LA Times: The toll of the anti-vaccination movement, in one devastating graphic.
74 Replies to “Vaccinate Your Kids”
While the article correctly points out the craziness (and destruction) of the anti-vaccine crowd, I find the following sentence disturbing: The lesson of all this is that vaccination is not an individual choice to be made by a parent for his or her own offspring.
In other words, “the govt will decide, not you”. And the author doesns’t seem to realize the contradiction of “nanny state medicine” with the fact that the UK Nanny State has failed to curb … measles.
IIRC, homeopathy and other quack medicine is covered under the UK system… but you can opt out of a measles vaccination?
Definitely suggests that leaving it up to the nanny state is not any guarantee of good results.
The “anti-vaccination movement” appears to be especially powerful in southern Africa.
Amazing, I didn’t realize they had quite that much clout!
…. Could it be that it’s a case of people not knowing, not caring, or not wanting vaccination, and not a case of a movement having influence?
Personally, I think vaccines are a milestone in human health, but at the same time I think vaccines should be subject to the same scrutiny that you would give to
anything that can impact your health so directly. Especially something that is put directly into your body.
The specifics of who exactly is getting whooping cough and measles would be most interesting to see. How many are immigrants, particularly in the U.S., how many have
received immunization, and other cross sections of the proliferation of the diseases to make a viable perspective on what is really happening.
For all you Darwinists out there…this is merely the stupid culling their own.
Jenny McCarthy, what an evil yet simple-minded %#*&@.
She is the poster-child for the destructive fall-out of celebrity activism in the modern world. I can only hope there is some avenue available to prosecute her for her naive and arrogant crimes against humanity. Neil Young is another fine example of what happens to an individual’s psyche after a lifetime of being told how friggin’ great they are. They believe it and our media only too gladly reinforces their delusion.
Next on the list of horrid atrocities based on ignorance, the Vatican for selfishly abusing faith and using it to ban condoms in AIDS ravaged Africa. Maybe that one is actually a close tie to the needless deaths caused by the “do-gooders” banning of DDT.
It’s hard to tell with so much devastation created by the self-righteous around the globe.
It’s not about them culling their own, however. The ones most at risk are the children of others who are too young for vaccinations. The stupidity of the anti-vaccine cult is killing other people’s kids.
No. Just kidding, my offspring got/get all of the routine childhood vaccinations that have been so effective at stopping horrible diseases.
OTOH, we didn’t get them vaccinated for the H1N1 “epidemic” a few years back and we pass on the annual flu vaccine. As a parent, I feel it is my right to refuse some types of vaccinations. I don’t think the case for some vaccines is strong enough to make them mandatory. Now, if a flu came along that appeared to be truly epidemic I would certainly get them vaccinated. The risk must be significant or your health fragile to warrant vaccinating against the normal types of flu, IMO.
This is a nasty debate in libertarian circles, BTW. Good arguments on both sides: do no harm to others vs. individual rights
But the global warming types, funded by the exact same financial and political establishment are wrong? It saddens me to see such hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty.
The mistake made by most people is that all vaccines for all diseases are the same and that all vaccines can be placed in the good and necessary category. It is far more complicated then that and the pros and cons of each vaccine need to be weighed on their own merits. For instance not all governments are in agreement on the HPV vaccine. http://www.medic8.com/news/hpv-vaccine-withdrawn-amid-infertility-fears-0692/
It’s not an esoteric debate for me. The same anti-vaccine idiots are present in the purebred dog world, preventing the eradication of horrific, fatal diseases like distemper through their ignorance.
just be aware that there are adverse reactions to vaccinations! my 4 month old nephew had a hospital documented, pediatrician acknowledge reaction. 4 days in NICU were not so much fun for his parents.
Be aware that reactions are rare and rarely fatal while a common reaction to non-immunization is death. Historically 1/10 of 1 % of measles victims died. Fetuses with rubella can end up retarded. I remember from my youth, people in wheelchairs that had been permanently crippled by polio. So many stupid people.
It’s too bad that people won’t discern the difference between proven efficacious vaccines which last for years/decades such as the ones for measles/whooping cough/polio etc. which are bacterial infections and the various influenza vaccine cocktails (influenza being a viral infection) which vaccines are Not proven to be any more effective than not getting a vaccination at all and which are administered annually.
thank you so much for calling me stupid. I am in my forties, and as far as I can remember no one in my town died of regular childhood diseases. or had complications. something is at work creating fear about these diseases that is way over blown. name calling to me proves that the argument is weak
The Council on Foreign Relations, eh?
Some real credibility there…
I will point out the obvious that my children do not eat (or sniff) other children’s feces or vomit. Nor do they eat garbage or sniff each others butts. Our past dog lived 18 years (lab/rotty cross) and our current 7 year old goldy and 1.5 year old Burmese mountain/lab cross are healthy and vibrant…all unvaccinated.
This topic seems to bring out the same sort of knee-jerk reactions as the cannabis legalization debate. I’m not anti-vaccination but rather pro choice on the matter.
First, don’t fall under the misguided notion that vaccinations are a panacea. Personal experience has shown that not all vaccinations work. I got the pertussis vaccination and got a wopping and prolonged bout of whooping cough as an adult. My wife, also vaccinated for the disease contracted it and was hospitalized as a child. Friend of mine got vaccinated for malaria and came down with a very debilitating bout of it and was quarantined in hospital.
Secondly, don’t fall for the unscientific notion that all people react the same way to all medication; vaccinations are pharmaceuticals. My oldest started to show the signs of autism the evening of her MMR vaccination, my other kids did not react. My oldest reacts to many chemical compounds. I believe that both poles in the debate are wrong and that both have poorly framed arguments.
Thirdly, sometimes there may be bad vaccines such as in the Australian polio vaccine experience in the 1960’s where far more of the vaccinated ones contracted the disease than the non-vaccinated ones
Just saying.
comment caught in the filter
I am not anti-vaccine!
