101 Replies to “Now Is The Time At SDA When We Juxtapose!”

  2. All this does is make the people at ZOO look like what they are: shallow self-absorbed children.
    I have zero time for the idiots who “run” the Church, but by all accounts, this woman sacrificed a pleasant, normal life to care for others and got little thanks for it in her lifetime.
    The boys at ZOO wouldn’t last 30 minutes in a modern cancer ward or soup kitchen, let alone in the more primitive conditions she was dealing with. Frankly, neither would I, but I don’t feel obliged to mock those I know are morally superior to me, as a way to make up for my own inadequacy.
    What pathetic boys. I feel sorry for them.

  5. beagle said ‘I got 5,460,000 ‘responses’.’
    If you look at those responses, they all have the Prefix ‘anti’ in front of them as in anti-christian riots by ‘students’ or ‘youths’ or ‘worshippers’. Probably in a proselytizing state of mind.

  6. Slander an innocent deceased Christian Saint- good.
    Slander a sheep shagging pedophile prophet and his violent band of miscreants- bad.

  7. Pathetically juvenile and disgusting. Those same cowardly “journalists” wouldn’t have the b*lls to mock anything Islamic, only those religions they know won’t put them on a to-be-killed list.

  8. Dave in Pa
    […….Pathetically juvenile and disgusting. Those same cowardly “journalists” wouldn’t have the b*lls to mock anything Islamic, only those religions they know won’t put them on a to-be-killed list…..]
    Yeah funny (queer not haha) that………

  9. On and on it goes, Cristians, fair game, season year round, by the self loathers in the insane-stream media, muzzies, never in season. Kind of like the pathetic headlines and dopey “pundits” over at Borque and National Screwsloose-watch, we hate Harper and conservatives all the time. Their headlines are so funny to just browse, never read the drivel but my daily laugh at morons starts with those headlines, urgent crisis destruction spiralling downward mess scandal ridden, you get the picture. The further we get from the truth, the harder it will be to return, or maybe never, political correctness is the most serious cancer for our societys long term survival.

  10. But, but, but,
    Chris Alexander CPC, asks Michael Coren, as he calls him a hypocrite:”..how many atrocities have been committed in the name of the Bible?”
    This guy is steeped in revisionist history as he mentions to the great relationship that Europe has with the Muslim culture.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/sdamatt2#p/u/2/K0tRSO6Ha_A
    So it’s equivocal, right?
    Thanks Matt in Mississauga for the Coren links on youtube.
    If Chris Alexander is a sample of up and coming CPC we are doomed. Smarmy doesn’t quite cover it.

  11. I will toss in my two cents worth whilst I drink coffee and wake up.
    In the present state we are in nowadays. I suggest the following:
    When you help others, they will always remember you the next time they need help. And … You may be mocked for wasting your life in such a pointless pursuit anyway. Help your own family if they need it and let others do the same.
    Don’t waste you money on charities, they are businesses filled with leftist do-gooders who don’t want a real job. They enjoy lording over those who are even more helpless and stupid than they are. A lot of the money our governments steal from us goes to those bogus politically warped charities anyway.
    Don’t bother being a member of a religion either … they are nothing but decaying corpses that have already done their best and worst work *(Although, I don’t think Islam has ever done any good, nor yet done it’s worst. That is why I bought a bigger wide-screen TV … Their worst will be televised.)
    Perhaps the Catholic church could stage a comeback by changing the celibacy rules. People who swear off sex with a member of the opposite sex in their own age group, are not respected, they are thought to have mental and emotional issues.
    The Christian church brought much of it on themselves and that is why it’s easy to mock a Christian nun and get away with it.
    Did I mention ban anything Islam from north America?
    Science has explained away the various deities that once controlled the elements …. you know … gods of the thunder, lightening, rain, crops, the oceans … what have you … the only god left is the the god of death … you know … the one who is portrayed dying on a cross … because we cannot explain what happens when we die, that mystery remains.
    My guess is that when you die, things go back to the way they were before you were born … for you. In other words, you simply cease to exist.
    I know that’s scary, but it is the most reasonable explanation … anything else suggests that we are immortal beings. I for one, do not wish to spend eternity is the company of much of what we have on this earth today.
    If I were to be sentenced to prison, I would insist on solitary confinement to be away from the rest of the scum …. same thing in the afterlife eh?
    The above was posted for entertainment and provocation purposes only ….

