“This first approach was fairly tentative—largely nonviolent protesters dipping their toes into the water. Initially, the protesters were outnumbered by the cops, but then as more and more of them converged, they eventually outnumbered the police and started drawing closer and closer to the line: taking pictures, chanting, singing, screaming invective. “
More at The Torontoist (h/t subversible).
Not so related; “Sir, I’m going to ask you to move along. There’s really nothing to see here.” I’m staying off that particular bandwagon, but then again, I don’t pull over at the side of the road to rubberneck at accidents, either. In short, what appears to have started out as a police request to “move along” rapidly escalates into mockery and a overwhelming show of police non-violence.
“But civilian photographers will be rebuffed with a force in equal contradistinction to that not being applied to the rioters themselves.”
Except, you know, there was no force. They stuck around for 5 minutes and left under their own steam.
(By the way – who the hell picks a G20 weekend to hold their pro-Israel rally? I thought Jews were the smart ones?)
They should have held it in Montreal as it would have been peaceful there.
Montreal Riot April 21, 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hRvTjc4FLI
Aaron,
Its a fair discussion, although apparently the law has been on the books. This is typical of government, administartive changes to laws…that is an observation not a justification.
Its fair to question whether this process of designation was abused. My understanding of the law is that it currently applies to the legislature, the courts and police stations. Apparently any “public works” project is covered, that would include highway construction, and better yet sewar construction (usually dont by municipalities)
So the question becomes, do they need to add and gazette out each new address of a court or police station or are they covered under type.
I have a hard time getting worked up over this example because I dont have any issue with they did ultiamtely, and it wasnt that if you didnt id yourself you were arrested, it was if you stayed and didnt id yourself, thats a little different.
Anyway, fair nuff for the lawyers to work this out and get it clarified. For the moment, no harm no foul….challenge it and get a court ruling on its appication in the long run, in extreme anything can be declared a public work (especially if we lived ib Venezuala) so its worth circumscribing it.
I am appalled by even your attempt to justify random arrests in Canada. Clearly there is something wrong with your thinking.
> I dont have any issue with they did ultiamtely
That’s definition of the problem, not an excuse.
If Canada can’t host a G20 summit who can? We are a democracy, we operate under the rule of law. People who disobey our laws are dealt with. Hooligans, thugs, anarchists, terrorists cannot endanger our people or those who visit us or our properties.
Given how well it was handled, let’s have more of them, to do otherwise is handing the crazies on the Left of the spectrum victory. We cannot surrender to such scum.
Kathy
“and the pro-Israel rally was held to try to take advantage of the international media present at the G20”
I think that for police a protest is a protest is a protest. They can not know whether your protest could become violent or whether someone from outside will make your peaceful protest violent. And the fact that your were “going to the pro-Israel protest” does not have anything to do with police guy asking you for ID. Your mentioning it in the description of event is a “red hearing”.
I am not surprised that after Saturday police were jumpy – if you were in their shoes you would also be jumpy. And afer hearing your exchange with a cop I am sorry to say but you are in the wrong – you were not ” in fact exceedingly polite” – you sounded like you were sneering at the cop, the police guy was courteous and you were bitchy.
Aaron
Stop saying that “only I can recognize socialism.” I assure you many of us can recognize socialism or totalitarizm having lived in such countries. I think you are so scared of any possible similarities that you are oversensitive – see similarities where there are none.
Anarchy … bringing you the world’s best example of it, Afghanistan, one broken window at a time.
> I assure you many of us can recognize socialism or totalitarizm having lived in such countries.
I never said I was the only one who can identify socialist tendencies. Moreover, I was directly talking to Stephen, who never claimed he ever lived in a socialist country.
And you are wrong saying there are no similarities. Today’s Canada looks more like USSR than today’s Russia.
i just heard the arrest count is up to 900. apparently the black bloc has more members than the green party.
To summarize, the cops totally blew it by being AWOL and doing ZERO during Saturday’s trashing of property …then they blew it again trying to prove how tough they could be (AFTER the fact) on Sunday. Whoever was the chief cop in charge of this weekend’s amateur performance needs to get his ass fired. About the only thing they might have done right was their raid on the U of T residence that housed the Quebec rioters, although they treated THEM with kid gloves!
