Resurrection, for some Marines:
9mm or .45 cal: Which pistol should USMC have?
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Impact on the Body
The 9mm round has been statistically shown to have a better penetration of the human body including full penetration. The downside is that not all of the kinetic energy is transmitted to the body and is lost upon exit. The 45 round however, has a very good chance of transmitting 100% of its energy to the body and not penetrating. Hence “knock down power.” This debate has raged hotly for decades on these specific points.
Tactics
The pro M9 crowd says having a fast round improves accuracy and the increased capacity of the smaller round provides more shots per magazine which could be a lifesaver.
The pro 45 crowd says that where you would need only 1 round of a 45 you would need 2 or more from an M9.
When the M9 was tested, it was not tested on insurgents wearing body armour that were hopped up on drugs. I say this to try and level the debate on this issue from different eras. To play devils advocate, if you were only shooting at an enemy wearing a couple layers of shirts, then the 9mm could have worked with a double tap.
Now that I have made my position clear on the 45 cal. for general combat ops, I would hope to generate some buzz from individuals who have had trigger time on this issue in theatre…
All great comments here, and most are right, in that, the caliber debate will never be settled because it is a matter of personal choice.
That being said, I use a different caliber that has only been around a few years. I have been a gunner for most of my life, and I reload my own ammunition, so I know the limitations of my favorite pistol caliber. The .45 ACP. That is why I reload and practice with a lot, the .45 Super round. For those who don’t know what that is, it is a 230 grain jacketed hollow point moving at 1150 to 1250 FPS. Yes, it is a handful, but I have shot it so much, that double tap is routine. Yes, I am a big guy, and yes, this caliber requires a big gun. Is it for everyone? No.
I just know that when the hollow point expands on this round it is almost the diameter of a quarter, and I have shot it into ballistic gelatin and it makes a very ugly wound track about 14″ deep.
If you were to buy the ammunition for this caliber, it is very expensive, if you could even find it. Since I reload my own, it is a viable option.
Did I add any info to this debate? Probably not.
Did I enjoy reading this post and comments? YES.
I just know that the gun in my night stand is loaded with 7 rounds of this goblin medicine, and I have no doubt it will do the job should the need arise.
Did I say how much I love this place? 🙂
Big 1911 fan.
Knew two guys over one ex wife. New boy friend shoots the seperated hubby in the torso 3 times with the forth to the head. All in the house , yelling shooting caught on the females 911 call. The deceased was known as a psycho, drunk, 5’7″(ish) tough guy. And he was.
Fit, psyched young males( and deer, elk, etc ) can take multiple HV rifle rounds to the chest/lung and still keep going for a surprising bit.
So, I’ll take luck and lots of range time over the inside baseball of changing gun fashions.
9mm is NATO Standard, so supply overseas will be a pain if using .45acp
NATO 9mm is designed to work in a SMG so is loaded fairly hot, the FMJ bullet will penetrate cover very well compared to the 45 FMJ, put will have less terminal effectiveness. Military can not use JHP like the police.
Pistol rounds use 4-5grs of powder, rifles use 35-45grs of powders. Guess which one has more power?
“Pistol rounds use 4-5grs of powder, rifles use 35-45grs of powders. Guess which one has more power?”
I agree, but my pistol rounds use 10 to 12 grains of powder, and my rifle rounds are closer to 60…
Slow burning powders are the shiznit…
I just know that the gun in my night stand is loaded with 7 rounds of this goblin medicine – Texas.
In Canada the only medicine we’re allowed in our night stand comes from a pharmacy.
“In Canada the only medicine we’re allowed in our night stand comes from a pharmacy.”
Yes, I know, and I feel sorry for you. Yet, I do know of a couple of friends in Hull and rural Ontario who ignore that lame and dangerous law.
In Texas, the Castle Doctrine allows me to protect myself and my own, because the police are only there to clean up the mess and fill out a report.
Fascinating though the discussion is, I think a lot of people are missing something.
The issue is not which of the two rounds in question is a better man-stopper. For stopping people in their tracks, the .45 wins hands-down every time. Agreed. But that`s not the question.
Nor is it whether or not this round or that can be improved by using more propellant, less propellant or a lighter bullet or a hollow-point bullet. Yup, it’s all possible. All of it also misses the point of the article.
Nor is the article about which is the best cartridge for experts. Experts can shoot well with virtually any round. Given extensive training and frequent practice, an 85lb women could presumably become proficient with the .454 Casull or .500 S&W Magnum. So what?
The central question in the article is which of two standard ball rounds (.45 ACP with a 230gr FMJ or 9x19mm with STANAG 108-128gr bullets) do you choose to equip an entire military force, one in which the majority of pistol-carrying troops are *not* experts and will *not* ever have more than the most basic level of training and practice.
One more thing-
U.S. soldier Colby Buzzell wrote a book about his war time experiences in the book “Killing Time in Iraq.”
He was a M240 machine gunner on a Stryker. Buzzell’s story describes what happened when two platoons (a platoon usually has 25-30 guys) opened up on an Iraqi from near-point-blank range.
“Two United States Army infantry platoons were shooting at this guy, almost all of them awarded expert marksmanship badges, armed with semi-auto and fully automatic weapons, with some of the best sights on their weapons that money could buy. Thousands and thousands of rounds were expended, some shooting at near-point-blank range, and only a couple rounds hit this individual, and in non-lethal areas.”
The Iraqi survived.
