and then there is the BIG BOX effect.
118th Ave in Edmonton USED to be a thriving commercial area.
then came West Edmonton Mall.
thereafter the decline……..
“But Roy and Lorne – they weren’t just MLA’s, they were provincial premiers, and look what it got Riversdale. Decline. ”
but when they do spend money to make their neighbourhood better, you get people like yourself/Gormly/etc saying it’s an election ploy, as though they needed to spend the money to get elected. It’s also entirely unfair to blame them for the state of affairs, as Atchison has his role, as does Skelton/Harper. Or is it too hard for you to see how they all play a role…I mean, at least Calvert was trying to make things better with Station 20 West, all you have with Skelton is broken equalization promises.
When he announces a project one month before an assured election defeat, it’s an election ploy.
As I said, Riversdale got the government they deserve.
“conservative hate frenzy on the NDP”
I would humbly propose that there was a CCF hate-frenzy for Conservatives looong before the 1980s.
—————
“Or call it Rue de Skelton, because its a federal conservative riding.”
The thinking of those who complain to MPs about burned-out streetlights -> or those who don’t have a clue about Constitutional separation of powers.
“at least Calvert was trying to make things better with Station 20 West”
It was just a matter of time before someone exhumed this poor excuse for urban renewal. The more that the facts of this sordid debacle are dragged kicking and screaming into the light of day, the worse the entire scheme begins to smell … badly.
Stay tuned for more news. And, above all, follow the money.
Beardyscree and oxy – what are you doing to improve the neighborhood? A neighborhood is about the people, not the streetlights, the bars on the windows or the politicians who represent the area.
What are you doing in the tee pee to improve things for the children eating charity meals? What are you doing so they and their kids don’t have to rely on charity for the rest of their lives? What are you doing to make sure the kids go to Princess and other schools in the neighborhood and get a GOOD education so they can get jobs or start businesses and raise their families as a family? What are you doing to create a culture of intollerance of the behaviour of the bad behaving elements in that area. You who reside there must turn it around.
And the rest of us throwing stones shouldn’t mock the community or its residents. We should be pointing out the deficiencies, encouraging Beardyscree and oxy and others in the area to change for the better, holding back on the charity as it only breeds a culture of dependancy – and when the change starts then we can jump in and help if we are so disposed.
But this isn’t Atchison’s problem. It isn’t Romanow’s or Calvert’s problem. It isn’t Skelton’s problem. It is the community’s problem and as spokesmen for the community, Beardyscree and oxy – what are you doing about it?
“oxy – what are you doing about it?”
I volunteer. I volunteer for different groups in the community and surrounding areas (such as the CRU wellness centre which was formerly in Mount Royal West). In previous years I was involved in a direct action group known as food not bombs which operated out of the west side community clinic kitchen. I am involved in the solution, now I ask, are you? or are you just a stone thrower?
“holding back on the charity as it only breeds a culture of dependancy ”
I find it interesting you say that. I mean, considering the government will pull money away from a community centre (which would have held a grocery store, paying commercial rates to rent the space, and would encourage people to buy their own food instead of relying on charity), and put money in to food banks which will give hand outs. It’s just sort of..well..contrary to your belief in cutting charity.
Biff; “The more that the facts of this…” facts such as?
Trent; also, are you suggesting that child prostitutes don’t work hard enough? That question has been bugging me all day.
Socialism doesn’t work.
When you try it again, it still doesn’t work.
And when you finally put up pretty banners, the leaders are acknowledging that even they know it doesn’t work.
But the dumb people will always believe, don’t they?
Thanks Oxy – engaging in meaningful debate on how to fix it is where I can contribute. I hope that by focusing on the issue we can move forward.
I am afraid that the volunteering being done though well intention is not solving problems. It is only treating symptoms. That was my point. The kids still come for food even though volunteers have been volunteering for decades. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is often viewed as insane behaviour. Don’t get me wrong. The kids and those that can’t support themselves for reasons not of their own making do need support and help and the volunteering does help here.
But what is being done to deal with they causes and not the symptoms? Eliminating the causes is what will deal with the problem permanently. Are you or Beardyscree addressing those?
I truly feel sorry for the residents of that neighborhood. I truly feel sorry for the residents of many of our Native (and other) communities that are worse or not much better than that neighborhood. But I don’t think that what we are doing is working to improve things for them.
If you apply a medical analogy providing charity is applying triage and stopping the bleeding. At some time the underlying wound has to be dealt with or the patient will not recover. Similarly, the cause of the suffering that is being treated by the volunteering that is done has to be repaired.
