Can’t we all just agree that Karin Brothers is an appalling twit?
Gym – The belief that human nature can be made perfect if it will master its passions by reason, is a theory that taints all philosophy derived from the sentimentalities of Jean Jacques Rousseau.
Isn’t this fun?
“BTW “this shameless Popery” gave my country freedom from atheist Soviet Union,..”
Riiight, I remember that, and then the Pope used his head to smash down the Berlin Wall and that’s how his Homo fish hat was flattened.
Like it was yesterday.
sounds like a Catholic jihad to me. There aren’t enough hours in the day to argue or begin to debate the kind of ignorance set you free is spouting off, just isn’t and your way off topic anyway, flaming the thread.
But that’s ok for some of the special ones likes you.
What has anything your saying got to do with the original post? zip
I’ve dumped my BS, now I have to run.
trolls
Homo fish hat?
Good comeback.
Boy, did this thread ever deteriorate from the topic of the speakers calling for the demise of Israel and the subjection of all other faiths to Islam.
If these jackholes were pastors from Florida, would people be all over this?
Anytime someone declares Israel to be a cancer or holds up a picture of the late pedophile Ayatollah Khomeini, hold that jackhole to account. Be a bulldog about it. Make them explain to everyone around them how their outrageous claims can be true. For far too long people have let these things slide. Declare Quebec a cancer and see how far that gets you.
“I think your looking for, Those Moderate Catholics!
as a defender of their false Christian teachings and shameless Popery.”
What’s wrong with pot pourri?
This is the twenty-first century. We should no longer believe the Vatican is out to get us and we actually read things before we speak: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm
AAAAAAleeeeeexxx!!!
Where are you bud? Christians getting kicked in the noids by other Christian mostly white people, common man it’s your day, what you die or something?
This is the best chance you have ever had on SDA to convert Christians to atheism and you decide to go get a job or something. I’m deeply disappointed.
The United Church of Canada is United to the prince of this dark world – she switched alliances.
Imagine if that were a group protesting gays, lesbians,or the transgendered;not simply/just Jews? Every MSM outlet would’ve been all over it.
“The United Church of Canada is United to the prince of this dark world – she switched alliances.”
~Lucky Lori
Here is how disconnected from Christianity the United church of Canada is: http://tinyurl.com/3pe4k4w
SAMPLE The article centred on Reverend Gretta Vosper, an avowed atheist and minister in Toronto, who wrote a popular book about her disbelief a few years ago called With Or Without God. Rev. Vosper, who would be considered a heretic in any other denomination and likely dumped out on her ear, is tolerated in some quarters of the United Church, even to the point of enthusiasm. “I celebrate Gretta and others like her who cause us to think more deeply about the nature of our faith,” said Ms. Tindal, the church’s Moderator. “One of the things we’re seeing is a greater tolerance for paradox. What Gretta has done has ignited a fresh conversation and invigorated the discussion. This is in the DNA of our Church: to invite this open, deep broad conversation to be the body of Christ. “Besides, you can’t talk about post-theism without talking about God,” she explained, pointing out the positive side of having a minister who is an atheist.
[SNIP]… “I also don’t think there’s any point about worrying that next year there will fewer numbers. We see all sorts of churches in decline but we also see many people in society who now say they have no religion. Who knows where they will end up.”
Who knows where they will end up?
Gee, that’s a real poser.
Oh pick me.(*waives hand*)
I know the answer to that one!
REVELATION Chapter 20:15
Krocket i must say you are correct in saying that salvation is through grace and that is what martin luther stood for , please the lefty liberal lutheran church is much much bigger than the origional lutheran church witch is the LCC that is the synod that i belong to if you do your research you would see just how vastly different the lutheran churches are from one another and how and why we the little lutheran church get lumped in with the massive liberal lutheran church . but baptism , communion , they are part of the way’s that god uses to reassure us ..kinda i mean it is kinda the way’s he show’s us he give us his grace or show’s us his grace ..i think .. i know in our bible studies we have spoken about this and how interchangable they were in romans just as an example we spoke about , and paul did say that we do not have to circumise , but he ask’s us to be baptised , but if your not baptised you can still be saved through grace and jesus …i am the way the truth and the life no one come to the father except through me.
as well he said all who beleive and are baptised , but that doesn’t mean that if your not baptised that cannot be saved , just like if you are not a beleiver but were baptised you are saved right it sounds silly i know athiest’s who were baptized but hate jesus and when they die if they have those same feeling’s they will burn in hell ….it is not baptism that saves you it is one motion of salvation of washing the judgement away from us but i don’t think it is the salvation . Anyway very interesting and thank you guy’s .