The point is, you have to hit what you are shooting at.
When the adrenaline is flowing freely, as it would in probably any lethal encounter, it’s not so easy. Did you read about the incident in New York City last week? A murderer at the Empire State building was shot to death by two cops. The cops were 8-10 feet away from the perp, and yet on the crowded street managed to shoot 9 innocent bystanders in the process. These were seasoned, well-trained officers.
The NYPD uses 9mm handguns with 124 grain +P jacketed hollow points.
Mikeg81 said: “Jeez, the C7/M16 isn’t a Lee-Enfield or Mosin-Nagant in terms of length.”
My brief stint in the reserves was in 1976, our issue rifle was the FN-C1 so that’s what I think of when I think carrying it around. Bit of a handful in the mess, really hard to dig a hole with one strapped to your back. Kinda loud in confined spaces too.
Never had any experience with the C7/M-16 except to shoot other people’s at the range. My .223 rifle was a Valmet M-76, it would have been a issue to carry -everywhere-, particularly work details and in vehicles. Doable but tiring.
Bottom line for me, if its racked three feet away it isn’t helping you should Ahmed the New Guy decide to go postal. A .45 is going to be firmly attached to your @ss, not in a rack. Convenience like that is not to be despised, IMHO. But then I’m not out in the ‘Stan doing it, and so could be wrong.
.45: Designed to put down charging Moro tribesmen with one shot. Does it well.
9mm: Designed as a scaled-up Officer’s sidearm. looks pretty.
Texas said: “In Texas, the Castle Doctrine allows me to protect myself and my own, because the police are only there to clean up the mess and fill out a report.”
Yeah. In Dumbtario the police are there to chuck you in the penalty box for unnecessary roughness if you dare to hurt the poor robber. I wonder if my flashlight will get me jailed some day.
That’s why I vacation in Arizona. So I can be reminded what freedom feels like once a year.
I’ve been shooting handguns for 35 years, and 10mm for 20 years. 10mm is the upper limit for controlability. You can shoot rapid fire, but it takes a lot of practice.
1911s are like 1969 Chevelles. They’ll always be popular, and they go like hell. Glocks are like 2012 Acura sedans. As much as we hate to admit it, they’ll outperform ’69 Chevelles, any day of the week. Revolvers are like pickup trucks. They still have their place, but hard to park, and not very economical.
I own one or more of all the above. In a pinch, I’d grab the Glock 20. The only drawback to the Glock, it takes much longer to learn how to shoot it.
OK MY 2 CENTS.
I’m a former a Nam combat medic. Because I flew. I only carried a side arm. 45 thank you.
Having been shot down once during a medevac mission. I had to use my 45. The only point I can add to all of this. The bad guys once hit, didn’t get back up.
When I came back to the states and worked as Fire/Medic, again I saw saw shooting/wounds with all types of rounds like 9MM. Big round kept them down. Small rounds they got back up!
Phantom at 1:11; I agree double. Before the big “O” I always felt the same way when South of the border.
coach; I have no real combat experience but what I like about a revolver is that in a tight situation you are guaranteed to get off at least one shot. Not so sure with an automatic. And the revolver in good hands will shoot 6 rounds faster.
Coach >
Hard to beat a fully customized rod over a factory job in expert hands of course though.
I’d love the idea of owning a 10mm; .357mag is one of my favorite pistol cartridges and like the idea of similar performance in a slim semi-auto (not the clunky Desert Eagles). I tried a fellows Colt Delta Elite out at the range back in 86’ and couldn’t hit a steel pie plate at 15 yards with it. Was simply too much snap coupled with the slide recoil (for me at the time), so never looked back. No doubt that Glocks lower slide axis would help a bunch.
My GP-100 .357mag is a tack driver, I also use the same loads in a lightweight Marlin 1894 lever action carbine that accompanies me nearly everywhere, especially when camping/ fishing. (Normally 125gr revolver & 158gr carbine both interchangeable and safely handloaded to switch around if wanted).
Bought my first “plastic gun” early this year as a changeup, a S&W M&P9 (polymer grip, stainless slide). It was either that or the Glock, but what sold me on the S&W was ergonomics, and a closer grip form to my accustomed 1911’s/ CZ’s. It’s a damned fine shooting little pistol though and I now get what people rave about with the Glocks ecetera. The only complaint I have with it, is that it’s extremely utilitarian and sort boring in an odd way. It just does what it’s supposed to do, no bells & whistles.
I just realized that mentioning guns … “in theatre” … has taken on a whole new connotation
Skippy-ouch! I cringed when I glanced at that, too.
I prefer to use something called a “laser”
With all the figures on sub/supersonic, grains of weight, energy transmission, and so on, if given the choice, I’d rather take a .22 hit than get hit by a broadhead from my crossbow.
Some rapper took 9 rounds of 9mm and survived. So obviously, it’s the lesser round.
He wouldn’t take 9 rounds of .45 and survive.
I have never found a 45ACP that was comfortable to fire and I am not consistent firing an uncomfortable weapon. The M-9 has had its problems, the Sig that the US military uses is an excellent weapon – I am an excellent shot with both. All of that said I like my 45GAP and my Ruger 22 (cheap ammo). I have a Taurus 9mm that I have used to get my skillset up so I felt better about the M9 when I had to check it of the weapons locker. It doesn’t really matter what the caliber is if you can’t hit what you are shooting at. If you can use either effectively there is no need to double tap or win their hearts and minds…