And the cause isn’t something that happened in the 19th century. It isn’t something that happened in the 1960’s. The cause is something that is happening now. The good and the bad from the past that may have happened to us or an ancestor may shape or influence our behaviour now, but we have a choice of how to respond to that. We can choose to wail and whine and complain about the past and ask for more charity or we can take charge and fix the underlying causes. This won’t happen overnite and it won’t happen at all unless leaders in the community take ownership of this as an issue.
I applaud you for volunteering. I urge you to address the underlying causes.
owl: Remember; these pictures were taken in an area owned primarily by small businesses. This was the result of the market making a decision to leave this place dry. If anything, judging only by this area, it’s capitalism which doesn’t “work”. Of course saying that is unfair to capitalism, since although there are areas like this in saskatoon-riversdale, there are also other areas which may seem unfairly pleasant, too.
But refer to my first comment in this thread if you want to try something other than knee-jerk anti-socialist rhetoric.
“Thanks Oxy – engaging in meaningful debate on how to fix it is where I can contribute. I hope that by focusing on the issue we can move forward.”
–I agree on this. It’s certainly is much more useful to discuss the issue on why things are and seek solutions than to blame the NDP. I mean, the personal choices of a few are hardly the fault of a particular party, but I don’t expect that from most people on this site.
Anyway, I wish to address the comment about covering symptoms. For starters, the system is broken. Now, instead of blaming capitalism, (or as this site prefers, socialism) for leaving these people behind, I will suggest it has to do with multiple areas of interest. Thinking about community , for starters. Conservatives will demand that people become independent. That was what was happening with Station 20 West. The grocery store would provide a place to buy food instead of getting it handed out. The grocery store was independent and would support itself. A rally of 2500 people happened several weeks ago. That shows that the community cares about itself.
“deal with the problem permanently. Are you or Beardyscree addressing those?”
I am involved in the development of the inner city coop, to help people become independent. There is also importance in dealing with symptoms. I think of two kids who would come to me for soup. Studies show that children with nutritious food available do better in school than those without (damn reality and it’s left wing bias). By offering food to these kids, often dressed in what I would consider rags, they would perform better than had they not had had the opportunity to eat. Better marks and more attention paid in school will pay off the initial investment.
I am also reminded of one time I was playing basketball with a kid at CRU. We were talking about family life. He told me that if CRU did not exist, he’d be out selling dope with his brother. Instead, he was being active, in a community orientated project, being educated about the connections one must have with their community. I see these cases as treating the problem, not just a Bandaid solution.
“I truly feel sorry for the residents of that neighborhood. I truly feel sorry for the residents of many of our Native (and other) communities that are worse or not much better than that neighborhood.”
Don’t feel sorry, us Pleasant Hill residents do not need your sympathy, as we will deal with the issues with or without you. Provided that poverty exists everywhere (EVEN IN ALBERTA… Drayton Valley comes to mind considering it’s Meth problem), it does lead me to questions Kate’s connection with the world if she thinks 20th St. is the only place where it exists, and places the blame on Calvert/Romanow.
Thanks again oxy.
As I said, I agree that we must look after those who are unable to look after themselves. The kids must be fed, but if all we do is feed the kids we will end up with well nourished kids who drop out in high school. I hope you and/or your friends are also working on keeping them in school from the time they are kids, through the time they are teens and onto their young adulthood. I think involvement of people like you in the community recreation center will be a necessary part of this type of change, but I don’t think it will be sufficient. What happens to and for the kids after they reach working age? Who will be there to help them then?
I was intrigued by your comment about helping people to become independent. That is certainly part of the solution. When people can look after themselves within the system, they are not part of the problem. When they can help others as part of the community, they are part of the solution. I see that you are trying to be part of a solution. What are you doing to get more people within the community to be part of the solution?
I’m afraid that I can’t agree that the system is broken (capitalism or socialism or whateverism). It seems to work for the large majority of the people elsewhere in Saskatoon and Canada and the world. What is there about this area that makes it not work there? Could it be that the system is not followed in this area? If that is the case, could helping to get people to follow the system help the community turn around? This might mean being less tolerant of those people that do not subscribe to notions of community behaviour that are independance based. It might require the community to take corrective measures against such behaviours. The brother of the basketball playing kid comes to mind. His business is a poison in the community. His independance comes at a price the community should not accept. Does anyone in the community try to correct that behaviour?
Glad to hear that you don’t need my sympathy. But it was not extended only to you. It was also extended to the other residents of the community that are adversely affected by the decline, but who do not have the ability to rise to the occasion like you.
Keep up the good work. I think efforts like you are doing are underappreciated – but I hope that more is done that will address the root causes that I see as being very related to a large portion of the community’s lack of desire or ability to participate in a system that works everywhere else.
and then there is the BIG BOX effect.
