Until a few days ago, former Prime Minister Paul Martin was still Catholic, Stephen Harper was affiliated with the Christian Missionary Alliance and the late MacKenzie King used to be a slightly unconventional Presbyterian. Then, this information mysteriously vanished from Wikipedia. A quick online search revealed that the sudden disappearance of information concerning the religious affiliations of Canadian politicians-both dead and alive-was a haphazard editorial decision taken after a brief online discussion between the likes of DoubleBlue, Ducio1234 and Skeezix1000, thus confirming the worst misgivings that so many have about Wikipedia.
In a single swoop, denominational information concerning former prime ministers John Diefenbaker, Lester B. Pearson, Louis St. Laurent, R.B. Bennett, and all others starting from September 25, 1926–when Prime Minister Arthur Meighen left office for the second time–was removed. Perhaps this was a watershed moment in Canadian religious history that I had not known about, maybe DoubleBlue and friends discovered something entirely new about our country’s past, or perhaps they simply have not gotten around to deleting Meighen’s Presbyterianism yet.
h/t Gregg
The fact that people with religious beliefs were actually allowed to hold the office of PM might put the character assassinations of Preston Manning and Stockwell Day into some sort of context. Hence that fact had to go …..
here be our “ducio1234”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ducio1234
Ironically – the profile says ducio is a proud “inclusionist”
Really !
inclusionism is the philosophy that information should be liberally added and retained on Wikipedia. It is espoused by users called inclusionists who favor keeping and amending problematic articles over deleting them. Inclusionists are generally less concerned with the question of notability, and instead focus on whether or not an article is factual, with merit, or useful.
I believe it’s called “communism”
One of the predictions for 2009 I was thinking of making was that neither North Americans nor Europeans were very likely to return to their Judeo-Christian roots and acknowledge the very positive contribution that the Christian faith has made–and still makes–towards the democratic freedoms we all enjoy in the West.
Anyone in doubt about the historical accuracy of Christendom’s very influential and salutary effects on our Western Civilization should read George Weigel’s book “The Cube and the Cathedral: America, Europe, and Politics Without God.”
http://georgeweigel.blogspot.com/2007/12/george-weigel-cube-and-cathedral.html
From a review of the book: “George Weigel, author of an acclaimed biography of the late John Paul II, looks at Europe from a wider and more spiritual perspective than the man in the street or the boulevard, but his book is the other deeper side to the same coin. … its springboard is the question that ordinary European Christians have frequently raised, only to be treated with lofty disdain by their masters: Why did those who drafted the new European Union constitution, including the former French president, Valery Giscard d’Estaing who had overall control of the project, refuse to include any mention in its preamble of the vital role Christianity has played in the moral and cultural formation of Europe, even though Pope John Paul II drew their attention to this omission in no uncertain terms and pleaded with them to remedy it?”
‘Looks like the historical facts of Christianity’s connection to Western Civilization are being wiped out at a furious pace all over the place. ‘Any wonder some of us who are practising Christians are objecting? There will, literally, be Hell to pay for this–and we’re already seeing the negative results in our so-called “human rights” commissions and in the EU’s and UN’s secular humanist and totalitarian list to the left, which are taking away individual freedoms in whichever jurisdictions they poke their noses into.
Those who forget their history are bound to repeat it. Danger ahead.
I wonder when they will extend the ommission to Obamamessiah.
just put in the word “founder”
Who cares? Wikipedia sucks as a source of info anyways! The only real service it has provided of late is a little humour vis a vis the sordid assignation between founder Jimmy Wales and felonious stalker Rachel Marsden, particularly their (inevitable) falling out and subsequent auctioning of clothes he left at her place on E-Bay!
I wouldn’t trust ANY historical info posted in Wikipedia.
Edward Teach I agree that Wikipedia usually sucks as a source of accurate information, however I also see this as more evidence of the trend mentioned by Bath. I continue to witness how the West is imitating the old Soviet Union in revising history, science and just about anything to do with reality in general.
