I’m shocked – shocked – I tell you.
Update, from the comments – Kathy Shaidle recommends Mark Shea’s response to the media reports. “Exactly what Rome did *not* say is that the Catholic Church is the ‘only true Church’. Never mind. It makes a short headline for journalists who cannot be bothered to think.”
To, somewhat, get back to the main point: Whenever the media has to tackle religion, they mess up badly.
150 comments here, which have only just touched, ever so lightly, the differences, arguments, quibbles between Protestants and Catholics, let alone between believing Christians and secular humanists, who don’t even believe in the existence God, seeing as they are their own Gods…
I just wish the MSM would ask competent theologians, who can speak to the uninitiated (they exist), to cover religious issues, rather than smug, uninformed ignoramuses whose favourite indoor sport seems to be to loathe and despise the Roman Catholic Church.
If we can be defined by who our enemies are, then, given that the vast majority of the members of the mainstream media are militantly secular and vehemently against the Roman Catholic Church and its Vicar of Christ, the Pope, I say, “Bravo, Your Holiness Pope Benedict XVI!”. By all means continue to speak up boldly for the faith of Christ’s One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. “The servant is not greater than the Master.”
Jesus was crucified for the things He believed, preached, and taught. So, the MSM goes berzerk because the Pope defends the Catholic faith by repeating, essentially, what the RC Church has believed and stood for, for millennia? It’s a small price to pay for speaking the Truth in Love.
As for Protestant Christians protesting what the Vicar of Christ has to say: Haven’t Protestants been protesting the same things for many hundreds of years? We are called to be one, and I would just remind Protestants that the Protestant Churches has been splitting off from the main branch, and splintering, for as long, to the point where it’s difficult to detect any unity within the Protestant fold itself.
tomax7:
In the early years of Christianity, many adults were baptized because they were converted as adults. At the time there were no “cradle Christians” – children brought up in Christian homes. However, baptism was never limited to adults. In 1 Corinthians 1:13-17, Paul says he came to preach and not to baptize, but he admits to baptizing Crispus, Gaius and the household of Stephanus. One can assume that “household” would have meant wife, children and servants, ortherwise he would have just said “…and wife.” In Acts 16:33, Paul and Silas baptized the Phillipian jailer “…with all his family.” Again, one can assume that “family” meant wife and children. In Acts 2:38-39 “Peter said to them, ‘Each one of you must turn away from his sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven; and you will receive God’s gift, the Holy Spirit. For God’s promise was made to you and your children, and to all who are far away – all whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'” There is no reference in Scripture to children not being baptized until they were “accountable.”
‘been around the block’ – spoken as a true supporter of the Roman Catholic Church. Bwhahahahaha!
Maybe it hasn’t dawned on you that there exists ‘other’ people who can read the Bible and believe something other than yourself and your Church. I enjoy a lively discussion; I’ve learned things about the Roman Catholic Church that I did not know before, and although, I do not believe the same, I find knowledge more rewarding than ignorance. You do know “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth,” St. Matthew 5:5 – do you not?
I’ve always known how the Roman Catholic Church has felt about itself; it probably isn’t news to anyone. I believe those who denounce Christ are lost souls, but I don’t pronounce them because it certainly is not my desire for any souls to be lost, nor is it my desire to pronounce a judgment not within a power I possess or bestowed upon me – Christ is our judge, and none other. The Pope is full of himself….straight up; this is as polite as it gets.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2056515.ece
Just read this link above, and tell me if you don’t feel a wave of superiority complex coming on.
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by me.” John 14:6.
Tell me if I am wrong, but I don’t see any mention of the Pope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation
….and the Muslims think they had it bad with the Catholics Crusades…..
Okay enough fun already, …….
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Dr%20John%20Rice/Baptism/b_05.htm
Iberia – this site has a very short read to denounce what you say….good luck. There is no reference in Scripture to children being baptized. Children are not lost souls if they are not baptized before death; I certainly do hope Catholics believe this to be so.
okay, out of here already….can’t help myself….back to the rest of the roadkill posts…
batb: “150 comments here, which have only just touched, ever so lightly, the differences, arguments, quibbles between Protestants and Catholic”
What?!? Don’t take this personally but can’t see the forest for the trees?
lberia: “At the time there were no ‘cradle Christians’ – children brought up in Christian homes.”