I did security in my younger days. We’ve put 3M window film on all glass that could be broken if security could be compromised by that.
Well, look at the pictures from Toronto “riots” – jewelry store glass being shattered by 2×4. My jaw dropped: the owner apparently does not worry about his windows being smashed. Otherwise he would have spent a few hundred bucks and secured his window.
That demonstrates clearly that neither property owners nor police had any concern for broken windows. Entire $1 billion went towards “G20 security” vs. Toronto and its residents security.
Sure glad I don’t live in Toronto any more. There must be something in the air that makes people crazy.
Aaron,
Driveby arrests? Dont think so.
What I dont have toruble with is that they designated the extra 5 m as an area that they can ask for ID for you to remain within…it wasnt for driveby arrests.
My lack of problem is also associated with there being a justification, a legitimate security zone, and short time frame that it was in effect. It is now gone since it is no longer justified.
Do you have any issue with its current applicability, legislature, court houses police stations, expansion beyond those areas, the way in which the expansion was done or the whole law?
Would you have trouble with crime scene restrictions as well? You arent allowed in even if its a public park. There is clearly a justification for that.
Nobody lives in the court houses and police stations. Like I already said. Apples and oranges.
I’ve asked on several threads: Who was ‘in charge’ over the w/e?
RCMP? OPP? or Blair?
I appreciate your summary davers6.
Or was a it a clash of egos, with no-one in charge?
I’ve frequently praised Kathy Shaidle in the past but she’s way off base here. Indeed, normally anyone has a right to stand on public property but this past weekend was an insane situation where police didn’t know who was friend and who was foe. Her and her husband might look “middle class” but I wonder if the 30-something ringleaders of the hooligans might not look middle class as well.
This insistence about everyone in Toronto being able to do whatever they wanted (you can’t infringe upon my civil rights!) is at the heart of the problem.
I know her ego was bruised but she should have known better.
Aaron,
“Apples and Oranges”….are both fruits.
People dont live there but people work there and they are public spaces, as in being available to the public that we are supposed to have access to. So once again, I am trying to understand what exactly your objection is in this case.
Is it the law was applied in the wrong area, put in place by wrong method or shouldnt exist in the first place.
By this time I usually give up on individuals who don’t understand after so many times.
Stephen, do you clearly not understand that being on a public street for any purpose – walking for pleasure, shopping, commuting – is in no way, shape and form similar to being at the courthouse, police station or inside fenced road construction excavation?
Further, don’t you understand that until someone is accused of an offense there is no legal justification for requiring ID from that person?
If they are accused, then get their ID, suit yourself. But if police have nothing to accuse them of, then IDing them serves no useful purpose in a free society that Canada seems to strive to be.
Shaidle doing what Shaidle does best, described so accurately further up by lance. Indeed, as Kate said, most of us reasonable folk don’t rubberneck when driving by a car accident. We certainly don’t pull over, get out, and snap photos at the side of the road (you know, the road we pay for). We would certainly expect, if we did, the attending police officer would ask us to move along (you know, the one whose salary we pay). Nobody would begrudge the police officer for doing so.
Not really much difference here (indeed, with the attendant violence in the area, the G20 situation is arguably worse), yet Shaidle seems to want copious amount of sympathy directed her way.
Shaidle’s behavior was discourteous (to be charitable) at best, and definitely over the top. I almost expected the discourse to degenerate into her saying, “Do you know who I am?” It would have been only marginally more disrespectful than the ‘salary’ comment.
Shaidle is that most remarkable of political creatures — able to offend the sensibilities of both like and unlike political persuasions.
I would like these thugs to go to hell but before they do, they should be airlifted directly into Pyongyang. Where is their courage in Kim territory?
And there is nothing progressive about allowing mob rule.