Not entirely unexpected.
Lawrence Solomon contributing his series on Climate Change Deniers in the National Post experienced the same situation when he tried to update erroneous information on the bio of a leading climate (denier) scientist of whom he had met.
Within 30 minutes of him making the changes, the info had been reverted to its original. He tried several times to update the info only to be foiled by ‘wiki-agents’ with names similiar to the story in question. I think I recall that Wiki has a policy of ‘filtering’ what goes up on the big board.
First Wiki, then Google (see Atlas Shrugs). Hmmm?
Right on, batb.
Here’s a paragraph (I’ve divide it into three) from a post by me at Reader Tips earlier today, in response to Jema 54:
‘You end by saying, “That old horrid ghost of regulated action (participation) just brought back to me the Turdo and the years he ruled in Canada attempting to steal our souls and spirits and independence”. As I said, Jema 54, you are SO right!
‘But this has happened all over the West: in Canada, it happened that Trudeau was the incarnation of the Zeitgeist. Why has this disintegration in mores and manners happened all over the place in the past 50 years? My take: Christianity has been shoved aside. (Why was it that Canadians were willing to give in to Trudeau? G.K. Chesterton said, “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.” That about sums it up. BTW, it was committed Christians—pro-lifers, mainly—who fought the Charter tooth and nail. Their concerns were prophetic.)
‘Those with a motivating faith understand, at a deep level, that the individual is not supreme. Though not perfectly worked out, there is an understanding of putting God and others ahead of oneself. When we become our own little gods, unmoored from any sense of responsibility, but knowing our rights—the Charter has been a useful tool for allowing the lowest common denominator to do just that—watch out!)’
Danger right now and ahead, for sure.
(Another book, which documents the foundational role of Christianity in the freedoms and progress of the West, is The Victory of Reason, by Rodney Stark, recommended by Fr. Richard John Neuhaus of First Things.)
BTW, Kate: GR8 headline!
This is clearly the work of the Devil himself; thus we have a new species in Canada denoted as follows:
dictator perpetuo Caesar tributum canadianensis serpens
The proposition that Canadian Prime Ministers had/have religious beliefs offends official cultural secular relativism.
This goes back to the whole Stockwell Day, Stephen Harper, Preston Manning is ‘scary’ rubbish.
After all in a ‘CHRC democracy’ dissenters must be crushed! Ask Ezra Levant, Kate, Free Dominion et al.
Cheers and Happy New Year
Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
Frankenstein Battalion
2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von Baden(Rheinisches) Nr.7(Saarbrucken)
Knecht Rupprecht Division
Hans Corps
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North
just put in the word “founder”
Don’t you mean “flounder”?
I didn’t read all the comments, so maybe it was already told, but Wikipedia can be edited by everybody (I know, I tried, it works). So how’s about putting this info back, where it belongs! Any volunteers?
“Why has this disintegration in mores and manners happened all over the place in the past 50 years? My take: Christianity has been shoved aside.”
I’m not prepared to accept this as cause and effect. I think it has more to do with the loss of a fundamental morality that can be attributed, in part, to the psychological impact of two huge world wars. My experience and observation over 60 years does not credit Christianity with any particularly superior role in cultural morality. In fact, My experiences are just the opposite: weekly church attendees and those that profess faith during the course of ordinary secular business, have turned out, in my limited experience, to be the least moral or ethical in their secular doings. Oddly, I’m finding this to be particularly the case in my dealings online with merchants for whom “praise the Lord” sentiments are especially obvious in their literature. The “Sunday Christian” is of course legendary in any community small enough for people to know the business of their neighbours.
Catholicism has historically been perhaps the single most important factor in determining who forms Canada’s government. Catholics and immigrants have traditionally and consistently strongly supported the Liberals. It’s only recently begun to change; in 2000, 54 percent of Catholics, and 72 percent of Canadians with non-European roots, voted Liberal, but Catholic support for Liberals support began to slip in 2004, and in 2006, for the first time ever, more Catholics (slightly — 42 percent to 40) picked the Conservatives over the Liberals, vs. 64 percent of Protestants.