Now if this isn’t twisted logic, certainly there was, how about all the families coming to Christ? Not one of them had a baby or was having a baby?
Wow, talk about a low birth rate.
The whole point is, the Bible does not speak about infant baptism wiping away sins, or becoming part of a “universal church”, but as a sign of a clear conscious to God, which entails by reason someone has to make a ‘conscious’ decision, or age of reasoning – debatable around 5 years old.
Yes, go a head and say it – or older determined by some posters on here…
tomax7:
By cradle Christians I meant families that were already Christian and then afterwards had children and baptised them because of tradition. Scripture does not speak infant baptism nor does it stipulate that it has to be a conscious decision or done at the age of reason. I gave examples where baptism included “all” of the family. Nothing about “age of reason.” I’ll concede that this is a point which can be argued either way because there is no definitive explanation, but RCs believe that everyone is entitled to baptism.
Next question then liberia…what is meant by the word immersion, i mean baptism?
Not really keen on drowning babies…
I’m a cradle “Protestant.” ‘Just got tired of protesting. What? I knew not.
Now that I know, I have been led by the Spirit to stop protesting. ‘Nothing left to protest, but much to gain from the fulness of the faith as handed to the first Christians and passed down in the Roman Catholic Church. Before the Reformation, Western Christians were Catholic.
Anyone who has quibbles with the Catholic Church might be interested in reading Alex Jones’ “No Price Too High: A Pentecostal Preacher Becomes Catholic” (Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2006).
From the dust jacket: “Alex Jones was an ‘on-fire’ Pentecostal minister in Detroit and a very dedicated shepherd of his flock. In seeking to give his congregation the most genuine experience of the early Church prayer and worship services, he carefully read Scripture, the Fathers of the Church and writings of the early saints. The more he read and researched, the more Alex came to the startling conclusion that the present day Catholic Church (and the Holy Mass) is the same Church with the same ‘worship service’ as the early Church.”
Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the Christian Church, and belief in Him as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity is the central tenet of the Roman Catholic Church. Where people get the idea that Catholics don’t believe in Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life, I don’t know. The fullness of the Christian faith is to be found in the RC Church, notwithstanding the protesting of the Reformation, which continues to this day.
The comments of tomax7 and his/her ilk remind me of people who comment upon astrophysics when there is an announcement of some development in the field. Such people do so with little or no knowledge or real interest in the field though they somehow believe themselves to be affected because they live in the universe.
Many commentators with little or no knowledge of the subject hear about the recent measured and thoughtful response to questions by Cardinal Levada endorsed by Pope Benedict and think themselves to be affected or wish to make themselves heard on the subject.
Why should we listen to people who know nothing of the subject and simply want to grind axes of various shapes.
Unlike most commentators on this blog, however, I have taken time to read the statement released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
I am not a Roman Catholic.
The statement does not deny that others who are baptized in various communities apart from the Catholic Church are Christians; it affirms what is good in the Orthodox Church and other eccelsial communities of Christians. The statement commends the many good qualities of those not in communion with Rome.
What the statement does not do is what many Protestants and the secular media do: Heap scorn and ridicule upon the leader of a group to which they do not belong, namely the largest group of believers in the world, the Catholic Church.
The statement does not imply that God rejects anyone who is not a Catholic.
The statement simply, eloquently and clearly states that Jesus established one Church which is his body in this world — he is truly present to all who seek him and nourishes all who seek to be in communion with the successor of his appointed vicar, Peter, to whom he said (and this is found in the KJV and all Protestant bibles) “You are Peter (rock) and upon this rock I will build my Church (not churches) and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
It appears that the gates of hell are still in tact and there are a number of them. I do not say that they are defended by any particular groups, but there are many spokesmen in the media for those gates and, if counting matters, they are not prevailing. Catholics are still the majority of Christians and the various groups which are constantly fracturing (sadly noting Anglicans at the moment) are in imperfect communion with the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. Note, not rejected, not unwanted, but by their own multiple and multiplying choices not one.