  13. Abe:
    It’s humbling to be in the presence of such a perfect human being such as yourself.

  14. Saint Mary is a very, very close relative of mine so this is a double insult to me.
    I see no reason to be upset over this. Humility is kind of a “thing” for saints.

  16. Religion is religion…every one of them has good and bad…everyone of them is a primitive way of looking at the world. They’re all outdated, they are inconsistent with the world we live in, the technology we have, the abilities to observe our surroundings that we’ve created. That people in such developed and advanced societies such as is the case in North America still believe the ridiculous supernatural stories made up from interpretations of a book is completely irrational.

  17. Set you free,
    And I do it all for free.
    However, I do have a bad knee, so the perfection comment is not accurate.

  18. Ah, yes. BTJ trots out the “everything is equal” canard. What do they call that again? Moral relativism? Idiocy is more accurate.
    You know, BTJ, the point of Kate’s juxtaposition is to show that, no, not everything is equal. The point was so blatantly obvious within the context provided that I would have figured even youth like you could see it for what it was.
    Apparently the education system isn’t what it used to be either.

  19. I strongly disagree with you, BDJ. I’m an atheist but I think that religion – a proper religion and not a political agenda masquerading as a religion – is vital. Why?
    First – what is a ‘proper religion’. To me, it is a belief system that acknowledges that man is ‘not the measure of all things’ but is a part of the complex adaptive system (CAS) that is our universe. As such, it acknowledges that there is both order and chance in this CAS; and that there is no a priori deterministic goal of some desired end point.
    Political systems that focus on power and hide under a cover of religion are anti-human. That is why I reject Islamism, socialism, communism, fascism as religions, for they all posit an end point of universality to their ideology, which is deemed to be supreme, and also, an end point of infinite purity – a violation of Godel’s basic principle.
    Religions discuss the metaphysical; that zone of ordering which is not immediately accessible to the observer but is present upon analysis. I, frankly, can see the metaphoric justification of the Christian Trinity in the physical and biological realms – for all reality is morphologically organized within triadic relations.
    Religions also, above all, discuss societal mores, the morality of ‘how to behave with each other’. Most certainly, one does not need religion to come up with morality; you can come to these same conclusions using reason. After all, religions are ‘man-made’!
    Even though I am not a member of any religion, I happen to admire the Christian religion, for it was the first belief system that rejected tribalism and the confinement of ‘the good’ to one’s kin group and opened up positive interactions with other peoples, with its basic dictum of ‘Love They Neighbour’.
    A key benefit of religion is its insistence that man is not The Power but merely an actor, and has the choice of being a good or evil actor. That is, religion warns against the ‘hubris’ of power.
    Even though, as an atheist, I reject deterministic agency and causality, I certainly support these axioms of religion.

  21. I wonder.
    Maybe I am just nitpicking, but this analogy does not really hold.
    It assumes that St. Mary is to Christianity what the prophet is to Islam.
    I’ve never seen muslims riot against whacky depictions of Khomeini, Khameini or any other muslim saint (don’t know of any either). Technically, they should be offended by images of Christ, because he would qualify (I think) as at least a saint in Islam. Their big issue is with depictions of god and of the prophet.
    Makes this a sort of pointless thread – and Zoo gets free publicity.

  22. “Slander an innocent deceased Christian Saint- good.”
    In fairness to the slanderers, the Catholic Church’s cannonizations are hardly seen as accurate indicators of innocence.
    St. Thomas More is my favorite saint. He only burned six people at the stake for not believing him.
    Some might call him a murderer. The Church calls him a Saint.

