The victims mother and her family;
…have asked David Carbland, the president of Saskatchewan Cutlery Retailers, to speak on their behalf as she grieves the loss of her son.
Carbland questioned whether implement profiling played a part in the encounter.
“Why does it seem to be people heading to the dinner table that seem to fall prey to this extra force against us?” he asked.
“Is there a better way that could have handled a man with a knife in his hand?”
Options:
(a) Hand-to-hand combat — probably using a tonfa or traditional “bugger beater” — to disarm the punk, who may well be mentally disturbed or hopped up on methamphetamine, etc.;
(b) Use of sidearm or shotgun;
(c) Use of vicious Alsatian or Belgian, if available;
(d) Taser.
Result in each instance: punk loses; cops face allegations of racism and police brutality.
I hate this city.
Half the people are crying for police to do more, the other half are demanding lawyers and enquiries every time they do.
Slightly off topic,
My parents have foster children — all native. One was involved in a violent crime (he’s learning disabled) and put down his weapon when the police caught him. He wasn’t tasered or shot. The other kids have an equal chance of being tasered or shot, because they know what authority is.
The real crime? When the court officer told my parents that my foster brother won’t be going to jail because “…they try to keep aborginal young offenders out of the system.”
Now, reflect on that. Not only are they “over-represented” in the court system, the government is actively keeping their numbers down.
(Although, to be fair, this case it made sense. Putting my foster brother in a youth center would guarantee he would never be a productive member of society.)
The next time a suspect refuses to disarm, send in the anti-taser crusaders and see how they deal with the situation. Perhaps a Vulcan mind-meld to better understand the aggrieved perpetrator’s state of mind? Just try to concentrate while being stabbed repeatedly in the neck.
I just can’t seem to generate sympathy for someone who commits crimes and then doesn’t listen to the police. That will always end up badly. I don’t know why that is so hard to understand. Whether you are native or any other race, not listening to the police and brandishing weapons will end badly for you.
You can bring up past problems and list off excuses till you are blue in the face, but it comes down to this young man making bad choices. You always have a choice, it might not be an appetizing one, but you have one. My people (Ukrainians) went through a lot as well, but we prevailed and don’t use it as a crutch.
When a policeman yells stop, you stop
When a policeman tells you to drop your weapon, you drop your weapon.
When a policeman tells you to put your hands on your head, you put your hands on your head.
This is not rocket science. All you have to do is obey the commands.
It should read policeman/woman…..
Obviously it’s painful for a mother to lose her son under any circumstances, but that doesn’t mean it’s the police officers fault.
Using the Winnipeg example specifically, IF you have a weapon in your hand and disobey commands to drop it, and make any type of menacing gesture or advance whatsoever, you risk being shot or TASERed.
If you die as a result, it’s your fault. In this case, it’s her son’s fault.
It sucks for everyone, but I wish she would shut the f– up about blaming the cops for her son’s actions. And, yes, I said that.
“Is there a better way that could have handled a man with a knife in his hand?”
Yes, indeed lady. It’s elementary, see? The best way for your criminal brat not to be tasered by police is not to threaten the police with a knife, not to be a thief and not to break the law at all.
Non-criminals aren’t at risk of being tasered – regardless of race.
Oh, and the reason for your kid’s degeneracy becomes apparent when Mom comes out against the law and for the lawbreaker. When I got in trouble at school, my parents didn’t yell at the principle. I got that treatment when they got me home. In the end, I am not a dead criminal. Look in the mirror if you want to see who is to blame.
I guess it’s impossible to comment intelligently since I wasn’t there. But, I must say that I do believe the taser is being over-used.
And when we look at the case at the Vancouver airport and compare the video with what the police originally claimed of the circumstances, we can see that you shouldn’t always take the officers’ words as gold.
They too have an instinct that makes them want to keep their jobs and power/position.
I am also suspicious of situations where there are several officers on the scene and only one suspect. I would expect that police officers should be trained well enough to disarm a suspect one-on-one – but, I am willing to concede that, in such a situation, the taser might be appropriate. But, when the offender is outnumbered, I would think that (with time on their side), the police would have enough of an upper hand to be able to handle the situation without the taser.