The pope insists that God loves everyone and wishes us to be in communion. He desires that baptized Christians be in communion with the Church. In a world full of hatred is that so bad?
BTW there is plenty of room for discussion in the Catholic Church and much variety — ask the Maronite Catholics, the Melkite Catholics, the Ukranian Catholic priests and their wives — yes they are Catholics in communion with the Pope who are married priests — check it out. Ask the Anglican Use Catholic priests, wives and children etc, etc.
So, inform yourselves before you go off on bigotted tirade against one of the best educated and most refined men in Europe; or at least have the decency to read what he endorses for yourselves.
Thanks to batb and others who have sought to cut through the fog and let the voice of the servant of the servants of God be heard in his own voice, calling us to unity in the one Church of the one Christ, God’s greatest gift to humanity.
Benedictus Deus.
The comments of tomax7 and his/her ilk remind me of people who comment upon astrophysics when there is an announcement of some development in the field. Such people do so with little or no knowledge or real interest in the field though they somehow believe themselves to be affected because they live in the universe.
Many commentators with little or no knowledge of the subject hear about the recent measured and thoughtful response to questions by Cardinal Levada endorsed by Pope Benedict and think themselves to be affected or wish to make themselves heard on the subject.
Why should we listen to people who know nothing of the subject and simply want to grind axes of various shapes.
Unlike most commentators on this blog, however, I have taken time to read the statement released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
I am not a Roman Catholic.
The statement does not deny that others who are baptized in various communities apart from the Catholic Church are Christians; it affirms what is good in the Orthodox Church and other eccelsial communities of Christians. The statement commends the many good qualities of those not in communion with Rome.
What the statement does not do is what many Protestants and the secular media do: Heap scorn and ridicule upon the leader of a group to which they do not belong, namely the largest group of believers in the world, the Catholic Church.
The statement does not imply that God rejects anyone who is not a Catholic.
The statement simply, eloquently and clearly states that Jesus established one Church which is his body in this world — he is truly present to all who seek him and nourishes all who seek to be in communion with the successor of his appointed vicar, Peter, to whom he said (and this is found in the KJV and all Protestant bibles) “You are Peter (rock) and upon this rock I will build my Church (not churches) and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
It appears that the gates of hell are still in tact and there are a number of them. I do not say that they are defended by any particular groups, but there are many spokesmen in the media for those gates and, if counting matters, they are not prevailing. Catholics are still the majority of Christians and the various groups which are constantly fracturing (sadly noting Anglicans at the moment) are in imperfect communion with the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. Note, not rejected, not unwanted, but by their own multiple and multiplying choices not one.
The pope insists that God loves everyone and wishes us to be in communion. He desires that baptized Christians be in communion with the Church. In a world full of hatred is that so bad?
BTW there is plenty of room for discussion in the Catholic Church and much variety — ask the Maronite Catholics, the Melkite Catholics, the Ukranian Catholic priests and their wives — yes they are Catholics in communion with the Pope who are married priests — check it out. Ask the Anglican Use Catholic priests, wives and children etc, etc.
So, inform yourselves before you go off on bigotted tirade against one of the best educated and most refined men in Europe; or at least have the decency to read what he endorses for yourselves.
Thanks to batb and others who have sought to cut through the fog and let the voice of the servant of the servants of God be heard in his own voice, calling us to unity in the one Church of the one Christ, God’s greatest gift to humanity.
Benedictus Deus.
Tomax7:
The word Baptism is derived from the Greek word, bapto, or baptizo, to wash or to immerse. Catholics believe that total immersion is not necessary when performing a baptism (though immersion was performed in the early church). The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water; and it is indifferent whether it be cold or hot. The form is: I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Joanne:
Further to what batb wrote, and contrary to what you seem to think, the Pope is not considered a substitute or an equal of Christ by R. Catholics. He is simply a man who is the head priest.
