made a lunge, Forcillo would most certainly have shot him. Shot him in the center of mass, until he fell down.
Proper practice drill is two to the body, one to the head. That’s how you do it. Because that’s how it works. If the guy is on his feet you’re going to die. That’s why you have your gun out and that’s why you’re shooting him. Because he’s trying to kill you. And all you have is a feeble little popgun that can’t stop him unless you get him in the heart, the spine or the brain. He may well die -later-, but that will be after he’s finished maiming/killing you.
Since you are clearly an ignorant English Major, you should know that the human spinal cord is the size of a pencil, the heart is roughly the size of your fist, and the brain is the size of a softball. These are very, very small targets.
Where Forcillo crossed over to Evil was those six rounds fired at Yatim as he lay prone on the floor. Because that’s not self defense anymore. Guy is lying down, threat is over, you win. But Forcillo kept shooting. He’s specifically trained not to do that. He did it anyway. That was the attempted murder part.
What you sense as “fascism” is actually Reality. There is a Real World out here, I suggest you pull your head out of your @ss and take a look at it. If you want a kick to start you in the right direction, I suggest you look up the voluminous writings of Dr. Martin Fackler. His work on the science of terminal ballistics forms the basis of modern bullet design.
“Pistols are CRAP weapons. ”
That’s because they are a compromise. Portability being the priority.
Back in early WW2, the US military needed to arm vehicle drivers/crews, air crews but the 1911 required too much training and then with mixed results….the result was the M1 carbine….another compromise disaster.
A while back in the interest of NATO standardization and the training/effectiveness the US put the 1911 into reserve and adopted the M9 (9mm)….and put themselves back 100 years when the 38 Smith and Wesson failed to stop Islamic crazies in the Philippines. Police initially embraced 9mm then adopted the 40SW (10mm). Seals reverted to the 1911 and the IDF developed their version of the 1911 (Desert Eagle).
Compromise is the paving stones of the road to Hell.
It all comes back to training….professional(state and private) hitmen (including the Mossad)generally use .22 rinfire. Precise accuracy, easily silenced/concealable and lethal….and disposable….
“The “why didn’t the cop just wing the guy” question is always only asked by idiots or liars.”
Wilson had just been assaulted, resulting in temporary damage to his left eye. He was physically injured. People who ignore the situational facts, like the idiots and liars who would ask that question, shouldn’t take part in the conversation.
I’ve always liked the FN-FAL. Simple, strong, hits like a train. Give me an FAL any day if it all hits the fan, one of those short barrel paratrooper variants from DSA with a decent scope on it.
But it is kind of hard to hide one in your pants. And they do get heavy after a while.
If I’m forced to have a pistol, I’d prefer a 1911. But again, its hard to hide a full sized 1911 in your pants, and they get heavy after all day walking around.
So, hilariously given what I’ve said above, when I lived in Arizona I used to carry an aluminum framed Walther PPK knock-off from FEG chambered in .380. Easy to hide in your pants, didn’t get heavy, never jammed on me once. I figured it would buy me enough time to run away.
I must admit to being intrigued by the FN-PDW 5.7mm. Seems like a handy little gun, large ammunition capacity, high cyclic rate, just the thing for keeping the Zombies at bay while you go get your FAL. Here’s some interesting ammunition for it:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/11/26/interesting-5-7-ammo/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2014-12-02&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter
Copper machined by CNC cutters apparently, the little necks bend and snap off when the tip hits something squishy, so the disks all make separate wound tracks. More damage than a hollow point 5.7mm, which is basically a fat .22 caliber. Lots of fun pictures if you follow the links.
And speaking of .22, you missed one virtue of the .22 rimfire for an assassin: no exit wounds from head shots, therefore less mess to clean off your trench coat.
I suppose this makes me a Fascist according to “No It Isn’t” but that’s pretty much a badge of honor considering the source. Too bad Reality (TM) doesn’t conform itself to fit some people’s preconceptions, but it still doesn’t.
Agreed Oz. The “wing him” thing is a canard used by people of ill intent or its a stupid question asked by someone who’s never tried to hit a pop can with a pistol. Someone like “No it Isn’t” too bright.