  23. What I find odd is that groups, progressives and the educated class, who are most likely to mock Catholicism/Christianity also claim to be uber-cultured and sophisticated.
    Western culture and science are closely linked with Catholicism (art and architecture) and Protestantism (technology and industry). The relationship may have been a rocky and volatile but it produced what we are today. It is not difficult to not be religious and still appreciate how religion played an essential role in the development of our civilization.
    I agree with KS, it’s adolescent immaturity and the need to be proactive that motivates their “humor”. Some of the religious jokes are still really funny but most lost their ability to amuse/shock about a decade ago – get some new material.

  24. ET:
    That is a truly beautiful post on the value of a “proper” religion from an atheist’s point of view. In some inchoate way, I had come to this view over the decades, summarizing it so: ‘I am not a believer but I believe in the value of belief”. I especially appreciate your observation that morality can be reached through rational, non-religious means. One of my little peeves with Glenn Beck (whom I greatly admire) is the apparent suggestion that we “need to get back to Church” to recover our civilization.
    Brava!

  25. One would think that Australians would be happy to have so wonderful a woman as their first saint.
    I guess not.
    If anyone wants me, I’ll be busy NOT throwing Molotov cocktails and screaming “Death to America” or whatever it is people are angry at these days.

  26. Me No Dhimmi,
    I agree with everything you said … And ET always covers a topic so well.
    I too am Atheist, but I am a Catholic Atheist, so I do understand the purpose of the ten commandments. They are simply a logical guide to live in a civil society. They work for me. We need more justice though.
    The government’s coveting of other people’s goods has to stop.
    The false gods of socialism must stop.
    Glenn Beck loses credibility when he gets too deep into the religion thing. He starts to come across like Dionne Warwick and her mystical friends.

  28. “Ah, yes. BTJ trots out the “everything is equal” canard.”
    Please, quote me. Where did I state that ‘all religions are equal’? I said they all have this in common: there is good and bad, and they are primitive.
    “I’m an atheist but I think that religion – a proper religion and not a political agenda masquerading as a religion – is vital. Why?”
    So a religion is ‘vital’ yet you’re an atheist, not even an agnostic, but an atheist. If it’s so vital, why do you completely reject the underlying concept?
    Your definition of a proper religion, unfortunately, has never been realized.
    “To me, it is a belief system that acknowledges that man is ‘not the measure of all things’ but is a part of the complex adaptive system (CAS) that is our universe.”
    What do you mean by ‘the measure of all things’?
    “That is why I reject Islamism, socialism, communism, fascism as religions, for they all posit an end point of universality to their ideology, which is deemed to be supreme, and also, an end point of infinite purity – a violation of Godel’s basic principle.”
    What the hell are you talking about? Do you really think there’s that big a difference between Christianity, Islam, Judaism in the context of the belief system (not in the context of present day followers).
    “Religions discuss the metaphysical; that zone of ordering which is not immediately accessible to the observer but is present upon analysis.”
    It’s outdated and misinterpreted, there are better ways of studying metaphysics than from a series of loose translations from a several thousand year old book.
    “Religions also, above all, discuss societal mores, the morality of ‘how to behave with each other’.”
    Again, it’s the year 2010, I would hope that we have evolved socially enough to be able to have these discussions without using a 2000+ year old book.
    “Makes this a sort of pointless thread – and Zoo gets free publicity. ”
    You hit the nail on the head.
    “St. Thomas More is my favorite saint. He only burned six people at the stake for not believing him. ”
    The oh so loving Christian church at it’s finest.
    “Western culture and science are closely linked with Catholicism (art and architecture) and Protestantism (technology and industry)”
    Only because it was intricately enmeshed with ALL culture at the time, you couldn’t get away from it! Christianity was NOT responsible for what we have today, it was the loosening of the influence that Christianity held over people that is responsible for what we have. Do you forget that at one time you’d be killed for any idea that conflicted with the church?

  29. “I too am Atheist, but I am a Catholic Atheist”
    Good lord, a sign that religion is outdated…when the term ‘Catholic Atheist’ is seriously used to label oneself.

