Continued….
It fits their pattern of “price no object” behavior perfectly. I didn’t think they’d be wasteful enough to burn JHP at the range, nobody does that. But it seems I was wrong.
Continued….
It fits their pattern of “price no object” behavior perfectly. I didn’t think they’d be wasteful enough to burn JHP at the range, nobody does that. But it seems I was wrong.
Malice and stupidity…who knew?…
You practice with the same thing you are going to shoot for real. Mind you Social Security Agents might find that a BB gun suffices to bring down criminal pensioners.
The Social Security Agency is arming its employees to be ready if Obamacare’s Death Panels call for backup support.
No explanation offered by government is true – there us always hidden motive – in this case athe the very least they took this ammo out of circulation so citzens can’t stock pile it.
DHS has purchased 1.4 billion rounds of ammo in past year. rumors say some will go to Al-Quada rebels in Syria. back door style.
http://www.naturalnews.com/036847_ammo_purchases_government_stockpiling_media_lies.html
well at least I can stop worrying about a man made pandemic.
This is scary..
Well, I have approximately 5 or 6K of ammo in handgun and long gun caliber out in the garage. I shoot about twice a month.
A fair amount is milsurp, i.e., 303 Brit, 7 and 8mm Mauser, 7.62×39, 7.62x54R and 7.62 NATO that I’ve snagged over the 20+ yrs that I’ve been actively collecting/shooting. But there’s also a lot of 9mm, .38 Spl and .357 Mag
So, my thought is that amount for an federal agency is no big deal. The surprise is when I read bureaucracies such as Social Security and Weather Service are buying it. I didn’t know they needed to be armed.
“Train as you fight” is the doctrine in the US military. Soldiers and marines use the same ammunition at the practice range that they will use in combat. This doctrine has obviously carried over to various government departments.
Also, remember how litigious our southern neighbours are. If a department were to issue reloaded ammunition for practice and there was a hang fire or an overpressure charge that caused injury or death, then that department would face a multi-million dollar lawsuit and be accused of endangering it’s own officers to save money. If hardball bullets were used for training and one hardball was left in the magazine and fired at and through a bad guy and then continued down the street to kill little Beckie as she ate her ice cream cone the lawsuit would be in the millions.
Those of us who live in the real world without taxpayers buying our ammunition reload our own ammunition for economy or buy a 22rf conversion kit for our pistols so it costs pennies a shot rather than a dollar. To be frank, if the government were to subsidize my range time, I’d buy the brand spankin’ new ammo.
So, we’ve gone from, “The sky is falling!” shrieks of an impending Obamanazi coup to… (drumroll please) the feds are spending waaay too much money for their target practice ammo. (And even then there are quite possibly reasonable explanations.)
The New World Order takeover may ideed coming, but if this is the best that the Truthers can come up with for ‘evidence’, then they might as well stay in Mom’s basement.
There are some possible non-tinfoil reasons for the distributed purchases as well. The US is going into an election in which budget is an issue and departmental budgets are constrained. Some of this could due to anticipated departmental budget freezes which inevitably occur when elections and transitional governments occur. Ammunition manufacture is at industry capacity and has been for a number of years – you might also be seeing order queueing in order to obtain timely supply.
With regard to the need, with increased regulation comes increased need for enforcement. Whether you enforce criminal codes or granny flats, there is a need for officer safety. Americans are self-armed to a much greater extent than Canadians; the risk of armed conflict in any US law enforcement has higher potential. In Canada, we mostly only arm the police, but we have thousands of other law enforcement professionals who face just as siginificant a risk as any police officer does in their enforcement duties, without much self-defence capability. In Canada, the result is lax enforcement, in the US, not so much.
As to the need for enforcement, you have to have that discussion with the politicians.
174000 rnds for 295 agents works out to a case of 500+ each for quarterly training and operational deployment. Canadian feds are allotted 50 for yearly requals and another box for operations.
The numbers are not greatly out of whack, but the notion that anoter govt department can do no knock swat entries is.
tom@drum, exactly. It is to wonder why government agencies such Social Security and the Weather Service have a need to be armed.
There are allot of idiots out there that don’t think a highly militarized police state is a problem.
F’ck em, if we’re wrong our democracy’s are safe, if their wrong we are all screwed. I for one say keep those that help destroy western civilization in mind, and show no mercy if and when it comes apart.
I just bought 1500 9mm JHP projectiles for reloading last week right here in Ontario.
My normal 9mm plated RN were out of stock. The JHP were $15 cheaper than the RN.