A pop can is a fair approximation of the area you’re trying to hit. Standing in a field on a nice sunny day, a pop can is a nice challenge for a newbie. Its kinda hard to do at 30 feet distance.
Try hitting it in the dark, in the rain, after running 200 yards and getting slapped upside the head with a wet towel. With a knot in it.
Oh and by the way, Slenderman is there holding the can in one hand and a big freakin’ knife in the other, and he’s trying to kill you. Here he comes. Wow, he’s really fast. He ran 30 ft in like two seconds, holy cr@p.
Think you can hit that pop can now, hipster goof? Me neither. That’s why its two to the body and one to the head, repeat until target falls, reload and stand ready to shoot him when he gets up. Because he WILL get up and resume trying to kill your skinny hipster @ss about half the time. Because pistols are cr@p.
That’s why I like my FN-FAL. It will make an -impression- on good old Slenderman.
“That’s why I like my FN-FAL.”
Beautiful rifles those FALs. I once saw a TV show, way back, where they were using them to hunt rogue elephants.
“I sense you are both a fool AND a liar.”
Baseless ad hominem. Insert standard rubber/glue rebuttal here.
“…probably in an effort to make it look like he was still resisting…”
Actually, this was procedure post factum, a collusion to adjust the narrative and state that he was tased before he was shot.
“the cop managed to MISS the kid at least once.”
Indeed. Most likely round 3 as Yatkin dropped below aim.
“Which pretty much proves Michael Yon’s and my point about pistols being feeble weapons..”
I disagree both with the point and your proof. The point is selective narrative at best; one which lends credibility to multiple point blank discharges into the target where it is most often unnecessary. Not only do we see a conflation of combat with civilian law enforcement but also hyperbole regarding the nature and frequency of the drug crazed assailant.
“which need to be pointed at the largest mass available if the target is trying to kill you.”
Agreed baring other viable options. Yatim (for example) was contained and had a pen knife.
“even Forcillo may well have been perfectly justified in firing those first three rounds.”
I don’t think you believe that, at least I hope not. Forcillo is a gutless zealot, a postmodern cop.
“Where Forcillo crossed over to Evil was those six rounds fired at Yatim as he lay prone on the floor.”
Forcillo is evil. Since you have a penchant for relating a person’s major to their perspective, guess what Forcillo’s was.
He was a psych. major. He knowingly baited Yatim by telling him not to take “one more step.” That’s premeditation.
“…He’s specifically trained not to do that.”
Of course, bad form. No, bad forensics. This is why police today are specializing at getting in as many rounds as possible before the drop, not to affect the drop. Forcillo missed that nuance in all the excitement over his first kill.
“…I suggest you pull your head out of your @ss and take a look at it.”
Hmmmm….
Now I will mock you with this fine video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5GYP9dBWAOI
Many of these “Real World” thingies to choose from.
“Baseless ad hominem.”
Seriously, baseless? I think I supported my charge extensively. You’ve never fired a gun in your life, and you’re pretending to be able to judge Michael Yon and me. Fool -and- liar, sir.
“Most likely [missed] round 3 as Yatkin dropped below aim.”
Pure speculation. Nobody knows which round missed. Yet you pretend to.
“Not only do we see a conflation of combat with civilian law enforcement but also hyperbole regarding the nature and frequency of the drug crazed assailant.”
Well, unlike you I’ve actually been attacked by a “drug crazed assailant” on more than one occasion. They. Do. Not. Feel. Pain. At all. Got the scars to prove it too. Lucky for me none of them had a knife, or I might not be here typing this. Important safety tip, drunks don’t feel pain either. Ask me how I know.
As I said above, I know people shot multiple times who ran for blocks after being wounded. I did their physical therapy in the hospital. One memorable piece of work took a 9mm bullet through the liver from the front, through his neck from the side as he turned, and through the fibula of one leg as he ran away. He ran for blocks gut shot, breathing blood and with a leg bone shot off.
This is a very common occurrence. Go read, you will see. Happens pretty much daily in Chicago.