But I stand firmly against the manufacturing of the cluster-vaccines like MMR which are proven to be harmful, if not deadly (SIDS documentation), because of the dosages. The drug companies should make available to our society the dosages which are separated out from these type of clusters so we as parents and medical practitioners could make choices as to the timing and dosages which are available.
I haven’t the time to do justice to the documentation, but there are even court cases which have proven that these cluster-vaccines have caused permanent and catastrophic damage to children. The drug companies have been found liable and paid huge financial settlements to the families towards the care of the disabled children.
I agree that the COFR is dictating what is “good” for us, and any time that seems to be the case, they are now doing the thinking for me and if I don’t do my own due diligence, I get what I have coming to me.
I love the idea of Vaccinations, but not when they’re administered by the UN or people favourable to the UN and certainly not when they’ve been caught red handed forcing sterilization through the vaccines they force on people and some Vaccinations for constantly mutating diseases I just don’t see the benefit of.
When somene from the global warming crowd wants to stick a needle in my arm I might be a little suspicious.
Hey Glacierman,
You can get the vaccines separated and time them when you want. Just strongly request separate vaccines from your physician as we did with the other children, and choose the ones you want when you want. If he/she won’t do it say “no vaccine then”. He/she will comply because they feel you need to vaccinate. Some doctors will “kick and scream”, but the reason I believe is the inconvenience and extra cost. We insisted and our doctor understood because of our oldest child’s reaction. We are also fortunate in that our GP is not always ready to ,pardon the pun, swallow the big pharma pill
When I was a kid, some time ago now, my mother sent me around to play with kids that had chicken pox or measles, so I’d get inoculated … the hard way.
Now I’d send kids for vaccination.
There is a solution to the anti-vaccine crowd other than the iron boot of government.
Shunning.
Children and adults who have not been vaccinated will not be allowed in to public schools, public hospitals, public sports venues, public offices etc.
Private companies etc. can make up their own minds how they want to play it, but would most likely follow the shunning rule due to liability concerns.
This policy is already in place for children’s camps etc. No shots, no camp for you.
This way, nut cases don’t endanger others with their nuttery and we all avoid the dangers of an overly empowered State.
Because frankly, unrestrained government has a lot higher death toll than whooping cough.
Should work well, they did it with second hand smoke.
The fact they manufactured the proof didn’t stop them.
aunt j “thank you so much for calling me stupid. I am in my forties, and as far as I can remember no one in my town died of regular childhood diseases. or had complications. something is at work creating fear about these diseases that is way over blown. name calling to me proves that the argument is weak”
From wiki – Between the years 1987 and 2000, the case fatality rate across the United States was 3 measles-attributable deaths per 1000 cases, or 0.3%.
Did I say 1 /10 of 1 %? That’s 3/10 of 1 %. You’re welcome.
This site is always about freedom of choice and becoming informed and then like sheep everyone here follows the vaccine crowd and goes baaaahhh. If vaccines are so effective, why do you need to get a booster seven years later? Why do you need to keep renewing your, “vaccine”?
Measles are a childhood disease and there are less deaths from measles than there are the vaccine for it in this country. Why did the states set up a fund to compensate families who lost their children to the, “vaccine”? The rise of autism, allergies, respiratory problems cannot be directly linked to the vaccines, but when plotted out on ta graph, one clearly sees the correlations.
Comparing countries that have much less healthier conditions is lazy. Crowded areas are also more problematic, as is lack of proper diet and nutrition. Other factors are blood types, cultural traditions, and proper rest. Anyone who says that living in Montana is just like living in Africa is basically brain dead.
I have four kids, and the first two were vaccinated, and the last two were not. Guess which kids are healthy and which ones are less healthy? I spent the years looking into this, reading about it, and understanding it. Your comments on this board are very much like saying,”if only California taxed more, the problems would go away.” Same rationale, same brain dead responses.
I think Phantom has a good point. Prior to modern medicine, quarantine was the only effective way of preventing the spread of highly communicable diseases. As far as employment goes, if it comes down to individual choice, then I as an employer can decline to hire you if you’re not vaccinated and thus pose a risk to all the rest of my employees.
LC, it is indeed a good debate for libertarians. This is where I part company with the most extreme libertarians. None of us have the right to pose a public health risk.
“I as an employer can decline to hire you if you’re not vaccinated and thus pose a risk to all the rest of my employees”
Boycotts and bad PR work well for overbearing employers..Duck Dynasty comes to mind. .
I find it odd that the one’s who are not immunized are considered a health risk to those immunized. If so, why did you immunize if you then had to live in fear? I don’t live in fear! I don’t get the flu shot. I don’t get sick! If I am sick from something contagious I stay away from my elderly relatives. If they are sick, I weigh the risk.
I get tetanus shots, my dog got rabies shots. I got the childhood vaccines available in the 1960’s, but I also got measles, chicken pox and whooping cough.
The Australian Gov’t knowing gave children a polio vaccine known to contain a virus known to cause cancer http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/22/1098316860457.html
They were more worried about infecting the Queen on her visit than the safety of their citizens it would seem, so they rushed the vaccine.
Don’t believe everything you are told, do your own logical research and most importantly relax, we all die in the end.
If vaccines are so effective, why do you need to get a booster seven years later? The same is true of food. If it were so effective, why do we keep having to eat every 24 hours? Its a big conspiracy funded by Big Cereal.
You sir, are a blathering blunderbuss. I bid you good day.
Cute! but it doesn’t move anyone closer to keeping the potential carriers of deadly diseases away from my front yard. Cheers
I’m honestly conflicted on this one. Vaccine safety and effectiveness for the major childhood illness have stood the test of time and science. To knowingly put your own and other children in danger is reckless…but criminal? I can see statists like Bloomberg and capital cronyism taking advantage of that situation. Shunning is likely the best, but imperfect, answer.
what’s that big purple dot in the middle of quebecoisville?
reasonable accommodation?
Stupid, ill-informed, and anti-social. You must live in a very
small town.