Thanks Paul. I attend a Lutheran church and play the organ there. I do, however disagree with their teaching on infant baptism and communion. But that’s OK. Every church has its idiosyncracies.
Set you free: I did not raise the question as to where dying infants go, whether they are baptized or not. Obviously it makes no difference. Since they cannot even understand faith etc. God will not hold them accountable. Jesus said, “Let them come to Me.” So they go to heaven, where He is. No problem.
My issue with you and Blanks is that you try to justify infant baptism on the basis of Acts 3:39 “For the promise is to you and your children …” Just so. Peter’s point is that the promise of salvation by faith applies to all who will believe, to adults and also to children when they believe, and then they should be baptized, not before. Baptizing people before they believe is putting the cart before the horse. Baptism symbolizes the new birth, new life, the washing away of our sins through the blood of Jesus, because He took the punishment for our sins upon Himself.
I don’t want to incur Kate’s wrath by prolonging this enjoyable but OT topic so I will leave it that. If you want to discuss it further with me I’ll give you my email address and I’ll be happy to continue.
Sorry: by OT topic I mean off topic topic.
krocket:
Thanks for the great, mostly respectful debate.
The important thing, for me, is to question everything anybody tells you … so when it comes time to make a decision, you make the one that works for you.
And, to take into consideration all historical context, to respect the struggles and decisions that millions of well-meaning people went through over the past 2000 years, to understand how they came to those decisions and whether the effects of those decisions were positive or negative.
Human beings tend to believe history started the moment they were born and that they are somehow wiser than their parents and by extension all traditional wisdom is suspect.
I’ll just leave it at that and once again, thanks for the respectful debate.
I don’t think labelling every difference of practice or opinion as “heresy” is all that respectful, setters. Show me where in the Nicene Creed it says that it has be done your way, and I’ll take you seriously. Otherwise I think you ought to recognize that the church has always been diverse, and outside of the core beliefs of the Creed, each does what it judges right in the light of its own tradition and its reading of Scripture. “Heretic” is not a synonym for “not my church”.
The only thing that matters to me is what the Bible says. It, after all, is the Word of God. So, with all due respect, Creeds, articles of faith, church history, interesting and educational as they may be, they do not have any authority for me, especially if they differ from what the Bible says. I see it as a difference between Bible doctrine and church doctrine. They are not matters of life and death and I do respect believers of other Bible believing churches.
I also appreciate debates that are held respectfully as SYF usually is. Let that be my final word on the subject.
ebt:
Apparently, 1609 years of reasoned and consistent practise by not only all branches of Apostolic Christianity (Rome and Orthodoxy), but of contemporaries Luther and Calvin were not evidence enough.
Infant baptism, a more inclusive practise in which both male and female children receive grace … as opposed to circumcision (males only), continue to withstand the test of time and has continued for more than two millenia.
It’s been less than 400 years for those who needed to draw a distinction from Rome and in doing so, became a living example of the pot calling the kettle a heretic.
I did not sense the same level of hostility to other Popes in Apostolic Christianity, such as Shenouda III of Alexandria, Egypt.
In fact, I’ll bet they did not even know there were are many other Popes in the world today.
ebt:
It just came to me and now the logic makes perfect sense.
Since 2000 years of practise had not been written into the New Testament, it obviously never happened.
Know why that is? Because the New Testament chronicles that specific time frame in which God was introduced and accepted by the rest of the world, rather than being wisdom for exclusive use by the Chosen People.