ET and Stephen, IMHO hosting the G20 in downtown Toronto was dumb because it cost a BILLION DOLLARS of my money. Holding it elsewhere would be significantly cheaper, assuming it was A) not urban and B) defensible. Lake Louise would be a good spot, rent the whole place and use the Army for security. That’s why we have an army, after all.
Stephen, if rioters rioted in the nearest city that’s fine, they could all damn well rot in jail there for six months afterward too. I don’t see a down side.
I don’t object to holding the G20.
I object to paying a billion dollars to hold the G20. I object to a “security” force that allows vandalism to happen right in front of them (obviously because they were ordered to do so). I object to stripping the rest of the country of police for a week so as to assemble said force. I object to liberal policies that make it illegal for people to protect their own businesses from rioters. I object to government unions holding “peace” marches so as to provide cover for said rioters.
Also, frankly I object to the fact that the Federal and Provincial governments have the power to shut down the biggest city in Canada, for a week, to throw a -party-. They shouldn’t be able to do that for anything less than a plague, a flood or other such disaster, or open war. Close Toronto for a frickin’ photo-op? Are you kidding me?
Its a symptom of how much freedom we have lost that nobody finds this outrageous.
Now as to Kathy Shaidle and BCF: If Hamas shows up with cameras and their Hamas flag at a Jewish parade do the cops tell them to move along? Not a chance in hell, not even if the Joooos start in getting fractious and threatening. 200 cops will form a cordon around the little pustule of Hamas a-holes to “protect their right to free speech”. Which is what they are supposed to do!!!
And we know this because that’s what happens every single time the Indians burn a pick-up truck in Caledonia. You have 50 Indians screaming and throwing rocks, one (stolen) burning pick-up and some burning tires all on stolen land they aren’t supposed to be on, then 200 cops in full-up riot gear facing -away- from the Indians and toward 100 locals from Caledonia who want to know why the G-dd@mn highway is shut AGAIN, and when are they going to be able to get to work today.
Kathy Shaidle shows up with a Jewish flag and a camera to the Hamas rally, she gets moved along in no uncertain terms. Blazing Cat Fur gets assaulted by Hamas lover/union thug who crosses the road to get to him, right in front of a fricking cop, BCF gets told to stop causing trouble and get lost.
Or, The Phantom drives past the Indians illegally occupying the DCE with a camera. And The Phantom then gets tailed by a cop car all the way through Caledonia, out the other side, and then pulled over by said cops in a full-up tactical stop with shotguns and everything. The Phantom then has his license number, name, address and etc. announced on the cop radio where the “demonstrators” can hear it clear as day because the cops are not using encrypted radio. Oh, and they searched my truck too. Nicely, but searchily.
The Phantom then politely asks the nice young man if it would be ok for him to leave town as fast as possible, the nice young man says “we’re not running you off, its ok”. Thanks kid, I’d believe it a lot more without your partner and his shotgun at the ready.
Its called two tier policing, where some are more equal than others. Y’all are on the wrong end of that equation by virtue of race, colour and creed.
Robert W
Absolutely right. Kathy had the right to;
1-not go downtown and add to the crowds of onlookers that the violent types were using to hide behind
2-to have some sympathy for cops who had working 12 hour shifts for a week in hot weather while wearing bullet proof vests
3-to exhibit enough common sense to understand that the cops just might have a little frayed nerves
Instead, she chose the right to be a total dickhead.
i agree with la shaidle and bcf
what kind of a gumshoe can’t differentiate between a couple of middle-aged squares and two troublemakers on the make then he ain’t no trained observer…
the badge in question was feeling his oats is what….a lot of cops do that you know….they actually enjoy being legal bullies as well as clock-watching do-nut scarfing time serving louts…….cause they can… see?
go bust a criminal i tell them….i’m a taxpaying law abiding citizen ferkrissakes…
BLUETECH …nobody is rushing forward to claim they were the one in charge this weekend. On Saturday night Chief Blair spoke publicly (I watched him on CP24) and made an amazingly inane speech about the “great job” his police were doing (after we had just witnessed them live on TV doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING while property – including their own vehicles – was destroyed) … then on Sunday night (again on CP24) a different senior cop (Superintendant McGuire?) came out and praised the wonderful job the police did on Sunday … it was surreal to watch them both, however it is worth noting that in both cases it was Metro Toronto senior cops and not RCMP or OPP senior cops who defended the “great work” of the police.