I started to get regular flu vaccinations after I found that oh say 50%
recovery would take 10 days while full recovery took about 6 months. I
also contracted Bell’s Palsy back in 1983 coming off of the flu (it is
not know for sure whether there is a connection) and a really nasty
allergy back in 1994 coming off of another flu. But I was fairly lucky.
Flu has some very – interesting – complications. Such as myocarditis.
Back in the `80s a flu was going around which didn’t seem very bad,
but my mother, in Ottawa, noticed that quite a few middle-aged women
were dying. She attended a coffee party one morning, where most of
the women had or were recovering from the “mild flu.” One of her friends,
not very sic apparently, got up out of her chair and dropped back into
it, dead.
That’s what myocarditis can do for you.
Another neat feature of influenza is that it is symbiotic with a
number of common bacteria; which is to say, the virus particles
facilitate infection by the bacteria, and the bacteria facilitate
infection by the viruses. It is thought that this is a reason for the
deadliness of the Spanish flu in 1918. In 1918 there were no
antibiotics, of course. And that is our own future – near future (I
hear whisperings that it is already here – “the doctors just couldn’t
get ahead of the infection” being the way it was put.)
As for the statist/freedom aspect it is hard to say – we still have
quarantine regulations on the books, don’t we? That is perhaps the
best option – do what you please, but if you get caught, you’ll be
locked up (in your own house).
From wiki – Between the years 1987 and 2000, the case fatality rate across the United States was 3 measles-attributable deaths per 1000 cases, or 0.3%. Did I say 1 /10 of 1 %? That’s 3/10 of 1 %. You’re welcome.
So what’s the big deal? 0.3% is insignificant when compared to death by abortion which is close to 100% fatal. 50 million lives lost via abortion in the USA. Now that is significant. I don’t see governments stopping abortion to save lives; do you? Hypocrites.
Well if you are in your forties, the reason why no kids in your town died of childhood diseases is pretty damn obvious: they were all vaccinated. I’m older than you, and my friends and I were all vaccinated, too.
And the problem with having unvaccinated kids running around loose, is that they can become disease vectors, and infect children who are too young to have yet received the vaccines, or adults in whom the immunity has worn off.
“I started to get regular flu vaccinations ”
The ‘Flu’ is a VIRUS.
Viral infections are not like bacterial infections.
Unlike inoculations for bacterial infections such as measles, whooping cough, polio, etc. there is ZERO evidence that flu shots have any therapeutic value whatsoever.
Let’s not lump all vaccines in to the same basket.
Vccines for the deadly childhood diseses are effective and specific.
Flu vaccine is not…and should not be mandated for health care workers.
Anyone who has wondered through a 150 year old cemetary is shocked by the preponderance of young children on grave markers. That’s the result of those harmless childhood diseases. A family of 10 probably lost 2 or 3 kids before adulthood. The only thing saving people so far is the number of people already immunized.
“Dr.” Bob said: “If vaccines are so effective, why do you need to get a booster seven years later? Why do you need to keep renewing your, “vaccine”? ”
I find the notion that you might actually be a doctor absolutely terrifying. Clearly you have not the faintest idea how the human immune response works. Have you never wondered why people who had chicken pox as children can still get shingles in adulthood? Its the same virus, they should be immune, shouldn’t they? But they’re not.
Ponder this, Bob.
Eagle, your analogy is as pertinent as comparing repeated breathing to re-vaccinating.
My father would religiously get the flu shot every year, and without fail he continually got sick. It was not until he came down with alzheimers that we could stop the shots. Since then he has never been sick, but I wonder sometimes about the cause of this disease.
You want to be healthy, eat properly, sleep as much as your body requires, exercise but not too much, get out in the sun occasionally,keep clean but don’t go overboard, stay away from drugs, drink seldom or low amounts, don’t smoke to toke, keep an inquisitive mind and remember to be happy.
My family has a history of long lives as long as everyone stayed on the proper course. The city people who vaccinated, believed packaged food was just as good, used drugs to regulate their bodies, and did all their exercising in a gym, or not at all, died younger than the average.
Proper sanitation, good diets, and health awareness have done more to extend our lives than any green goop in a syringe. Did I mention I went to medical school?
Medical science cannot fix stupid, but with the right steps you can live stupidly longer.
“50 million lives lost via abortion in the USA.”
Fifty million people who didn’t vote for Obama, 50 million fewer progressives.
So, what’s the down side?
I find it very interesting that there are many here who are quoting the L.A. tabloid when for the most part they would deride the rag. Further, to have a position against the status quo is one I have come to expect here. I never expected to find so many people brainwashed on this subject. Bottom line, most knowledge that runs contrary to the established drug culture is anecdotal and observational, because there are no trillion dollar industries willing to fund and publish the negatives.
The evidence supporting the published conclusions are not founded and the claimed success rate also correlates with improvements in diet, health, insulated homes, and body awareness. A healthy, well nourished, rested, and prepared body does not need a vaccine. The genetic exceptions should not be the norm.
cgh said: “Prior to modern medicine, quarantine was the only effective way of preventing the spread of highly communicable diseases. As far as employment goes, if it comes down to individual choice, then I as an employer can decline to hire you if you’re not vaccinated and thus pose a risk to all the rest of my employees.”
Yes. Once upon a time not too long ago, quarantine was indeed the only way to prevent the spread of -fatal- diseases. We have all been raised in the post-antibiotic world, where not much of anything is fatal anymore, so we don’t understand the reasons why the Victorians built so many “sanatorium” hospitals. We also don’t get the “no spitting” laws, or for the most part the public health laws still on the books.
The problem is, as Kate points out above, that people like Dr. Bob can’t or won’t accept their own -PERSONAL- responsibility for the collective health of the people where they live. Their actions in refusing vaccines for childhood diseases adversely affect everyone around them.
Polio is an excellent example of a disease that still exists in the world only because some people are IDIOTS. My entire profession, physical therapy, was invented to take care of children who survived polio. The entire knowledge we have of muscle testing and muscular exercise was invented to keep those polio victims alive and make them as functional as they could be.