R. Catholics do not worship Mary nor is she considered Christ’s equal or co-redeemer.
R. Catholics do not believe that works alone lead to salvation but that faith plus works are necessary.
R. Catholics are not prevented from reading the bible.
Many misconceptions exist about the role of the Pope or the Church in the Inquisition or the Reformation, or even the recent sex abuse scandals. It’s up to you to have an open mind when looking into these matters. The Catholic Church is not perfect because it is run by humans. We can only expect perfection from God.
Perebaby: “The comments of tomax7 and his/her ilk…”
– Psst, I’m a he. It’s not really hard to check, click on my links at the end of each posting, but then again astrophysicists like you don’t bother right? Seeing you don’t bother with such trivial things I suppose the rest of your drivel isn’t worth remarking on.
lberia: The form is: I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
– Or in the name of Jesus?
– If it wasn’t important whether you got sprinkled or immersed, well that begs another question.
Seeing in the Middle East water is one of the most precious commodity, as well there isn’t a lake or river all over the place, then sprinkling would be the reasoning to do. I don’t see that anywhere in the Bible. From John baptizing John to Philip and the eunuch they all were immersed.
Oh guess one could argue they were only in knee deep, which leads back to the reasoning of why.
…I meant John baptizing Jesus, just in case backyard astrophysicists get warped out shape
…not you lberia, sorry, forgot to break the line.
tomax7
Thanks for your reaffirmation of your ‘y’ chromosome and other thoughts from “the gates”.
On the matter of drivel, you didn’t answer the question — Did you actually read what the Pope endorsed before commenting?
From your comments the obvious answer to that qestion would define for us which comments amount to “drivel”.
Peregrinus – ok, are we done with the mud slinging?
Did I actually read what the Pope endorsed? Depends on what source are you talking about.
Are you talking about this one?
http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/20586.php?index=20586&lang=en#TESTO%20IN%20LINGUA%20INGLESE
Second Question: What is the meaning of the affirmation that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church?
Response: Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”5, that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted.6 “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic [�]. This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”7.
In number 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium �subsistence� means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church8, in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth.
It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.9 Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.10
Third Question: Why was the expression “subsists in” adopted instead of the simple word “is”?
Response: The use of this expression, which indicates the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church, does not change the doctrine on the Church. Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are “numerous elements of sanctification and of truth” which are found outside her structure, but which “as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity”11.
“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”12.
Did I read it?…i think the answer is yes. Did I read the Latin part? No, but I feel this is right:
In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni*
…here’s a few questions I never seem to get an answer for.
1. Why do we need to pray/ask Mary for help?
2. Where does it tell us to do this in the Bible?
4. I mean, why not just go directly to Jesus? It’s like in the States we always go to Mrs. Bush Sr. to ask the President for help.
5. If Peter is the founder or first pope of the church, why not pray to him? If anything he knows about screwing up, buckling under pressure.
6. If he was in charge, why did Paul always go to James instead when he needed council on church activities?
7. Why is there more Hail Mary’s on a rosary than Our Fathers?
8. What do we actually ask for in the Hail Mary?
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. ”
– Hey I’m not dying, so why pray to her then?
– Didn’t Jesus say ask anything in His name?
– Wasn’t Jesus suppose to be our intercessor, our high priest?
– Isn’t God suppose to be full of Grace?
9. Why don’t we ask Joseph, Jesus’ father then?
10. How come there are more statues of Mary around than say of Jesus, Paul, James or even Peter?
…here’s a few questions I never seem to get an answer for.
1. Why do we need to pray/ask Mary for help? …
A – The same reason that one would ask any other person to pray. We believe that Mary (Theotokos -the one who bore the incarnate Son into the world — according to the early Christians) is alive and cares for her brothers and sisters, sons and daughters. Wouldn’t one ask our mother to pray for us. BTW let’s not get into the argument about praying “to” Mary. The teaching of the Church is clear: We ask Mary to pray for us to God who is the source of all, through her son, our Lord (the incarnate One). In traditional language`: `Ì pray you` means `I ask you`. This is purely an English language problem. The teaching is clear, we can ask other people to pray for us whether they are alive on earth or more alive in heaven. Yes, we believe that Blessed Mary is in heaven … as the bilble says `All generations shall call you blessed.`
If you call someone blessed in this generation, in the present tense, then it would seem that you could ask for their prayers since they are even more alive to God in heaven than we are on earth. I know Prots have a problem with who is in heaven and when — used to be one.
