When the concept of multiculturalism was introduced to Canadians, most assumed it meant “more pavilions at Folkfest”…
Courtesy Right Girl
(A well-known publisher of swastika imagery taking photographs at the scene denied he was acting in any official capacity for the Liberal party.)
Here’s a question I have about “The Dog that didn’t bark” .
If we in the West keep hearing about the diversity and multi-faith society for Palestinians where everyone is oppressed and occupied to the point where they become Suicide Bombers…..then where are all the Christian/Palestinians bombers , plus, why are we only seeing the Pro-Hamas/Hezballah morons at the protests?
The CAW will rue the day they stayed mute when the Liberal M.P.(Carolyn Parrish) embraced Palestine House and the anti-USA/Israel muslim population by bashing their(CAW) UAW Brothers as Slacked-Jawed idiots for Electing a Moron from Texas.
The NDP/CUPE/CAW coalition of yahoos will only have themselves to blame if Obama follows through with his Auto Bail-out that may demand a pull-out from canada to protect “American” jobs , you know…..those slacked-jawed idiots that Elected him last year because their all racist morons and bigots.
Palestinians in Toronto keep harping about how they just want to live in Peace with the Jews and any Israelis, BULL…….they can’t even live in Peace right here in Toronto among all our Multicultural sectors because people like Mohammad Elmasry told Michael Coren on live TV that Palestinians in canada are telling him that ANY Israeli over 18 is a valid target for murder because of the Military service rule.
Elmasry’s very own words pointed to the Palestinians right here whom claim to have escaped and came here to live in Peace.
Nobody seems to be connecting the Dots for why the Pro-Shariah Muslims have settled in Toronto(on the lake) ,Windsor,Montreal,Fort Erie,Niagara Falls and other “Border-Towns” with easy access to the Jew-Loving USA ?
I wouldn’t put it past the Pro-Hezballah/Hamas Islamists in canada to use our Country to fire rockets into Detroit,Buffalo,Vermont,Maine, Port Angeles, and other spots while hiding among Civilians in Government housing buildings full of Bogus refugees from the Middle east and North African Muslims.
In Toronto at the Kipling and Dixon area right under the Flight paths for Planes there are Refugee-Apartment Unit with mainly Somali-Mulsims demanding Shariah law in canada , the Local Mosque was the one that told Muslims not to offend Allah by saying “Merry Christmas” because Christians and Jews and filthy pigs in the Quran according to Muhammad’s voice in his head.
Honour killings, Rapes,Polygamy,and even muders are covered up by the Media that don’t tell the whole story which is obvious when they refuse to mention the Religion or nation of origin for the criminal.
Jordan Manners died in a Pro-Union school where Teachers made the free will choice to not report many crimes and rapes because it would offend and smear some groups as a stereotype , the girl that was raped in the Gym was a Muslim along with the Student in Ottawa that was raped until CAIR did their PR job to hide the Whahhabi Islam Shariah to claim they weren’t really Raped because that would hamper them getting married to a Muslim male as damaged-Goods.
Roger: 6.25am.
I note your remarks on Mahar Arar. Held in a 10x8x6 ft cell for months. Damp and nasty, mice droppings coming in. (He claimed).
One week later he was spruced up and looked like CBC eligible man about town. Good enough for those centre pages of the National Post and Toronto Star. The beautiful and successful. As I said then, was an independent medical team given to go ahead to carry out extensive physical testing? Perhaps they were, doubtful though. Arar should tell us his secret. Imagine the questioners of the RCMP asking Arar questions about the points you raised. Why this? Why that? What reasons?
We were caught solid.
ET you don’t know your Hamass from your elbow about Islam. Combine that with your vaguely disguised hatred for Jews (Zionists)doubly discredits you.
That crap about closing the borders and stopping the Gazans from exporting demands the question of what industry (other than death)does Gaza engage in? I’ll give you a shiny dollar for everyone you can name.
Professional refugees and welfare parasites do not engage in industry. Tell us your opinion ,ET, as to why the greenhouse industries bought from the Jews by Bill Gates and turned over to the PA were destroyed within weeks by these friends of yours, the Muslims?
BL@KBIRD….do not expect a response from ET.She is a lover of the underdog,even those that use retards as human bombs,lob rockets at civilians, and follow a 1500 year old peadophile.You have been exposed,ET,as the left wing nutcase “intallectual” you are.Now go play with your Hamas buddies,biddie.