I’m very much a kick ass & take names kind of guy who admires cops who beat the snot out of bad guys but this weekend’s police performance in Toronto was breath-takingly misdirected … tough on little girls, while DOING NOTHING against the burners of cop cars and breakers of Yonge St. windows.
Phantom,
The rest here DON’T GET YOU.
It will all go over their heads because they don’t have a CONCEPT OF FREEDOM.
What they have is a few quotes from those who DO HAVE A CONCEPT OF FREEDOM which they strangely liked and memorized. That’s the definition of Canadian mainstream conservatives. The same mainstream conservatives think that libertarians are just a bunch of drugged nutjobs.
Aaron,
Of course there is a difference. But the law you are objecting to was about people loitering within 5 m of the fence. They were not arrested if they couldnt or wouldnt produce ID, they could be arrested if the refused or couldnt produce ID AND did not move back beyond 5 m. They had the right to refuse identify themselves.
As for the people within the security zone, well they fell under a different circumstance that had nothing to do with the law you mention.
I am not trying to be argumentative but I just think you are making the issue to be bigger than it was. That being said, I understand your concerns about how the law was put in place and about how it might be applied in the future, all worth challenging. For the moment it was no harm no foul (there werent the drive by arrests you spoke of) but the obscure law and admistrative implementations, as opposed to legislative, have now been flagged are being tested, for some of the concerns you have.
Stephen, I’ll repeat one last time in capital letters so that you understand: in a free society you don’t ask people for ID w/o accusing them of an offense. If Canada/Ontario/Toronto does, it’s the definition of the problem, not an excuse.
My question is which is the bigger tyrant? Is it the ‘government’ and its agents who for security reasons block off a designated area for a short period of time? Or is it the twits who seek to show the ‘government’ by entering the secured zone that they won’t be pushed around? Personally I can see a reason for the security zone. I can not see a reason for anyone not authorized to be in that zone. Maybe its just my sense of civic duty.
I find it hilarious and ironic that Shaidle went straight into threatening the officer with legal action. A tired cop tells a pain-in-the-butt rubber necker to move along during the worst riot in city history and she’s talking about getting lawyered up.
Afterwards she can’t understand why people side with the cop.
> Afterwards she can’t understand why people side with the cop.
That’s why Canada is not and will never be free. You don’t have a concept of freedom. For you “the end justifies the means” (c) Joe Stalin.
Joe – but can we simply grok up front that Kathy & Arnie weren’t in any sort of “secured zone” when they were given a taste of authority’s short temper and lack of proportion? I know Toronto’s a long way away from where most folks here are posting, but Bloor & Bay is nowhere near where the looting happened, and it’s far from the G20 fence. “Police always right” is a dangerous slogan to rally around, as far as I’m concerned.
Aaron says:
“That’s why Canada is not and will never be free. You don’t have a concept of freedom. For you “the end justifies the means” (c) Joe Stalin.”
Two rubber neckers get told to move along, who then get lippy with a cop, who then goes away. Excuse me if I don’t think Canada isn’t the USSR under Stalin quite yet.
Simple common sense. They weren’t victims. Shaidle’s remarks were tasteless and provocative. The cop was the one that walked away. Then she’s up there doing Al Sharpton-style whining on her site. The grandstanding was shameless, and I’m not the only one who thinks that, considering the comments on this thread.
Phantom,
The costs of security might have been lower if they had been able to hold both conferences in Huntsville. But I am saying that the protests and the riots would STILL have happened in Toronto, the only difference, most of the police owuld have been in Huntsville and riots and damage would have been worse.
As for shutting down the city….yawn. People went to work, there was still shopping going on at the eaton Centre and Dundas square. It was held on a weekend. There is probably just as much disruption from Pride and Carribana in terms of gumming the city up. Add a riot to either of these festivals and its begins to approach the problems in terms of traffic etc.