2. Where does it tell us to do this in the Bible?
(see above)
4. I mean, why not just go directly to Jesus?
It’s like in the States we always go to Mrs. Bush Sr. to ask the President for help.
A – If a martyr or holy person had died and gone to God why should we think they would stop praying for us.
4. Why do we ask other people to pray for us
A – Its about communion (fellowship as the Southern Baptist brothers like to say). We believe in the communion of saints — something that Christians have said and believed since the very earliest days. People in communion pray for each other.
5. If Peter is the founder or first pope of the church, why not pray to him? If anything he knows about screwing up, buckling under pressure.
Again, we ask his prayers, like everyone else — we do not pray to him as we pray to God. Check the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it is quite clear. We ask all Christians living and dead to pray for us. I even ask fundamentalists to pray for me . . . if they will stop jumping to conclusions and allow that I might be a Christian along with more thatn 1 billion Catholics, 500 million Orthodox, the Churches of the East and various others — even Anglican. So, what`s the big big problem anyway.
6. If he was in charge, why did Paul always go to James instead when he needed council on church activities?
This is a question of the development of doctrine — you will have to read John Henry Newman (a former Anglican) on that. Simply put, we believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church, the Body of Christ through time and, despite human failings — Peter`s, Paul`s and James`as well as yours and mine — the Church will not fall into final error (I know the misinterpretation of `ìnfallibity` is another
hurdle). Peter was chosen by Jesus, not James and, in time it became clear by the leading of the Holy Spirit that the bishops united with Peter`s successor have been chosen to maintain the faith “once delivered to the saints“. Infallibility does not mean that the Pope thinks he`s perfect. It means that the Holy Spirit working through the bishops and Peter will not allow the Church to fall into final error. So Peter and his successor remain the go to person for many reasons — principally because the early church quickly saw that the successorés to James were not. We believe in the Holy Spirit guiding people in the past as much as in the present — the democracy of the dead as Chesterton has said — they have voted for Peter. BTW Paul ended up consulting with Peter in Rome and the two are buried side by side and commemorated on the same day in June on the calendar of the Church for centuries — go figure.
7. Why is there more Hail Mary’s on a rosary than Our Fathers?
A – There is actually a lot more of the bible on the rosary than any prayers. The rosary is simply a way of contemplating the divine mysteries of Jesus` life, some of which include, who, Blessed Mary. The focus of the rosary is the salvation brought to the world by Jesus, and the bible tells us, in all generations to call Mary Blessed, so we do just that in the rosary and other places as a sign of our thankfulness for her Son. You love the son, you love the mother — a problem.
8. What do we actually ask for in the Hail Mary?
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. ”
– Hey I’m not dying, so why pray to her then? —
A – The words to Mary are — pray for us — we are not praying TO Mary. Could it be clearer. You are dying… each day and at the hour of death I sure want Mary and everyone else praying for me. If you want to do it on your own, that`s your call.
– Didn’t Jesus say ask anything in His name?
A – I guess I would say that, amongst other things he prayed “that they all may be one“ — that would get us back to the point of this thread — the ONE CHURCH of Jesus Christ.
– Wasn’t Jesus suppose to be our intercessor, our high priest?
A – He is and the Catechism of the Catholic Church is perfectly clear on that. However, Christians believe that they can pray for others and ask their prayers. I`ll take Mary and the saints praying for me. Thanks.
– Isn’t God suppose to be full of Grace?
Exactly, that`s why in his generosity God fills Mary and others with grace in varying degrees.
9. Why don’t we ask Joseph, Jesus’ father then?
A – We do — check out the Litany of the Saints. `Holy Joseph, pray for us`. — again we don`t pray to him in the sense that we PRAY TO GOD. We ask his prayers.
10. How come there are more statues of Mary around than say of Jesus, Paul, James or even Peter?
A – Mary is, by the belief of at least 80% of all Christians considered to be the Mother of Christians (Vatican II). In many homes you find more pictures of Mom than of the kids
— so is that a problem. I grant you some people have trouble with their mothers. Christians shouldn`t.
