York University professor Thomas Klassen has written an interesting column that outlines what is certain to be a growing problem in the years ahead.
One wonders though, whether Klassen fully understands the basic math problem at hand: Can the young workers of Canada support an ever larger group of older folks who are no longer working?
More importantly:
Will that WANT to support them?
Thomas Klassen is a York University professor of political “science”, so understanding this or any other MATH problem is not his long suit.
There is ZERO requirement for any math competency in the liberal arts, which explains why so many idiots can still manage to ‘earn’ post-grad degrees in such subjects.
When you consider that most of the young people being born are the children of immigrants … from places where white Christians are scum …. I doubt their hearts nor their wallets will be into it.
We are on our own folks. Rip up that credit card and start saving.
Gold is the money of kings,
Silver is money of gentlemen,
Barter is the currency of peasants.
Debt is the currency of slaves!
I think the question you posed, Robert “Can the young workers of Canada support an ever larger group of older folks who are no longer working?” is misleading. There are many older folks who, although they may no longer be working, are self-supporting, pay taxes and they will do so until they die. There’s an implication that the moment you stop working, you somehow immediately become a drain and dependent on the system.
It also glosses over the point: that when a person dies, the government gets a big share of the assets in a lump sum. Any RRSP’s that remain will be taxed as if all that income was earned in that single year (unless there is a surviving spouse). Inheritances will be conferred on the survivors and some will be substantial. All those assets will pass on to the next generations.
There is the difficulty of pensions that will be coming due and I understand the fears about that. I’m not an economist, but I expect that much of that pension money will continue to circulate–to purchase goods and services and to pay the wages of those who are still in the workforce.
The article is making the point that governments are attempting to avoid their own culpability in managing their spending properly, by pitting one group against another. It’s a common tactic and it works. As I approach old age, I feel very uneasy by the tone of many comments and articles that portray me as greedy, useless, and a bane on the young. This doesn’t just affect policy. It affects how people see themselves and see others, and can be used to justify all sorts of ill-treatment of the targeted groups.
Older people do have responsibilities to the younger generations. They should make every effort to maintain good health. End of life interventions should be reasonable in terms of cost and benefit. If they have spare time and energy, they can volunteer for unpaid work. (Many do–in fact they provide services to other old folks like meals on wheels or transportation for the elderly.) They should manage their finances so they can support themselves and contribute throughout their lives to the taxation system that sustains the services that we all rely on. Many do.
The government’s attempts to rectify the problems by immigration might offer some hope. But it would be preferable to see that the young people we already have be fully employed and employable. I have agreed with the articles that focus on the inadequacies of our education system. We do offer too many useless university degrees that consume money and effort that would be better spent preparing young people for careers in trades and other fields. We need more jobs that create wealth rather than attempting to employ more people in government bureaucracies.
And if immigration is used as a solution, then let immigrants be contributors rather than a net drain on the country.
The answer to your question, Robert, is ‘no’.
But that won’t stop the “greedy geezers,” as Klassen calls them, doing their utmost to push for higher taxation and the dredging of the bank accounts of their working posterity so they can have retirement to grave feel-good, “free” health care and drugs.
@RITA
“And if immigration is used as a solution, then let immigrants be contributors rather than a net drain on the country”
That is the problem they come here for the free sh!t provided by the kafirs,the infidels, the dirty white chritians.
Look and france and germany , look at belgium, italy, britain. How is that mass immigration from the second and third world working out for them?
Don’t you get it they hate you , they dont want to sit down and talk to you they smile to your face but raise a knife behind your back all they are waiting for ….is numbers!!!!
*christians
In a nutsell(like the Boomers, thinking us 30 odd years old “youngsters” don’t understand the shell game)
We do, good luck getting medicare when you’re 80 Mom and Dad, signed the son that you sold out, voting for Trudeau, before I was old enough to slap you upside the head.
dwright
I commented several times about this in 2008. It was evident in the USA election that “ageism” was the battle going forward. John McCain’s treatment was excellent foreshadowing for what is to come.
The problem is… that those retiring will be attempting to access entitlements that they didn’t contribute enough for. The ire from Gen ‘X’ and younger is that we will be expected to foot the bill for these entitlements, but with the knowledge that they themselves will not be able to access the same the entitlements because of the entitlement deficit created by those older folks.
Personally, I believe the largest contributing factor is the Feminist movement, and the low reproduction rate from this generation and those that follow(Free contraceptives anyone?). Of course, there are other contributors such as a poor immigration policy that DIDN’T focus on skilled workers to fill needs, but instead focuses on ethnic groups for balkanization.