  30. lance @12:38 – “…I would have figured even youth like you….”
    Why do we assume BTJ is young? He could be senile.
    rodin @12:56 – probably there was a time when one could mock the Ayatollah without being threatened, but if you’ve noticed Islam is getting, um, increasingly excitable. (I mean, there are actually Islamic depictions of Mohammed, mostly mediaeval I think, so it’s not like these are hard and fast rules anyway.)
    Theo Van Gogh didn’t depict Mo inSubmission, as far as I’m aware. He just “insulted Islam”.

  31. BTJ
    That is called humor.
    But I Agree, religion is outdated. It’s only remaining value is to allay fears in small children, that grampy, grammy and fluffy the cat didn’t really die, they went to heaven to wait for the rest of us.
    Oh, and I guess it is still used for explosive political purposes …

  32. Abe:
    I’m not sure I’d like being your neighbour.
    And glad to know you’ll never be one of my kid’s coaches, etc cause I sure don’t want them learning any of the crap you just spewed.
    Perchance Abe, have you thought of the fact that some people come from highly dysfunctional families and need the help of others (i’m one of those) or that refugees may not have any family left? Because of happenstance you live in a country where you can have most anything you want you are somehow above those who don’t?
    Who cares what others think about my volunteerism? It’s not done for the viewing or entertainment of others.
    I have spent many years looking for a charity that spends less than 5% on admin. with a nonreligious angle – even though the vast majority are religious. We teach a ‘man’ to fish. And ‘handout’ only in times of extreme trouble – like war or weather.
    You’re a real downer dude. Maybe you should finish your coffee first before posting!

  33. As another atheist in general agreement with some of the above (I consider Christians to be further evolved than and much preferable to certain others), I think there is little fun nor challenge in ridiculing Christians collectively. Many Muslims however, are a pathetic, humorless and backward lot completely lacking introspection. The challenge of their domestication is significant if at all possible.

  34. I think Glenn Beck is onto something and that is a necessity of a moral code as a basis for a successful society.
    Thanks abe for showing where you’re coming from as a Catholic skeptic.
    Ever since the Church of Rome decided to go its own way from the rest of Christianity (what we know today as the Orthodox Church). it has left a trail of consequences from its lack of humility.
    Does the Church of Rome speak for all Christianity? Certainly not, it just speaks from its geographical location, that is from Rome.
    There are several theological turning points that foretold its eventual position. I have my understanding of them and I’ll let it go at that.
    Among them was the Protestant movement, which was a fragmentation from the practises of the Church of Rome. That included celibacy and the Church of Rome remains the only apostolic church that demands celibacy from its clergy.
    No equivalent separation such at Protestantism has sprung from the other bodies of the original Church which had jurisdiction in the rest of the known world, the original body from which Rome separated itself.
    There is no question there are many wonderful and exceptional people in the Church of Rome, even worthy of sainthood.
    But Rome does not speak for my tradition and we consider the Pope the Bishop of one city, that is the Pope is the Bishop of just Rome.
    I can sense how frustrating it must be for you, but there are other options open for any human being’s search for the ultimate truth.
    If one door of truth shuts, another will open. Willful ignorance does not quality as a legitimate stance.
    The gift of truth will always be there, despite the failings of human beings that blind us in our search for inner peace.
    Have you found inner peace with your rejection of the Church of Rome? Sure doesn’t sound like it.