Disproportionate levels of support from women, non-Europeans (72 percent in 2000) and Catholics have kept the Liberals in power, more or less. And traditional Catholic support for Democrats has been a big factor in US elections too, so it’s hard to understand why the Wiki-finger editors would decide that religious affiliation is off the table. Even if party support wasn’t connected to religion, the church affiliation of leaders is at least of biographical interest.
ulianov: “Why should anyone be surprised that references to religious affiliation are removed?”
Who said anything about being surprised? This is just the same old, same old suppression of reality that secular humanist socialism feels the need to do in order to get their view of the world accepted and sanctioned. I’m not surprised, just digusted.
Socialism doesn’t like Christianity and the competition it poses to its world view? Well, easy, hey, no hay problema.
Just deep six it. No one will notice. Or, if anyone does, we’ll just marginalize them, bully them, put them down, make out that their views are subversive, oppressive, non-inclusive, offensive, intolerant–have I left anything out?
Look at what has happened in countries where Christianity and the institutions founded on Judeo-Christian values have been outlawed, the U.S.S.R., for instance. Priests and nuns nailed to church doors, churches turned into museums and other utilitarian edifices, believers sent to the Gulag, all personal freedoms completely truncated with all power residing in the state.
That’s not what I want for my country.
My Canada includes Christianity.
Anyone who uses Wikipedia as a resource is an internet illiterate moron. Buy an encyclopedia you cheap schlubs!
I know Iggy is not PM and may never be PM. I don’t want him to be PM. But is is theoretically possible. So here is a quote from a Globe Q&A, such as it is, about Iggy’s religious leanings:
Michael Valpy: He [Iggy] is not a churchy guy, Ms. Stewart. I think he occasionally attends a Russian Orthodox service with his brother, but that’s it.
Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060825.wlivelibsiggy0828/BNStory/Front/?pageRequested=all
The reference to the Globe article is in Wiki. Don’t know if it will be expunged should Iggy make 24 Sussex.
“Hitler was raised by Roman Catholic parents, but after he left home, he never attended Mass or received the sacraments.[272] In private Hitler made at least one attack against Catholicism that “resonated Streicher’s contention that the Catholic establishment was allying itself with the Jews.”[273] However, as Richard Steigmann-Gall points out when explaining the institutional particularities of religion in Nazi Germany, in a country in which the Catholic and the Protestant church are largely financed through a church tax collected by the state, Hitler (like Goebbels) never “actually left his church or refused to pay church taxes. In a nominal sense therefore [he] can be classified as Catholic.”[274]”
Wiki
other famous Catholics that arent so obvious
Joe Clark
John Turner
Joe owed his last election victory, not to RCs but to the big gay contingency in his riding and the lieberals pulling their candidate at the last minute in order to win the riding over Reform.
shall we say politics make strange bedfellows.
RCs and gays, lieberals and red PCs.
A contemptible act on the part of Wikipedia; but not the first. The only information about which they attempt complete coverage is sex. I thought about donating to them – Wikipedia is a valuable resource for computer science and mathematics, and, SO FAR, for physics; but thought better of it.
I noted during his last campaign that it was reported that Paul Martin Jr. went to Mass every Sunday.
And I seem to recollect that even Pierre Trudeau was described by his sister as an old-fashioned Catholic gentleman.
The first “political” deletion from Wikipedia of which I am aware was of the article about “Spengler”, the writer for Asia Times Online.
The thing I like about the web is I don’t -have- to trust one source or one search engine. If needs must I can actually -gasp!- email somebody who knows the info I want to know.
This robust diversity of sources protects me from the MSM monoculture. If the twits who infest Wikipedia and Google want to do the same history modification practiced by the MSM, they will share the same fate: bankruptcy.