…here’s a few questions I never seem to get an answer for.
1. Why do we need to pray/ask Mary for help? …
A – The same reason that one would ask any other person to pray. We believe that Mary (Theotokos -the one who bore the incarnate Son into the world — according to the early Christians) is alive and cares for her brothers and sisters, sons and daughters. Wouldn’t one ask our mother to pray for us. BTW let’s not get into the argument about praying “to” Mary. The teaching of the Church is clear: We ask Mary to pray for us to God who is the source of all, through her son, our Lord (the incarnate One). In traditional language`: `Ì pray you` means `I ask you`. This is purely an English language problem. The teaching is clear, we can ask other people to pray for us whether they are alive on earth or more alive in heaven. Yes, we believe that Blessed Mary is in heaven … as the bilble says `All generations shall call you blessed.`
If you call someone blessed in this generation, in the present tense, then it would seem that you could ask for their prayers since they are even more alive to God in heaven than we are on earth. I know Prots have a problem with who is in heaven and when — used to be one.
2. Where does it tell us to do this in the Bible?
(see above)
4. I mean, why not just go directly to Jesus?
It’s like in the States we always go to Mrs. Bush Sr. to ask the President for help.
A – If a martyr or holy person had died and gone to God why should we think they would stop praying for us.
Why do we ask other people to pray for us . . . Its about communion (fellowship as the Southern Baptist brothers like to say). We believe in the communion of saints — something that Christians have said and believed since the very earliest days. People in communion pray for each other.
5. If Peter is the founder or first pope of the church, why not pray to him? If anything he knows about screwing up, buckling under pressure.
A – Again, we ask his prayers, like everyone else — we do not pray to him as we pray to God. Check the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it is quite clear. We ask all Christians living and dead to pray for us. I even ask fundamentalists to pray for me . . . if they will stop jumping to conclusions and allow that I might be a Christian along with more thatn 1 billion Catholics, 500 million Orthodox, the Churches of the East and various others — even Anglican. So, what`s the big big problem anyway.
6. If he was in charge, why did Paul always go to James instead when he needed council on church activities?
A – This is a question of the development of doctrine — you will have to read John Henry Newman (a former Anglican) on that. Simply put, we believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church, the Body of Christ through time and, despite human failings — Peter`s, Paul`s and James`as well as yours and mine — the Church will not fall into final error (I know the misinterpretation of `ìnfallibity` is another
hurdle). Peter was chosen by Jesus, not James and, in time it became clear by the leading of the Holy Spirit that the bishops united with Peter`s successor have been chosen to maintain the faith “once delivered to the saints“. Infallibility does not mean that the Pope thinks he`s perfect. It means that the Holy Spirit working through the bishops and Peter will not allow the Church to fall into final error. So Peter and his successor remain the go to person for many reasons — principally because the early church quickly saw that the successorés to James were not. We believe in the Holy Spirit guiding people in the past as much as in the present — the democracy of the dead as Chesterton has said — they have voted for Peter. BTW Paul ended up consulting with Peter in Rome and the two are buried side by side and commemorated on the same day in June on the calendar of the Church for centuries — go figure.
7. Why is there more Hail Mary’s on a rosary than Our Fathers?
A – There is actually a lot more of the bible on the rosary than any prayers. The rosary is simply a way of contemplating the divine mysteries of Jesus` life, some of which include, who, Blessed Mary. The focus of the rosary is the salvation brought to the world by Jesus, and the bible tells us, in all generations to call Mary Blessed, so we do just that in the rosary and other places as a sign of our thankfulness for her Son. You love the son, you love the mother — a problem.
8. What do we actually ask for in the Hail Mary?
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. ”
– Hey I’m not dying, so why pray to her then? —
A – The words to Mary are — pray for us — we are not praying TO Mary. Could it be clearer. You are dying… each day and at the hour of death I sure want Mary and everyone else praying for me. If you want to do it on your own, that`s your call.
– Didn’t Jesus say ask anything in His name?
A – I guess I would say that, amongst other things he prayed “that they all may be one“ — that would get us back to the point of this thread — the ONE CHURCH of Jesus Christ.