  35. BTJ – you have a narrow definition of religion. Here is a standard definition from the dictionary:
    “a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.”
    As an atheist, I do not believe in a deterministic agent (god) – which is what you seem to narrowly understand as ‘religion’. But I do believe in ‘superhuman’ power, in the sense of a ‘broader and deeper power than human agency’. This power is Nature, the underlying rational order and adaptive strengths of a Complex Adaptive System.
    Purpose? The only purpose of this CAS is to prevent the dissipation of energy.
    Moral code? Most certainly.
    Rituals? I consider them stabilizing, contributing to a sense of community and focus.
    To state that a ‘proper religion has never been realized’ reveals you as a utopian, and thus, someone aligned with the ‘false religions’ of Islamism, socialism..etc..which are all about an eventual purity and utopian state. A genuine religion acknowledges the fallibility of man, as finite beings (again, Godel’s law) and thus, unable to ever be perfect (infinite).
    There is a great difference between Christianity, Judaism and Islamism. I suggest you read the basic texts, and also, analyze when and thus why, they emerged.
    Gosh – you reject the wisdom of the ancients? I am a fan of Aristotle – and I really find his thousand year old texts a font of wisdom…about everything from metaphysics (read his Physics and Metaphysics) to politics (read that section).
    Look – we humans have been around for about 100,000 years and there’s nothing wrong with exploring the basics of morality. Read Plato, read Aristotle, read Homer, read Cicero. They are basic.
    Don’t make the error of merging the church, which moved into a political realm, with the religion of Christianity. They actually are two different entities. The church, being a political agent in the period from about 4th through 15th c, was focused on power. The religion is not.
    And remember, that Christianity, as a religion, focused on the individual not the tribe. That is what made it a part of ‘growth economies’; it rejected tribalism, it rejected authoritarian rule and focused on the individual choosing the religion.
    That is a powerful and vital grounding to the development of the Western ideology of freedom and growth. So, your suggestion that western scientific growth developed only as a rejection of Christianity is quite incorrect. Again, I suggest an exploration of some of the old scholars – and you can include the scholastics, including Duns Scotus vs Aquinas. Fascinating stuff and interestingly, a background for modern physics.

  36. BTJ: “… everyone (sic) of them [religions] is a primitive way of looking at the world…”
    Actually, it’s the having no religion that usually turns out barbarians.
    As ET so eloquently points out, religion instills in most of its believers care and concern for not only themselves but others, and Christianity, in particular, has been at the service of humankind since Jesus walked the earth: “Love your neighbour as yourself; do good to and pray for those who hate you.”
    Although I very much appreciate ET’s and MND’s admiration for Christianity and whole-heartedly agree that one neither has to be a Christian nor a practitioner of any religion to live a moral life and reach out to others, I would like to point out that there really is no comparison between the power of one morally and ethically upright atheist to the power of an organized church/community of Christians! Just look at who the first responders always are, offering significant relief, wherever there is a natural disaster anywhere in the world.
    If, BTJ, you want to see what an advanced primitive society would look like, try if you can to imagine an inner city without the Christian churches’ outreach: soup kitchens, clothing depots, in from the cold/heat programs, counselling programs, etc., etc. That barren, violent, dystopian landscape would be the primitive state of things you’re actually talking about. You just don’t know it, because you have all of your facts wrong and, sadly, no imagination.
    MND: Your “I am not a believer but I believe in the value of belief” — bless you! — reminds me of something Winston Churchill said when someone referred to him as a pillar of the Church: “No, no, not a pillar of the Church, but a flying buttress, supporting it from the outside.”!!

  37. Forgot to add, Mary McKillop represents a human being who rose to sainthood DESPITE the flaws of the Church of Rome.
    To my way of thinking, she is a worthy representative and example of Christian extremism ie somebody who has followed the tenets of Christianity rather than its human constructs, on which much of the rebellion is based.

  38. On the “I Wish I Lived In Seward Neighborhood” thread BTJ is making claims today that environmentalism can’t be compared to communist totalitarianism because environmentalism has not “killed millions” of people.
    BTJ has no grasp of history or reality or the ultimate goal of environmentalism.
    BTJ’s religion is the worship of Gaia but can’t even recognize that he is himself a supplicant.
    It isn’t any wonder that BTJ doesn’t see the value of a religion that puts people above the worship of Gaia.

  39. Only because it was intricately enmeshed with ALL culture at the time, you couldn’t get away from it! Christianity was NOT responsible for what we have today, it was the loosening of the influence that Christianity held over people that is responsible for what we have. Do you forget that at one time you’d be killed for any idea that conflicted with the church?
    I doubt that anyone could honestly and objectively read historical accounts of western development and make that claim. By comparison with every other culture, western culture is the most advanced and successful. Christianity helped create the conditions – peace, stability, education, communication, funding and inspiration that allowed for some of the greatest works of literature, art, architecture, music, political structure and scientific development.
    You are damning it for not being perfect while turning a blind eye to its success. The Christian religion did make some horrible decisions but it evolved, kicking a screaming perhaps, to become one of the most humane religions in history. By direct comparison, few other religions/cultures come close to matching it.
    I don’t get the refusal to objectively asses both the positive and negative influence of Christianity.