Tasers were supposed to be introduced to give officers a less-lethal option when dealing with suspects in situations where they would have otherwise (in the old days) had to use a gun. I always start off examining these situations by asking, “In the same circumstances, 30 years ago, would the officers involved had pulled their guns?” If the answer is “no” (as is becoming more and more the case), I conclude that usage creep is indeed the problem.
Have you noticed that the police-kill-man-with-knife incidents seem to be a lot higher now that cops have “less-lethal” options like the taser? I do not claim it as a fact…but, I suspect it is precisely because cops find that it is more convenient (and lighter on laundry bills) to zap a person rather than risk wrestling with them.
Also, it is not difficult to imagine cops getting a bit of a god-complex and zapping someone a little longer than necessary – just to teach them a lesson.
Some brain surgeon ovet at the CBC website suggested the cops go back to using guns because then they could shoot the subject in the leg!
Malcolm Cross: Some brain surgeon ovet at the CBC website suggested the cops go back to using guns because then they could shoot the subject in the leg!
Bad TV is to blame for that one. Too many people see on TV where the cop disables the bad guy without killing them. They assume that since it’s on TV, that’s GOTTA be how it’s done in real life. Then one of these incidents happen, and they find out one thing:
POLICE OFFICERS ARE TRAINED TO SHOOT TO KILL IF IT COMES TO THAT.
Like Warwick said: If you listen to the police when he/she says “drop the weapon”, you don’t get killed. Simple as that.
How dare this woman lash out in grief! She should be downright grateful that her son was Tasered rather than shot to death. She really has nothing to complain about.
SDA, classy as always.
Andrew:
Having been a police officer for 30 years, I have to correct you. Police officers are NOT trained to shoot to kill…they are trained to shoot to HIT. Ergo, they are trained to aim for the torso, which is the largest area of mass of a person.
Serving a first nations gentleman a drink,make that four drinks,I didn’t move two feet away before he had polished them off and was demanding four more.I served him the four more with a caution that I couldn’t continue to serve him at that pace,I did have other customers.Big mistake.His rant started with how much of a racist I was and got to the point of him actually putting words in my mouth claiming I called him an f#ing indian,and all this was a little odd seeng as this man was the size of a bus and could have eatin me,or drank me as this was the case.
Why do the critics focus on odds (“suspicious of situations where there are several officers on the scene and only one suspect”.
These episodes aren’t sporting events. There is no requirement of parity. The police are supposed to win. How they win is determined by the reactions and attitudes of the suspect.
Life or death situations aren’t to be trifled with. Police aren’t paid enough to take unnecessary risks with their own lives. If the suspect doesn’t disarm when so ordered, one can only assume that they intend to make use of that weapon.
Same argument regarding shooting to wound. If the officers think they want to take that risk, I suppose I’m good with that. But they shouldn’t be required to; if they need to draw their weapon and fire, I would rather it be because it was necessary to do so with full intent of inflicting lethal force.
QE
grief or not, do you notice that white mothers of people killed by the police don’t try to explain their offspring’s criminality by screeming “racism” at the cops – even if the cop doing the shooting isn’t the same race?
I will confirm Bruce’s statement. Police officers are indeed trained to shoot for body mass (ie. chest/abdomen). I can’t believe some people think an officer is going to pick a limb and aim for it.
Too many cop TV shows probably.
Maybe the mother of this young man should ride with the police to a similar scene where she can be put directly in harm’s way to show her just how dangerous the situation really is.
Maybe then she’d change her views on police shootings/tasings.
I agree with bryceman; I think that the taser has moved from being an option to be used in extreme situations to one used as a basic and easy strategy. As he notes, it’s ‘user creep’; the use has crept up on us.
The fact is – it’s lethal. It is akin to a gun. The question then moves to – is the use of lethal force the best option in this situation?
In the BC airport, I’d suggest that it was a ‘worst option’ – and I hope that the police and the airport, are sued, heavily, for his death.
Same thing in this situation, frankly.