The issue is the security zone. A better venue might have been the exhibition grounds….but then you have issues about hotels and shuttling the delegates from meeting halls to location. Thats what made the convention centre a requirement.
The right location isnt as simple as some people want to believe it is….but as I said, we have now done our turn and we wont have to do it again for 20 years, assuming it hasnt changed yet again, or we havent been kicked out or left.
We will see how the choice of Seoul works out for the G20 in November. I suspect the Korean police wont be as nice, but there will be riots there as well.
brick:
Amen.
“Excuse me if I don’t think Canada isn’t the USSR under Stalin quite yet.”
Sorry typo, should be:
Excuse me if I think Canada isn’t the USSR under Stalin quite yet.
aaron…I ‘get’ Phantom…don’t try to speak for me.
You seem to be having a difficult enough time speaking for yourself.
It might also be your right to be in a hurricane, and the storm won’t ask to see your ID before hurling you against a nearby immovable object. At times, one should just avoid some places. Freedom allows stupid choices,but doesn’t forgive the consequences.
I don’t know about you Aaron but I do have a concept of freedom and its called reasonable compromise. My freedom to go anywhere I want ends at your front door. My freedom to throw a punch ends at the point of your nose. Your freedom to shoot a rifle ends when someone else becomes the intended target. There are two deadly sins of government one is too much government like the Soviet Union. The other is too little government like Somalia. Both have tragic consequences. The art to forming a free society is knowing where to draw the line. Pushing the limits as happened in Toronto over the weekend is not the way nor the time to set such boundaries.
Aaron,
I guess you dont drive a car or fly on an airplane.
And while I generally agree with you that a free society doesnt do that there are always exceptions within that society. They need to be justified and reasonable.
There are just too many exceptions within life to make your statement an absolute.
I say again, the specific law you mention only required you to produce ID if you were going to stay within 5m of the fence. You dont want to produce ID, move along.
I get your point….you continually avoid acknowledging or even countering anything I have said. I think we have exhausted this aspect of things because I am not sure what your solution was. Given that the secuirty zone was there do you believe that everything up to the fence should have remained a free zone? (a legit position)
Sorry but the police brass farked it up, stop blaming Harper he had no say in the way the police brass allowed rioters to run amok. The brass had no problem with their officers man handling law abiding citizens beit journalists or lookyloos. I don’t blame the officers, I blame management it’s appears that on day two they gave the police the go ahead to publcly harrass at will, as for the rioters good luck that kind of leftwing trash blends into their environment.
> Two rubber neckers get told to move along
Yeah, I know: ‘because there is nothing to see here’. According to a cop. Thankfully it’s two ‘rubber neckers’ who decide if there is or there isn’t something to see. In a free society cop can’t approach them. In a police state he/she can approach, ID and arrest them.
Your post proves my point that you don’t have a concept of freedom.
Stephen, I remember seeing the city hall district in Seoul evacuated after a protest. Bricks, stones, ect. The Korean cops won’t take any guff.
> There is probably just as much disruption from Pride and Carribana in terms of gumming the city up
Except that pride and carribana are Canadians voluntarily participating in a traditional event, versus foreigners invited here against our will.
During those two you know exactly when and where they occur. One example of piss poor handling of G20 for your ‘don’t see- don’t hear’ approach: thousands of drivers sat in traffic for several hours on Wednesday the 23d, few days before announced meeting, because Ontario/Toronto government decided to close HW 427 w/o announcing that on the incoming highways.
People were coming up on 403 and down on 410 as well as from Dixie Rd etc w/o knowing that 427 was closed.
Even more: we were told that 427 South was closed, but weren’t told that Renforth Dr was closed too. Renforth is the last exit before 427 and some thought that they would be able to bail out onto there and still get to Mississauga locations via city streets.
They neglected the interests of thousands of Canadians in favour of a bunch of foreigners. That’s disruptive enough for me. For them we are just cattle who can be herded onto the HW for hours and denied going to our destinations.