Ken (Kulak) @1032 – In Canada, if a welfare cheat scheme is discovered, the welfare folks ask the local or provincial police or the RCMP (depending on jurisdiction) to do the arrests. In the USA, the SSA does it for themselves. Odd system, to our way of thinking, but it’s how they do things. WRT the Weather Office, that was a typo; the ammo was intended for another small department with a mandate to do fisheries enforcement. If you’ve got centralized purchasing, it’s an easy enough mistake.
Just a ponder, when the president tells all those federal law enforcement officers to shoot republican aka non0democratic party members demonstrators, will they follow orders or obey the constitution which they pledged to uphold?
I wouldn’t get too hung up on the hollow point thing. .357 Sig is a combat round, and is already much more expensive to feed. 9mm and .40 S&W are better choices for government agencies, for that very reason. Someone in the procurement division must have been influenced by a Sig Sauer sales rep.(even though the caliber is also available in other brands).
Knight 99 seems to have zeroed in on the real problem. Too many armed government agencies.
I’m with Knight 99 and coach – there are entirely too many armed federal employees. And also an affirmative nod to the commenter who pointed out that all of those regulations on the books need to be regulated.
I imagine that the regulators likely remember the Miami shootout on 1986 where 8 FBI agents were outgunned by two bank robbers. 2 FBI agents are no more and 5 were injured in the shootout. Also, when the LAPD was outgunned by two bank robbers in the late 1990s and a bunch of cops ended up dead or wounded.
So, with those type memories in their minds, when they go out to “regulate” they’re armed and likely well-armed. Sign of the times, I suppose.
The mindset is like the Texas Ranger who, when asked why he was carrying a .45 on his hip, answered, “Because my 12 gauge won’t fit in the holster.”
On a shirt: beaureu of alcohol, tobacco, firearms should be a convienience store, not a government agency.
“Train as you fight”
Well then what’s with all these faggy PAPER targets?
As Ive said before. Its not the guns I worry about, its his laws that have changed America.
All power now flows through his hands, including those that should not. The power to summarily arrest citizens is the most brazen. Controlling their health as we all know in Canada, controls you as an individual or a Province its rights.
Maybe the Mexican’s are running low on ammo.
Big Bob from KY >
Exactly.
For good reason the standing Roman army was not allowed to enter the gates of ancient Rome. Likewise the US passed The Posse Comitatus Act preventing Federal US troops from legally exerting its force on the American population.
Today the Federal government arms its bureaucratic departments to the teeth, while state, county, and municipal police forces have nearly enough armament and firepower to take on a Mid East country.
A few outspoken “commenters” who seemed to have popped out of the woodwork on these particular threads screaming about “conspiracy nuts” for pointing some of these obvious peculiarities are indeed society’s sheeple. They are the spineless loons telling all the other sheeple to go to lay down and sleep with them, clueless of the wolf packs around them.
The Patriot Act and Obamba’s recent signing of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) should have America’s Sheep Dogs, along with patriot military and police members at attention. Too hell what these online idiots have to say, tyranny is the normal behavior of governments that are allowed to get away with it. The US was born from it, and needs to guard against its return by the people, not the elitists bureaucrats, and not by the loony naysayer’s who double as useful idiots.
Come to think of it, Canadian Border Guards are just being armed. Previously they were not to resist but to call the local police.
In Alberta there is suddenly a debate because a local Peace Officer was killed. These guys function as traffic cops (or dog catchers etc. etc.) but aren’t armed. If they get over their heads the RCMP are dispatched.
The US uses any excuse to create an additional armed police force. Canada just has most of it’s enforcement branches call the police.
to “train as you fight” is nonsensical
the armed service (USA) use paintball facilities to “train” combatants before they are shipped out
training is two fold, one to aquire accuracy, two psychological, to mentally condition one, and niether requires the same amo “as you fight”
there could be two reasons that have not been mentioned yet, one is logistics, the other is telegraphing intent. If you normally train with solid and then change to expanders you “warn” of your intent
also a third reason is that you rotate inventory if you use the same amo for everything, thusly damaged goods and containers are eliminated in process
Kate, thanks for the linkage! Late to the party here, but lets have a go.
People above have been saying “you train the way you fight”.
The usual practice for cops and security guys is hardball on the range, hollow points on duty. The reason is purely and simply cost. Combat quality JHP costs triple or more what hardball costs. Feeding of ammunition and performance on the range are close enough to identical for government work. 100% identical for revolvers. Arguments for shooting duty ammo fall flat in the face of that three-to-one cost ratio. Three guys can qualify with hardball for one with JHP.
I’ve been shooting since the 1970’s, I’ve talked to cops and soldiers from all over the USA and Canada, nobody shoots duty ammo at the range except to verify function of their duty piece. For that they usually get issued ten rounds if they’re lucky.
Except the US federal alphabet soup crowd, according to their media releases. They have such amazing training budgets, they say, that they can afford to burn dollar-per-round combat ammunition at the range for quarterly qualification. Which is completely nuts.