– Wasn’t Jesus suppose to be our intercessor, our high priest?
A – He is and the Catechism of the Catholic Church is perfectly clear on that. However, Christians believe that they can pray for others and ask their prayers. I`ll take Mary and the saints praying for me. Thanks.
– Isn’t God suppose to be full of Grace?
Exactly, that`s why in his generosity God fills Mary and others with grace in varying degrees.
9. Why don’t we ask Joseph, Jesus’ father then?
A – We do — check out the Litany of the Saints. `Holy Joseph, pray for us`. — again we don`t pray to him in the sense that we PRAY TO GOD. We ask his prayers.
10. How come there are more statues of Mary around than say of Jesus, Paul, James or even Peter?
A – Mary is, by the belief of at least 80% of all Christians considered to be the Mother of Christians (Vatican II). In many homes you find more pictures of Mom than of the kids
— so is that a problem. I grant you some people have trouble with their mothers. Christians shouldn`t.
‘Good questions, Tomax7; ‘good answers, Perigrinus.
The asking of these questions on the part of Protestants is legitimate and healthy. These were questions I asked all the time though, I have to admit, I wasn’t really looking for answers. I had put the RC Church in a box and was happy to leave it there. Then, the Holy Spirit led me to a loving, caring, and prophetic RC Community, where I discovered that many of my concerns were groundless and, in fact, erroneous.
As for there being more statues of Mary in RC churches, rather than…of Jesus, Paul, James or even Peter: I have not noticed more statues of Mary than of Jesus. In fact, where there are statues of Mary, there are crucifixes, front and centre (usually in the Sanctuary), and countless stained glass depictions of the events in Jesus’ life. In most Catholic churches, you will find 12 Stations of the Cross, all with Jesus depicted in the last hours of his life, His Passion. In total.
As for why there is such honour shown to Mary (rather than Paul, James, or Peter, for instance): as Peregrinus points out, Scripture says about Mary “blessed art thou among women” and “all generations shall call [her] blessed.”
When the disciples were arguing which among them was the greatest and who would sit at the right hand of Jesus, Jesus pointed out that it was those who are servants, one of another, who will have honour in His Kingdom. In her Song of Praise (The Magnificat), she says of herself, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked with favour on the lowliness of his servant…”
Mary, first and foremost, was a servant of the Lord. She humbled herself to take on the most difficult role of any human being: that of being bearer and mother of God. She said “yes,” despite all of the obstacles. Scripture makes it quite clear that Jesus listened to her (at the Wedding of Cana), in a way that He did not listen to Peter, Paul, or James.
Last, on the cross, where Jesus actually said very little, but every word is significant, his words to John, representing all Christians from that moment forward, were: “Here is your mother.” If Jesus is our brother, and it’s clear that Mary is His mother, then why would she not be our mother, too, just as God is Jesus’ Father, making Him our Father, too?
…thank you for the reply, but permit me to ask one more question:
Q. Why don’t we go directly to God, I mean directly petition God for our needs?
I’m not saying don’t ever ask someone to pray with/for you, but come on, take some responsibility and go directly to God yourself.
Hebrews 10:19-27
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the Blood of Jesus…(read the whole passage if you want)
I mean, why was Jesus born in the first place?
Just to die for our sins? What about the stripes on His back? The Blood He shed? Beard plucked from His face, His friends turning on Him?
If it was just to die, then an arrow to the heart would have done it, and quite symbolically.
He came to RESTORE fellowship, the relationship between God in Heaven and us. His death paid the price for our sins and our falling away from grace.
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 9:1-12
“But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands…
Colossians 1:20-23
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
*Just a footnote on the ‘Hail Mary’ prayer.
Mary may be full of grace, but she isn’t the Source of grace.
So, again, why not just go directly to the Source?
It is really a simple concept.
Really.
Ask Jesus directly today. He’s never too busy. Oh, and He is Omnipresent, not like Mary.