I commented years ago that I have a great fear that we will indeed see in the future old folks (individuals) being eliminated one way or another. That said, the fact that when I mention the unpaid liabilities by the boomers wrt CPP, health care, and other entitlement programs, I get lambasted by boomers at this site who gleefully acknowledge that they will crush the entire system with their entitlements and often tell me(literally) to “screw” myself and my generation.
Quite frankly, and those that have read my comments might remember, I’ve stated that the real problem with the conservative movement IS the boomers and folks older than them; who when it comes to conservatism, practice the meme “do as I say, not as I do”. You folks truly are ‘Wolfs in Sheep clothing politically speaking. Quite frankly, you can’t blame younger folks for leaning to the Left-tarded parties as the disingenuous so called “conservative” older folks occupy the so called “conservative” parties. It’s no wonder the political dynamic of western society is so f’d-up.
All of that said, if you folks would have considered my comments thoughtfully, instead of flying off the handle with silly juvenile rants, you’d see that much of what I write is often parroted here long after I’ve commented on it; and, long after I’ve been lambasted by the reactionary crowd for making those very comments. I believe there is a very grave risk for the growing population of seniors going forward. In a world where infanticide is now considered equal to abortion, and being touted as the next step in Woman’s Rights by MAINSTREAM political commenters; “Death Panels” and Death Camps for old folks are not too far off. The political rhetoric is already well underway. I seriously suggest that those of the Boomer age and older seriously reconsider their position on entitlements, and their claim to them. There desperately needs to be an open dialog wrt to this before things get out of hand.
Now… cue the big tuff SDA senior crowd to huff and puff and yell “I’m entitled to my entitlements”.
.
Indiana: ok, you’re right – once you leave the room we all adopt your wisdom as our own and never thank you for it.
Well here goes: Thanks for thinking for me. I shall ever be grateful that you pointed out the dystopia awaiting us, and I promise to amend my lazy ways RIGHT NOW.
Now, with the scales fallen from my eyes, I can see that unfunded entitlements are the root of our problems, and not the age of taxpayers.
Thank you, Indiana, I have seen the light.
Doc
For “Doc”, your comprehension is a little lacking. Just bugg’n dude.
You’ve taken my comments all wrong. I do not support this ageism argument, but I fear that we are on the road to some very dark times. Regardless of the truth of the “lazy” argument, the perception IS there, and the seeds are being sown to demonize the boomers and folks older than that. It is true that mine and younger generations have some valid grievances, but so do the boomers and older towards Gen X and younger. In my comment, I did not say that boomers and older folk must renege their share of the social safety net; but, I did say that it’s in their best interest to entertain an open dialog without the defensive reactionary posture that you’ve demonstrated, and validated my recent projection with. As it stands right now, perception is reality.
If you can’t see that you’ve done exactly what I commented I expected(I shall ever be grateful that you pointed out the dystopia awaiting us, and I promise to amend my lazy ways RIGHT NOW.)
, then that’s on you.
Furthermore, unless you are using a different nick-name, I’m not surprised that you don’t recall my comments from back then, as you are likely reasonably recent to this blog and commenting here; because, I don’t recall you debating me about this very thing when I mentioned it numerous times before, but you jumped for the bate before you thought about my comment.(If I’m wrong about this, then my apologies)
Finally, I’m not looking for kudos of any kind. But I do find it laughable when the very folks that “lambaste” me for many topics I’ve discussed here QUICKLY get in line for the bandwagon as soon as Kate(or Robert W) post’s a similar opinion or article on her site. So, throw stones if you must, but please don’t whine when you’re having your estate pillaged, when you’re sitting in front of the Death Panels that Sarah Palin opined about, or when you’re being ushered onto a train for your final destination.
Cheers
I doubt that politicians will be able to fix this problem but the reality is that under current trends worker to retiree ratio will go from 4:1 to about 2:1. Economists and other illusionists can talk about this being manageable because of its low percent of GDP increase but all costs of existing government services and all old age costs will be borne by half as many workers.
My recommendation to the young is to find jobs that 1)cannot be easily outsourced 2)do not have auto-deduct taxes. Wage-earners are going to be taxed to the hilt to pay for senior citizens vote-buying of the past, the present and the future (pharamacare??). Being self-employed and paid directly allows for more flexibility at tax time.