Polio is making a comeback in Pakistan because of pureblind fools who think religion and poitics trumps Reality ™. They won’t be the ones who have to pay the piper when the hospitals of Pakistan are filled up with half-crippled children.
So I have a great deal of sympathy for people who want to go over to the likes of Dr. Bob’s house with a SWAT team and inoculate his children and himself at gun point.
But then we have the cautionary tale of the Soviet Union and China, 100 million dead between them. Those kinds of numbers really command attention.
I find it reasonable that the common people, meaning Us Guys, should be able to take effective individual and collective action to prevent being harmed by morons who won’t do the right thing for whatever moronic reasons they may have.
This is no different than carrying a gun to prevent murder/rape/robbery, in principle.
A healthy, well nourished, rested, and prepared body does not need a vaccine.
Doctor, if my kids are healthy, well nourished, rested … then we need not worry about that whole polio\smallpox thing?
That’s more than enough evidence to convince me! Thank you for unbrainwashing this humble citizen.
I think we need to differentiate between vaccines against contagious diseases (e.g. MMR) and lifestyle diseases (e.g. HPV). For the former you are reducing the herd immunity and putting others at risk (what the diagrams show). In the latter case there are alternatives e.g. for HPV don’t have unprotected sex with multiple partners, get pap smears, etc.
What is concerning with the HPV vaccine is the aggressive promotion of it by the government of Ontario. My daughter is in grade 8 so we saw this first hand. After we were sent the approval form we investigated the issue and after my wife discussed the pros and cons with my daughter she decided to wait and decide (since she can catch up by grade 12). Two weeks after handing in the form opting out my wife got a call from the local health department; the nurse asked why we opted out and my wife explained; the nurse wasn’t able to counter the arguments other than repeatedly state that this was recommended by the ministry of health; and the conversation ended with my wife reiterating that we aren’t approving. When the first shot was to be administered all the girls in the class were taken to the nurses office. I have no problem with this since it masks identifying who is or isn’t getting the shot. But according to my daughter, once the health nurses got a hold of the girls who weren’t getting the shot they started to apply pressure to the girls including insisting that they call their mothers. My daughter stood up to them and refused. The other girls called and the mothers had to argue with the nurses to reaffirm their positions. I found this very disturbing especially as the GofO isn’t providing balanced information for parents and their daughters (never mind the sons are being ignored). Note: my daughter’s GP has no issue with the decision so again why is the government so enthusiastically pushing this.
Dear Dr. Bob: Clearly many of the kool aid drinkers here abouts are a little too wrapped up by brain cramps. Here’s an even better one for you… In a lunch conversation a couple of years ago I was speaking with the former HEAD of the public health vaccination programs for two G7 English speaking countries (one of which was NOT the USA). I asked him straight up what his opinion was on the vaccine issue. He replied that the only vaccine he thought was worth the risk was small pox and he took it and got it for his children and family. The others, in his double PhD. and lifetime in public health opinion were not worth the risk. I guess he probably didn’t know what he was talking about :). As to your concern about Alzheimer’s and flu shots, several years ago I saw a correlational study that showed, all things being equal, a five-fold increase for Alzheimer’s for participants who had received at least five annual flu shots compared to those who had no shots. As to Andrew Wakefield, he recently re-did his MMR study on apes (or monkies) and replicated his results…but you won’t read it in JAMA (or the Lancet). Like Edward Snowden, I guess he must be working for the Russians :)…nothing to see here citizen, move along now.
Oz, check your facts. Flu (influenza), measles, and polio are all caused by viruses.
One can argue anything anecdotally, “My friend’s son got vaccinated and then he got hit by a train — proof that vaccines can kill ya!” The epidemiological evidence is overwhelming that vaccination against childhood illness is effective. Unvaccinated individuals serve as reservoirs who can transmit disease to the most vulnerable as exemplified by the deaths of infants too young to be vaccinated against pertussis dying of the disease contracted from older, unvaccinated individuals.
In the third world, failure to vaccinate by choice is particularly heartbreaking since nutritional (especially protein) deficiencies can make the course of preventable diseases disastrous as for example the deaths of children from measles.
Life is about playing the odds. Over domestication breeds complacency. But mother nature can be a real b!tch, as she was for most of human history.
I find it funny how the usual crowd here is totally anti government, anti- large corporation, and preaching individual rights but embrace the left wing attitude as soon as they can when someone disagrees with their brainwashed ideology. How can you embrace freedom and demand someone assimilate and comply based upon your opinions? One comment talks about immunity wearing off? Another talks about their vaccinated kids becoming infected? Another talks about a SWAT forcing vaccinations upon the non- vaccinated? Another one uses the rise of polio in a third world country that has sanitation issues up the ying yang and thinks the comparison has merit?
Too many are making assumptions and not paying attention. Next time, you see your local doctor ask him for a pamphlet on the side effects of any of these drugs. Not available. Ask yourself, what happens when you mix drugs together? How about 20 different drugs at a time? How about 20 drugs on a very young and still undeveloped immune system? Check into incidences of SIDS in early age vaccinated countries verses countries that vaccinate after 5 years old.
Education on the matter here is sorely lacking, and quite frankly, trying.
Agree entirely, Phantom. The notion of personal responsibility for preventing harm to others is what too many libertarians miss. Freedom does not mean freedom to inflict on others.
And yes, I remember polio well. I’m just old enough to remember a number of schoolmates in very early grade school suffering from that, braces and all.
As to the totalitarian motif, there are some mandatory requirements for living in a civilized society. One of the most important is that as an individual we do not present a mortal threat to those around us. That means vaccination or absolute quarantine. Some idiot above sneered at a mere 0.3 per cent mortality rate. As far as I’m concerned, that’s 0.3 per cent too much to be tolerated by the casual indifference to the health and welfare of others.
Thomas Hobbes pointed out that absolute freedom is as much a form of slavery as absolute tyranny. The secret to a free society is to strike the balance in deciding those things which can freely be left to individual choice and those which cannot.