118th Ave in Edmonton USED to be a thriving commercial area.
then came West Edmonton Mall.
thereafter the decline……..
“But Roy and Lorne – they weren’t just MLA’s, they were provincial premiers, and look what it got Riversdale. Decline. ”
but when they do spend money to make their neighbourhood better, you get people like yourself/Gormly/etc saying it’s an election ploy, as though they needed to spend the money to get elected. It’s also entirely unfair to blame them for the state of affairs, as Atchison has his role, as does Skelton/Harper. Or is it too hard for you to see how they all play a role…I mean, at least Calvert was trying to make things better with Station 20 West, all you have with Skelton is broken equalization promises.
When he announces a project one month before an assured election defeat, it’s an election ploy.
As I said, Riversdale got the government they deserve.
“conservative hate frenzy on the NDP”
I would humbly propose that there was a CCF hate-frenzy for Conservatives looong before the 1980s.
—————
“Or call it Rue de Skelton, because its a federal conservative riding.”
The thinking of those who complain to MPs about burned-out streetlights -> or those who don’t have a clue about Constitutional separation of powers.
“at least Calvert was trying to make things better with Station 20 West”
It was just a matter of time before someone exhumed this poor excuse for urban renewal. The more that the facts of this sordid debacle are dragged kicking and screaming into the light of day, the worse the entire scheme begins to smell … badly.
Stay tuned for more news. And, above all, follow the money.
Beardyscree and oxy – what are you doing to improve the neighborhood? A neighborhood is about the people, not the streetlights, the bars on the windows or the politicians who represent the area.
What are you doing in the tee pee to improve things for the children eating charity meals? What are you doing so they and their kids don’t have to rely on charity for the rest of their lives? What are you doing to make sure the kids go to Princess and other schools in the neighborhood and get a GOOD education so they can get jobs or start businesses and raise their families as a family? What are you doing to create a culture of intollerance of the behaviour of the bad behaving elements in that area. You who reside there must turn it around.
And the rest of us throwing stones shouldn’t mock the community or its residents. We should be pointing out the deficiencies, encouraging Beardyscree and oxy and others in the area to change for the better, holding back on the charity as it only breeds a culture of dependancy – and when the change starts then we can jump in and help if we are so disposed.
But this isn’t Atchison’s problem. It isn’t Romanow’s or Calvert’s problem. It isn’t Skelton’s problem. It is the community’s problem and as spokesmen for the community, Beardyscree and oxy – what are you doing about it?
“oxy – what are you doing about it?”
I volunteer. I volunteer for different groups in the community and surrounding areas (such as the CRU wellness centre which was formerly in Mount Royal West). In previous years I was involved in a direct action group known as food not bombs which operated out of the west side community clinic kitchen. I am involved in the solution, now I ask, are you? or are you just a stone thrower?
“holding back on the charity as it only breeds a culture of dependancy ”
I find it interesting you say that. I mean, considering the government will pull money away from a community centre (which would have held a grocery store, paying commercial rates to rent the space, and would encourage people to buy their own food instead of relying on charity), and put money in to food banks which will give hand outs. It’s just sort of..well..contrary to your belief in cutting charity.
Biff; “The more that the facts of this…”
facts such as?
Trent; also, are you suggesting that child prostitutes don’t work hard enough? That question has been bugging me all day.
Socialism doesn’t work.
When you try it again, it still doesn’t work.
And when you finally put up pretty banners, the leaders are acknowledging that even they know it doesn’t work.
But the dumb people will always believe, don’t they?
Thanks Oxy – engaging in meaningful debate on how to fix it is where I can contribute. I hope that by focusing on the issue we can move forward.
I am afraid that the volunteering being done though well intention is not solving problems. It is only treating symptoms. That was my point. The kids still come for food even though volunteers have been volunteering for decades. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is often viewed as insane behaviour. Don’t get me wrong. The kids and those that can’t support themselves for reasons not of their own making do need support and help and the volunteering does help here.
But what is being done to deal with they causes and not the symptoms? Eliminating the causes is what will deal with the problem permanently. Are you or Beardyscree addressing those?
I truly feel sorry for the residents of that neighborhood. I truly feel sorry for the residents of many of our Native (and other) communities that are worse or not much better than that neighborhood. But I don’t think that what we are doing is working to improve things for them.
If you apply a medical analogy providing charity is applying triage and stopping the bleeding. At some time the underlying wound has to be dealt with or the patient will not recover. Similarly, the cause of the suffering that is being treated by the volunteering that is done has to be repaired.