Geeze Indiana, does this mean I have to bring my own bullet to the death squad when I turn 65 (in 5 years)? Lord knows I’ve worked and paid taxes all this time so my children can turf me to the road. And for the record, being Canadian, when I turn 65 the magic Old Age Security payment that is supposedly “entitled”, is taxed back along with a chunk of my military pension to pay back Canada Pension Plan. So toughen up buttercup, don’t whine about the folks who played by the rules. How about your generation come up with a solution besides offing us old farts.
And stay off my lawn.
The oldsters did not play be rules – In what other area of life can you run up massive debts and unfunded entitlements using your childrens’ and grandchildrens’ future income as collateral?
tc
Maybe so.
I’ve already witnessed (indirectly) the Death Panels that SP spoke of. My mother-in-law was brought into a room with a few medical professionals and was strongly advised to “pull the plug” without surgery on her husband whom THEY put on his deathbed in the first place.
It was explained to her that the success rate was quite low (about 20%) and therefore she should not push for the expensive surgery he required. He was 78, so it’s my opinion that in the eyes of Canadian Health Care he “wasn’t worth it”. For this, and many other reasons I’m stanchly opposed to Canada’s commie care. It’s my opinion that he paid into the system his whole life and when he needed it most, was pushed aside for the sake of a hospital budget. I find it contemptible that these professionals would corner an old woman and push her in a certain direction when there was nobody else around. Furthermore, I don’t care if the success rate is 10% or 5% when the other option is death. I’ll take my 5% thank-you.
Anyways, I think Death Panels are a very real reality today, and will be more so tomorrow. SO, you can espouse your “tough-guy” nonsense as much as you want(like I said you would), but as someone said “words are wind”.
Anyways, once again, someone has misconstrued my comments as those that are assailing the entitlements of certain folks, when I’m simply trying to shine a light on an issue and am suggesting open dialog. As I’ve said before, the commenters at SDA can be just as loony as the Left-tards when the discussion about their entitlements is up for discussion. That is too bad.
I think Death Panels are a very real reality today, and will be more so tomorrow.
Posted by: Indiana Homez USA at March 2, 2012 4:14 PM
Where does a “very real reality” fit on the reality continum? Is it less than an ultimate reality and more than a sorta real reality?
In any case tell us more about the very real Death Panels today.
LC Benny, don’t confuse the majority of oldsters with the “leaders” of the western world who made the rules and didn’t think of the far future. It’s like blaming the sheep for following the shepherd. Hell, when I was growing up we learned to live with the bomb, computers were in university basements and man hadn’t stepped on the moon. Socialism was the in-thing and not too many people worried about the lack of procreation. My wife and I did our part and raised two taxpayers, although if we were as smart as the Y generation I guess we should have tried to raise enough for a baseball team.
Also while I am on a rant, when I was young being on Welfare or the dole (unemployment) was frowned upon and most tried to get off it as soon as they could. Unfortunately, those who stayed there tended to breed prolifically and those youngsters did not, for the most part, want to get ahead in life unless they were given stuff. They even changed the name of the department and killed a lot of trees in the process to remove the stigma of “unemployment”. That worked well now didn’t it. You can also draw similarities in the treatment of aboriginal peoples if you so desire.
Give a man a fish… teach him how to fish… is sound advice although the government still needs a department to co-ordinate and regulate fishing teachers.
“I have a great fear that we will indeed see in the future old folks (individuals) being eliminated one way or another.”
Fear all you want to, sport. I may look frail for the younger GENs X, Y, Z, or our kleptocratic governments to think that they could pick our pockets without a tussle: “…..Now, you must ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well do you, punk? – Clint Eastwood”
I never felt I could afford to have kids, just to produce a few more taxpayers to fund any government employee’s entitlements, while they decided for us how much of our paychecks we could keep. So, I made a choice to not have them.
So, I paid taxes then and now for someone else’s snot nosed, lippy brats who camp out in government unionised employee funded tent camps claiming “grampy stole my future”.
I got two words for you kleptocratic pussies and they aren’t thank you.
Forgive me for not proof reading my comments No60.
I gave a personal example above. If the name “death panels” bother’s you, then so be it. My interpretation of what SP is speaking of, is a committee of health official that will decide to put you on a waiting list until you die, or get irreparably ill. It’s called “rationing” U Rtard, and it’s very real; and it’s coming soon to a geezer like you!
That said, way to go arguing about tense and grammar and missing the entire point of the comment. It takes a real intellectual giant to critic someone on their writing prowess; especially when they took no time(because it’s unnecessary in this format) to look-over what they’ve read. I’m surprised you didn’t notice I forgot to close the “” on my initial comment. I’m very impressed. Consider this though, this is a bloody blog, not a place for essays or reports. There is no requirement for extensive proof reading and editing. Often, commenters are writing from their phones, and there are many typos; but it is irrelevant wrt the intent of the comment. It’s usually Progressive Dolt’s that obfuscate the issue with such haughty and petty critic’s. I’m sure everyone is very impressed with your intellect. Especially you. And let’s get something straight, I’m not calling you a “Progressive”.