While the article correctly points out the craziness (and destruction) of the anti-vaccine crowd, I find the following sentence disturbing:
The lesson of all this is that vaccination is not an individual choice to be made by a parent for his or her own offspring.
In other words, “the govt will decide, not you”. And the author doesns’t seem to realize the contradiction of “nanny state medicine” with the fact that the UK Nanny State has failed to curb … measles.
IIRC, homeopathy and other quack medicine is covered under the UK system… but you can opt out of a measles vaccination?
Definitely suggests that leaving it up to the nanny state is not any guarantee of good results.
The “anti-vaccination movement” appears to be especially powerful in southern Africa.
Amazing, I didn’t realize they had quite that much clout!
…. Could it be that it’s a case of people not knowing, not caring, or not wanting vaccination, and not a case of a movement having influence?
Personally, I think vaccines are a milestone in human health, but at the same time I think vaccines should be subject to the same scrutiny that you would give to
anything that can impact your health so directly. Especially something that is put directly into your body.
The specifics of who exactly is getting whooping cough and measles would be most interesting to see. How many are immigrants, particularly in the U.S., how many have
received immunization, and other cross sections of the proliferation of the diseases to make a viable perspective on what is really happening.
For all you Darwinists out there…this is merely the stupid culling their own.
Jenny McCarthy, what an evil yet simple-minded %#*&@.
She is the poster-child for the destructive fall-out of celebrity activism in the modern world. I can only hope there is some avenue available to prosecute her for her naive and arrogant crimes against humanity. Neil Young is another fine example of what happens to an individual’s psyche after a lifetime of being told how friggin’ great they are. They believe it and our media only too gladly reinforces their delusion.
Next on the list of horrid atrocities based on ignorance, the Vatican for selfishly abusing faith and using it to ban condoms in AIDS ravaged Africa. Maybe that one is actually a close tie to the needless deaths caused by the “do-gooders” banning of DDT.
It’s hard to tell with so much devastation created by the self-righteous around the globe.
It’s not about them culling their own, however. The ones most at risk are the children of others who are too young for vaccinations. The stupidity of the anti-vaccine cult is killing other people’s kids.
No. Just kidding, my offspring got/get all of the routine childhood vaccinations that have been so effective at stopping horrible diseases.
OTOH, we didn’t get them vaccinated for the H1N1 “epidemic” a few years back and we pass on the annual flu vaccine. As a parent, I feel it is my right to refuse some types of vaccinations. I don’t think the case for some vaccines is strong enough to make them mandatory. Now, if a flu came along that appeared to be truly epidemic I would certainly get them vaccinated. The risk must be significant or your health fragile to warrant vaccinating against the normal types of flu, IMO.
This is a nasty debate in libertarian circles, BTW. Good arguments on both sides: do no harm to others vs. individual rights
But the global warming types, funded by the exact same financial and political establishment are wrong? It saddens me to see such hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty.
The mistake made by most people is that all vaccines for all diseases are the same and that all vaccines can be placed in the good and necessary category. It is far more complicated then that and the pros and cons of each vaccine need to be weighed on their own merits. For instance not all governments are in agreement on the HPV vaccine. http://www.medic8.com/news/hpv-vaccine-withdrawn-amid-infertility-fears-0692/
It’s not an esoteric debate for me. The same anti-vaccine idiots are present in the purebred dog world, preventing the eradication of horrific, fatal diseases like distemper through their ignorance.
just be aware that there are adverse reactions to vaccinations! my 4 month old nephew had a hospital documented, pediatrician acknowledge reaction. 4 days in NICU were not so much fun for his parents.
Be aware that reactions are rare and rarely fatal while a common reaction to non-immunization is death. Historically 1/10 of 1 % of measles victims died. Fetuses with rubella can end up retarded. I remember from my youth, people in wheelchairs that had been permanently crippled by polio. So many stupid people.
It’s too bad that people won’t discern the difference between proven efficacious vaccines which last for years/decades such as the ones for measles/whooping cough/polio etc. which are bacterial infections and the various influenza vaccine cocktails (influenza being a viral infection) which vaccines are Not proven to be any more effective than not getting a vaccination at all and which are administered annually.
thank you so much for calling me stupid. I am in my forties, and as far as I can remember no one in my town died of regular childhood diseases. or had complications. something is at work creating fear about these diseases that is way over blown. name calling to me proves that the argument is weak
The Council on Foreign Relations, eh?
Some real credibility there…
I will point out the obvious that my children do not eat (or sniff) other children’s feces or vomit. Nor do they eat garbage or sniff each others butts. Our past dog lived 18 years (lab/rotty cross) and our current 7 year old goldy and 1.5 year old Burmese mountain/lab cross are healthy and vibrant…all unvaccinated.
This topic seems to bring out the same sort of knee-jerk reactions as the cannabis legalization debate. I’m not anti-vaccination but rather pro choice on the matter.
First, don’t fall under the misguided notion that vaccinations are a panacea. Personal experience has shown that not all vaccinations work. I got the pertussis vaccination and got a wopping and prolonged bout of whooping cough as an adult. My wife, also vaccinated for the disease contracted it and was hospitalized as a child. Friend of mine got vaccinated for malaria and came down with a very debilitating bout of it and was quarantined in hospital.
Secondly, don’t fall for the unscientific notion that all people react the same way to all medication; vaccinations are pharmaceuticals. My oldest started to show the signs of autism the evening of her MMR vaccination, my other kids did not react. My oldest reacts to many chemical compounds. I believe that both poles in the debate are wrong and that both have poorly framed arguments.
Thirdly, sometimes there may be bad vaccines such as in the Australian polio vaccine experience in the 1960’s where far more of the vaccinated ones contracted the disease than the non-vaccinated ones
Just saying.
comment caught in the filter
I am not anti-vaccine!
But I stand firmly against the manufacturing of the cluster-vaccines like MMR which are proven to be harmful, if not deadly (SIDS documentation), because of the dosages. The drug companies should make available to our society the dosages which are separated out from these type of clusters so we as parents and medical practitioners could make choices as to the timing and dosages which are available.