ET – “Ideologies are always rooted in the deeper infrastructure of a population and this deeper infrastructure is the economy.”
Do you acknowledge that the “deeper infrastructure” fundamentally derives from individual expressions of basic human nature?
How do you see human nature? Inclined to creation or destruction?
I demand a bigger Karnaugh map, Tenebris: what
about creative destruction and destructive creation?
Humans do two things: they try to make their lives better, and they try to fix the problems caused by the last time they tried to make their lives better. Always has been; always will.
So it’s not destruction or creation, the question is: is creation minus destruction greater than zero? Personally, I would say, emphatically, yes.
tenebris – you are the one who is bringing up the term ‘basic human nature’.
The basic human nature that I can think of is – the desire to live, which is within us the second we are born; the desire to interact which is a basic biological principle of all that lives, the emotions of fear and love which are also basic, the desire for both stability or habits of life, and for novelty. Those, I think, are basic.
The interesting thing is that human nature is both individualistic and social. That is because our species, almost alone of all species, has a limited genetic knowledge and relies almost exclusively on learned knowledge – which is always social rather than individual.
Having a learned knowledge base gives our species tremendous flexibility of adapation – we don’t have to change our physical form; we change our knowledge base in order to fly. BUT, even though our knowledge base is collective/social and beyond any individual capacity to develop and accumulated over generations, it is only the individual who thinks, reasons, questions.
So, our species is a combination of the collective (our knowledge base) and the individual (who thinks, innovates, questions). This binary frame sets up conflict, for the collective operates around stability, habits, normative patterns. The individual operates around diversity, differences, dissent. However, our species requires both processes.
As such, our ‘human nature’ must be to both create and destroy. We must remove old dysfunctional knowledge (the earth is flat, witches exist) and create new knowledge. We must have the power to reject social modes that are dysfunctional (tribalism) and develop modes that are functional (democracy).
Didn’t Maher Arar’s wife win the NDP nomination? Does the NDP actively curry favour with these individuals?
blackbird, if you google in ‘industries in gaza’ you’ll find that the industries are primarily textile and detergent production, along with some furniture, and other small business products.
A major problem is that these industries function primarily by export rather than internal to Gaza consumption, and with the closure of the borders to Israel, and the forbidding of exports, these industries have collapsed.
As for the greenhouses, some of which were dismantled by settlers upon leaving and some of which were looted by Palestinians, the Gaza officials had tried to start them up and continue them. A major problem is water, which is restricted, and above all, the closure of the borders. Gaza’s economy is 85% and more dependent on exporting whatever it produces; if it can’t export – it has no economy. Fresh produce and flowers, which were the basics of the greenhouses, were the staple export. With the borders closed, that economy ends.
I suggest that you do a google search and research these issues rather than simple insults which are nonproductive.
Vitruvius – for ET’s sake, I was avoiding the classic good/evil descriptions, as exemplified on each pole by Pelagius and Augustine, respectively.
I think you’ve developed a numerical stutter. The two things you refer to are, to my mind, a manifestation of a single desire – a short-term coping mechanism to enhance autonomy without undue regard for future consequence or past considerations.
If you wish to pursue the duality (and it takes a Calvinist to truly appreciate the antithesis), I would asset that you have a sign error. Population expansion and technology do not equate to the uplift of the mass of mankind (***PC segmentation fault***out of cheese error***), if you naively assert such to be the relevant dynamic in the dance of bliss. I do not expect you to fall prey to such a fallacy. What metrics are homomorphic to man, if indeed he be the measure of all things?
I really don’t think we want me to go into my opinions on the matter of the dance of bliss here, in this thread, Tenebris, that would be off topic. I simply made a passing comment. Some comments are just thoughts, not arguments.
ET – Indeed, I am bringing up human nature. After all, if we are naught but puppets in a play, constrained by gene and circumstance to act out our vain imaginings to no purpose, then whence the “must”?
And why do I bring it up?
Because your genuflections to Marxism in presuming economy as fundamental to human expression do not belie the millennia of sheer, cussed, contrariness in man’s expression of himself, nor overturn his quintessential, abject, stupidity in pursuing personally and socially destructive paths.
Your pronouncements on the Israeli/Palestinian issue appear improperly grounded. Charitably, you are expecting intellectual leaps of faith in your readers because you do not adequately asset your axioms, and your “proofs” omit too many steps to re-establish your logic. You have deservedly been taken to task by other for this.
Redeem yourself.
So it’s not destruction or creation, the question is: is creation minus destruction greater than zero?