The difference between Wiki and the big media is Wiki will go down really fast. Google the same. Anybody still use Lycos to search?
DoubleBlue, Ducio1234 and Skeezix1000…..however good their intentions, are just wasting their time deleting religion from Wikipedia. I would prefer them to spend their efforts deleting it from the real world!
I second lookout’s recommendation of the book “Victory of Reason”, by Rodney Stark. Its subtitle is: “How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism and Western Success”. The book’s main thesis is that, alone among ancient religions, Christianity allowed scope for reason in understanding God, and that reason was applied to improving the lives of Europeans from the so-called “Dark Ages” onward.
Some examples cited:
“Paper, which was manufactured by hand and foot for a thousand years or so following its invention by the Chinese and adoption by the Arabs, was manufactured mechanically as soon as it reached medieval Europe in the thirteenth century.”
“Thus, the invention of eyeglasses in about 1284 in northern Italy had dramatic effects on productivity. Without glasses, large numbers of medieval craft workers were washed up at forty. With glasses, not only could most of these people continue, but because of their experience, their most productive years still lay ahead…Within a century after their invention, the mass production of eyeglasses occupied plants in both Florence and Venice, turning out tens of thousands of eyeglasses a year. Even so, in 1492, when Columbus set sail, eyeglasses were still known only in Europe.”
The Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark, published 2005 by Random House. ISBN 1-4000-6228-4.
felis corpulentis, thank you for that! My husband bought this book and I’ve only read the intro. I’m going to put it at the top of my 2009 “To Read” pile.
A Happy and Blessed New Year to you and everyone else here!
P.S. Like it or not, everyone’s Canada includes Christianity. It can be censored out by the totalitarians of the left, but that doesn’t change the reality. As Wm. Gairdner would say, “Oh, oh Canada”.
But where do the athesists/agnostics fit in? Personally,I really don’t give a flying monkey’s fart what anybodies religion is,as long I can practice mine,and you can pratice yours,WITHOUT death threats,bombings,tearing down of religious icons,etc.Ooooppppppsssss.Guess I just ruled out Islam!! Okay.So I do give a fart about a peadophiles “religion” and its death cult followers.
Well, Justthinkin, like the rest of us in the West, the agnostics and atheists benefit from the cultural riches bestowed on us by the Judeo-Christian dispensation. We are not islands unto ourselves and, like it or not, Christianity has done a great deal of good in the world.
Re that other religion. I agree with you! And, if we in the West aren’t willing to defend our own culture–we have lost the religious zeal the other religion has, in spades–we’ll find, soon enough, that that other religion has taken over: allowing that to happen, through apathy towards and ignorance about our own religious roots, is not a smart move on our part.
Without trying to vaunt one over the other but I can’t help but notice as does the atheist who thinks the best thing for Africa is Christianity is the level of democracy in a society is almost directly proportionate to the society’s view of the individual’s relationship with God. In a society where Catholicism is dominate the society tends to be more dependent on the all knowing elite aka socialism in it mildest form. In societies which Protestantism prevails the elite’s control is somewhat diminished. In the Catholic society the individual has a filter between himself and the Deity in the form of the priest and the Church. In the Protestant society everyone is expected to interact with the Deity because Protestants believe more strongly in the Priesthood of the believers. Canada with its large Catholic population tends to be more socialist than the USA which has a higher level of Protestantism. Alberta with its history of American immigration/Protestant having greater influence than Catholic tends to be less socialist than Quebec. Even more interesting is the Mennonite wedge North of Saskatoon has never elected an NDP MLA.
I live and work in a mid-sized city in on the west coast of the US. The single biggest use of computers owned by the city is editing entries in Wikipedia. I’ve been told by a retired city dep’t manager that 30% of his former employees did no meaningful work at all. My point is that if you use Wikipedia for anything at all you better have at least two other sources.