I haven’t the time to do justice to the documentation, but there are even court cases which have proven that these cluster-vaccines have caused permanent and catastrophic damage to children. The drug companies have been found liable and paid huge financial settlements to the families towards the care of the disabled children.
I agree that the COFR is dictating what is “good” for us, and any time that seems to be the case, they are now doing the thinking for me and if I don’t do my own due diligence, I get what I have coming to me.
I love the idea of Vaccinations, but not when they’re administered by the UN or people favourable to the UN and certainly not when they’ve been caught red handed forcing sterilization through the vaccines they force on people and some Vaccinations for constantly mutating diseases I just don’t see the benefit of.
When somene from the global warming crowd wants to stick a needle in my arm I might be a little suspicious.
Hey Glacierman,
You can get the vaccines separated and time them when you want. Just strongly request separate vaccines from your physician as we did with the other children, and choose the ones you want when you want. If he/she won’t do it say “no vaccine then”. He/she will comply because they feel you need to vaccinate. Some doctors will “kick and scream”, but the reason I believe is the inconvenience and extra cost. We insisted and our doctor understood because of our oldest child’s reaction. We are also fortunate in that our GP is not always ready to ,pardon the pun, swallow the big pharma pill
When I was a kid, some time ago now, my mother sent me around to play with kids that had chicken pox or measles, so I’d get inoculated … the hard way.
Now I’d send kids for vaccination.
There is a solution to the anti-vaccine crowd other than the iron boot of government.
Shunning.
Children and adults who have not been vaccinated will not be allowed in to public schools, public hospitals, public sports venues, public offices etc.
Private companies etc. can make up their own minds how they want to play it, but would most likely follow the shunning rule due to liability concerns.
This policy is already in place for children’s camps etc. No shots, no camp for you.
This way, nut cases don’t endanger others with their nuttery and we all avoid the dangers of an overly empowered State.
Because frankly, unrestrained government has a lot higher death toll than whooping cough.
Should work well, they did it with second hand smoke.
The fact they manufactured the proof didn’t stop them.
aunt j “thank you so much for calling me stupid. I am in my forties, and as far as I can remember no one in my town died of regular childhood diseases. or had complications. something is at work creating fear about these diseases that is way over blown. name calling to me proves that the argument is weak”
From wiki – Between the years 1987 and 2000, the case fatality rate across the United States was 3 measles-attributable deaths per 1000 cases, or 0.3%.
Did I say 1 /10 of 1 %? That’s 3/10 of 1 %. You’re welcome.
This site is always about freedom of choice and becoming informed and then like sheep everyone here follows the vaccine crowd and goes baaaahhh. If vaccines are so effective, why do you need to get a booster seven years later? Why do you need to keep renewing your, “vaccine”?
Measles are a childhood disease and there are less deaths from measles than there are the vaccine for it in this country. Why did the states set up a fund to compensate families who lost their children to the, “vaccine”? The rise of autism, allergies, respiratory problems cannot be directly linked to the vaccines, but when plotted out on ta graph, one clearly sees the correlations.
Comparing countries that have much less healthier conditions is lazy. Crowded areas are also more problematic, as is lack of proper diet and nutrition. Other factors are blood types, cultural traditions, and proper rest. Anyone who says that living in Montana is just like living in Africa is basically brain dead.
I have four kids, and the first two were vaccinated, and the last two were not. Guess which kids are healthy and which ones are less healthy? I spent the years looking into this, reading about it, and understanding it. Your comments on this board are very much like saying,”if only California taxed more, the problems would go away.” Same rationale, same brain dead responses.
I think Phantom has a good point. Prior to modern medicine, quarantine was the only effective way of preventing the spread of highly communicable diseases. As far as employment goes, if it comes down to individual choice, then I as an employer can decline to hire you if you’re not vaccinated and thus pose a risk to all the rest of my employees.
LC, it is indeed a good debate for libertarians. This is where I part company with the most extreme libertarians. None of us have the right to pose a public health risk.
“I as an employer can decline to hire you if you’re not vaccinated and thus pose a risk to all the rest of my employees”
Boycotts and bad PR work well for overbearing employers..Duck Dynasty comes to mind. .
I find it odd that the one’s who are not immunized are considered a health risk to those immunized. If so, why did you immunize if you then had to live in fear? I don’t live in fear! I don’t get the flu shot. I don’t get sick! If I am sick from something contagious I stay away from my elderly relatives. If they are sick, I weigh the risk.
I get tetanus shots, my dog got rabies shots. I got the childhood vaccines available in the 1960’s, but I also got measles, chicken pox and whooping cough.
The Australian Gov’t knowing gave children a polio vaccine known to contain a virus known to cause cancer
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/22/1098316860457.html
They were more worried about infecting the Queen on her visit than the safety of their citizens it would seem, so they rushed the vaccine.
Don’t believe everything you are told, do your own logical research and most importantly relax, we all die in the end.
If vaccines are so effective, why do you need to get a booster seven years later?
The same is true of food. If it were so effective, why do we keep having to eat every 24 hours? Its a big conspiracy funded by Big Cereal.
You sir, are a blathering blunderbuss. I bid you good day.
It’s also a matter of trust. Big Pharma nor Government has not done a good job of earning it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AazObF_pHSU
Cute! but it doesn’t move anyone closer to keeping the potential carriers of deadly diseases away from my front yard. Cheers
I’m honestly conflicted on this one. Vaccine safety and effectiveness for the major childhood illness have stood the test of time and science. To knowingly put your own and other children in danger is reckless…but criminal? I can see statists like Bloomberg and capital cronyism taking advantage of that situation. Shunning is likely the best, but imperfect, answer.
what’s that big purple dot in the middle of quebecoisville?
reasonable accommodation?
Stupid, ill-informed, and anti-social. You must live in a very
small town.