  40. LC Bennett: “I don’t get the refusal to objectively assess both the positive and negative influence of Christianity.”
    I don’t get it either, LC Bennett, but the negative influence of Christianity has been the leftard meme for years and our kids are being brainwashed with this view in our schools. Christian culture: BAD. All other cultures: GOOD.
    That’s what “multiculturalism” is really all about. Trudeau and co. knew they couldn’t outright condemn Christianity and get away with it and so devised a plausible beard behind which to hide: official multiculturalism which relentlessly shoved Christianity to the sidelines and then to the basement, thus allowing them to usher in their godless, leftist agenda. The liberal mainline churches, unfortunately, helped them to advance their agenda, as did acquiescent, badly catechized Christians who didn’t have a clue what was happening.

  41. At this point I can perhaps claim to have seen more pain and hardship than most here.
    This is not a virtue…just experience.
    My opinion, is that Christianity, much like democracy, is not perfect but certainly is much better than the alternatives.
    BJT—-if you believe everybody is equal….fine, but I would advise against getting in the ring with Mike Tyson……

  42. I think we can put this to rest if we can name an artist/writer/musician/philosopher/scientist/leader/philanthropist from Christendom as opposed to one from Islam.
    It is easy to attack Christianity and Christians, calling the entire belief backward, ect, but it is quite another to defend it.

  43. The liberal mainline churches, unfortunately, helped them to advance their agenda, as did acquiescent, badly catechized Christians who didn’t have a clue what was happening.
    ~batb
    I blame materialism.
    Not even the love of money is the root of all evil anymore.
    People don’t worship money or they wouldn’t be in such debt.
    What they love is the material stuff they can get on credit.
    People measure their own self worth and the worth of others by the “stuff” that they’ve accumulated.
    A contemporary saying goes, “Whoever dies with the most toys wins.”
    According to the Bible, that was the original sin…covetousness, wanting that which you cannot have.
    Now you can get everything you ever wanted on credit.
    When the big debt crash comes, people are going to be stripped of their material self worth and the shrieking will be heard all the way to heaven.
    Some people are going to go crazy when they lose all their stuff because they worship it and their idea of who they are is dependent on it.