Therefore, those who were baptized … at the time of writing … were of all ages, ranging from adults to infants. It was a time when people of all nations first heard and accepted the word.
Curiously, though, other generations followed and those who called themselves Christian had their children baptized shortly after birth. That’s a historical fact.
To me, that clearly demonstrates the folly of literal interpretation, since there were no updates once the books of the Bible were compiled at the Ecumenical Councils.
Oh, yeah. Since the Ecumenical Councils were not mentioned in the New Testament, it must follow to some that they were never held, either.
As a Canadian living in USA for the last 20 years, I have noticed that virtually all my Canadian friends, including my family who still lives in several of the provinces, are all doggedly anti-Israel, (and mostly anti-USA, but that has always been true).
When I tell them that USA is by far the largest donator to the Palestinians, they don’t believe it.
What is in the water up there?
set you free, never quits
Infant baptism is thee biggest accepted heresy in Christendom.
next to, having a Pope (call no man father) as the head of a central Church, not even to mention the heretical bachelor priesthood,the babble isn’t even worth the effort to condemn and has nothing to do with the post, near as I can tell.
funny how the Catholic guy turned a post about Muslims into a preachathon of intolerance and hate toward those are not of this “universally accepted” opinion of Popery. There was no Pope or Catholic Church until after Constantine. Better some education to go with your history, ignorant toad.
Here’s a clue for you, blanks.
My priest is married.
My apologies to Kate and the rest of SDA’s bloggers for starting this off topic argument in the first place.
I’ll be more careful hence forth.
I’m not religious but do see the societal merits in certain religions. As far as infant baptism, beyond theology, I can appreciate the idea of community acceptance and official/ ceremonial “welcome to the club party” that it offers newborns and their parents in a dignified and organized manner.
“There was no Pope or Catholic Church until after Constantine. Better some education to go with your history, ignorant toad.” – Blanks
There certainly was a Catholic Church. Catholic means universal. There was a Bishop of Rome with significant regional influence although the earliest pope was in Alexandria where a current pope still resides. Don’t get hung up on nomenclature.
Can’t we all just agree that Karin Brothers is an appalling twit?
Gym – The belief that human nature can be made perfect if it will master its passions by reason, is a theory that taints all philosophy derived from the sentimentalities of Jean Jacques Rousseau.
Isn’t this fun?
“BTW “this shameless Popery” gave my country freedom from atheist Soviet Union,..”
Riiight, I remember that, and then the Pope used his head to smash down the Berlin Wall and that’s how his Homo fish hat was flattened.
Like it was yesterday.
sounds like a Catholic jihad to me. There aren’t enough hours in the day to argue or begin to debate the kind of ignorance set you free is spouting off, just isn’t and your way off topic anyway, flaming the thread.
But that’s ok for some of the special ones likes you.
What has anything your saying got to do with the original post? zip
I’ve dumped my BS, now I have to run.
trolls
Homo fish hat?
Good comeback.
Boy, did this thread ever deteriorate from the topic of the speakers calling for the demise of Israel and the subjection of all other faiths to Islam.
If these jackholes were pastors from Florida, would people be all over this?
Anytime someone declares Israel to be a cancer or holds up a picture of the late pedophile Ayatollah Khomeini, hold that jackhole to account. Be a bulldog about it. Make them explain to everyone around them how their outrageous claims can be true. For far too long people have let these things slide. Declare Quebec a cancer and see how far that gets you.
“I think your looking for, Those Moderate Catholics!
as a defender of their false Christian teachings and shameless Popery.”
What’s wrong with pot pourri?
This is the twenty-first century. We should no longer believe the Vatican is out to get us and we actually read things before we speak:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm
AAAAAAleeeeeexxx!!!
Where are you bud? Christians getting kicked in the noids by other Christian mostly white people, common man it’s your day, what you die or something?
This is the best chance you have ever had on SDA to convert Christians to atheism and you decide to go get a job or something. I’m deeply disappointed.
The United Church of Canada is United to the prince of this dark world – she switched alliances.
Imagine if that were a group protesting gays, lesbians,or the transgendered;not simply/just Jews? Every MSM outlet would’ve been all over it.