I started to get regular flu vaccinations after I found that oh say 50%
recovery would take 10 days while full recovery took about 6 months. I
also contracted Bell’s Palsy back in 1983 coming off of the flu (it is
not know for sure whether there is a connection) and a really nasty
allergy back in 1994 coming off of another flu. But I was fairly lucky.
Flu has some very – interesting – complications. Such as myocarditis.
Back in the `80s a flu was going around which didn’t seem very bad,
but my mother, in Ottawa, noticed that quite a few middle-aged women
were dying. She attended a coffee party one morning, where most of
the women had or were recovering from the “mild flu.” One of her friends,
not very sic apparently, got up out of her chair and dropped back into
it, dead.
That’s what myocarditis can do for you.
Another neat feature of influenza is that it is symbiotic with a
number of common bacteria; which is to say, the virus particles
facilitate infection by the bacteria, and the bacteria facilitate
infection by the viruses. It is thought that this is a reason for the
deadliness of the Spanish flu in 1918. In 1918 there were no
antibiotics, of course. And that is our own future – near future (I
hear whisperings that it is already here – “the doctors just couldn’t
get ahead of the infection” being the way it was put.)
As for the statist/freedom aspect it is hard to say – we still have
quarantine regulations on the books, don’t we? That is perhaps the
best option – do what you please, but if you get caught, you’ll be
locked up (in your own house).
From wiki – Between the years 1987 and 2000, the case fatality rate across the United States was 3 measles-attributable deaths per 1000 cases, or 0.3%. Did I say 1 /10 of 1 %? That’s 3/10 of 1 %. You’re welcome.
So what’s the big deal? 0.3% is insignificant when compared to death by abortion which is close to 100% fatal. 50 million lives lost via abortion in the USA. Now that is significant. I don’t see governments stopping abortion to save lives; do you? Hypocrites.
Well if you are in your forties, the reason why no kids in your town died of childhood diseases is pretty damn obvious: they were all vaccinated. I’m older than you, and my friends and I were all vaccinated, too.
And the problem with having unvaccinated kids running around loose, is that they can become disease vectors, and infect children who are too young to have yet received the vaccines, or adults in whom the immunity has worn off.
“I started to get regular flu vaccinations ”
The ‘Flu’ is a VIRUS.
Viral infections are not like bacterial infections.
Unlike inoculations for bacterial infections such as measles, whooping cough, polio, etc. there is ZERO evidence that flu shots have any therapeutic value whatsoever.
Let’s not lump all vaccines in to the same basket.
Vccines for the deadly childhood diseses are effective and specific.
Flu vaccine is not…and should not be mandated for health care workers.
Anyone who has wondered through a 150 year old cemetary is shocked by the preponderance of young children on grave markers. That’s the result of those harmless childhood diseases. A family of 10 probably lost 2 or 3 kids before adulthood. The only thing saving people so far is the number of people already immunized.
“Dr.” Bob said: “If vaccines are so effective, why do you need to get a booster seven years later? Why do you need to keep renewing your, “vaccine”? ”
I find the notion that you might actually be a doctor absolutely terrifying. Clearly you have not the faintest idea how the human immune response works. Have you never wondered why people who had chicken pox as children can still get shingles in adulthood? Its the same virus, they should be immune, shouldn’t they? But they’re not.
Ponder this, Bob.
Eagle, your analogy is as pertinent as comparing repeated breathing to re-vaccinating.
My father would religiously get the flu shot every year, and without fail he continually got sick. It was not until he came down with alzheimers that we could stop the shots. Since then he has never been sick, but I wonder sometimes about the cause of this disease.
You want to be healthy, eat properly, sleep as much as your body requires, exercise but not too much, get out in the sun occasionally,keep clean but don’t go overboard, stay away from drugs, drink seldom or low amounts, don’t smoke to toke, keep an inquisitive mind and remember to be happy.
My family has a history of long lives as long as everyone stayed on the proper course. The city people who vaccinated, believed packaged food was just as good, used drugs to regulate their bodies, and did all their exercising in a gym, or not at all, died younger than the average.
Proper sanitation, good diets, and health awareness have done more to extend our lives than any green goop in a syringe. Did I mention I went to medical school?
Medical science cannot fix stupid, but with the right steps you can live stupidly longer.
“50 million lives lost via abortion in the USA.”
Fifty million people who didn’t vote for Obama, 50 million fewer progressives.
So, what’s the down side?
I find it very interesting that there are many here who are quoting the L.A. tabloid when for the most part they would deride the rag. Further, to have a position against the status quo is one I have come to expect here. I never expected to find so many people brainwashed on this subject. Bottom line, most knowledge that runs contrary to the established drug culture is anecdotal and observational, because there are no trillion dollar industries willing to fund and publish the negatives.
The evidence supporting the published conclusions are not founded and the claimed success rate also correlates with improvements in diet, health, insulated homes, and body awareness. A healthy, well nourished, rested, and prepared body does not need a vaccine. The genetic exceptions should not be the norm.
cgh said: “Prior to modern medicine, quarantine was the only effective way of preventing the spread of highly communicable diseases. As far as employment goes, if it comes down to individual choice, then I as an employer can decline to hire you if you’re not vaccinated and thus pose a risk to all the rest of my employees.”
Yes. Once upon a time not too long ago, quarantine was indeed the only way to prevent the spread of -fatal- diseases. We have all been raised in the post-antibiotic world, where not much of anything is fatal anymore, so we don’t understand the reasons why the Victorians built so many “sanatorium” hospitals. We also don’t get the “no spitting” laws, or for the most part the public health laws still on the books.
The problem is, as Kate points out above, that people like Dr. Bob can’t or won’t accept their own -PERSONAL- responsibility for the collective health of the people where they live. Their actions in refusing vaccines for childhood diseases adversely affect everyone around them.
Polio is an excellent example of a disease that still exists in the world only because some people are IDIOTS. My entire profession, physical therapy, was invented to take care of children who survived polio. The entire knowledge we have of muscle testing and muscular exercise was invented to keep those polio victims alive and make them as functional as they could be.