Was the youth actually attacking the police or anyone? Or, was it the case that he had a ‘knife in his hand’?
Tasers kill. Do the police have the right to kill when their own lives, and the lives of others, are not being directly attacked? I don’t think so.
ET,
Ditto. But not in this case*. Crook with knife gets whacked.
Crook without knife should not be tasered.
Tasered should only be used if a shooting would be justified. Tasers are an alternative only to guns.
* unless crook did drop knife and cops tasered anyway. That is different. There is nothing to suggest this is the case though so I’ll be giving the benefit of the doubt to the cops and not the crook.
from bryceman at July 24, 2008 12:52 PM
“Have you noticed that the police-kill-man-with-knife incidents seem to be a lot higher now that cops have “less-lethal” options like the taser?”
I’d like to see how many FEWER police are getting injured on the job, since we don’t seem to care about what they have to put up with. I prefer more injured criminals and less injured police.
Though it’s been said already, Do What They Tell You, and you won’t get shot/tasered/restrained.
iam personally tossed on the taser, To use or not to use.
How does the officer take down a Hopped Up Knife/Gun Wielding person or anyone else that is in a deranged state of mind, Without causing injury to Himself or the assailant or any Innocent bystander.
I lost a cousin a few years back in London,On when he was trying to calm down a situation & come to the rescue of a friend outside a bar When he was stabbed to Death,(This was before the Police arrived)He was a very young man early 20’s, He enjoyed music, Art & Life but had his life taken to all to soon.
If you have a knife and threaten to use it on a cop or anyone else I guess the bleeding hearts would want the cops to offer the criminal a choice . possible death by a taser or pretty much guaranteed death from his gun. After all the cops have all the time in the world to discuss the situation. Wake up folks.
I do find myself agree’d with ET that the taser should be used as a last resort before using a gun, i.e. if I hear that someone unarmed got tasered and died, I’d be kind of pissed if the officers hadn’t tried other ways of subduing him and simply tasered him to save time.
It seems to me in this case it was justified, since he had a knife. I would not expect a police officer or officers no matter how many of them are there to disarm a knife wielder hand to hand. It would be nice if they had a beanbag shotgun in their car, but again, there’s risks associated with that as well, and I doubt they had time to run back to their car just to get out a special shotgun.
Warwick: “grief or not, do you notice that white mothers of people killed by the police don’t try to explain their offspring’s criminality by screeming “racism” at the cops – even if the cop doing the shooting isn’t the same race?”
Oh, so a mother’s grief over her lost teenage son is acceptable–unless she plays the race card, in which case it becomes perfectly acceptable to immediately and sarcastically lampoon her indescribable emotional pain in public, despite having no connection to the incident whatsoever other than the fact that one finds one of the mother’s comments disagreeable? Is that the new rule?
I’m sorry, but if two officers can’t take a knife away from a skinny 17 year kid, its time for some new poice training. It would be interesting to do a Canada wide survey of police officers 50 years and older and see how many of them ever drew their gun or taser in the line of duty. Speaking a 49 year old citizen, this kind of stuff never happended in my day.
What kind of country are we living in when wielding a knife in front of a cop and refusing to drop it gets you tasered? Why don’t the cops just use a spoon? Right? Am I missing something here? Okay? See what I mean?
Pardon my spelling on the last post. “police training”
Well, by all means, I am not on the twerp’s side, but if you shoot someone in the torso with a .45 acp they are going down with a good chance of going down dead.
But, either way, I still don’t think that However the Police dis-mantle, or dis-arm you is the correct argument. If the Police tell you to drop your weapon, then Jesus H. Christ, Drop Your Weapon.
,
staff at Phychriatric wards deal with these kind of threats everday. How come they don’t have to teaser patients that get a hold of lethal weapons?
Speaking as a 33-year-old, sg, in your day you had fewer thugs taking on the cops with knives. I’d rather have a potentially-hurt and/or killed thug than a hurt cop.