I look forward to your constructive comments on my writing. And “yes” I know I spelled Retard wrong.
“Now… cue the big tuff SDA senior crowd to huff and puff and yell “I’m entitled to my entitlements”.” – me
“does this mean I have to bring my own bullet to the death squad when I turn 65 (in 5 years)?” – TC
“Fear all you want to, sport. I may look frail for the younger GENs X, Y, Z, or our kleptocratic governments to think that they could pick our pockets without a tussle: “…..Now, you must ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well do you, punk? – Clint Eastwood”” – PO’d
I think the term “schadenfreude” applies here.
That said, a bunch of admitted old guys ranting about how they’re going to “do something” to anyone is real scaaarrrryyyy. Sheesh.
Not that it matters, but in my youth, I had the opportunity to smack around a few older-guys that thought they still had it. You guys really don’t know how much you’ve lost once you pass the 40 yr mark. Heck, I’m 37 and I have no dissolutions about my fitness compared to someone in their young adulthood. It’s not a coincidence that they call people Brett Favre’s age “old man”.
You old folks are only tough in your own minds, and quite juvenile to think otherwise, and talking isht is embarrassing(for you).
I’ll be sure to cross the street next time I see a boomer with a dirty look on his face.
I could really no give a damn about the ability of younger people to pay. I’ve payed through my nose all my life and have a broken health care system for me to die in.
Because medical schools won’t admit small town white kids who would return to small towns to practice we have a United Nations of of Africans and Asians who want to be somewhere else. Since my small town born and returned doctor died I haven’t had a regular doctor so I get treated for symptoms but no-one is concerned with my long history. If family history is any indication, some time in my 70s I’ll get sick and be told to effoff and die although the weasels won’t be quite so direct.
I’ve had double the normal number of children, all of whom work hard and pay taxes as do I. Let the people who spent all their money on themselves and raised no taxpaying kids or lived off the public teat all theirs lives suffer.
Despite voting conservative all my life, if Harper carries on with his plan to screw old people out of their pension, I will lead an NDP parade of pissed off old people to dump him. We can afford anything we have to afford.
A better question …. Can the smaller number of young workers afford the bloated parasitic government bureaucracies they have been taught to depend upon?
If I was twenty years old today …. I’d be plenty pissed off with what politicians have done to our society. So in other words … I’d still recognize the stinking LIberals and the commie NDP and their ignorant supporters as the source of these problems.
That’s strange, I never had to slap any old men around at your age. I wasn’t so stupid to think I could lip off about how “grampy stole my future”, to their faces. You musta been a real toughie to do that, eh? Feel all proud about it?
Thank you. And stay off my lawn, too.
PO
That was a long time ago, and when a 45 yr old(not that old) is talking isht, and getting in your face, and asking for it, you do what you gotta do. The bottom line is, you can’t have it both ways, and play a tough-guy, and then cry victim on the back end of it. Kapeesh?
All of that said, I am mocking the “tuff guys”, and am not interesting in the internet pissing contests. I WAS simply trying to engage in a conversation about the topic at hand, and the predictable SDA crowd flies off the handle as I knew they would. Quite frankly, I’m tired of this discussion, and the misrepresentation of what I’ve written. I simply acknowledged the rift between generations about this subject, suggested a national dialog, without all the macho BS, and all I get in return is a bunch of macho BS. Go figure.
What you fake conservatives fail to understand, is I don’t want this political conflict, and have genuine concern for the future wrt to those that will be seniors. But with the reaction I get from my so called conservative and sda peers, I wonder why I bother.
have a nice weekend.
I heard the suggestion that we could reduce the surplus population by offering older men a year of free sex from escorts, after which they would be euthanized. To this I replied, “sounds good, but why kill the escorts, they might still want to work?”
I’d like to point out that the debt that we are facing today was not all incurred to feather the nests of the greedy geezers. Quite a bit of it went to purchase all sorts of goodies that benefited the subsequent generations and weren’t available to those geezers when they were growing up and raising their families. Buildings, roads, sports facilities, hospitals, schools, sewers…all these were built. Someone was paid for building them. People are employed in them. People benefit from such things even today.