Under the Libs, the Speaker’s Office decided to unlist each MP’s religious affiliation, so the list of MPs at http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MembersOfParliament/MainMPsCompleteList.aspx?TimePeriod=Current&Language=E now shows only basic bio data. The religious affiliation of MPs was quite useful in analyzing voting patterns. Well, the next step was to try to find this info on Wikipedia. It looks like we’ll have to find some other method now!
lookout
the chinese were far advanced at one point in history, all without the benifit of christianity
I read the discussion by DoubleBlue, Ducio1234 and Skeezix100 of this issue and then read their bios or whatever they call it in their Sandboxes. They seem to be self-important Wiki-twits. I really only use Wiki for musicians/songs now that most political and historical information is unreliable thanks to edits by Wiki-twits.
Actually Stark deals, in his book, with some of the other civilizations that may have been thought as advanced. About the Chinese, he notes: “Bertrand Russell found the lack of Chinese science rather baffling. From the perspective of his militant atheism, China should have had science long before Europe…why didn’t Chinese scholars want to do science?…because it didn’t occur to the Chinese that science was possible. Western science was born of the enthusiastic conviction that the human intellect can penetrate nature’s secrets.” pp.16-17
About compatibility of a certain other widespread religion with science, Stark notes: “Allah is not presented as a lawful creator but is conceived of as an extremely active God who intrudes on the world as he deems it appropriate. This prompted the formation of a major theological bloc within Islam that condemns all efforts to formulate natural laws as blasphemy in that they deny Allah’s freedom to act. Thus Islam did not fully embrace the notion that the universe ran along fundamental principles laid down by God at the creation but assumed that the world was sustained by His will on a continuing basis.” pp.20-21.
I bet if one listed their religion as “Jedi”, they’d leave it alone.
Posted by: lookout at December 31, 2008 5:50 PM>
“the agnostics and atheists benefit from the cultural riches bestowed on us by the Judeo-Christian dispensation”
True to a degree, but many so early innovators called Christians such as scientists, philosophers and statesmen in history were indeed atheists & agnostics. It simply did not bode well on ones career to express otherwise. I would say a mutual development of western technology and civilization. (Please don’t make me dredge up the names of these people; anyone can do it with a little research).
Posted by: GYM at December 31, 2008 6:26 PM>
“the Chinese were far advanced at one point in history, all without the benefit of Christianity”
True to a point…. Then what happened? Today materialistic Asia is a carbon copy of western civilization as far as structural and class systems go, basically a parrot of western thinking. The 10% Asian thinking that still lingers in the minds of most modern Asians is the cultural separation between us. In my opinion some of it is beneficial for them, but it also keeps them “back of the bus” for an advanced society.
Knight 99 writes, “Today materialistic Asia is a carbon copy of western civilization as far as structural and class systems go, basically a parrot of western thinking”.
Huh? Please explain.
Posted by: lookout at December 31, 2008 10:53 PM>
“Huh? Please explain”.
Ok.
A distinction needs to first be made between rural and urban Asian societies. I’m referring to modern urban Asia, “the face of Asia today”.
The modern Asia “Asian” views successful modern living as skyscrapers and western styled shopping malls, owning a Mercedes or BMW with 2.1 university brats and a club membership as the cream Del la crème of society. None of which is an Asian invention or innovation. Polo & Cartier shirts, executive golfing weekends and expensive western white wedding dress ceremonies with a traditional round Chinese style dinner fill in the blanks.
Western education and classical skills such as ballet and piano are impressed on their children to the degree of causing emotional and psychological damage (over 50% of Singaporean children require glasses due to excessive reading in bad lighting). The introduction of American fast food to Asia has created a whole new class of obese with emphasis on China with its one child policy that has created a spoilt single obese child syndrome that will shock historians to wonder.
The entertainment industry, from Japan through to Indonesia mimics western entertainers from George Carlen to Britney Spears. Including, cop dramas to soaps to news and how it’s presented (sports, weather, special in depth reports and all). Try Disneyland Japan on for size.