But that’s just me. I’m sure various special interest groups would disagree.
sg
“””””Pardon my spelling on the last post. “police training””””
don’t apologise for your spelling, apologise for your stupidity, things have changed a lot in recent years. One of those chages happen to be population numbers. Another is attitude amoungst certain demographics, so comparing “yesterday” to today is dishonest, ‘specialy in the manner you did!!!!!
The man tasered in the Vancouver airport was suffering from either nicotine deprivation enhanced by stress or he was hopped up on nicotine drugs enhanced by the same stress. If he had quit chain smoking cold turkey THAT day, his nerves were already stressed to the limit and then his mother was not there to meet him (she was there but had been told that her son was not there so she went back to Kamloops)and the airport did not communicate circumstances to him – he did not speak English or French – or he was hopped up on nicotine drugs for the same stress reasons, and his heart was stressed out to the max before he was tasered. Were the police informed about this problem before they arrived? I doubt it but I do not know, maybe they were told to feel free to rid the sterile B.C. lower mainland of another potential dirty tobacco smoker. If they had been told that this man was worthless because he was a tobacco smoker, then their actions in that case were indeed an abuse of power and criminal, IMO.
The above case is different and it jibes with a case that I do know about. A policeman in the Yukon who chased down a car thief, the thief had had lethal killing training in jail and he grabbed the policeman (the policeman had persued the theif on foot after the crook had jumped out of the stolen vehicle) and tried to strangle him. The policeman got hold of his gun and shot the thief in the knee but the thief would not let go. Before he lost his own life, the policeman shot the thief in the chest and the thief died. The thief was a jailbird, the policeman was a husband, a son and a father.
Of course there was a big hullabaloo about it by the left wing nuts and the policeman was harassed in court and blamed by the newspapers for killing an ‘misguided kid’. It was horrible. The policeman and his family left town after the judge had ‘grieved’ for the death of the thief but not imprisoned the policeman who had been doing his job.
We have a choice here folks – citizens doing their own dirty work or allow the police to do their job for us.
per sg @ 3:42 “staff at Phychriatric wards deal with these kind of threats everday. How come they don’t have to teaser patients that get a hold of lethal weapons?” Because staff at psychiatric wards don’t deal with the ones wielding lethal weapons. They call security and/or the police. Staff at the psychiatric wards subdue the ones that are unarmed once they’ve determined the risk of injury to themselves is minimal. Then they pile in en-masse with security backing them up. Been there, done it.
SG:
Phyc. wards do deal with situations everyday, However in those situations patients are usually sedated state & when a situation arises they are sedated even more & confined to a bed or a lockdown.
“Non-criminals aren’t at risk of being tasered – regardless of race.”
This has been discredited already.
“When a policeman yells stop, you stop…”
No I don’t. I will not stop unless it is justified, not because he is a a’hole and wants to bully someone. Depending on the situation cops are not always there to help you; for example, during a domestic dispute I’m aware of the cops were given the woman advise like “if you leave the house take your kids or your husband will have a strong claim to them.”, and this woman was the cause of the disturbance. The cops know that it is preferred that kids are not moved from their home because of domestic disputes, but typically it is the man who leaves the home so the kids stay with mom. This is a blatant example of meddling and anti-father policy.
Another example(this one personal) I cuffed my daughter (8 or 9 at the time) in the back of the head. Without knowing why I cuffed her, some cop and his she partner came up to me and roughed me up in front of my daughter, and warned me not to do that again “or else”. I proceeded to tell the cops to “F’ themselves and arrest me if they can”. This pu%$y tried to intimidate me with his stares, his badge and his club. He’s lucky he had his badge because it saved his neck, he put his hands on me infront of my daughter, enouph said. I do not trust cops and their motives just because they are cops, I judge them one by one. Most cops I’ve dealt with I hold in high esteem but I am not going to bend over and allow them to apply their high school psychology on me, nor will I succumb to their haughty attitudes and power trips.
“Pullin out a silly club, so you stand
with a fake-assed badge and a gun in your hand
But take off the gun so you can see what’s up
And we’ll go at it punk, and I’ma f you up!”
(MC REN/NWA)
Oh ya, I support cops carrying tasers.