Polio is making a comeback in Pakistan because of pureblind fools who think religion and poitics trumps Reality ™. They won’t be the ones who have to pay the piper when the hospitals of Pakistan are filled up with half-crippled children.
So I have a great deal of sympathy for people who want to go over to the likes of Dr. Bob’s house with a SWAT team and inoculate his children and himself at gun point.
But then we have the cautionary tale of the Soviet Union and China, 100 million dead between them. Those kinds of numbers really command attention.
I find it reasonable that the common people, meaning Us Guys, should be able to take effective individual and collective action to prevent being harmed by morons who won’t do the right thing for whatever moronic reasons they may have.
This is no different than carrying a gun to prevent murder/rape/robbery, in principle.
A healthy, well nourished, rested, and prepared body does not need a vaccine.
Doctor, if my kids are healthy, well nourished, rested … then we need not worry about that whole polio\smallpox thing?
That’s more than enough evidence to convince me! Thank you for unbrainwashing this humble citizen.
I think we need to differentiate between vaccines against contagious diseases (e.g. MMR) and lifestyle diseases (e.g. HPV). For the former you are reducing the herd immunity and putting others at risk (what the diagrams show). In the latter case there are alternatives e.g. for HPV don’t have unprotected sex with multiple partners, get pap smears, etc.
What is concerning with the HPV vaccine is the aggressive promotion of it by the government of Ontario. My daughter is in grade 8 so we saw this first hand. After we were sent the approval form we investigated the issue and after my wife discussed the pros and cons with my daughter she decided to wait and decide (since she can catch up by grade 12). Two weeks after handing in the form opting out my wife got a call from the local health department; the nurse asked why we opted out and my wife explained; the nurse wasn’t able to counter the arguments other than repeatedly state that this was recommended by the ministry of health; and the conversation ended with my wife reiterating that we aren’t approving. When the first shot was to be administered all the girls in the class were taken to the nurses office. I have no problem with this since it masks identifying who is or isn’t getting the shot. But according to my daughter, once the health nurses got a hold of the girls who weren’t getting the shot they started to apply pressure to the girls including insisting that they call their mothers. My daughter stood up to them and refused. The other girls called and the mothers had to argue with the nurses to reaffirm their positions. I found this very disturbing especially as the GofO isn’t providing balanced information for parents and their daughters (never mind the sons are being ignored). Note: my daughter’s GP has no issue with the decision so again why is the government so enthusiastically pushing this.
Dear Dr. Bob: Clearly many of the kool aid drinkers here abouts are a little too wrapped up by brain cramps. Here’s an even better one for you… In a lunch conversation a couple of years ago I was speaking with the former HEAD of the public health vaccination programs for two G7 English speaking countries (one of which was NOT the USA). I asked him straight up what his opinion was on the vaccine issue. He replied that the only vaccine he thought was worth the risk was small pox and he took it and got it for his children and family. The others, in his double PhD. and lifetime in public health opinion were not worth the risk. I guess he probably didn’t know what he was talking about :). As to your concern about Alzheimer’s and flu shots, several years ago I saw a correlational study that showed, all things being equal, a five-fold increase for Alzheimer’s for participants who had received at least five annual flu shots compared to those who had no shots. As to Andrew Wakefield, he recently re-did his MMR study on apes (or monkies) and replicated his results…but you won’t read it in JAMA (or the Lancet). Like Edward Snowden, I guess he must be working for the Russians :)…nothing to see here citizen, move along now.
Oz, check your facts. Flu (influenza), measles, and polio are all caused by viruses.
One can argue anything anecdotally, “My friend’s son got vaccinated and then he got hit by a train — proof that vaccines can kill ya!” The epidemiological evidence is overwhelming that vaccination against childhood illness is effective. Unvaccinated individuals serve as reservoirs who can transmit disease to the most vulnerable as exemplified by the deaths of infants too young to be vaccinated against pertussis dying of the disease contracted from older, unvaccinated individuals.
In the third world, failure to vaccinate by choice is particularly heartbreaking since nutritional (especially protein) deficiencies can make the course of preventable diseases disastrous as for example the deaths of children from measles.
Life is about playing the odds. Over domestication breeds complacency. But mother nature can be a real b!tch, as she was for most of human history.
I find it funny how the usual crowd here is totally anti government, anti- large corporation, and preaching individual rights but embrace the left wing attitude as soon as they can when someone disagrees with their brainwashed ideology. How can you embrace freedom and demand someone assimilate and comply based upon your opinions? One comment talks about immunity wearing off? Another talks about their vaccinated kids becoming infected? Another talks about a SWAT forcing vaccinations upon the non- vaccinated? Another one uses the rise of polio in a third world country that has sanitation issues up the ying yang and thinks the comparison has merit?
Too many are making assumptions and not paying attention. Next time, you see your local doctor ask him for a pamphlet on the side effects of any of these drugs. Not available. Ask yourself, what happens when you mix drugs together? How about 20 different drugs at a time? How about 20 drugs on a very young and still undeveloped immune system? Check into incidences of SIDS in early age vaccinated countries verses countries that vaccinate after 5 years old.
Education on the matter here is sorely lacking, and quite frankly, trying.
Agree entirely, Phantom. The notion of personal responsibility for preventing harm to others is what too many libertarians miss. Freedom does not mean freedom to inflict on others.
And yes, I remember polio well. I’m just old enough to remember a number of schoolmates in very early grade school suffering from that, braces and all.
As to the totalitarian motif, there are some mandatory requirements for living in a civilized society. One of the most important is that as an individual we do not present a mortal threat to those around us. That means vaccination or absolute quarantine. Some idiot above sneered at a mere 0.3 per cent mortality rate. As far as I’m concerned, that’s 0.3 per cent too much to be tolerated by the casual indifference to the health and welfare of others.
Thomas Hobbes pointed out that absolute freedom is as much a form of slavery as absolute tyranny. The secret to a free society is to strike the balance in deciding those things which can freely be left to individual choice and those which cannot.