From the uptown “Metro sexual” to Japan’s western street impressionists and urban fad impersonators, modern Asia is a copy of western civilization. In Asia all that works from mechanical to fashion and lifestyle, is by western design and oversight. Yes indeed we have made an impression on some in the world; unfortunately those Judeo-Christian values you mentioned earlier did not follow nearly as closely.
Thank you, Knight 99, for the explanation.
So, Asia is a complete counterfeit of Western society: all style and no substance.
Unfortunately, the West seems to be not far behind, but we’ve sold our birthright for a few beans. What an incredible waste. What a travesty. Stupid us.
Kyrie eleison.
Posted by: lookout at December 31, 2008 11:54 PM>
“So, Asia is a complete counterfeit of Western society: all style and no substance.”
Wow thank you lookout – the best analysis of my point than I could have expected!
To be clear – I also think Asians are GREAT people and I have many Asian friends who are so. I will criticize our western culture with as much fervor if the issue calls for it. That said there is no other culture in our Canadian midst that either adapts to our ways so well or keeps to itself without intruding on our unique western ways. Asians in general are not an intrusive peoples and most welcome by this Canadian!
“So, Asia is a complete counterfeit of Western society: all style and no substance.”
The term “The Land of almost Right” is aptly applied to Asian Copycats. What they miss can be hilarious, but they do try.
Posted by: Phillip G. Shaw at January 1, 2009 4:42 AM >
He he – yes sir you most certainly know what I was attempting to diplomatically express 🙂
Happy New Year!
when we decide to drop the 10 commandments then morality slides down the drain. christian beliefs and values are the underpinning of our law and society. dismiss them and you lose.
old white guy, you’ve got it!
Happy New Year!
This assumes that someone cannot be a moral person unless they choose to believe in your particular religion, which is no different than what the Muslim fanatics claim; for my part, I don’t really CARE which particular myth someone chooses to believe in, just so long as they keep it to themselves and don’t try to shove it down anyone else’s throat.
Wikipedia has been begging for money, and this example posted by Kate illustrates perfectly why I will never give them a dime.
It is run mostly by left-leaning liberal zealots who go to enormous lengths to slant things to their liking.
For example just try adding a few facts to balance out the article on Pierre Trudeau. The zealots will immediately undo your changes and will also threaten you.
Let me give you an example of the subtle bias in Wikipedia. Consider this sentence from the introduction in the entry for Harper:
“With fewer actual votes[3] than in 2006, Harper’s Conservative Party won a strengthened minority position in the October 2008 federal election,….”
The phrase “With fewer actual votes” has been put there to try and downplay the significance of the Conservative win in the last election.
Wikipedia is *riddled* with such stuff, all designed to slant the so-called encyclopaedia to the left wherever possible.
SDC, what an altogether ignorant comment. Figure that out for yourself–if you can.
Wikipedia seem a nice idea at first, a collaborative environment for people to share knowledge that is not controlled for anybody in particular. However it is liable to something similar to “the tragedy of the commons”. Nobody owns it, nobody answer for it, anything goes, it become abused and, in this case, unreliable.
I’m sorry, lookout, but what is ignorant, is your response to SDC. I happen to concur with SDC that ALL religions are exclusive in their moral certitude. Tribal man has had a belief system for the purpose of survival from time immemorial, most of which didn’t rely on any one single concept of God as the reference for the unexplainable. All religions are mythologies. Whether or not there is substance beyond the mythology has never been demonstrable beyond blind faith.
Its simply not correct to ascribe morality to Christianity or any other religion exclusively. In most cases religions simply codify behavior norms according to a popular consent, referring to an irrefutable authority to eliminate challenge.
The diversity of the mythologies is why we have secular law, in order to provide a uniform behavior code that transcends religious diversity.
As much as I distrust accepting anything on WP at face value, I can’t trust most things on the internet anything on the web just b/c they are there. All things have to be corroborated. Note that religions of PM’s have either been restored to Wikipedia or never were expunged in the first place (we’ll never know), hence the unreliability.