And people wonder why the US government is broke.
I still want to know why all these outfits have SWAT teams though. Department of Education SWAT? Dept. of Housing and Urban Development SWAT? What’s up with that?
I see some Canadians are overlooking a basic fundamental when it comes to why the US does not do things the same way Canada does when it comes to Federal level police agency size and powers.
Both the US and Canada comprise roughly the same land area of just under 10 million square kilometers. However the US has almost 10 times the population that Canada does. Now imagine how you guys would react if someone decided to expand the RCMP to 10 times its manpower size. To go from roughly 20,000 sworn members to 200,000 sworn members. Would you want that much power vested in just one agency? Remember to keep in mind that the FBI has only about 14,000 sworn members for that huge population.
On that topic should we here in the US be wondering why Canada needs such a large Federal police force? You guys have such a tiny population why do you need an agency that is almost a third larger then the FBI? Think about that perspective before getting hyper about the SSA having members that are actually sworn US Marshals that go out and arrest fraud rings.
Oh and for the people wising off about pensioners, keep in mind that the SSA also handles Medicare and SSI payments, not just the oldtimers Social Security payments. There is a percentage of young people that get classified as “disabled” through fraud that collect Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, disability payments and other related federal and state level welfare. Many of those same people also traffic in ID theft and drugs. Real funny when that agent goes out to investigate who stole Granny Smith’s ID and was scamming her Medicare and Social Security and find it’s some guy cooking meth. Real fun when that guy starts shooting just because a “fed” showed up. See the criminal element in the US doesn’t care if that person is from the SSA or the FBI, whether they carry a gun or not. That person is a “fed” and is there to end their criminality period.
Then for the ones saying it’s to keep the ammo from citizens. OMG please get a grip and do some simple math and some research. All you had to do was google “ammo sales” and see how the Democrats have been trying for years to restrict how much a private citizen can buy. This has led to a major increase in both gun sales and ammo sales to civilians. Check the gun blogs people and you will see that the shortage in calibers outside of 5.56mm is tied to civilian purchases. The 5.56mm shortage is the US Army replenishing it’s stocks that it has expended over the years in Iraq and Afstan. That isn’t government spin that is from the major maker of .223 and 5.56 ammo.
You guys have such a tiny population why do you need an agency that is almost a third larger then the FBI?
~boballab
You remember how in the Andy Griffith show the town of Mayberry has a Sheriff and a Deputy?
Well in Canada, ‘Mayberry’ has a post manned by a couple of RCMP Constables.
That’s why the RCMP is a third larger than the FBI.
Knight 99: “A few outspoken “commenters” who seemed to have popped out of the woodwork on these particular threads screaming about “conspiracy nuts” for pointing some of these obvious peculiarities are indeed society’s sheeple. They are the spineless loons telling all the other sheeple to go to lay down and sleep with them, clueless of the wolf packs around them.”
How typical. If you’ve nothing else to say, accuse those who don’t agree with your tales as “sheeple” and “spineless loons.”
We have a openly announced small – and in context it is small – purchase of ammo, typical of an amount normally used for routine training. First it’s touted as ‘evidence’ of an imminent end-of-the-free-world takeover by fascist/socialist/NWO (choose your own label) government forces. Then it turns out to be, oh yes, just for training. Surprise, surprise. Yet anybody who has said that from the beginning is, “clueless.”
There may well be a deep, dark, sinister uubersecret conspiracy to strip freedom from us all. If a modest buy of training ammo is all the logic you can show for it, they have nothing to worry about.
The RCMP is proportionally larger than the FBI for a number of reasons.
First off, it provides policing at the provincial (and often by default local) levels in most provinces and territories. If the FBI was tasked to do speed traps in Idaho and Alaska, it would be a fair bit bigger.
Secondly, the RCMP has a broader role due to the fragmentation of powers in the USA. Investigating crime nation-wide is the FBI’s responsibility. Drug enforcement has the Drug Enforcement Agency as lead agency. VIP protection falls under the US Secret Service. The USA has a separate Federal Air Marshal Service. Guns, booze and tobacco are primarily under the ATF. Here, all of those tasks fall to the RCMP.
This pluralization of police forces is nothing new; it’s been the way they do business for ages. Obama didn’t start it, neither did Bush.
(This fragmentation also happens in Canada; it’s just at a much lower scale. In Canada there are no less than 15 federal LE agencies, most of which nobody ever hears about, plus the CN Rail and CP Rail police forces. We see the RCMP and CATSA regularly. We know of the Military Police and the Correctional Services. Some of us even know that both Senate and Parliament have their own separate (armed) cops. But who on the other hand knows that there is a separate and distinct national Battlefields Park Police in Canada?)