For those of you who think that taking a knife away from someone is child’s play you’re fooling yourself.
A knife is a DEADLY weapon. Why do you think the Brits are so up in arms over knife violence?
If an individual has a knife the options for an officer drop to only one.
The gun.
Plain and simple.
Unless an officer has a taser.
For this kid to be tasered was considerably less lethal than getting shot. Unfortunately he died.
Please people. Inform yourselves before saying silly things.
MT
Bryceman: Smart post. Well-argued. That’s what I think too: use only where otherwise a gun would be used. I like your “useage-drift”. That’s a bureaucratic thing, eh? Not unlike mission creep.
The Polish guy: unarmed; several cops; zero justification.
This Indian guy with the knife: questionable. Surely he could have been overpowered by a group of cops, whereas actually lunging toward a single cop tasering would seem justified.
But I also think sg makes a solid point: I DO believe that policing has been softened, diluted, by affirmative action and political correctness. I don’t find myself impressed with the cops I see, which is not to say that I don’t have enormous empathy for the crap they have to put up with.
To: Agree. Is that a brown spot I see on the end of your nose!! I’ll ditto Indiana Homez!! It’s not about race, it’s about candy assed cops who couldn’t handle a stray cat, much less an angry kid!
In the 1970’s in Montana, I saw a Sheriff who was well into his 60’s arrest two drunken cowboys and throw them in the back of a cruiser with his bare hands!! In Maple Creek, Saskatchewan in the late 60’s, I saw a Mountie throw three natives to the ground in a bar brawl outside the Commercial Hotel!! Guess who went to jail for the night!! I’m a right wing conservative, but I will never condone the use of weapons on an unarmed citizen!!
PS: If a cop needs a Tazer to handle a teenager, why can’t I have a 357 Mag. to protect myself against “incidentals.” Heil Hitler!!
sg – “but if two officers can’t take a knife away from a skinny 17 year kid, its time for some new poice (sic) training.”
I was roaming the ‘peg’s night streets with an insane amount of steel at that age.
Anyone that thinks it safe to take a blade away from a guy who doesn’t give a fig…
…we usually care such people idiots
…CALL such people idiots.
Sigh. The despair and nihilism reached across decades to mess with my spelling.
QE,
“Oh, so a mother’s grief over her lost teenage son is acceptable–unless she plays the race card, in which case it becomes perfectly acceptable to immediately and sarcastically lampoon her…”
You did sum it up nicely. I lose all sympathy, all respect and all tolerance for some idiot with a chip on their shoulder screaming “racist” at the first available opportunity.
I would bet we would both be disgusted if the kid was white and the cop black and the Mom started going on about N***ers. If it was that way around, you’d be on her in seconds and don’t pretend otherwise.
The only difference is you’re a hypocrite and I’m consistent.
Col. Fairbairn remarked in his writings on hand-to-hand combat that against a knife there is no sure means of defence, absent another knife or a firearm.
A quick skinny 17 year old with a knife, assuming he knows how to use it, can be a lethally dangerous adversary.
As for the matter of age, just look up the number of soldiers who distinguished themselves in combat before they were 18 – e.g. Tommy Ricketts, who won the V.C. with the Royal Newfoundland Regiment at the age of 17.
Ok I’ve read here and numerous other places online that the police should be able to disarm a suspect in a one-on-one encounter.
That is simply to much Hollywood.
Speak with any use of force expert, martial art expert. Heck talk to Jackie CHAN. If a motivated person has a knife you have a very good chance of being stabbed if you attempt to disarm hand to hand.
Your ultimate fighting championship guys who spend hours a day training would be hard pressed to do so without injury. My SWAG would be they would not get injured less then 1 time in 20.
Now a policeman who must spend hours a day on paperwork can’t be as well trained as a person whose profession is combat.
No if you want to disarm an armed man use a tool.
If you don’t want to be disarmed don’t be a criminal.
Did I mention that the race card WAS played in the Yukon incident?