Q. Why don’t we go directly to God, I mean directly petition God for our needs?
A – That is precisely what the Holy Eucharist is and yet even more, it is the incarnated Christ present with us in his mystical body. But it isn’t just ‘Jesus and me’ because Christ is present supremely in the community which he gave and gives his life to. There is nothing more direct that communion with him along with others who are part of his body in the Eucharist. As you say prayer is good with others and for others, but nothing like going to the source — the Incarnate Lord. The great thing for Catholics is that this is not individualistic we go to God directly in and through Jesus but in the communion of all the saints past and present.
Hebrews 10:19-27
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the Blood of Jesus…
A – What is this other than the Holy Eucharist where Jesus promises to be truly and really present: “This is my body … my blood . . . given for you (collective) do this for the making present of me (anamnesis — the Greek meaning to make present what has already been, not simply a memorial)”. So this is precisely what we do when we respond to the Word.
I mean, why was Jesus born in the first place?
…. He came to RESTORE fellowship, the relationship between God in Heaven and us. His death paid the price for our sins and our falling away from grace.
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 9:1-12
“But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands…
Colossians 1:20-23
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
A – Once again, I couldn’t agree more. The high priest is Christ, truly present when the Eucharistic community gathers – the true fellowship of the one body, Christ’s Church gathered with one intention and sharing in the one sacred meal which is synonymous with the one perfect and complete sacrifice of Christ, once offered and made present again by the Word in the Sacrament – the really truly present Christ. That’s fellowship in time and beyond time!
*Just a footnote on the ‘Hail Mary’ prayer.
Mary may be full of grace, but she isn’t the Source of grace.
So, again, why not just go directly to the Source?
It is really a simple concept.
A – I agree, it is the simplest concept, that of the community gathered with the crucified and risen Lord as he commanded and in the way he commanded.
” I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” John 6: 51
That’s not symbolically or psychologically or in a memorial but “really” with gathered real people in a real community of faith and with the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, with others praying for us and around us and beyond us — give me that old time religion, it’s good enough for me.
Really.
Ask Jesus directly today. He’s never too busy.
A – And he is present to his whole community at Mass every day (and numerous times on Sunday) not just for “you in your small cornmer and I in mine” but for everyone, all the time and together — blessed assurance Jesus is OURS.
Oh, and He is Omnipresent, not like Mary.
A – I agree God is omnipresent and so offers himself to us in Christ, the incarnate Lord. We need, however, to respond with the “yes” of Blessed Mary –“Be it unto me according to your Word”. She is the very model of faith and the first Christian and Mother of all Christians – may all generations call her blessed and emulate her faith and share with her in prayer through the one eternal Christ, the Lord.
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us and we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full or grace and truth.” John 1: 14
Well said batb!
Though not a Roman Catholic, I consider this approach to the historic faith to be much more consistent with the practice of faith than the highly individualistic approach of the fractured and multiple approaches of Protestants. They seem to have such a problem with one Pope articulting the common faith of the one Church of Christ.
Yet the alternative to having one spokesman for the bishops in communion is to have everyone act as his own pope — hence an unintelligible cacaphony of voices each interpreting the bible and tradition (yes, even those who deny it rely upon their own interpretations and traditions).
For one, I am increasingly moved to listen to the reasonable, thoughtful and prayerful voice of the gifted occupant of the Chair of Peter. This is the kind of rock we need to face down secularism and Islamofascism.
Pax vobiscum.
Well, I don’t believe Mary is alive, I believe she is asleep, and I don’t believe she would have any ability in death to answer anyone’s prayers. Jesus is going to return to earth and raise the dead in Christ first; it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to raise the dead in Christ if they are with him in heaven, why doesn’t he just bring them. rhetorical question
There is plenty of scripture to back what I wrote, and I’m just thankful the word of God has been translated in many languages so that each one of us can read and be enlightened, without having to believe that only one mortal knows best.
I believe the Roman Catholic Church and its followers have traditions and practices so strongly intertwined with the word of God, that they can’t even recognize the difference.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
The Catholic church is losing folowers as we speak. Separate Schools take anybody now not just catholics. It’s a tax grab. Like all religions it is a crock. You might as well worship the sun.
Brilliant comment, archie.
I do worship the son. ‘You’ve got a spelling problem?