“The United Church of Canada is United to the prince of this dark world – she switched alliances.”
~Lucky Lori
Here is how disconnected from Christianity the United church of Canada is:
http://tinyurl.com/3pe4k4w
SAMPLE
The article centred on Reverend Gretta Vosper, an avowed atheist and minister in Toronto, who wrote a popular book about her disbelief a few years ago called With Or Without God.
Rev. Vosper, who would be considered a heretic in any other denomination and likely dumped out on her ear, is tolerated in some quarters of the United Church, even to the point of enthusiasm.
“I celebrate Gretta and others like her who cause us to think more deeply about the nature of our faith,” said Ms. Tindal, the church’s Moderator.
“One of the things we’re seeing is a greater tolerance for paradox. What Gretta has done has ignited a fresh conversation and invigorated the discussion. This is in the DNA of our Church: to invite this open, deep broad conversation to be the body of Christ.
“Besides, you can’t talk about post-theism without talking about God,” she explained, pointing out the positive side of having a minister who is an atheist.
[SNIP]…
“I also don’t think there’s any point about worrying that next year there will fewer numbers. We see all sorts of churches in decline but we also see many people in society who now say they have no religion. Who knows where they will end up.”
Who knows where they will end up?
Gee, that’s a real poser.
Oh pick me.(*waives hand*)
I know the answer to that one!
REVELATION Chapter 20:15
Krocket i must say you are correct in saying that salvation is through grace and that is what martin luther stood for , please the lefty liberal lutheran church is much much bigger than the origional lutheran church witch is the LCC that is the synod that i belong to if you do your research you would see just how vastly different the lutheran churches are from one another and how and why we the little lutheran church get lumped in with the massive liberal lutheran church . but baptism , communion , they are part of the way’s that god uses to reassure us ..kinda i mean it is kinda the way’s he show’s us he give us his grace or show’s us his grace ..i think .. i know in our bible studies we have spoken about this and how interchangable they were in romans just as an example we spoke about , and paul did say that we do not have to circumise , but he ask’s us to be baptised , but if your not baptised you can still be saved through grace and jesus …i am the way the truth and the life no one come to the father except through me.
as well he said all who beleive and are baptised , but that doesn’t mean that if your not baptised that cannot be saved , just like if you are not a beleiver but were baptised you are saved right it sounds silly i know athiest’s who were baptized but hate jesus and when they die if they have those same feeling’s they will burn in hell ….it is not baptism that saves you it is one motion of salvation of washing the judgement away from us but i don’t think it is the salvation . Anyway very interesting and thank you guy’s .
Thanks Paul. I attend a Lutheran church and play the organ there. I do, however disagree with their teaching on infant baptism and communion. But that’s OK. Every church has its idiosyncracies.
Set you free: I did not raise the question as to where dying infants go, whether they are baptized or not. Obviously it makes no difference. Since they cannot even understand faith etc. God will not hold them accountable. Jesus said, “Let them come to Me.” So they go to heaven, where He is. No problem.
My issue with you and Blanks is that you try to justify infant baptism on the basis of Acts 3:39 “For the promise is to you and your children …” Just so. Peter’s point is that the promise of salvation by faith applies to all who will believe, to adults and also to children when they believe, and then they should be baptized, not before. Baptizing people before they believe is putting the cart before the horse. Baptism symbolizes the new birth, new life, the washing away of our sins through the blood of Jesus, because He took the punishment for our sins upon Himself.
I don’t want to incur Kate’s wrath by prolonging this enjoyable but OT topic so I will leave it that. If you want to discuss it further with me I’ll give you my email address and I’ll be happy to continue.
Sorry: by OT topic I mean off topic topic.
krocket:
Thanks for the great, mostly respectful debate.
The important thing, for me, is to question everything anybody tells you … so when it comes time to make a decision, you make the one that works for you.
And, to take into consideration all historical context, to respect the struggles and decisions that millions of well-meaning people went through over the past 2000 years, to understand how they came to those decisions and whether the effects of those decisions were positive or negative.