Texas Ranger, I grew up in the Cypress Hills during the 1960s, thieves received a short shift in my neighbourhood – Maple Creek is the main Sask. town in Cypress Hills. The police in Great Falls/Maple Creek were arresting drunk cowboys/Indians and some of them might have been my relatives – the drunks probably had guns (and knew how to use them) but they would have never pulled a gun on a Policeman or a knife – they were just as tough as the policeman likely but drunk! They just spent the night in the drunk tank and went to breakfast as usual the next day (maybe with the policeman!) if they were broke the policeman probably lent the cowboy/Indian some money to buy some gas for his truck.
Things were different then – people were even allowed to smoke cigarettes IN jail and IN public. Canadians could still own property and they had respect for themselves and other people – we still had some tough WWII and WWI vets around to keep things in prospective.
How dare this woman lash out in grief! She should be downright grateful that her son was Tasered rather than shot to death. She really has nothing to complain about.
SDA, classy as always.
Posted by: QE at July 24, 2008 1:29 PM
Boo flucking hoooooooooooooooooooo, if this woman had of parented her child to repect law and order he’d be alive and kicking.
The lefts’ hatred of the police is down right ugly, yet they’re the first person to scream victim should someone look at them crossed eyed.
It ain’t rocket science, when he failed to comply with a lawful demand from a police officer he broke the law. It’s easy for arm chair cowards to talk about disarming someone wielding a knife, it’s not as esay as it sounds. Of course a dead cop or badly cut up cop is okay as long as the criminal scum bag is okay and fit to go home to Momsey Dearest.
I’m sick of parents blaming the cops, if they’d stop treating their children like kids when they reaach adulthood alot of societies problems would be solved. Honestly I’m sick of the left blaming everyone for the consequences of their own actions.
“I agree with bryceman; I think that the taser has moved from being an option to be used in extreme situations to one used as a basic and easy strategy. As he notes, it’s ‘user creep’; the use has crept up on us.”
ET, but I agree with what you said but it’s irrelevant in this case.
The young man was carrying a lethal weapon. At close quarters, oh… tens of millions of people in history have been killed with edged and pointed weapons. Many of these will be killed today.
Using a TASER which can, but usually doesn’t, cause a lethal injury is an entirely reasonable police response in this case.
Texas Ranger, how about the incident here in Toronto a few years ago where the unarmed citizen beat a female police officer so badly she spent months in the hospital and would have been killed if several passers-bye had not jumped the thug.
The police TV programs video from their cars shows many times officers getting punched in the face by unarmed larger people.
There definitely has been a change in attitude of our young people. Their lack of respect and aggresiveness has been condoned in our schools and by their mostly single parents and now the police have to deal with them and reflect their attitude.
If we as citizens are frightened to go into many areas of our cities why would we expect officers not to have those fears. Having had several years of martial arts training we were always taught to be leary of knives especially if the attacker was experienced in their use. Police don’t have the option we were taught of quickly backing away.
I agree with posters who said drop the weapon or I will drop you, end of story. I guess option B would be to surround the guy and wait patiently until he fell asleep. Of course if Caledonia is any example as soon as a native shows his status card the OPP says “Oh well then” and drives off.
The vast majority of police officers are great people doing an increasingly dangerous, thankless job. If you don’t like the police call a homeless guy next time you are in trouble, that should work.
“I’m sorry, but if two officers can’t take a knife away from a skinny 17 year kid, its time for some new poice training.”
sg, you don’t know what the f– you’re talking about. You’re stupid.
Fortunately, not even in a very liberal city with a liberal mayor, etc., on the police board would your position be represented by more than a tiny fraction of the people.
You are THAT dumb.
I am completely fed up with losers looking for excuses to be blaming the police for doing their jobs. The cops have enough problems just doing the damned work. There are plenty of REAL problems in the Winnipeg Police and most other forces that are only distracted from by crap like this.
This story is just another pile of crap from the local media who probably think they can milk this like the Dumas case.
First of all …. the kid was in the wrong
Second…. His death was an accident
Third….. The press was there LOOKING for that money quote from the mother and I wouldn’t doubt for a second that they prompted her for it.
The way things go … this junior career criminal would have likely been done in by some of his peers and just become another anonymous statistic.