If you stir yourself to read Dr. Fackler even a little, you will rapidly discover how many cops die because their pistols couldn’t stop their attacker. One memorable event was the FBI Shootout in Miami, 1986. The results of after-action reports from that debacle caused the FBI to switch from revolvers to semi-automatic pistols in 10mm caliber.
“Yatim (for example) was contained and had a pen knife.”
Yatim was isolated, not contained. He had a three inch lockback knife, not a “pen knife”. We don’t know what happened on the streetcar. Possibly Forcillo had cause to fire on Yatim, but we don’t know. What we -do- know is Forcillo continued to fire on Yatim after he was down. That’s attempted murder.
“This is why police today are specializing at getting in as many rounds as possible before the drop, not to affect the drop.”
As I said before, police today barely get any shooting practice at all. They shoot for certification once a year, between 30 and 80 round course of fire. Then they never pull the gun out of the holster for the rest of the year. That’s why cops are issued Glocks, they generally destroy any other type of pistol by sheer neglect. I have seen it.
The default shooting technique of cops is “spray and pray”. I direct your attention to the shooting at the Empire State Building in 2012.
http://phantomsoapbox.blogspot.ca/2012/08/bleeding-update-third-never-bet-against.html
This is a common occurrence. It is caused by cowardice and lack of training. So is that video of yours. You’ll notice they stopped shooting him after he was on the ground. That’s the difference, Forcillo didn’t stop. He kept right on shooting Yatim as the kid was laying there.
Your problem is you think you know what you’re talking about. But you don’t. You should prepare yourself to accept that you know -absolutely nothing- about firearms, police tactics such as they are and shooting generally. Indeed the entire realm of self defense and martial arts seems completely foreign to you. Everything you think you know is a lie, little man.
You should go out and get yourself beat up a few times in scuzzy neighborhoods. I guarantee you will learn more from that than a lifetime of social justice courses at university. Things like watching a guy you just hammered to the ground jump up and punch you in the face leave a lifetime impression.
Try not to get killed, maybe get back to us with your observations from Realsville. You know, after you grow a clue.
“A while back in the interest of NATO standardization and the training/effectiveness the US put the 1911 into reserve and adopted the M9 (9mm)….and put themselves back 100 years when the 38 Smith and Wesson failed to stop Islamic crazies in the Philippines. Police initially embraced 9mm then adopted the 40SW (10mm). Seals reverted to the 1911 and the IDF developed their version of the 1911 (Desert Eagle).”
The main problem with the 9mm pistol in military service is that they’re required to use non-expanding bullets. Full metal jacket pistol bullets tend to just go straight through with minimal tissue destruction. The 9mm with modern hollow point bullets is a different story, especially with the most recent bullet designs of the past 15 years or so. In fact, many police agencies who previously abandoned the 9mm are now going back to it — including the FBI.
The SEALs can use pretty much any weapon system they want, and even there the 9mm is not universally shunned. The SIG P226 is one of the favored pistols in SEAL usage, and it is a 9mm.
“The main problem with the 9mm pistol in military service is that they’re required to use non-expanding bullets. Full metal jacket pistol bullets tend to just go straight through with minimal tissue destruction. The 9mm with modern hollow point bullets is a different story, especially with the most recent bullet designs of the past 15 years or so. In fact, many police agencies who previously abandoned the 9mm are now going back to it — including the FBI.”
Yeah, but the reason they are going to 9mm is not because it has better terminal ballistics than .45 ACP or 10mm. The reason is -recoil-. Because -women- can’t manage the recoil of the .45 ACP “comfortably”. Meaning they can shoot it, but they complain about it, and they flinch and get crappy scores at the range, and generally make management’s lives difficult.
Same goes for police switching from shotguns to 5.56mm rifles. Girls hate recoil. 5.56 doesn’t kick at all, little kids can shoot them.
My point is that even .45 ACP hollow points are terrible. They don’t reliably stop a fight, guys get shot, get up and keep fighting. Happens with 5.56mm rifles as well, guys keep fighting all the time. Huge problem in Iraq.
Doesn’t happen much with 7.62×51, or with shotgun slugs. But you can’t keep a shotgun in your pants, so pistols are issued to cops.