Human beings tend to believe history started the moment they were born and that they are somehow wiser than their parents and by extension all traditional wisdom is suspect.
I’ll just leave it at that and once again, thanks for the respectful debate.
I don’t think labelling every difference of practice or opinion as “heresy” is all that respectful, setters. Show me where in the Nicene Creed it says that it has be done your way, and I’ll take you seriously. Otherwise I think you ought to recognize that the church has always been diverse, and outside of the core beliefs of the Creed, each does what it judges right in the light of its own tradition and its reading of Scripture. “Heretic” is not a synonym for “not my church”.
The only thing that matters to me is what the Bible says. It, after all, is the Word of God. So, with all due respect, Creeds, articles of faith, church history, interesting and educational as they may be, they do not have any authority for me, especially if they differ from what the Bible says. I see it as a difference between Bible doctrine and church doctrine. They are not matters of life and death and I do respect believers of other Bible believing churches.
I also appreciate debates that are held respectfully as SYF usually is. Let that be my final word on the subject.
ebt:
Apparently, 1609 years of reasoned and consistent practise by not only all branches of Apostolic Christianity (Rome and Orthodoxy), but of contemporaries Luther and Calvin were not evidence enough.
Infant baptism, a more inclusive practise in which both male and female children receive grace … as opposed to circumcision (males only), continue to withstand the test of time and has continued for more than two millenia.
It’s been less than 400 years for those who needed to draw a distinction from Rome and in doing so, became a living example of the pot calling the kettle a heretic.
I did not sense the same level of hostility to other Popes in Apostolic Christianity, such as Shenouda III of Alexandria, Egypt.
In fact, I’ll bet they did not even know there were are many other Popes in the world today.
ebt:
It just came to me and now the logic makes perfect sense.
Since 2000 years of practise had not been written into the New Testament, it obviously never happened.
Know why that is? Because the New Testament chronicles that specific time frame in which God was introduced and accepted by the rest of the world, rather than being wisdom for exclusive use by the Chosen People.
Therefore, those who were baptized … at the time of writing … were of all ages, ranging from adults to infants. It was a time when people of all nations first heard and accepted the word.
Curiously, though, other generations followed and those who called themselves Christian had their children baptized shortly after birth. That’s a historical fact.
To me, that clearly demonstrates the folly of literal interpretation, since there were no updates once the books of the Bible were compiled at the Ecumenical Councils.
Oh, yeah. Since the Ecumenical Councils were not mentioned in the New Testament, it must follow to some that they were never held, either.
As a Canadian living in USA for the last 20 years, I have noticed that virtually all my Canadian friends, including my family who still lives in several of the provinces, are all doggedly anti-Israel, (and mostly anti-USA, but that has always been true).
When I tell them that USA is by far the largest donator to the Palestinians, they don’t believe it.
What is in the water up there?
set you free, never quits
Infant baptism is thee biggest accepted heresy in Christendom.
next to, having a Pope (call no man father) as the head of a central Church, not even to mention the heretical bachelor priesthood,the babble isn’t even worth the effort to condemn and has nothing to do with the post, near as I can tell.
funny how the Catholic guy turned a post about Muslims into a preachathon of intolerance and hate toward those are not of this “universally accepted” opinion of Popery. There was no Pope or Catholic Church until after Constantine. Better some education to go with your history, ignorant toad.
Here’s a clue for you, blanks.
My priest is married.
My apologies to Kate and the rest of SDA’s bloggers for starting this off topic argument in the first place.
I’ll be more careful hence forth.
I’m not religious but do see the societal merits in certain religions. As far as infant baptism, beyond theology, I can appreciate the idea of community acceptance and official/ ceremonial “welcome to the club party” that it offers newborns and their parents in a dignified and organized manner.
“There was no Pope or Catholic Church until after Constantine. Better some education to go with your history, ignorant toad.” – Blanks
There certainly was a Catholic Church. Catholic means universal. There was a Bishop of Rome with significant regional influence although the earliest pope was in Alexandria where a current pope still resides. Don’t get hung up on nomenclature.