Or if I may paraphrase a very wise man, “Meaningless, meaningless everything is meaningless, everything old is made new again for indeed there is nothing new under the sun”. There are but seasons of our existence. A time to be born, a time to die: A time to plant a time to uproot: A time to heal and a time to kill: A time for loving and a time for hating. A time for war and a time for peace. All of man’s striving is but chasing after the wind.”
Wait, wait, “quintessential, abject, stupidity in pursuing
personally and socially destructive paths”? I’ll drink to that!
I’ll see your Pope and raise you a Kipling (and now forsake wine for the evening’s port):
As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.
We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.
We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.
With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.
When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “Stick to the Devil you know.”
On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “The Wages of Sin is Death.”
In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “If you don’t work you die.”
Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.
As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;
And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
(And yes, it IS no topic – think about it)
Ack! …ON topic…
tenebris – because I postulate the economy as basic to the existence of mankind, doesn’t mean that I’m a Marxist! Surely you know better than that!!
The economy, understood as the means of obtaining food, shelter, clothing etc is a basic first requirement of all living organisms. It has nothing to do with Marxism but with physics and biology! It is fundamental to life. The next step is to examine what kind of economy is viable in a particular environment (an exam question I often posed to my students).
The environment limits and defines how you are going to sustain yourself. This involves soil type, climate, temperature, water supplies (rainfall, river, mountain runoff etc), seasonalities, plant life, animal life etc. Can the plants and/or animals be domesticated? In most of Africa for example, this was not possible. The amount of ‘energy’ from the environment directly affects the size of the population.
Then, you move on to the organization of this population (political, legal, kinship). The ideology..religious, narratives, etc..is only the final conceptual ‘glue’ of the society. Final not origin.
This is not a marxist analysis. I’m surprised at you.
I disagree; my views on the Israeli-Palestinian situation are grounded. In facts. I’ve provided quite a few of them. I don’t subscribe to the emotions so often expressed here as ‘grounded opinions’ of ‘they are all animals’;’ they are all fascists’; they deserve to be nuked’..and so on.
So, sorry, I don’t feel any need to redeem myself.
Yes, vitruvius, nice quote.
ET
Three pages in the google search so far, hate industry,death industry, tunnel smuggling industry and one notation that there was no industry. How far need I look and how old were your references? Was it when the filthy Juice you hate ran the place?
Why do you lie about the green house compounds? You are an underdog lover aren’t you?
ET to borrow a very poorly written poem.
Where the cloud goeth, The LORD knoweth, The cloud knoweth not.
Where the man goeth, The LORD knoweth, Knoweth the man not?
Man is not simply a victim of happenstance and circumstance.
Put a group of humans whose belief is X in a given environment and you will have a drastic difference from a group of humans whose belief is Y.
What we believe about ourselves, our world, our society and our relationship with the deity is far more important than you would have us to believe.
Like waiting for Godot, even some conservative naifs are still expecting the mythical moderate Muslim majority to show up and be counted.
Any Muslim who is moderate by Western standards is part of a small weak minority who are cowed by the militant majority except for a few brave voices whom you can count on the fingers of one hand out of millions and everyone knows by name e.g. in Canada Salim Mansur, Tarek Fatah and Irshad Manji. They are shunned by the majority who consider them borderline or wholly apostate, no small threat as many Muslims believe apostasy deserves a death sentence.
Consider as evidence against a significant moderate Muslim contingent that not a single mosque’s congregation in the West has ejected any imam as too radical, despite much documentation via Internet writings or secret filming of sermons in mosques that reveal marked hostility and agitation toward the host countries and their citizens by the mostly Saudi directed imams.
Muslims divide into increasingly larger groups starting with the core fanatics willing to kill others and themselves in the name of their religion, those who actively support them financially and logistically, facilitating their free movement through their communiy, those colluders who do their best to distract the host community from Muslim wrongdoing and drain funds by gumming up human rights machinery with mostly trumped up or frivolous complaints of Islamophobia, those who push for sharia, those who agree in polls that suicide bombing is justified, and finally those who are complicit with their silence, who make no objection to tens of thousands of attacks around the world by Muslims against all other religions.
There is no moderate Muslim cavalry who will ride to save us.
I’ll see your Kipling, Tenebris, and raise you a glass of port. And I’ll note that we had better cut this out, or Kate is going to smack us upside the head; other than to mention:
And, of course:
ET – Oh, good. Now we are getting to definitions. So, basically, you are asserting economy to be equivalent to nature, as understood in the nature/nurture debates?