  44. “BTJ – you have a narrow definition of religion. Here is a standard definition from the dictionary:
    “a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.””
    Nope, that’s about how I define it…and supports my point. There are much more reliable and rational methods for exploring the ’cause and nature’ of the universe than loose translations of thousand year old books.
    “But I do believe in ‘superhuman’ power, in the sense of a ‘broader and deeper power than human agency’. This power is Nature, the underlying rational order and adaptive strengths of a Complex Adaptive System.”
    You make a mistake that seems to be a common theme in today’s society. Assuming that human and nature are two separate entities. We ARE nature, nature is US. We have the ability to shape nature as we see fit because we are, on this planet, the product of the cumulative adaptations of this its CAS.
    “Rituals? I consider them stabilizing, contributing to a sense of community and focus.”
    Really? I see them as taking focus away from reality. For instance, Easter. Historically ‘Easter’ celebrations (the celebration of Spring, of new life) have been focused on reality. Long ago humans lived to survive, the end of winter and coming of spring was a ‘god-send’ in that it meant the end of winter fasting. Today we don’t have to ‘survive the winter’, waiting for the return of life and food. Today we go skiing and have a beer and a choice of just about any type of food you’d want at the chalet in the middle of winter. Yet we still celebrate Easter, but since we don’t have that same feeling of savior from overcoming winter, we’ve turned it into chocolate eggs and bunny rabbits, hallmark gift cards, and a tale of someone rising from the dead.
    “To state that a ‘proper religion has never been realized’ reveals you as a utopian”
    What?! My statement was in response to you, I’m not claiming there is any such thing as a ‘proper religion’, I’m saying that your definition of a ‘proper religion’ IS utopian…it doesn’t exist.
    “There is a great difference between Christianity, Judaism and Islamism. I suggest you read the basic texts, and also, analyze when and thus why, they emerged”
    They are more alike than not, they stem from the same basic belief system, they have the same ultimate origin.
    “Gosh – you reject the wisdom of the ancients?”
    No, there’s a difference between ‘rejection’ and ‘progression’…I argue that we move forward, that doesn’t imply that we reject the past.
    “Look – we humans have been around for about 100,000 years and there’s nothing wrong with exploring the basics of morality. Read Plato, read Aristotle, read Homer, read Cicero. They are basic”
    Can’t help but delve into the strawmen arguments. We are talking about RELIGION. Not historical philosophers.
    “And remember, that Christianity, as a religion, focused on the individual not the tribe”
    I would clarify this statement. JESUS focuses on the individual, Christianity as a whole, not so much. Jesus is also HIGHLY misrepresented by Christianity as some sort of superhuman/god like figure.
    “So, your suggestion that western scientific growth developed only as a rejection of Christianity is quite incorrect. ”
    That was NOT my argument, please, reread my post. I said that it was the loosening of Christianity from society that allowed for scientific growth. It was the fact that one no longer faced death for revealing discoveries that contradicted the Church.
    “Actually, it’s the having no religion that usually turns out barbarians.”
    Another misunderstanding…I didn’t say that religion turns out barbarians did I? I said it’s a primitive way of observing one’s surroundings.
    “As ET so eloquently points out, religion instills in most of its believers care and concern for not only themselves but others”
    I never said any differently. But you don’t need religion to believe such things.
    “I would like to point out that there really is no comparison between the power of one morally and ethically upright atheist to the power of an organized church/community of Christians!”
    Ah, so you’re a collective over the individual type eh? I would agree, the collective definitely has more power than the individual…though this is not something to be celebrated.
    “If, BTJ, you want to see what an advanced primitive society would look like”
    Oxymoron much? Today’s society is as close to ‘advanced primitive’ as I hope you could get. We have technology that couldn’t be dreamed up half a century ago, yet socially we cling to century and millennium old ideals.
    “try if you can to imagine an inner city without the Christian churches’ outreach: soup kitchens, clothing depots, in from the cold/heat programs, counselling programs,”
    An overused and cheap argument…the classic ‘imagine if there were no religion based charities’. A ridiculous thought experiment.

  45. BTJ- no, I vehemently disagree with your comment:
    ” Assuming that human and nature are two separate entities. We ARE nature, nature is US. We have the ability to shape nature as we see fit because we are, on this planet, the product of the cumulative adaptations of this its CAS.”
    Your statement above is an example of ‘hubris’, of arrogance. We humans are NOT identical with Nature; we are a part of the CAS that is Nature. We cannot shape Nature ‘as we see fit’, and we are not the product of a linear adaptation of Nature. That is why I call you ‘utopian’ and why you, ideologically, fit in with the utopian ideologies of socialism, communism etc. They all say exactly the same as you do – that Man is the ‘measure of all things’; that Man is the Controller..and so on. I disagree with both the hubris and the utopianism.
    No, reading the ancient philosophers of metaphysics is not a strawman argument, for their discussions are about what religion discusses: the metaphysical forces, the relation of man to these forces, the relations of man to others. I am guessing that you’ve never read them and therefore, have no idea of their content. Did you know that the works of Plato and Aristotle form a key component of the ideology of the Christian religion? Ever read the scholastics?
    No, read the Christian texts; it is a religion that focuses on the individual. You have to make the choice between good and evil, yourself; you have to reach out to others, yourself. I am beginning to wonder if you’ve even read the Christian texts…and the analyses of them by various Christian scholars. Remember, the Christian bible is not the ‘word of god’ but is an interpretation and as such, the teachings are analyzed by religious scholars.
    Could you explain why, if you accept the dictionary definition of religion, why you consider it ‘primitive’?
    And again, you are making a serious error in confusing Christianity with the medieval church. The individuals who rejected the corrupt political power that the church had become, did not reject Christianity! Instead, their agenda was to remove that political corruption and restore the beliefs of Christianity.
    Could you explain how we socially cling to millenium old ideals? We moved out of tribalism, out of theocracy, out of divine kingship and into democracy. We focus on equality of individuals, on a constitution and the rule of law, on an elected government..and so on. Could you explain your comment?