And the cause isn’t something that happened in the 19th century. It isn’t something that happened in the 1960’s. The cause is something that is happening now. The good and the bad from the past that may have happened to us or an ancestor may shape or influence our behaviour now, but we have a choice of how to respond to that. We can choose to wail and whine and complain about the past and ask for more charity or we can take charge and fix the underlying causes. This won’t happen overnite and it won’t happen at all unless leaders in the community take ownership of this as an issue.
I applaud you for volunteering. I urge you to address the underlying causes.
owl: Remember; these pictures were taken in an area owned primarily by small businesses. This was the result of the market making a decision to leave this place dry. If anything, judging only by this area, it’s capitalism which doesn’t “work”. Of course saying that is unfair to capitalism, since although there are areas like this in saskatoon-riversdale, there are also other areas which may seem unfairly pleasant, too.
But refer to my first comment in this thread if you want to try something other than knee-jerk anti-socialist rhetoric.
“Thanks Oxy – engaging in meaningful debate on how to fix it is where I can contribute. I hope that by focusing on the issue we can move forward.”
–I agree on this. It’s certainly is much more useful to discuss the issue on why things are and seek solutions than to blame the NDP. I mean, the personal choices of a few are hardly the fault of a particular party, but I don’t expect that from most people on this site.
Anyway, I wish to address the comment about covering symptoms. For starters, the system is broken. Now, instead of blaming capitalism, (or as this site prefers, socialism) for leaving these people behind, I will suggest it has to do with multiple areas of interest. Thinking about community , for starters. Conservatives will demand that people become independent. That was what was happening with Station 20 West. The grocery store would provide a place to buy food instead of getting it handed out. The grocery store was independent and would support itself. A rally of 2500 people happened several weeks ago. That shows that the community cares about itself.
“deal with the problem permanently. Are you or Beardyscree addressing those?”
I am involved in the development of the inner city coop, to help people become independent. There is also importance in dealing with symptoms. I think of two kids who would come to me for soup. Studies show that children with nutritious food available do better in school than those without (damn reality and it’s left wing bias). By offering food to these kids, often dressed in what I would consider rags, they would perform better than had they not had had the opportunity to eat. Better marks and more attention paid in school will pay off the initial investment.
I am also reminded of one time I was playing basketball with a kid at CRU. We were talking about family life. He told me that if CRU did not exist, he’d be out selling dope with his brother. Instead, he was being active, in a community orientated project, being educated about the connections one must have with their community. I see these cases as treating the problem, not just a Bandaid solution.
“I truly feel sorry for the residents of that neighborhood. I truly feel sorry for the residents of many of our Native (and other) communities that are worse or not much better than that neighborhood.”
Don’t feel sorry, us Pleasant Hill residents do not need your sympathy, as we will deal with the issues with or without you. Provided that poverty exists everywhere (EVEN IN ALBERTA… Drayton Valley comes to mind considering it’s Meth problem), it does lead me to questions Kate’s connection with the world if she thinks 20th St. is the only place where it exists, and places the blame on Calvert/Romanow.
Thanks again oxy.
As I said, I agree that we must look after those who are unable to look after themselves. The kids must be fed, but if all we do is feed the kids we will end up with well nourished kids who drop out in high school. I hope you and/or your friends are also working on keeping them in school from the time they are kids, through the time they are teens and onto their young adulthood. I think involvement of people like you in the community recreation center will be a necessary part of this type of change, but I don’t think it will be sufficient. What happens to and for the kids after they reach working age? Who will be there to help them then?
I was intrigued by your comment about helping people to become independent. That is certainly part of the solution. When people can look after themselves within the system, they are not part of the problem. When they can help others as part of the community, they are part of the solution. I see that you are trying to be part of a solution. What are you doing to get more people within the community to be part of the solution?
I’m afraid that I can’t agree that the system is broken (capitalism or socialism or whateverism). It seems to work for the large majority of the people elsewhere in Saskatoon and Canada and the world. What is there about this area that makes it not work there? Could it be that the system is not followed in this area? If that is the case, could helping to get people to follow the system help the community turn around? This might mean being less tolerant of those people that do not subscribe to notions of community behaviour that are independance based. It might require the community to take corrective measures against such behaviours. The brother of the basketball playing kid comes to mind. His business is a poison in the community. His independance comes at a price the community should not accept. Does anyone in the community try to correct that behaviour?
Glad to hear that you don’t need my sympathy. But it was not extended only to you. It was also extended to the other residents of the community that are adversely affected by the decline, but who do not have the ability to rise to the occasion like you.
Keep up the good work. I think efforts like you are doing are underappreciated – but I hope that more is done that will address the root causes that I see as being very related to a large portion of the community’s lack of desire or ability to participate in a system that works everywhere else.