Stop presuming that people know what you are talking about. (and I do apologize for the Marxist dig, but it did work).
Now, expand on the strictures of historical constraint that bias a mere instantaneous analysis of the Israel/Palestine imputation of guilt. Quite clearly, you and irwin daisy disagree on matters of fact. Let us leave those aside for now, and first determine if they truly matter, because where you two are at odds is an issue of justice.
Are the Israelis and Palestinians equal actors, or does history require one to be judged more rigorously that the other?
Oh well, I’m just a country boy … don’t understand most of the big city words. Born’n bred in Alberta. Not that I’m an expert, but I suspect we have the same economic system and all that non-tribal sh*t that the Eastern folks have.
My question is – why don’t I trust the “Eastern Society” … nobody learned me not to … Iggy said he was sorry. I also have friends from the East and they are good folks.
Can any professor explain to me why individual to society and society to individual isn’t working for me … given all other things appear to be equal?
Vitruvius – Great poem.
Again, ET is strongly and tirelessly defending her anti-Israel stance. She surely knows that Intellect is not sacrosanct. Instead of being so defensive about criticism, listen to another viewpoint once in awhile, ET.
You really don’t have the answer to this age-old problem, and it would be arrogant to think you have. More is going on in the spiritual world over the land of Israel than a non-believer can comprehend.
ET,
“There’s an interesting inteview with Massoud in FrontPageMag dot com, Nov 13, 2007, called ‘Muslims Against Sharia’. Google it and you’ll find it quite informative. For example, he says:”
“Islam in its present form is incompatible with modern society”
– ET (posted later on another thread)
“You (irwin daisy) reject any and all Muslim immigration which sets up a clear judgment that you view ALL Muslims as unfit to live within a democratic society.”
– ET (earlier on this thread)
It’s good you’ve finally come around to reading ‘Muslims against Sharia’ which I suggested you read about a year and a half ago. However, ET, your posts are quite revealing, wouldn’t you say?
Perhaps your rigid and narrow view may be opening up? Maybe you might become open to actual debate based on the facts?
On the other hand, you could be slipping into hypocrisy on top of your prejudice.
We’ll see. A change in approach would be nice and informative for all involved. No shrillness needed, or falsifying what people say.
Roger…Wow, at least one person on this blog knows what’s really going on in Toronto…but you didn’t mention the infiltration of the blue collar and semi-educated white collar into the infrastructure now thickening and almost cemented…police, city workers…your cable guy…we have had to put up with it in our Universities for several decades and now the most frightening thing is the subtle influence from their encrusted undemocratic mentality that has crept into our society…..all safely packaged in…you guessed it ”’multi-culturalism…
tenebris, the ‘nature/nurture’ framework is a 19th c. analysis; we don’t, thankfully, divide the world up into such binary simplicities anymore.
My focus on societal analysis is to first acknowledge the environmental realities that a population has to deal with; the economic reality that the population develops rests on a realistic assessment of that environment. You can’t grow wheat in the arctic. This is a basic ecological societal framework. You can read Jared Diamond’s work on that, though I prefer Emilio Moran. Google his name and check out his basic book on Adaptability; basic ecological anthropology…and chapters on living in arctic zones, grasslands, arid zones, tropics.
The West (Europe) has the richest biome on the planet which is why it moved, eventually, into industrialism.
You seem to focus on binarisms (nature/nurture; free will/sin; good/evil). I’m not into that type of analysis; I work within complex adaptive systems and binarisms don’t play much of a role.
No, irwin daisy and I don’t simply disagree on matters of fact but also on matters of interpretation. It’s a total and full disagreement!
As for the Israeli-Palestinian situation, I’ve outlined my views on that so many times, it would be redundant to repeat them. To reduce this complexity to what you seem to want, namely, who is good and who is evil, as do so many posters on this thread, doesn’t, in my view, work in this situation.
There are mistakes on both sides but I feel that the greatest errors have been made by Israel with its occupation and settlements. Another error, made by the world, and used by the tribal Arab and Persian states, is to merge the I-P situation with Islamic fascism; the two have completely different causes. I like Wright’s book on Al Qaeda for an examination of Islamic fascism.
“Some people you just can’t make happy no matter what you do.”
🙂
Love it Bob C!!!!
ET: “I’ve outlined my views on that so many times”
ET and New agree about more than one thing: try to talk others into your way of thinking until their eyes glass over.