  46. Blah, blah, blah. Must every neutral reference to Christianity bring out the bored navel-gazers to let us know that they’ve got it all figured out and that the Church is archaic? Focus people! Nobody is getting killed; end of story. Nice work Kate,as usual, and welcome back.

  47. I don’t know if any of y’all has noticed, but BJT uniformly disagrees with anything posted on SDA, by anyone, every time.
    Still not addressing the main point BJ: profound lack of anything resembling rioting after mortal insult delivered to Australian Catholics, ZOO magazine has -not- had any bombs go off on their front step, zero death threats delivered to the authors, film of crickets chirping at eleven.
    If you want to disagree perhaps you should consider disagreeing with the topic at hand, eh?

  48. “We humans are NOT identical with Nature”
    Really? I wouldn’t say we are ‘identical’ with nature, but nature is apart of us and we are apart of nature. We are inseparable.
    “we are a part of the CAS that is Nature”
    That is what I said.
    “We cannot shape Nature ‘as we see fit'”
    No? So far I’ve seen us create new elements, turn black goop into a means of transportation, create new organs from a single cell, and the list goes on and on and on and on.
    “we are not the product of a linear adaptation of Nature”
    Where do you see me use the word ‘linear’? We are not the product of adaptations?
    “that Man is the ‘measure of all things’; that Man is the Controller”
    Huh? no they don’t! Capitalism says that man is the controller, that man creates from nature. Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged…go read it.
    “No, reading the ancient philosophers of metaphysics is not a strawman argument, for their discussions are about what religion discusses”
    Great, WE are discussing religion. Not historical philosophers.
    “I am guessing that you’ve never read them and therefore, have no idea of their content.”
    Read them and discussed them, we’re talking about religion though.
    “Did you know that the works of Plato and Aristotle form a key component of the ideology of the Christian religion? ”
    That’s great, why not just read Plato and Aristotle then?
    “No, read the Christian texts”
    I’ve read and been read, and been taught enough of the Christian texts thank you very much. I grew up highly influenced by Christianity (several Reverends in my family). It is JESUS that focuses on the individual.
    “Could you explain why, if you accept the dictionary definition of religion, why you consider it ‘primitive’?”
    Because it IS primitive by definition. Before people had science, had microscopes, had electron microscopes, had computers, to discover the world around them they had religion. Religion explained the unknown.
    “Could you explain how we socially cling to millenium old ideals?”
    “We moved out of tribalism, out of theocracy, out of divine kingship and into democracy.”
    Yet we still have tribalism (interest groups), millions still rely on theocracy to tell them how to live (what the pope says still runs peoples lives, but now by choice), in our ‘democracy’ we get a say in who rules, but after that we pretty much have no say. We still relate to each other in primitive ways (just read any thread on this site), we still not only hold marriage as some sort of divine procession but we argue about who can and cannot be involved.

  49. It is cool to see Mary MaKkillop become a saint. The first Australian saint. I’ve only been to Australia a couple of times and I do have two 1st cousins (one English, one Irish) who emigrated there.
    They don’t care about mags trying to make a buck – they wish them luck (rhymes).
    What is interesting though is that the timing of this sainthood is lined up with (and similar to the strategic promotion of Newman in England ) the roll out of the Anglo-Catholic Ordinariate. The sainthoods and the promotions were worthy but I think the timing was strategic. A lot of parishes are about to switch to Catholicism from Anglicanism in Australia and England. They probably can’t take the church property with them but who cares – you can always say Mass in a garage or barn until you can save up to build something that lasts for a while.

  50. Yes, BTJ, we get it- you like pressing buttons.
    Now- if you have the stones- say what you are saying now to a Muslim. To his face. After all, all religions are the same, that being being primitive and silly. You’ve gotten debates here. Do you think you’ll get reason from him?

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