As far as voting, have you kept track of the difference between what governments say and what they actually do? Has any government successfully reined in spending in any significant way? Has any government required companies and even their own departments to fully fund the pensions they promised to the employees (sometimes in lieu of other benefits)? I know we get the governments we deserve when we don’t hold them to account, but is there anything more slippery than a bureaucrat protecting his/her turf? How much do elected governments control anyway? Walmart rules.
We’ve had hopes of Mr. Harper’s government–what can he NOT accomplish with his majority? His government is doing well on some fronts. Yet we still have unbridled immigration. We still have Human Rights Commissions. And I suspect that the money he purports to carve out of the benefits of senior citizens will simply given to programs of dubious value. There’s nothing very glamorous about fixing health care when there’s a G8 summit to host.
I know we have to anticipate the challenges of the aging population, but I think more would be accomplished if all groups co-operated on finding solutions. Pitting one group against another, and demonizing the old people or complaining about the younger ones, will not accomplish much. As I age, I would like to think I can continue to contribute to society and my fellow-citizens. But if I am considered a horrible being, greedy, demanding, a speed bump on the road of everyone else’s success, I’m more likely to hunker down and protect what I’ve got for as long as I can.
What is the answer? I don’t have a problem with wealthy seniors not getting OAS. I don’t think being old should qualify you for the extra deduction on income tax. But for those who are poor and need extra help, we should not begrudge them.
It’s a short step from resenting old folks to tolerating or even advocating their mistreatment. I too was faced with the decision to ‘pull the plug’ on someone I loved very dearly. He faithfully paid all his taxes, never demanded anything from the system except a medical check-up every year, took care of himself, and when he finally needed care which would have made all the difference…it was not available. His fault? He wasn’t young.
There are many people who contribute more to the system than they will ever get out of it. That’s the way it goes. There are others who will take far more than they give–and you don’t have to be old for that. But I resent those who would demonize older people because they are no longer productive and are considered a burden and a drain on everyone else. They deserve decent treatment and should not be made to feel so threatened when they are most vulnerable.
Things are changing. You can now work until you drop dead and many boomers will have to. Retirement age with any benefits will creep up as high as necessary and freedom 55 is already freedom 85. I see more and more boomers working at Walmart and even McDonalds and the like. Some have a decent pension but just as many do not. Reverse mortgages sustain many more who are fortunate enough to have their own homes. With a little change in thinking by our politicians we could hurry things along with the elderly. Free Viagra, booze and smokes for anyone over 70. Free hooker outcalls for anyone over 75. Sell “life alerts” with non functioning batteries. Stair climbers with a catapult feature after X number of uses. Extended care homes with pillow speakers calling residents to come to heaven between 11 pm and 3 am every night. So much more if we can get politicians to think outside the box. Soylent Green is always a option. All I’m saying is we will find a solution if we try hard enough and previous generations agree when they take power in government.
meant next generations, but you knew that.
Anybody who thinks there’s going to be the same pensions in twenty-thirty years that we have now is dreaming. Boomers are going to work into their late 70’s, not retire at 65. Taxes have seen to it that nobody but the very successful has enough savings to last them the 20-30 years they’ll live after “retirement age” rolls around.
In the near term Ontario is already putting their Death Panels together. So says the scuttlebutt, anyway. That’s going to be the last gasp of single payer medicine in this country, but y’all are certainly going to see it.
The Phantom
“In the near term Ontario is already putting their Death Panels together.”
What panels? They already kick sick old people out of hospital or as I term it effoff and die. Doctors make decisions on who gets treatment and who doesn’t every day. 75 years old and need a multiple bypass? Good luck on that one.
Socialised Medicine is finished in Canada,it will likely hang on for another 10-15 years but it will gradually disappear because there won t be any money to pay for it.Ontarios Health Care budget already consumes 46% of every dollar the province takes in,in the meantime the infrastructure in this province is falling apart with no money to fix it.Even the most mathematically challenged Lieberal or Dipper if they completed grade eight should be able to recognize that.
Scar, those are exactly the dps were talking about. I see no reason a 75 year old should not get the services they’ve paid for, and that’s why I wish to opt out NOW!
Out of health care, out of cpp, out period. Its all a ponzi scheme; boomers know it, and they’re posed that they’ve been had. Period!
What’s contemptible is that they are intent on pulling their kids along for the ride. So what you’ve paid into it for 30 years! I’ve paid into it for 20. We both know its a scam. The difference is… I’m not intent on bringing those that come after down with me.
That’s *we’re* and *pissed* for the Grammer Nazi.
That’s *we’re* and *pissed* for the Grammer Nazi.