If facts matter, look at the 2011 Small Arms Survey out of Switzerland (http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/publications/by-type/yearbook/small-arms-survey-2011.html). In terms of police per capita, the Exited States rank rather *below* the world average. Among others, France, Germany, Greece and Spain all have more cops per citizen.
Bob >
How typical indeed. What can one argue against your incessant denial that there is a huge militarized police buildup in the US? The information is all around you, this arming of mundane government bureaucracies is but a small piece of it.
I’ve not debated you with this because you’re obviously not debatable. You’ve steered the argument entirely around a small amount of ammo for law enforcement, bashed people who question why these agencies should be armed at all, and then contradicting yourself with comments like,
“There may well be a deep, dark, sinister uubersecret conspiracy to strip freedom from us all.” – BOB
To borrow your ridiculous comment from the other day,
“As to why the DOE needs its own cops, seach me. The Yanks seem to like every agency, department, organization and institution to have its own separate, independent police force (by whatever name)…..” BOB Aug 16 @1:19pm
Yea, well BOB some people do give a shit, and do ask questions. If you want to bury your head in the sand and do what is told of you – Have at it.
Well, a “huge militarized police buildup” would imply that there are far, far more SWAT teams etc than in past. Neither you nor anybody else on this subject have shown a shred of evidence that that is the case.
Nor has any evidence that there are more cops in the USA than the international norm.
Nor has there been any logical explanation of why having many smaller police forces is worse than having the same number of cops in one massive force.
As a matter of fact, there’s precious little evidence for the doom claims at all.
Indeed, what we have seen to date are dire warnings based mainly, so far as anyone can tell, on personal fear, on the conviction that there *are too!* monsters under the bed.
If I have steered the discussion around the ammo, it’s because the ammo was the topic of the discussion and people like you have repeatedly, in violation of both evidence and logic, tried to twist that ammo buy into evidence for yet another conspiracy theory.
If a person was accused of being a witch in the 1500s, everything – everything – about them was twisted into evidence of their being in league with Satan. Did they have a pet? Proof! it was the Devil’s familiar. No pet? Proof! Satan had withdrawn his familiar to protect it. Did they have a mole that didn’t bleed when pricked with a needle? Proof! it was the Devil’s mark. No mole? Proof! the Devil had given them a perfect body.
Of course, anybody trying to defend them, trying to stop the murderous fantasy, was clearly a heritic and a devil-worshiper themselves.
The CTs have adopted the same attitude, the same mind-set. It matters not what happens – it’s ‘proof’ of a govt conspiracy. I dread the day Obama changes his hair style; there will be CTs scurrying for their bunkers, convinced it’s the long-awaited ‘Signal’, the one that will launch the massive hidden armies of UN troops, Freemasons, Grey Aliens, black helicopters and (let’s not forget them) ” militarized police” against kindergartens and corner stores.
And, of course, those not instantly buying into such baseless (‘baseless’ – without proof, ie) fantasies are heritics and devil-worshipers themselves. Fortunately, the stake has been done away with (presumably until the day the Emperor Barack the 1st is enthroned) and all that they can be subjected to are invective, personal insults and epithets. (‘Sheeple’ – how clever! Did you think of it yourself?)
Have fun in your world. I’m done.
Bob said: “Then it turns out to be, oh yes, just for training. Surprise, surprise.”
Seriously Bob, what agencies do you know that -train- with the expensive hollow point stuff? American city police forces don’t, state police forces don’t, private security companies don’t. I don’t think even the FBI does. Nobody does.
Except these federal alphabet soup idiots, apparently. Pardon me for expecting federal training managers to fire a grey cell, looks like they don’t.
Then you said: “But who on the other hand knows that there is a separate and distinct national Battlefields Park Police in Canada?”
Do they have a SWAT team? Because the US Parks Service does. More than one, as it happens. Shouldn’t they be calling the state police for SWAT? Police is a state/provincial function, isn’t it?
The proliferation of militarized police services is a major concern in the USA and Canada, Bob. The Founders of the USA held that a standing Army was a hazard to freedom, and I’ve seen nothing that proves them wrong. You get enough armed men in federal police forces, then the step between the government serving society and society serving the government is a lot shorter.
Bobby, bobby, bobby you seem a little out of joint with being labeled a Sheeple.
Maybe you need to take a reality chech and go back to each thread you’ve commented on in the last week, and see who’s been pointing fingers and name calling first, on each and every thread..
It’s a prime example of why your arguments are all baseless.
Of course you don’t see any evidence other than your own opinion, you don’t look beyond those rose colored horse blinders.
Oh yea, ya better “get back to moms basement” an sulk a little now.