Fortunately, ET knows how to type.
me:
Check out these links for exactly how close Hamas is to the NDP, Arar’s,CAIR-Can,Nihad Awad,and the Financial-Jihad in Canada via CHRC’s and CRTC where Dr.Sheema Khan tried to Sue and Shut-Down a Radio station for allow a gues to tell the truth about her ties to the Whahhabi Saudi’s and the Crusades in canada for Shariah Law .
Sheema Khan was at the Arar Inquiry to give evidence for Islamophobia and Racial-profiling in canada which lead to Maher Arar being arrested in the USA, CAIR-Canada held a “Victory Dinner” for the Arar Millions$$$ and guess who was there….Jack Layton,Lib M.P. Dion, Sheema Khan,Mohammed Elmasry,Gilles DuCeppe, and Tarek Fatah who now denounces CAIR .
CAIR members have been Convicted and are in US Prisons for Terrorism funding to Hamas via the Bogus Islamic Charity ( Holy Land Fund) that Maher Arar himself claimed was denied a job at because of the Public Smear of his alleged ties to Terror groups.
The University Of Ottawa also provided “Expert Witnesses” for Torture to back-up Arar’s claims for Alleged harm , and guess what…that same U of O is now on the donations list for the Arar’s Millions$$$ according to CAIR’s on Press release for the Victory Dinner hosted by CAIR .
Nihad Awad is on a CTV view interview where he admits that he and CAIR have supported him since 2002 , that’s because Arar had a second home in Boston near the 9/11 Airport and was photoed by the FBI for attending a Mosque alleged to have Al-Qaeda ties for recruiting Jihadists.
Read the original Lawsuit by Arar on his own website where it declares that “JORDAN” caused his harm and allow Kidnappers to grab him to return a Draft-Dodger for a Military Trial in Syria.
The Inquiry revealed all this information that included the news of Arar getting a Gun permit just after the Montreal Massacre by Gamil Ghrabi
on his Jihad suicide mission for Allah.
http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/15993.shtml
http://www.anti-cair-net.org/
As for the NDP and Hamas…..check out this article for Arar’s wife and Alexa McDonough at a Pro-Hamas rally in Ottawa back in 2004 , the NDP and MP McDonnough had joined CAIR-Canada’s crusade to Sue us taxpayers for $400’000’000.00 based on Alleged harm , and YES…..his Wife ran for the NDP in Ottawa to win the Seat from the Anti-USA/Israel population .
http://nonprofitnet.ca/wao/wao.php?show&1086
Remember the story of canada’s 1st Terrorist charged under the new rules which was Momin Khawaja from Ottawa, he was the person at the same Mosque as the Arar’s which CAIR’s Lawyers advised them to not help Canada and the RCMP expose Terror-cells in canada.
Shortly after refusing to help protect canada from Jihad, the Arar’s fled to Tunisia to live with her Relatives and one of them was alleged to be linked to the Muslim Brotherhood , that’s why Arar had to flee Tunisia and he chose JFK airport which is very close to CAIR’s NY office and Nihad Awad.
Arar was REFUSED entry to the USA as I was once while in my car and they didin’t think I was a valid visitor , they had the right under the U.N.Charter to send me back to the Place Of Entry
on the Canadian side.
ERGO, Arar had a shady history in the USA and was flagged as a Syrian flying alone on a Canadian Passport which are mostly fake passports from the Middle East , this forced the USA to send him back to Tunisia to be with his family ( we know if he was sent to canada the Media would say the USA denied him to go back to his family) but Tunisia feared an Asylum claim since they didn’t report to Canada that they were there with our Passports .
Only the old quasi Jew-Hating Jordan would take him in to meet up with his family to fly back to canada , his wife never showed and the Arab “Dawg’s” collected the bounty for this Draft-Dodger.
$10 million for an alleged harm will buy lots of Terror-camps in B.C. to train Jihadist before attacking the USA border towns.
I never trusted the guy , nor did I believ that M.P. Mc Donough and Taliban-Jack were that stupid to not know about the Hamas ties and Terrorism links for CAIR and the Ottawa Mosque.
That was the same Mosque that Chretien went to after he told the media that the USA deserved 9/11 , but Chretien wanted to assure Muslims that 9/11 had no ties to Islam .
This he did before visiting Ground-0 to pay respect to the 24 canadian civilians murdered by 19 people claiming they were Muslims and obeying Muhammad to kill the unbelievers and Jews.