If you don’t see it, you are willfully blind and not willing to see beyond your small village mentality.
I’m sorry Kate for using your blog, but since Kathy doesn’t allow comments on her site…
Kathy – you may have 10,000 readers, but as of today you have one less. I don’t know why anyone would be interested in being a police officer these days given the carp citizens think they can throw at a person who is doing their job – and quite frankly citizens have no idea what police do (which is demonstrated time and time again when people who have never had to take down a person resisting arrest has indepth knowledge about how to do it!).
The police in this situation were set up from the beginning – the constant yapping from the federal opposition parties, bloggers, protesters, and the media about the costs of security, the way that the police were implementing security, how protesters would just peaceful groups promoting their cause (when everyone knew from the beginning there would be people in the protests whose main purpose was violence) etc. made it a pretty clear bet from the beginning that whatever the police did or didn’t do, they would be criticized for it. And you went right along with all the other useful idiots to demonstrate that this was the case. Well, congrats, you have lost one reader and a person who contributed to you defense fund – don’t come asking again!!
brick60, you don’t have a problem when cops come and roust you for standing across the street filming them? How about for just standing there? Me, I don’t like that.
Try riding a motorcycle and getting pulled over -weekly- for them to “check your license and insurance”, that’ll give you a different attitude. Years go by that I don’t get pulled over in my truck, days went by that I didn’t get pulled over on my bike, for -nothing-.
Our government and our police forces have far too much power and far too much money. I think it would be excellent if a future government had to cancel their G20 megaplan and have it at the airport Hilton because of a budget shortfall. Bignuts world leaders could stay on their aircraft and bring their own beer, union thugs and fellow travelers could get shot in the @ss with rock salt trying to break the windows at Starbucks. By the owner.
Its a symptom of how much freedom we have lost that nobody finds this outrageous.
What? That they can with no legislative authority shut down part of Toronto? Force businesses to close without compensation? Arrest people for walking around? Violate the constitution on a whim? Dude, Canadians don’t care about this crazy ‘liberty’ and ‘freedom’ stuff. The vast majority don’t pay any attention and the partisans only object if it’s the other guy doing it. It is too bad that there are so many conservatives that are reflexively pro-police (who hate every other bureaucrat oddly enough) and even a few who want the state to be more brutal in repressing people (i.e. the posters above who wanted them to shoot and beat people). I’d quote Franklin but they’d probably tell me he was a hippy with long hair…
Aaron: “Yeah, I know: ‘because there is nothing to see here’. According to a cop. Thankfully it’s two ‘rubber neckers’ who decide if there is or there isn’t something to see. In a free society cop can’t approach them. In a police state he/she can approach, ID and arrest them.”
—–> You have no sense of proportion. In the video, the cop comes across as more reasonable, and is the one who stops the escalation by walking away, after giving his badge number. After long shifts, horrible riots, angry brass, can we cut the guy a little slack? He’s not a Gestapo thug.
There are real incidents of police over-stepping their bounds. This is not one of them. It’s two whiny grandstanders, who lack the self-awareness to realize they are the one that look bad in the incident. Hoisting one’s own petard.
> given the carp citizens think they can throw at a person who is doing their job
If he was doing his job, he would not have walked away w/o arrest. He was not doing his job, just being a control freak trying to intimidate as many people as he could, and he chose the weakest in his opinion.
aaron:
Ah, the old freedom from responsibility chestnut.
> can we cut the guy a little slack?
No, we can’t because they never cut a slack for us. They can lie to us with impunity while for us it is a criminal offense to lie to them.
They can use any force on us, even kill us, while for us to defend against them is a criminal offense.
They are unionized government employees while we pay them to do things they sometimes refuse to do for no good reason.
No slack allowed.
It’s a few hours after my earlier comment. I’m listening to the VERY WISE Lorrie Goldstein on Adler’s show. He echoed exactly what I said previously.
Kathy Shaidle, absolutely love your writing much of the time and in this recent case you may have been legally in the right but you clearly left your common sense at home.
I’m just glad that neither you nor your husband were hurt.